Adios Tariq

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This (Owens might leave) hit like a brick. Licking our wounds over a roller coaster and disappointing season, primed to move on with the core 4, a cadre of transfers, committed recruits, targeting a big guy, thinking ‘great, can’t wait until next year when we’ll have depth’...and Tariq does a fade-away.
This year’s woes was due primarily to LoVett’s Houdini-like exit at the very start of the BEC season. The team, with little depth to begin with had to regroup, and—although staying in all but a few games—looked out of sync on offense and defense.
LoVett, in addition to being our 2nd leading scorer, set up our offense, and disrupted other teams offensive flows more than any other player.
We lost LoVett and Tariq because of who they are and who their dad’s are—a bit delusional and dreaming of NBA $$$$$$’s.
We recruit those type of guys because we have to, because our program has been scraping along the bottom for most of the past 20 years, and those are the guys we reach out to in our desperation to rebuild and revive our tradition.
We have to move beyond those guys, and get solid 3*/4* who want to be here.
I think the Staff has been planning that very strategy. Roberts, Williams, and Earlington are the beginning, and it could come to fruition with the ‘18-‘19 Class that Matt and CM and the Staff have been cultivating for the past 2 years.
Have faith.
We’ll get there.[/quote]


Just noticed your post Chicago Days - we’ll stated!
So many posts are repetitious or old news but there’s truth in them:
CM inherited nothing
CM wants to win it’s in his DNA
CM came here to succeed and either he’s flopping over his head or - among other possibilities - he needs more time. This coming April 2018, one month away will only constitute three “measly” CM was on the job. Starting from A ball and some here want us to be at AAA ball already or, God forbid, Division 1 right up there with other small Catholic non- football schools.
Disappointing for sure. Frustrating as the girl in Willy Wonka whined: I want it now!!!
We need time and it’s uncertain and unpleasant because we do not really know what will transpire.
But I like your take in your last paragraph -
Have faith, we’ll get there.
Thanks to all who help me keep the faith :cheer:
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=276869][quote="Paultzman" post=276861]Addicted to this team since my dad took me to see Tony Jackson led Johnny team. That said rooting for SJU is like operating a jackhammer on the LIE in August.[/quote][/quote]

Under the circumstances you described, I think you are eligible for Social Security disability due to both physical and psychological reasons -throw in pain and suffering. lol
And yet you keep the faith, what else is there to do hmmm
 
[quote="MJDinkins" post=277291][quote="SJU14" post=277289][quote="fun" post=277285][quote="Mike Zaun" post=277280]Jay Wright goes out and gets 3 star kids who did not get scouted much and by the time they are seniors (usually sooner), they are absolute studs. [/quote]

Nova recruiting since 2011

5-star recruits: 2
4-star recruits: 11
3-star recruits: 3
2-star recruit: 1



2011

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2012

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2013

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2014

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2015

*****
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2016

*****
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2017

****
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**[/quote]

And to add to this, it's not just about the rating out of HS. It's about fitting the system. Just look at Donte DiVincenzo, a 3/4 star top 200 player (similar to Greg Williams). He is a player that fits the Villanova system perfectly and is going to blow up next season when Nova loses Brunson. And then next season and the year after that watch for Collin Gillespie to blow up (3 star top 300). You pair that with the occasional 5 star and you have a top 5 team year after year.[/quote]

DiVincenzo was rated no lower than than #124 per Rivals (#120) and 247 Sports (#124)..... The two best recruiting sites. Gillespie was #200 per 247. Spellman is also a top 20 recruit.

I've seen fans on this board and a few others who believe Wright is primarily doing damage with 3-star recruits. I've long stated it's a huge misnomer.

He might not get the recruits like your typical blue-blood, but he lands a bunch of 4-star kids. They tend to vary from high-rated to low-rated 4-stars, but a 4-star, nonetheless.

He and his staff does coach 'em up, as evident from watching how they play. But, he isn't nor hasn't been doing this with a load of 3-star kids.[/quote]

I agree Dink.
Nova does it with 4 star kids. Very rarely gets the 5 star because Jay Wright and Nova don't cheat imo.
One thing is fairly certain though and that is that Mullin will never ever do it with mostly 3 star players. Especially since none appear to progress to their junior year. He needs mostly 4 star in the Nova model but with 2 and 3 star bench players that will tend to stay 4 years. Going after Mussini and Freudenberg was a complete waste of time. Going after coaches sons is risky. The best Juco recruit is a safer bet but until Matt Abdelmassih can bring in two 4 star prep kids every year without losing them the following year, his record will be mediocre at best. Mitch Richmond should have mastered recruiting 101 but I don't see Mullin using his name recognition to our benefit in that regard. To me, it is Mullin’s poor staff management that is holding up the program's improvement. Not only with the Slice fiasco but with his stubbornness to make staff changes. Even Steve Lavin recognized the need for a coach Whitesell who, by the way, is now the associate head coach at Buffalo. Yes the same Buffalo that sent Arizona packing and is made up of 3 and 2 star kids.
 
FWIW....Nova, as you know, signed 5 star Javon Quinerly from Hudson Catholic last month.

They are very much in the hunt for 5 star Bryan Antoine (2019) of the Ranney School in NJ.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=277280][quote="ghostzapper" post=277269]The transfer culture in college basketball is fully in place and is as strong as it has ever been. We have greatly benefited from that culture with the additions of Tariq Owens, Marvin Clark and Justin Simon. Additionally we brought in transfers Mikey Dixon and Sedee Keita who will be part of next year's team. Now we are looking at possibly more transfers to supplement next year's roster and beyond.

At this point Tariq may stay at St. John's but is definitely going to explore his options to leave. This should not be a surprise to anyone, because when you live with the benefits of this culture you will have to deal with the defection side too. Personally I am not sure why it makes sense to praise players when they choose to come here and bash them if they choose to go. Like it or not this is just the nature of things in today's game.

The incredible UMBC upset over Virginia was historic and fascinating. It was the first time a number sixteen seed ever beat a number one seed in the NCAA men's tournament. Some believed it would never happen.

I have posted a link to an article (see below) about UMBC's star player Jairus Lyles and his unusual transfer journey that led him to the spotlight of perhaps the biggest upset in the history of the NCAA tournament. The decision for him to stay at UMBC shows what can be possible if you decide to stay the course and not transfer. Maybe we should show this article to any of our players when they are considering leaving St. John's. Players need to know that there can be some real benefits in staying.

[URL][URL]https://www.yahoo.com/spo...om-3-schools-4-coaching-staffs-033448366.html[/URL][/URL][/quote]

Agree that the transfer culture is definitely at its peak, however even so can you point to another program that consistently loses as many players as us not counting a coaching change? Again, I feel like many in our fanbase sugarcoat things way too much at times IMO. Is it really likely that this is all by chance and has absolutely zero to do with coaching? Which one of those is more likely? Jay Wright goes out and gets 3 star kids who did not get scouted much and by the time they are seniors (usually sooner), they are absolute studs. Spellman is a freshman playing like a senior. My point is you know good coaching when you see it. You can clearly see their development. We say Tariq's but he also worked a lot with his father outside of official practices so who knows who gets some of that credit. Yakwe regressed, Amar regressed, Ponds regressed (better shooting numbers as a freshman), Clark and Simon are transfers, etc. The only evidence I see is regression overall in terms of player development which is alarming given the fact that many players get better naturally even with an average coach.

There is smoke coming from the kitchen and many of us don't seem interested in checking the oven due to fear of what they may find: that maybe, just maybe recruits and current players are losing faith in our coaching staff.[/quote]

Mike, is there any coach in their third season that would compare to arguably the top coach in the country finishing out his 25th season? It's an unfair comparison that no coach in their third season would meet. Wright took time to develop into a successful coach and did not get his programs winning a consistent basis for years. He also built his programs before the lax transfer rules of today.

With the issues of players coming and going, and rumors with coaching changes, Mullin has the RPI going down from 240 in year one to the mid 140s to 90. His record shows improvement because he produced better and improved players.
 
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It would probably make more sense to compare Mullin to someone other than Jay Wright. If all schools got rid of their coaches today who didn't compare favorably to Wright, even those who are on the job more than three years , about 350 would be looking for a job.
 
I agree with everyone pointing out the obvious error that Mike Zaun posted about Wright's recruiting. Lest we bury the lead:

Mike Zaun wrote - "Yakwe regressed, Amar regressed, Ponds regressed (better shooting numbers as a freshman)"

- Yakwe, agreed.

- Amar was a great kid who couldn't play at this level. I think he improved. If someone wants to say he didn't to make a point go for it. Regressed? He was tackling guys on the court in his first game at Carnesecca.

- Ponds. 2018 First Team Big East. Ponds didn't improve? We should have a team of guys who don't improve like that we would be a one seed.
 
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You make good points, ‘72.
Sometimes you criticize CM too much for my admittedly favorable image of Mully, but sometimes you hit it square in the mouth—like today.
Chris must be open to make the changes necessary to dig us out of the trenches of Major DI basketball and achieve consistent success in the mode of Providence, Seton Hall, Georgetown, Creighton, Xavier, and ultimately and ideally Nova.
We need a recruiting strategy that focuses on depth, consistency, and player retention, and a second recruiter and an assistant coach adept in x/o tactics and game management.
I do not blame CM for the trench we’re in but there are clear needs that must be met for St. John’s to again rise to the top grid of Major College hoops.
 
I hear you guys and agree but no coach anywhere is going to put up great numbers without great players Great recruiting comes ahead of great coaching the prior makes the coach great. Without it he could be better than average if he is very good nkoe]ws his x@os and has avery competent staff and a clean program
 
So let’s use Nova as the yardstick. Wright’s first year 2001-2002, there were at least 3 significant returnees, Gary Buchanan who averaged 13.4 points the year before, Ricky Wright 8.6, and Brook Sales 9.0. In addition Derrick Snowden who averaged 4.2 and Reggie Bryant 5.7. They went 19-13. Buchanan, Wright and Snowden returned after averaging 17.8, 13.7, and 10,4 respectively. To those returnees, Wright added a very heralded recruiting class of Randy Foye, Allan Ray, Curtis Sumpter, and Jason Fraser. Despite the mixture of experience and talented youth they went 15-16. The next year, with the freshmen now sophomores, returning Snowden and adding Mike Nardi, they went 18-17. Those 3 years they went 21-27 in the BE. This not to knock Wright or praise Mullin, certainly one has proven himself and the other very much remains to be seen. But it is to state building a program is hard, even for an experienced coach coming in to a stable situation.
 
Would like to see Mullin and St. Jean as a recruiting team and Matt and Mitch as another recruiting team. We need to attract better talent and work on retaining the guys we get. Gotta get some bigs in our mix. All stating the obvious. Frustrated watching March basketball without us participating again. We should be there every year.
 
Excellent background Logen.
I agree St. John’s hit bottom 3 years ago, with its depth and starting lineup devastated by graduation and defections.
Chris had to dig out from the pits very late in the recruiting cycle for the ‘15-‘16 season and with a decimated foundation had to resort to 2*/3* players, transfers, and the inevitable 4* Star kids (and parents) with 5* perceptions and NBA fantasies.
But we need help in recruiting, whether that’s a ‘team approach’ or a second recruiter. And we need improvement in x/o strategies and game management—which imo would be facilitated by hiring an experienced assistant coach happy for a chance at a major college program.
 
[quote="fun" post=277285][quote="Mike Zaun" post=277280]Jay Wright goes out and gets 3 star kids who did not get scouted much and by the time they are seniors (usually sooner), they are absolute studs. [/quote]

Nova recruiting since 2011

5-star recruits: 2
4-star recruits: 11
3-star recruits: 3
2-star recruit: 1



2011

****
****
***

2012

****
****

2013

****
****
***

2014

****
****

2015

*****
****
****

2016

*****
***

2017

****
****
**[/quote]

Anyone with a quarter of a brain knows Omari Spellman was high 4* or low 5* recruit. He also sat out last season and got coached up. And posters are surprised he played well. SMH.
 
[quote="Logen" post=277304]So let’s use Nova as the yardstick. Wright’s first year 2001-2002, there were at least 3 significant returnees, Gary Buchanan who averaged 13.4 points the year before, Ricky Wright 8.6, and Brook Sales 9.0. In addition Derrick Snowden who averaged 4.2 and Reggie Bryant 5.7. They went 19-13. Buchanan, Wright and Snowden returned after averaging 17.8, 13.7, and 10,4 respectively. To those returnees, Wright added a very heralded recruiting class of Randy Foye, Allan Ray, Curtis Sumpter, and Jason Fraser. Despite the mixture of experience and talented youth they went 15-16. The next year, with the freshmen now sophomores, returning Snowden and adding Mike Nardi, they went 18-17. Those 3 years they went 21-27 in the BE. This not to knock Wright or praise Mullin, certainly one has proven himself and the other very much remains to be seen. But it is to state building a program is hard, even for an experienced coach coming in to a stable situation.[/quote]

"But it is to state building a program is hard, even for an experienced coach coming in to a stable situation."

While I agree with everything you have said, St. John's, a bottom dweller, apparently chose the very long and risky approach by hiring a coach who never coached, and assistants that never assisted while preparing to fire an incompetent A.D., with a college president who never guided any major university with any major sports program.
At St. John's we have treated building a basketball program the way the mafia builds whore houses: with a lot of risky sex with goal of making profits over horn dog customers.
We are the customers who keep coming back for more.
 
[quote="redken" post=276825]P.S. The whole five-year senior free transfer nonsense has got to stop. What may have initially sounded like a good idea has turned out to be flat-out awful ... and not just for us in this case.[/quote]

Not really. This is why the proposed one transfer for free rules are good in my opinion. Will make kids think real hard about it. Am I happy Owens wants to leave? No. But he's graduating and has the ability to transfer. If you limit kids to one transfer maybe he would have stuck it out at Tenn. Or if not then he used his and now has to finish out at SJU or go pro.
 
[quote="Moose" post=277311][quote="redken" post=276825]P.S. The whole five-year senior free transfer nonsense has got to stop. What may have initially sounded like a good idea has turned out to be flat-out awful ... and not just for us in this case.[/quote]

Not really. This is why the proposed one transfer for free rules are good in my opinion. Will make kids think real hard about it. Am I happy Owens wants to leave? No. But he's graduating and has the ability to transfer. If you limit kids to one transfer maybe he would have stuck it out at Tenn. Or if not then he used his and now has to finish out at SJU or go pro.[/quote]

Agree on Owens, I don’t understand his (or his father’s) reasoning but he is obviously playing by the rules. Never thought about the one transfer approach but it sounds good. Right now, mid-majors are starting to become de facto minor leagues for the power conferences. Not quite but getting there.
 
[quote="Moose" post=277311][quote="redken" post=276825]P.S. The whole five-year senior free transfer nonsense has got to stop. What may have initially sounded like a good idea has turned out to be flat-out awful ... and not just for us in this case.[/quote]

Not really. This is why the proposed one transfer for free rules are good in my opinion. Will make kids think real hard about it. Am I happy Owens wants to leave? No. But he's graduating and has the ability to transfer. If you limit kids to one transfer maybe he would have stuck it out at Tenn. Or if not then he used his and now has to finish out at SJU or go pro.[/quote]

The one transfer free concept makes a lot of sense.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=277213]We need 2 recruiters on our staff[/quote]

Why just 2? Why not 4?
It's not like the players train and practice 40 hours a week. Plenty of time to go around.
 
I will say this about the Owens situation. While I want him to stay and accept his role, if you look at the teams who are still alive in the NCAA Tournament, especially the lower seeds like a Loyola-Chicago, what’s the one thing they all have in common? THEY SHARE THE BALL! Even the higher seeded teams like Nova and others. The kids are unselfish and don’t care who scores the points as long as they win and they are also committed to defense. If Owens wants more shots at the expense of winning games just so he can get his points then we don’t need him here if he’s that selfish. He also is not a good passer or one on one defender. He great shot blocker coming off the help or weak side but that does not necessarily constitute a commitment to or quality of overall defensive play. We need unselfish players who are going to buy into sharing the ball and getting the best shot possible. Yes, Shamorie is our best player and at times we will need him to take over games . Especially, close games at the end. But, for the most part we need team guys who are willing to share the ball and not complain about how many shots they are getting. Owens obviously does not want to be that player. Therefore ,let him go and let’s find a role player big guy with the skill sets that we need.
 
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