a lot of endlessly repetitive chatter

[quote="MJDinkins" post=292376][quote="Room112" post=292374][quote="MJDinkins" post=292371][quote="Class of 72" post=292369][quote="Tom in Salem" post=292362][quote="richard A Steinfeld" post=292354][quote="fuchsia" post=292352]Chicago, I appreciate your optimism but it is now 20- years plus since I've been on Redmen.com and I see Heron as an opportunity for the NCAA to prove their wisdom in changing the transfer regs by pointing out that Heron is screwed since he filed before the rules were changed and once again St. John's is out of luck.

On another point, I joined Redmen.com more than 20 years ago in part because my independent contacts in NYC basketball were telling me that Fran's behavior toward his players was abusive to the extreme, player families were complaining to the administration, and some of the abusive behavior was being interpreted as racist. Lo and behold, Mike Jarvis appeared on the scene to solve that problem (or not). I bring this up now because a Richmond out, Rice in scenario would put us in the position of having an all white coaching staff, having just removed a Hall of Fame player and replaced him with a coach with historical character issues, in a sport where the overwhelming majority of high end recruits, are from minority backgrounds. One incident and we could be blown up for another generation.[/quote] I’ve pointed this out before. Although ,I feel people should be hired on merit and not race . An all white staff may create problems and give opposing coaches some ammo to use against us,[/quote]

MR was not part of Mullin's initial full time staff.[/quote]

MR is not part of the current full time staff either.;)
We have a black hall of famer.........has it helped with recruits??? Recruits don't select UCLA, Kentucky, Duke, Villanova, Syracuse, North Carolina, Kansas, etc., etc., because of a black assistant coach. It's an insult to many African American parents and players to use black assistants as a lure in this day and age. Those are the same assistants thrown under the bus when scandals arise. Note the current FBI probe.
Pretty damn close to 99% of elite players choose to play for white coaches at predominantly white colleges. Some underestimate the business smarts of black players and parents. If the race of the coach or coaches was a major issue Howard University would be a perennial national power.[/quote]

No, black teenagers may not exactly be choosing those schools based on a black assistant being on those respective staffs. I can assure you that it helps or sure as hell doesn't hurt that a black assistant (or more) are on those particular staffs. Not to mention, we haven't been nearly as successful as those particular programs. We'd likely be an easy target for negative recruitment.

The reason our HOF black assistant hasn't helped with recruiting because he's loafing just a bit more than our other HOF'er. I have a hunch if Richmond wasn't "taking it easy," then we'd see an uptick (even if was slightly) in recruiting.

I think you're underestimating some of these kids and, more importantly, their parents (or guardians, siblings, uncles and grandparents).[/quote]

Let me ask you this then. Not saying I disagree with you. But with this "negative recruiting", don't you think kids and parents and guardians are smart enough to see that speaking poorly about other coaches, shows serious red flags about one's character?[/quote]

In that particular scenario, an opposing staff won't actually have to speak poorly. All they have to say is there isn't any black coaches on their staff, and that just may be enough to dissuade a kid and his parent(s).

Or, it could just be a case where a parent, guardian or such can see for themselves and that may be enough to turn 'em off.[/quote]

I don't think a black or green assistant coach is ever the deciding factor. A black head coach would have a greater impact but even in those programs there is never a distinct advantage in recruiting. Players want to play with other elite players in programs that showcase their talents and attract pro scouts.
That is why Howard University is not a national basketball power.;)
 
Time to lock the thread because it's now about as useless as the political threads. Not talking about any poster talking about debating Rice
 
Is anyone contacting the school about the Mike Rice Situation. This is a no brainier of a hire, This is unacceptable and embarrassing.
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=292380][quote="MJDinkins" post=292376][quote="Room112" post=292374][quote="MJDinkins" post=292371][quote="Class of 72" post=292369][quote="Tom in Salem" post=292362][quote="richard A Steinfeld" post=292354][quote="fuchsia" post=292352]Chicago, I appreciate your optimism but it is now 20- years plus since I've been on Redmen.com and I see Heron as an opportunity for the NCAA to prove their wisdom in changing the transfer regs by pointing out that Heron is screwed since he filed before the rules were changed and once again St. John's is out of luck.

On another point, I joined Redmen.com more than 20 years ago in part because my independent contacts in NYC basketball were telling me that Fran's behavior toward his players was abusive to the extreme, player families were complaining to the administration, and some of the abusive behavior was being interpreted as racist. Lo and behold, Mike Jarvis appeared on the scene to solve that problem (or not). I bring this up now because a Richmond out, Rice in scenario would put us in the position of having an all white coaching staff, having just removed a Hall of Fame player and replaced him with a coach with historical character issues, in a sport where the overwhelming majority of high end recruits, are from minority backgrounds. One incident and we could be blown up for another generation.[/quote] I’ve pointed this out before. Although ,I feel people should be hired on merit and not race . An all white staff may create problems and give opposing coaches some ammo to use against us,[/quote]

MR was not part of Mullin's initial full time staff.[/quote]

MR is not part of the current full time staff either.;)
We have a black hall of famer.........has it helped with recruits??? Recruits don't select UCLA, Kentucky, Duke, Villanova, Syracuse, North Carolina, Kansas, etc., etc., because of a black assistant coach. It's an insult to many African American parents and players to use black assistants as a lure in this day and age. Those are the same assistants thrown under the bus when scandals arise. Note the current FBI probe.
Pretty damn close to 99% of elite players choose to play for white coaches at predominantly white colleges. Some underestimate the business smarts of black players and parents. If the race of the coach or coaches was a major issue Howard University would be a perennial national power.[/quote]

No, black teenagers may not exactly be choosing those schools based on a black assistant being on those respective staffs. I can assure you that it helps or sure as hell doesn't hurt that a black assistant (or more) are on those particular staffs. Not to mention, we haven't been nearly as successful as those particular programs. We'd likely be an easy target for negative recruitment.

The reason our HOF black assistant hasn't helped with recruiting because he's loafing just a bit more than our other HOF'er. I have a hunch if Richmond wasn't "taking it easy," then we'd see an uptick (even if was slightly) in recruiting.

I think you're underestimating some of these kids and, more importantly, their parents (or guardians, siblings, uncles and grandparents).[/quote]

Let me ask you this then. Not saying I disagree with you. But with this "negative recruiting", don't you think kids and parents and guardians are smart enough to see that speaking poorly about other coaches, shows serious red flags about one's character?[/quote]

In that particular scenario, an opposing staff won't actually have to speak poorly. All they have to say is there isn't any black coaches on their staff, and that just may be enough to dissuade a kid and his parent(s).

Or, it could just be a case where a parent, guardian or such can see for themselves and that may be enough to turn 'em off.[/quote]

I don't think a black or green assistant coach is ever the deciding factor. A black head coach would have a greater impact but even in those programs there is never a distinct advantage in recruiting. Players want to play with other elite players in programs that showcase their talents and attract pro scouts.
That is why Howard University is not a national basketball power.;)[/quote]

Believe what you want.
 
[quote="jcoggs" post=292384]Is anyone contacting the school about the Mike Rice Situation. This is a no brainier of a hire, This is unacceptable and embarrassing.[/quote]

I didn't think rosters were expanded until September 1st? How'd you make it outta rookie forum ball?
 
[quote="richard A Steinfeld" post=292354][quote="fuchsia" post=292352]Chicago, I appreciate your optimism but it is now 20- years plus since I've been on Redmen.com and I see Heron as an opportunity for the NCAA to prove their wisdom in changing the transfer regs by pointing out that Heron is screwed since he filed before the rules were changed and once again St. John's is out of luck.

On another point, I joined Redmen.com more than 20 years ago in part because my independent contacts in NYC basketball were telling me that Fran's behavior toward his players was abusive to the extreme, player families were complaining to the administration, and some of the abusive behavior was being interpreted as racist. Lo and behold, Mike Jarvis appeared on the scene to solve that problem (or not). I bring this up now because a Richmond out, Rice in scenario would put us in the position of having an all white coaching staff, having just removed a Hall of Fame player and replaced him with a coach with historical character issues, in a sport where the overwhelming majority of high end recruits, are from minority backgrounds. One incident and we could be blown up for another generation.[/quote] I’ve pointed this out before. Although ,I feel people should be hired on merit and not race . An all white staff may create problems and give opposing coaches some ammo to use against us,[/quote]

ohhhh I get it. Mitch doesn't have to do jack blank but we gotta keep him on the staff because he's black, and no other reason. Well if that's the case then screw basketball.
It should be about who would help more, and not about color.
 
[quote="jcoggs" post=292384]Is anyone contacting the school about the Mike Rice Situation. This is a no brainier of a hire, This is unacceptable and embarrassing.[/quote]


Um, who do you want/expect to be contacting the school regarding this?
 
Well since the FBI is targeting black assistant coaches and giving a pass to the Pitinos, Millers, Selfs and Krugers of the NCAA, why would you want that job if you are black? Does it say in the contract, Must fall on sword for scumbag head coach?
 
I'm not sure this situation is quite as extreme as it's being made out to be.

Mike Rice, nor really any assistant coach, is going to make or break a season/program. Can succeed without Mike Rice/other assistant and can flop with them.

That doesn't mean you don't try to optimize your staff to the greatest extent possible. Key question is really which is a stronger staff with greater depth of experience in college basketball operationally, recruiting, advance game prep, in game strategy, etc.?

Mullin, Mitch, Matt A, GSJ

Mullin, Rice/other assistant, Matt A, Mitch/GSJ

Lot of focus on Mitch but if you have a chance to get someone with the experience/upside of Rice or other comparable assistant, GSJ should be in play as well. Seems like a great guy, glad he's with SJU now, might be a star someday and if he is hope it's with SJU. But when GSJ was a senior in high school Rice took Robert Morris to the NCAA Tournament for the first time in 17 years...as their head coach. This is (at least supposed to be) bigtime college basketball. Just like you make scholarship room on a roster when there is an upgrade available you similarly make room on a staff. GSJ being DOBO and/or Special Assistant/Director of Player Development would still have him way ahead of the curve in terms of career arc in his late 20s. If room on staff really is part of the assessment here this should likely be a pretty clear option as well.

Hope everything is ok with Mitch personally, and have no knowledge of how much or how hard he works. But an assistant (now a HC at another high-major program) at a now former Big East program once estimated that in that role he spent about 265 days a year on the road. Not just working, but on the road which is incredibly challenging. Being an assistant coach at the college level is not a glamorous gig. Can be great pay, but a bigtime grind. So I think it's reasonable to wonder not just with Mitch, but with any former great especially HOF-level player, if they are committed to doing that. I don't think many would blame them if they weren't, and if they're not, are you getting the most out of valuable recruiting slots on the staff? Like GSJ glad Mitch is with the program, but if it means upgrading the staff is there really not another capacity for him to work in?

To that end from my perspective one of the big benefits of a Rice/other experienced assistant hire is that they know with eyes wide open what the job entails and what is required to succeed. They don't necessarily have a prior career/legacy as a player - coaching is what they do and the grind comes with the territory. For a staff that is so inexperienced at this level seems like there would be value add in that experience factor alone. Again it certainly doesn't have to be Rice, this is not about a particular coach but what a staff seems to be lacking and what would seem like a pretty easy thing to solve for.
 
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Wow. Don't read site on weekend so someone needs to summarize for me how Mike Rice thread became black / white issue. That took an unexpected turn from the last post I read on subject Friday afternoon.
 
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"Being an assistant coach at the college level is not a glamorous gig"

Someone said this on the other page...I'd disagree. Don't they get paid $200k at the lower end up to $500k or so at the high end? They get to go on trips to the Bahamas, Miami, and everywhere else exotic the team is going. Do they have a lot to do? Of course they do and I realize they're pulled away from their families but they know that's the nature of the job and they get a crazy high compensation for it. I'm not going to lose any sleep staying up at night thinking about how hard it is to recruit players, fly to cool places, and do scouting for $200k plus. May seem harsh, but these guys are rich. I'm not going to act like I know everything about what they do because I don't, but many people would jump at the opportunity to do such jobs with that salary. I think this is why so many are frustrated with Mitch...the guy is getting tons of money, is already rich, and he doesn't seem to give a flying you know what about the program. We all know that person that seems to be only taking up space and collecting a paycheck. That seems to be the vibe but obviously I have no real info on that...doesn't mean where there's smoke there's no fire though. I just don't get why we can't do anything quickly with this program...sit down interview Rice and either hire him or say nevermind. If you let him go then you should already have plans B and C and hire them. But now it's too late so if there's no Rice, there won't be anyone added. Mullin is making the job so much harder for himself for no reason and he can't even see that which is scary.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=292424]"Being an assistant coach at the college level is not a glamorous gig"

Someone said this on the other page...I'd disagree. Don't they get paid $200k at the lower end up to $500k or so at the high end? They get to go on trips to the Bahamas, Miami, and everywhere else exotic the team is going. Do they have a lot to do? Of course they do and I realize they're pulled away from their families but they know that's the nature of the job and they get a crazy high compensation for it. I'm not going to lose any sleep staying up at night thinking about how hard it is to recruit players, fly to cool places, and do scouting for $200k plus. May seem harsh, but these guys are rich. I'm not going to act like I know everything about what they do because I don't, but many people would jump at the opportunity to do such jobs with that salary. I think this is why so many are frustrated with Mitch...the guy is getting tons of money, is already rich, and he doesn't seem to give a flying you know what about the program. We all know that person that seems to be only taking up space and collecting a paycheck. That seems to be the vibe but obviously I have no real info on that...doesn't mean where there's smoke there's no fire though. I just don't get why we can't do anything quickly with this program...sit down interview Rice and either hire him or say nevermind. If you let him go then you should already have plans B and C and hire them. But now it's too late so if there's no Rice, there won't be anyone added. Mullin is making the job so much harder for himself for no reason and he can't even see that which is scary.[/quote]

Understand your point. I noted they are well-compensated. But they are paid such to do a very demanding job professionally in (at most places) an incredibly results-driven / what have you done for me lately business that can stretch their personal lives thin.

Don't think anyone is playing violin for assistant CBB coaches for reasons you noted amongst others. But reality is job requires more hours, more time on the road, and importantly more time spent operating with sketchy characters than a lot of jobs. Also note that a lot of guys start this career in their 20s where an early Saturday morning practice in New York followed by round-tripping Cleveland that afternoon to see a single kid play might not sound like a bad weekend, maybe even a fun one. When you're in your late 30s and you haven't seen your own kids in two weeks it's human to have a different outlook, especially when that cycle is basically rinse/wash/repeat for two-thirds of the year effectively every year your career. Save for a few weeks-long pockets throughout the year, there's almost no weekends or normalcy of schedule. Not easy.

Don't want to derail a Rice thread on this point, but as I'm sure others on here can attest challenging career with a much higher attrition rate than you might think by looking at the coaches that have succeeded / jobs that look cool. Good article on ESPN recently about CFB coaches that had success at really high levels that got out of the business altogether for the sort of reasons we are discussing.
 
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[quote="SJU1512" post=292428][quote="Mike Zaun" post=292424]"Being an assistant coach at the college level is not a glamorous gig"

Someone said this on the other page...I'd disagree. Don't they get paid $200k at the lower end up to $500k or so at the high end? They get to go on trips to the Bahamas, Miami, and everywhere else exotic the team is going. Do they have a lot to do? Of course they do and I realize they're pulled away from their families but they know that's the nature of the job and they get a crazy high compensation for it. I'm not going to lose any sleep staying up at night thinking about how hard it is to recruit players, fly to cool places, and do scouting for $200k plus. May seem harsh, but these guys are rich. I'm not going to act like I know everything about what they do because I don't, but many people would jump at the opportunity to do such jobs with that salary. I think this is why so many are frustrated with Mitch...the guy is getting tons of money, is already rich, and he doesn't seem to give a flying you know what about the program. We all know that person that seems to be only taking up space and collecting a paycheck. That seems to be the vibe but obviously I have no real info on that...doesn't mean where there's smoke there's no fire though. I just don't get why we can't do anything quickly with this program...sit down interview Rice and either hire him or say nevermind. If you let him go then you should already have plans B and C and hire them. But now it's too late so if there's no Rice, there won't be anyone added. Mullin is making the job so much harder for himself for no reason and he can't even see that which is scary.[/quote]

Understand your point. I noted they are well-compensated. But they are paid such to do a very demanding job professionally in (at most places) an incredibly results-driven / what have you done for me lately business that can stretch their personal lives thin.

Don't think anyone is playing violin for assistant CBB coaches for reasons you noted amongst others. But reality is job requires more hours, more time on the road, and importantly more time spent operating with sketchy characters than a lot of jobs. Also note that a lot of guys start this career in their 20s where an early Saturday morning practice in New York followed by round-tripping Cleveland that afternoon to see a single kid play might not sound like a bad weekend, maybe even a fun one. When you're in your late 30s and you haven't seen your own kids in two weeks it's human to have a different outlook, especially when that cycle is basically rinse/wash/repeat for two-thirds of the year effectively every year your career. Save for a few weeks-long pockets throughout the year, there's almost no weekends or normalcy of schedule. Not easy.

Don't want to derail a Rice thread on this point, but as I'm sure others on here can attest challenging career with a much higher attrition rate than you might think by looking at the coaches that have succeeded / jobs that look cool. Good article on ESPN recently about CFB coaches that had success at really high levels that got out of the business altogether for the sort of reasons we are discussing.[/quote] Your first paragraph sums up the disappointment by most fans. The assistants are paid to do a demanding job at most places. But not at St. Johns. Mitch can take the whole summer off and its OK. When the opportunity arises to replace him w a more experienced, more AAU connected, harder working Rice, St Johns sits on their hands.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=292424]"Being an assistant coach at the college level is not a glamorous gig"

Someone said this on the other page...I'd disagree. Don't they get paid $200k at the lower end up to $500k or so at the high end? [/quote]

You are talking about the small minority of coaches. It's hard as heck to crap into those upper-echelon assistant gigs.

For example, here is an article about the salaries at Missouri State stating $40-90k. That isn't much for guys working the hours they do. That is actually a decent mid-major.

https://eu.news-leader.com/story/sp...-assistant-coach-salaries-revealed/616739002/
 
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Yes it's demanding, which is why in our specific instance Matt is making a ton of money...rivaling that of the president of the USA which I believe is 400k. That has to be more than 95% of people in the country I would think. Wouldn't you expect a crazy high salary job to come with such things? Yes it's a sacrifice but they know what they're getting into. With Matt's situation it's not fair, because he is the only one...he should 100% have someone else helping and Mullin keeps refusing which is what led me to believe that he may not want to stay here for any extended period of time if that isn't resolved. If it becomes too demanding in your 30's or whatever, then you find a new gig. The days of people working 1 job until they retire are over. What really gets people annoyed is when you have highly, highly compensated coaches who don't appear to care. What gets people even more annoyed is when such people keep their jobs because they know someone (in this case Mullin). It creates resentment from fellow staff possibly as well.

Do you know how many qualified and experienced assistants would JUMP at the opportunity to do everything possible to help us here at a major program in a major city? I've said all along, I want it to be Rice but it doesn't have to be and now it feels like if that officially falls through, we are going another year with yet another glaring need unfilled. The lack of bigs and real qualified coaching is killing us. I just picture guys like Jay Wright being on campus in their office and players stop by to run things by him or BS...it builds chemistry. Then I picture our players looking around and there's no staff to be seen except maybe Matt and GSJ? Nothing wrong with them they're good guys, but we need the head coach and other assistants MUCH more visible. Think of all the negative recruiting that can be and probably is done against our staff.
 
[quote="richard A Steinfeld" post=292429][quote="SJU1512" post=292428][quote="Mike Zaun" post=292424]"Being an assistant coach at the college level is not a glamorous gig"

Someone said this on the other page...I'd disagree. Don't they get paid $200k at the lower end up to $500k or so at the high end? They get to go on trips to the Bahamas, Miami, and everywhere else exotic the team is going. Do they have a lot to do? Of course they do and I realize they're pulled away from their families but they know that's the nature of the job and they get a crazy high compensation for it. I'm not going to lose any sleep staying up at night thinking about how hard it is to recruit players, fly to cool places, and do scouting for $200k plus. May seem harsh, but these guys are rich. I'm not going to act like I know everything about what they do because I don't, but many people would jump at the opportunity to do such jobs with that salary. I think this is why so many are frustrated with Mitch...the guy is getting tons of money, is already rich, and he doesn't seem to give a flying you know what about the program. We all know that person that seems to be only taking up space and collecting a paycheck. That seems to be the vibe but obviously I have no real info on that...doesn't mean where there's smoke there's no fire though. I just don't get why we can't do anything quickly with this program...sit down interview Rice and either hire him or say nevermind. If you let him go then you should already have plans B and C and hire them. But now it's too late so if there's no Rice, there won't be anyone added. Mullin is making the job so much harder for himself for no reason and he can't even see that which is scary.[/quote]

Understand your point. I noted they are well-compensated. But they are paid such to do a very demanding job professionally in (at most places) an incredibly results-driven / what have you done for me lately business that can stretch their personal lives thin.

Don't think anyone is playing violin for assistant CBB coaches for reasons you noted amongst others. But reality is job requires more hours, more time on the road, and importantly more time spent operating with sketchy characters than a lot of jobs. Also note that a lot of guys start this career in their 20s where an early Saturday morning practice in New York followed by round-tripping Cleveland that afternoon to see a single kid play might not sound like a bad weekend, maybe even a fun one. When you're in your late 30s and you haven't seen your own kids in two weeks it's human to have a different outlook, especially when that cycle is basically rinse/wash/repeat for two-thirds of the year effectively every year your career. Save for a few weeks-long pockets throughout the year, there's almost no weekends or normalcy of schedule. Not easy.

Don't want to derail a Rice thread on this point, but as I'm sure others on here can attest challenging career with a much higher attrition rate than you might think by looking at the coaches that have succeeded / jobs that look cool. Good article on ESPN recently about CFB coaches that had success at really high levels that got out of the business altogether for the sort of reasons we are discussing.[/quote] Your first paragraph sums up the disappointment by most fans. The assistants are paid to do a demanding job at most places. But not at St. Johns. Mitch can take the whole summer off and its OK. When the opportunity arises to replace him w a more experienced, more AAU connected, harder working Rice, St Johns sits on their hands.[/quote]

I hear you and agree. Mitch’s future should’ve been finalized before Rice started the sit-down interviews.
Hard to fathom why it wasn’t, but may have something to do with Mitch’s personal issues, but yes the mis-timing is puzzling, particularly when it’s either simmering Rice at this late date or Mitch—‘empty chair’ as usual or a re-energized HOFer.
It’s unimaginable to me, that Mullin would agree to have ‘empty chair’ Mitch back with a make-or-break season imminent.
We shall see.
 
Maybe Mullin doesn't care about this because he's resigning after next season regardless of if we make the tourney or not? Honestly that's as good a theory as any other at this point. To be clear, just a theory.
 
[quote="gman" post=292431][quote="Mike Zaun" post=292424]"Being an assistant coach at the college level is not a glamorous gig"

Someone said this on the other page...I'd disagree. Don't they get paid $200k at the lower end up to $500k or so at the high end? [/quote]

You are talking about the small minority of coaches. It's hard as heck to crap into those upper-echelon assistant gigs.

For example, here is an article about the salaries at Missouri State stating $40-90k. That isn't much for guys working the hours they do. That is actually a decent mid-major.

[URL][URL]https://eu.news-leader.co...-assistant-coach-salaries-revealed/616739002/[/URL][/URL][/quote]

This may be news to some here but our crappy program has been paying assistants in the range of top 25 programs since mullin's arrival. Slice's salary has been reported in the range of $500-600K. Mitch is speculated to be in the $250k range. If we are paying two guys who are invisible to fans and recruits upwards of $800K as assistants then your argument gets thrown out of the window. In fact, we are compensating Mitch and Slice close to the annual salary of David Padgett who is the head coach of Louisville.
The entire Slice drama is about money and headcount and trying to get around the clusterfck that Mullin has created.
One of the trustees is livid over this conundrum.

[URL][URL]https://www.boydsbets.com/highest-paid-coaches-college-basketball/[/URL][/URL]
 
Mike Zaun wrote:

Maybe Mullin doesn't care about this because he's resigning after next season regardless of if we make the tourney or not? Honestly that's as good a theory as any other at this point. To be clear, just a theory.

Jeez! Can we let this play out before theorizing with absolutely no basis in fact that our HOF coach and best player we ever had is intending to bail on the program he loves? This site is really becoming unreadable....
 
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