Zags: St. John's & Slice Part Ways

[monte]

So Lavin gets a complete pass because you hated Roberts .....

Roberts had a tougher job than the TV Announcer when hired.

Roberts was the wrong person to be hired for the St. John's job after Jarvis. Thank you Father Harrington. Notwithstanding that fact, Roberts took over under far worse conditions than the TV Announcer did.

Roberts was hired with the stench of the Pittsburgh headline scandal and only 4 scholarship players on his roster causing him to use a walk on in his rotation (anyone recall the walk-on's name?). The NCAA announced sanctions against St.Johns before his first early signing period with competing coaches stressing to recruits that StJohn's was on NCAA probation. It has been reported that Harrington limited Roberts' budget for assistants and travel.

The TV Announcer took over the StJohn's program with a bumped up budget, and a full roster of talented seniors. "Lav" never had to deal with NCAA probation or a limited budget.

Lavin was not a great coach. I don't think you will find anyone who will disagree with that. He was also a self promoter and a Drama Queen.
HOWEVER. Would you have bet the kids college fund Norm would have gotten the Hardy team to the tourney? Would have been more difficult with Hardy and Brownlee coming off the bench , no?

Agree that it was highly unlikely that Norm would have gotten that team to the tourney. But don't think Otis was saying that Norm was a better coach or that he would have even gotten that team to the tourney. Just that Norm came in under far far more difficult circumstances than Lavin did. I would have to agree with that.

 

[Class of 72]

So Lavin gets a complete pass because you hated Roberts .....

Roberts had a tougher job than the TV Announcer when hired.

Roberts was the wrong person to be hired for the St. John's job after Jarvis. Thank you Father Harrington. Notwithstanding that fact, Roberts took over under far worse conditions than the TV Announcer did.

Roberts was hired with the stench of the Pittsburgh headline scandal and only 4 scholarship players on his roster causing him to use a walk on in his rotation (anyone recall the walk-on's name?). The NCAA announced sanctions against St.Johns before his first early signing period with competing coaches stressing to recruits that StJohn's was on NCAA probation. It has been reported that Harrington limited Roberts' budget for assistants and travel.

The TV Announcer took over the StJohn's program with a bumped up budget, and a full roster of talented seniors. "Lav" never had to deal with NCAA probation or a limited budget.

Lavin was not a great coach. I don't think you will find anyone who will disagree with that. He was also a self promoter and a Drama Queen.
HOWEVER. Would you have bet the kids college fund Norm would have gotten the Hardy team to the tourney? Would have been more difficult with Hardy and Brownlee coming off the bench , no?

Agree that it was highly unlikely that Norm would have gotten that team to the tourney. But don't think Otis was saying that Norm was a better coach or that he would have even gotten that team to the tourney. Just that Norm came in under far far more difficult circumstances than Lavin did. I would have to agree with that.

Time to get back to the Mullin era. Norm and Lav coached in the old Big East which was a completely different animal. Last year was an irrelevant wash. I think, looking back at past Mullin observations here during the season, many felt the same way Slice may have felt which may have led to this strange parting of ways between two old friends. One was (a) you hired me to be your associate "head coach" then (b) you hire your west coast friend's son to be the junior associate head coach. Then you bring in another friend to be your advisor and mostly confer with him during games when not sitting on the scorers table. Regardless of the great salary and all the question became "what the fck am I needed here for?". Bottom line is this: this Slice situation, not having an AD as a boss and last year's OJT disaster will put Mullin under more scrutiny in year two than most of us expected. Where 16 wins would have been acceptable and no post season now would be deemed a poor showing by most critics. In this 10 team Big East Mullin needs to win at least 18 games for future recruits to be convinced that they can progress. Our inexperienced staff need to pull some rabbits out of their asses and our young players need to show considerable progress by Big East regular season. The days of losing by 30 points to D3 teams and the Sisters of the Lady of the Lake must be over.

 

[JohnnyFan]

So Lavin gets a complete pass because you hated Roberts .....

Roberts had a tougher job than the TV Announcer when hired.

Roberts was the wrong person to be hired for the St. John's job after Jarvis. Thank you Father Harrington. Notwithstanding that fact, Roberts took over under far worse conditions than the TV Announcer did.

Roberts was hired with the stench of the Pittsburgh headline scandal and only 4 scholarship players on his roster causing him to use a walk on in his rotation (anyone recall the walk-on's name?). The NCAA announced sanctions against St.Johns before his first early signing period with competing coaches stressing to recruits that StJohn's was on NCAA probation. It has been reported that Harrington limited Roberts' budget for assistants and travel.

The TV Announcer took over the StJohn's program with a bumped up budget, and a full roster of talented seniors. "Lav" never had to deal with NCAA probation or a limited budget.

Lavin was not a great coach. I don't think you will find anyone who will disagree with that. He was also a self promoter and a Drama Queen.
HOWEVER. Would you have bet the kids college fund Norm would have gotten the Hardy team to the tourney? Would have been more difficult with Hardy and Brownlee coming off the bench , no?

I agree, Mike Dunlap did a great job of getting that senior crew to the tourney. And, Lavin did a nice job talking to the media.

 

[OLV72]

I understand posters concern for Mitch being promoted to AC but I think people are also underestimating the different impact he could have in that role. Right now he is not allowed to talk to any recruits off of campus (probably on too but who knows) and is not supposed to have any direct instruction with players. As an AC he will be able to sit in recruits living rooms with Mullin and Matt and talk about hall of fame careers. If he wants to be a full time D1 assistant then I gotta believe that he is motivated to work hard and perform well. He seemed engaged last year for the role he was in and I for one would look forward to seeing what he could bring to the table.

These are good points. Perhaps Mitch will excel in this role. I'm sure Mullin had to make the move to go on without slice. Hopefully the improvement in the coaching chemistry along with the new talent brings us earlier returns.

 

[salty dog]

I agree, Mike Dunlap did a great job of getting that senior crew to the tourney. And, Lavin did a nice job talking to the media.[/quote]

And Mike Dunlap did a bang up job on his own the next year when Lavin was out with Cancer.

 

[JohnnyFan]

I agree, Mike Dunlap did a great job of getting that senior crew to the tourney. And, Lavin did a nice job talking to the media.

And Mike Dunlap did a bang up job on his own the next year when Lavin was out with Cancer. [/quote]

Surely you understand the difference experienced upperclassman make.

 

[logen]

So Lavin gets a complete pass because you hated Roberts .....

Roberts had a tougher job than the TV Announcer when hired.

Roberts was the wrong person to be hired for the St. John's job after Jarvis. Thank you Father Harrington. Notwithstanding that fact, Roberts took over under far worse conditions than the TV Announcer did.

Roberts was hired with the stench of the Pittsburgh headline scandal and only 4 scholarship players on his roster causing him to use a walk on in his rotation (anyone recall the walk-on's name?). The NCAA announced sanctions against St.Johns before his first early signing period with competing coaches stressing to recruits that StJohn's was on NCAA probation. It has been reported that Harrington limited Roberts' budget for assistants and travel.

The TV Announcer took over the StJohn's program with a bumped up budget, and a full roster of talented seniors. "Lav" never had to deal with NCAA probation or a limited budget.

Lavin was not a great coach. I don't think you will find anyone who will disagree with that. He was also a self promoter and a Drama Queen.
HOWEVER. Would you have bet the kids college fund Norm would have gotten the Hardy team to the tourney? Would have been more difficult with Hardy and Brownlee coming off the bench , no?

Agree that it was highly unlikely that Norm would have gotten that team to the tourney. But don't think Otis was saying that Norm was a better coach or that he would have even gotten that team to the tourney. Just that Norm came in under far far more difficult circumstances than Lavin did. I would have to agree with that.

Time to get back to the Mullin era. Norm and Lav coached in the old Big East which was a completely different animal. Last year was an irrelevant wash. I think, looking back at past Mullin observations here during the season, many felt the same way Slice may have felt which may have led to this strange parting of ways between two old friends. One was (a) you hired me to be your associate "head coach" then (b) you hire your west coast friend's son to be the junior associate head coach. Then you bring in another friend to be your advisor and mostly confer with him during games when not sitting on the scorers table. Regardless of the great salary and all the question became "what the fck am I needed here for?". Bottom line is this: this Slice situation, not having an AD as a boss and last year's OJT disaster will put Mullin under more scrutiny in year two than most of us expected. Where 16 wins would have been acceptable and no post season now would be deemed a poor showing by most critics. In this 10 team Big East Mullin needs to win at least 18 games for future recruits to be convinced that they can progress. Our inexperienced staff need to pull some rabbits out of their asses and our young players need to show considerable progress by Big East regular season. The days of losing by 30 points to D3 teams and the Sisters of the Lady of the Lake must be over.

Curious as to what "critics" you refer to. Knowledgeable people know this is a multi-year project. Funny, you go from calling last year an irrelevant wash right to more Mullin bashing. Future recruits are fine, it is unrealistic fans who have a problem. More funny, many on this board fell over themselves to predict a disaster last year record wise and when it happened couldn't turn on Mullin quick enough. There is a learning curve for anyone coming into any completely new job with ZERO experience but evidently Mullin had to come in as the second coming of Red Auerbach and John Wooden from jump street for some of you. The Slice situation, as you put it, is that the guy has jumped year to year to new jobs for the last 3 or 4 so maybe that is the issue. In any case, anyone who thinks he is brought anywhere to do anything but recruit is just kidding themselves. As to the AD situation, do you think anyone outside of a small SJU circle knows or even cares and if you think any recruit cares, you are delusional. Fact, we lost to the teams we lost to last year because that was the talent we had, period. Even more funny, no one talks about the games we hung in against very good teams, games where we fought back in the second half from double digit deficits against good teams even after it was obvious the season record wise was in the toilet; a clear reflection of the coaches and players dedication and commitment regardless of how much table sitting was done. Mullin should and will get from knowledgeable "critics" the 3-5 years necessary to show what he can do, as every EXPERIENCED VETERAN coach rightfully gets when coming new into a program in the sh..ter. Unfortunately, I guess, many fans will not award him that luxury. I imagine Mullin and co. don't really care, they are too busy working.

 

[bk8664]

Time to get back to the Mullin era. Norm and Lav coached in the old Big East which was a completely different animal. Last year was an irrelevant wash. I think, looking back at past Mullin observations here during the season, many felt the same way Slice may have felt which may have led to this strange parting of ways between two old friends. One was (a) you hired me to be your associate "head coach" then (b) you hire your west coast friend's son to be the junior associate head coach. Then you bring in another friend to be your advisor and mostly confer with him during games when not sitting on the scorers table. Regardless of the great salary and all the question became "what the fck am I needed here for?". Bottom line is this: this Slice situation, not having an AD as a boss and last year's OJT disaster will put Mullin under more scrutiny in year two than most of us expected. Where 16 wins would have been acceptable and no post season now would be deemed a poor showing by most critics. In this 10 team Big East Mullin needs to win at least 18 games for future recruits to be convinced that they can progress. Our inexperienced staff need to pull some rabbits out of their asses and our young players need to show considerable progress by Big East regular season. The days of losing by 30 points to D3 teams and the Sisters of the Lady of the Lake must be over.

No.

 

[bk8664]

Time to get back to the Mullin era. Norm and Lav coached in the old Big East which was a completely different animal. Last year was an irrelevant wash. I think, looking back at past Mullin observations here during the season, many felt the same way Slice may have felt which may have led to this strange parting of ways between two old friends. One was (a) you hired me to be your associate "head coach" then (b) you hire your west coast friend's son to be the junior associate head coach. Then you bring in another friend to be your advisor and mostly confer with him during games when not sitting on the scorers table. Regardless of the great salary and all the question became "what the fck am I needed here for?". Bottom line is this: this Slice situation, not having an AD as a boss and last year's OJT disaster will put Mullin under more scrutiny in year two than most of us expected. Where 16 wins would have been acceptable and no post season now would be deemed a poor showing by most critics. In this 10 team Big East Mullin needs to win at least 18 games for future recruits to be convinced that they can progress. Our inexperienced staff need to pull some rabbits out of their asses and our young players need to show considerable progress by Big East regular season. The days of losing by 30 points to D3 teams and the Sisters of the Lady of the Lake must be over.

Curious as to what "critics" you refer to. Knowledgeable people know this is a multi-year project. Funny, you go from calling last year an irrelevant wash right to more Mullin bashing. Future recruits are fine, it is unrealistic fans who have a problem. More funny, many on this board fell over themselves to predict a disaster last year record wise and when it happened couldn't turn on Mullin quick enough. There is a learning curve for anyone coming into any completely new job with ZERO experience but evidently Mullin had to come in as the second coming of Red Auerbach and John Wooden from jump street for some of you. The Slice situation, as you put it, is that the guy has jumped year to year to new jobs for the last 3 or 4 so maybe that is the issue. In any case, anyone who thinks he is brought anywhere to do anything but recruit is just kidding themselves. As to the AD situation, do you think anyone outside of a small SJU circle knows or even cares and if you think any recruit cares, you are delusional. Fact, we lost to the teams we lost to last year because that was the talent we had, period. Even more funny, no one talks about the games we hung in against very good teams, games where we fought back in the second half from double digit deficits against good teams even after it was obvious the season record wise was in the toilet; a clear reflection of the coaches and players dedication and commitment regardless of how much table sitting was done. Mullin should and will get from knowledgeable "critics" the 3-5 years necessary to show what he can do, as every EXPERIENCED VETERAN coach rightfully gets when coming new into a program in the sh..ter. Unfortunately, I guess, many fans will not award him that luxury. I imagine Mullin and co. don't really care, they are too busy working.

Yes.

 

[we are sju]

So Lavin gets a complete pass because you hated Roberts .....

Roberts had a tougher job than the TV Announcer when hired.

Roberts was the wrong person to be hired for the St. John's job after Jarvis. Thank you Father Harrington. Notwithstanding that fact, Roberts took over under far worse conditions than the TV Announcer did.

Roberts was hired with the stench of the Pittsburgh headline scandal and only 4 scholarship players on his roster causing him to use a walk on in his rotation (anyone recall the walk-on's name?). The NCAA announced sanctions against St.Johns before his first early signing period with competing coaches stressing to recruits that StJohn's was on NCAA probation. It has been reported that Harrington limited Roberts' budget for assistants and travel.

The TV Announcer took over the StJohn's program with a bumped up budget, and a full roster of talented seniors. "Lav" never had to deal with NCAA probation or a limited budget.

Lavin was not a great coach. I don't think you will find anyone who will disagree with that. He was also a self promoter and a Drama Queen.
HOWEVER. Would you have bet the kids college fund Norm would have gotten the Hardy team to the tourney? Would have been more difficult with Hardy and Brownlee coming off the bench , no?

Agree that it was highly unlikely that Norm would have gotten that team to the tourney. But don't think Otis was saying that Norm was a better coach or that he would have even gotten that team to the tourney. Just that Norm came in under far far more difficult circumstances than Lavin did. I would have to agree with that.

Time to get back to the Mullin era. Norm and Lav coached in the old Big East which was a completely different animal. Last year was an irrelevant wash. I think, looking back at past Mullin observations here during the season, many felt the same way Slice may have felt which may have led to this strange parting of ways between two old friends. One was (a) you hired me to be your associate "head coach" then (b) you hire your west coast friend's son to be the junior associate head coach. Then you bring in another friend to be your advisor and mostly confer with him during games when not sitting on the scorers table. Regardless of the great salary and all the question became "what the fck am I needed here for?". Bottom line is this: this Slice situation, not having an AD as a boss and last year's OJT disaster will put Mullin under more scrutiny in year two than most of us expected. Where 16 wins would have been acceptable and no post season now would be deemed a poor showing by most critics. In this 10 team Big East Mullin needs to win at least 18 games for future recruits to be convinced that they can progress. Our inexperienced staff need to pull some rabbits out of their asses and our young players need to show considerable progress by Big East regular season. The days of losing by 30 points to D3 teams and the Sisters of the Lady of the Lake must be over.

Curious as to what "critics" you refer to. Knowledgeable people know this is a multi-year project. Funny, you go from calling last year an irrelevant wash right to more Mullin bashing. Future recruits are fine, it is unrealistic fans who have a problem. More funny, many on this board fell over themselves to predict a disaster last year record wise and when it happened couldn't turn on Mullin quick enough. There is a learning curve for anyone coming into any completely new job with ZERO experience but evidently Mullin had to come in as the second coming of Red Auerbach and John Wooden from jump street for some of you. The Slice situation, as you put it, is that the guy has jumped year to year to new jobs for the last 3 or 4 so maybe that is the issue. In any case, anyone who thinks he is brought anywhere to do anything but recruit is just kidding themselves. As to the AD situation, do you think anyone outside of a small SJU circle knows or even cares and if you think any recruit cares, you are delusional. Fact, we lost to the teams we lost to last year because that was the talent we had, period. Even more funny, no one talks about the games we hung in against very good teams, games where we fought back in the second half from double digit deficits against good teams even after it was obvious the season record wise was in the toilet; a clear reflection of the coaches and players dedication and commitment regardless of how much table sitting was done. Mullin should and will get from knowledgeable "critics" the 3-5 years necessary to show what he can do, as every EXPERIENCED VETERAN coach rightfully gets when coming new into a program in the sh..ter. Unfortunately, I guess, many fans will not award him that luxury. I imagine Mullin and co. don't really care, they are too busy working.

"I imagine Mullin and co. don't really care, they are too busy working."[/quote]

See that last sentence is MY issue. This is just my interpretation, which you are no one really has to agree with but something I am entitled to. It looked to me from my couch and occasionally the MSG stands that this whole thing was going to be harder than he thought. Or that maybe he knew last year was going to be a disaster so he basically removed himself from it. Either way it did enter my mind the possibility of him bolting in a couple of years because this thing was going to be more difficult than he imagined. If this scenario did play out that would really be the only thing that would put shade on his legacy. If he rolled up his sleeves and lost 15 games every year I personally would just be happy he gave it a shot. He simply did not look the part of a coach last year. Which was really surprising to me. That is really the only thing I really hope changes next year. For me anyway, any success would be gravy.

Again this is just one man's (admittedly a great man's) take, observation, fear about last year.

 

[bk8664]

-

 

[bk8664]

we are sju,
Yes, we get it how you feel. Thanks for reminding us for the umpteenth time.

 

[logen]

So Lavin gets a complete pass because you hated Roberts .....

Roberts had a tougher job than the TV Announcer when hired.

Roberts was the wrong person to be hired for the St. John's job after Jarvis. Thank you Father Harrington. Notwithstanding that fact, Roberts took over under far worse conditions than the TV Announcer did.

Roberts was hired with the stench of the Pittsburgh headline scandal and only 4 scholarship players on his roster causing him to use a walk on in his rotation (anyone recall the walk-on's name?). The NCAA announced sanctions against St.Johns before his first early signing period with competing coaches stressing to recruits that StJohn's was on NCAA probation. It has been reported that Harrington limited Roberts' budget for assistants and travel.

The TV Announcer took over the StJohn's program with a bumped up budget, and a full roster of talented seniors. "Lav" never had to deal with NCAA probation or a limited budget.

Lavin was not a great coach. I don't think you will find anyone who will disagree with that. He was also a self promoter and a Drama Queen.
HOWEVER. Would you have bet the kids college fund Norm would have gotten the Hardy team to the tourney? Would have been more difficult with Hardy and Brownlee coming off the bench , no?

Agree that it was highly unlikely that Norm would have gotten that team to the tourney. But don't think Otis was saying that Norm was a better coach or that he would have even gotten that team to the tourney. Just that Norm came in under far far more difficult circumstances than Lavin did. I would have to agree with that.

Time to get back to the Mullin era. Norm and Lav coached in the old Big East which was a completely different animal. Last year was an irrelevant wash. I think, looking back at past Mullin observations here during the season, many felt the same way Slice may have felt which may have led to this strange parting of ways between two old friends. One was (a) you hired me to be your associate "head coach" then (b) you hire your west coast friend's son to be the junior associate head coach. Then you bring in another friend to be your advisor and mostly confer with him during games when not sitting on the scorers table. Regardless of the great salary and all the question became "what the fck am I needed here for?". Bottom line is this: this Slice situation, not having an AD as a boss and last year's OJT disaster will put Mullin under more scrutiny in year two than most of us expected. Where 16 wins would have been acceptable and no post season now would be deemed a poor showing by most critics. In this 10 team Big East Mullin needs to win at least 18 games for future recruits to be convinced that they can progress. Our inexperienced staff need to pull some rabbits out of their asses and our young players need to show considerable progress by Big East regular season. The days of losing by 30 points to D3 teams and the Sisters of the Lady of the Lake must be over.

Curious as to what "critics" you refer to. Knowledgeable people know this is a multi-year project. Funny, you go from calling last year an irrelevant wash right to more Mullin bashing. Future recruits are fine, it is unrealistic fans who have a problem. More funny, many on this board fell over themselves to predict a disaster last year record wise and when it happened couldn't turn on Mullin quick enough. There is a learning curve for anyone coming into any completely new job with ZERO experience but evidently Mullin had to come in as the second coming of Red Auerbach and John Wooden from jump street for some of you. The Slice situation, as you put it, is that the guy has jumped year to year to new jobs for the last 3 or 4 so maybe that is the issue. In any case, anyone who thinks he is brought anywhere to do anything but recruit is just kidding themselves. As to the AD situation, do you think anyone outside of a small SJU circle knows or even cares and if you think any recruit cares, you are delusional. Fact, we lost to the teams we lost to last year because that was the talent we had, period. Even more funny, no one talks about the games we hung in against very good teams, games where we fought back in the second half from double digit deficits against good teams even after it was obvious the season record wise was in the toilet; a clear reflection of the coaches and players dedication and commitment regardless of how much table sitting was done. Mullin should and will get from knowledgeable "critics" the 3-5 years necessary to show what he can do, as every EXPERIENCED VETERAN coach rightfully gets when coming new into a program in the sh..ter. Unfortunately, I guess, many fans will not award him that luxury. I imagine Mullin and co. don't really care, they are too busy working.

"I imagine Mullin and co. don't really care, they are too busy working."

See that last sentence is MY issue. This is just my interpretation, which you are no one really has to agree with but something I am entitled to. It looked to me from my couch and occasionally the MSG stands that this whole thing was going to be harder than he thought. Or that maybe he knew last year was going to be a disaster so he basically removed himself from it. Either way it did enter my mind the possibility of him bolting in a couple of years because this thing was going to be more difficult than he imagined. If this scenario did play out that would really be the only thing that would put shade on his legacy. If he rolled up his sleeves and lost 15 games every year I personally would just be happy he gave it a shot. He simply did not look the part of a coach last year. Which was really surprising to me. That is really the only thing I really hope changes next year. For me anyway, any success would be gravy.

Again this is just one man's (admittedly a great man's) take, observation, fear about last year.[/quote]

So here is MY issue; what in the heck does a coach look like? It is very well documented Al McGuire didn't even know the names of many of his players and missed more practices than he attended. John Wooden very rarely called times out and almost never showed emotion. Bobby Knight, well, was Bobby Knight. Bob Huggins dresses like Bob Huggins and Jay Wright dresses like Jay Wright. Every coach is different and each is entitled to do it their way; that Mullin needs some time to figure out "his way" is not only understandable but should be expected; he NEVER did it before so of course he has some learning to do.
But what impresses me most is the arrogance required for even a self proclaimed great man to judge another's commitment and intentions from their couch and an occasional seat at MSG. With that kind of insight available to you without ever even speaking to the man shows an incredible ability to judge the most private aspects of human behavior, motivation and future intentions. You should truly be using it to save mankind from itself not wasting it merely judging basketball coaches.
But I do respect your right to have and express your opinions; I am a bit curious as to your reaction to someone doing as in depth an analysis and interpretation of your very being from your posts here. I'd volunteer, but coming from one who also has a rather large ego, you are in a class by yourself.

 

[we are sju]

So Lavin gets a complete pass because you hated Roberts .....

Roberts had a tougher job than the TV Announcer when hired.

Roberts was the wrong person to be hired for the St. John's job after Jarvis. Thank you Father Harrington. Notwithstanding that fact, Roberts took over under far worse conditions than the TV Announcer did.

Roberts was hired with the stench of the Pittsburgh headline scandal and only 4 scholarship players on his roster causing him to use a walk on in his rotation (anyone recall the walk-on's name?). The NCAA announced sanctions against St.Johns before his first early signing period with competing coaches stressing to recruits that StJohn's was on NCAA probation. It has been reported that Harrington limited Roberts' budget for assistants and travel.

The TV Announcer took over the StJohn's program with a bumped up budget, and a full roster of talented seniors. "Lav" never had to deal with NCAA probation or a limited budget.

Lavin was not a great coach. I don't think you will find anyone who will disagree with that. He was also a self promoter and a Drama Queen.
HOWEVER. Would you have bet the kids college fund Norm would have gotten the Hardy team to the tourney? Would have been more difficult with Hardy and Brownlee coming off the bench , no?

Agree that it was highly unlikely that Norm would have gotten that team to the tourney. But don't think Otis was saying that Norm was a better coach or that he would have even gotten that team to the tourney. Just that Norm came in under far far more difficult circumstances than Lavin did. I would have to agree with that.

Time to get back to the Mullin era. Norm and Lav coached in the old Big East which was a completely different animal. Last year was an irrelevant wash. I think, looking back at past Mullin observations here during the season, many felt the same way Slice may have felt which may have led to this strange parting of ways between two old friends. One was (a) you hired me to be your associate "head coach" then (b) you hire your west coast friend's son to be the junior associate head coach. Then you bring in another friend to be your advisor and mostly confer with him during games when not sitting on the scorers table. Regardless of the great salary and all the question became "what the fck am I needed here for?". Bottom line is this: this Slice situation, not having an AD as a boss and last year's OJT disaster will put Mullin under more scrutiny in year two than most of us expected. Where 16 wins would have been acceptable and no post season now would be deemed a poor showing by most critics. In this 10 team Big East Mullin needs to win at least 18 games for future recruits to be convinced that they can progress. Our inexperienced staff need to pull some rabbits out of their asses and our young players need to show considerable progress by Big East regular season. The days of losing by 30 points to D3 teams and the Sisters of the Lady of the Lake must be over.

Curious as to what "critics" you refer to. Knowledgeable people know this is a multi-year project. Funny, you go from calling last year an irrelevant wash right to more Mullin bashing. Future recruits are fine, it is unrealistic fans who have a problem. More funny, many on this board fell over themselves to predict a disaster last year record wise and when it happened couldn't turn on Mullin quick enough. There is a learning curve for anyone coming into any completely new job with ZERO experience but evidently Mullin had to come in as the second coming of Red Auerbach and John Wooden from jump street for some of you. The Slice situation, as you put it, is that the guy has jumped year to year to new jobs for the last 3 or 4 so maybe that is the issue. In any case, anyone who thinks he is brought anywhere to do anything but recruit is just kidding themselves. As to the AD situation, do you think anyone outside of a small SJU circle knows or even cares and if you think any recruit cares, you are delusional. Fact, we lost to the teams we lost to last year because that was the talent we had, period. Even more funny, no one talks about the games we hung in against very good teams, games where we fought back in the second half from double digit deficits against good teams even after it was obvious the season record wise was in the toilet; a clear reflection of the coaches and players dedication and commitment regardless of how much table sitting was done. Mullin should and will get from knowledgeable "critics" the 3-5 years necessary to show what he can do, as every EXPERIENCED VETERAN coach rightfully gets when coming new into a program in the sh..ter. Unfortunately, I guess, many fans will not award him that luxury. I imagine Mullin and co. don't really care, they are too busy working.

"I imagine Mullin and co. don't really care, they are too busy working."

See that last sentence is MY issue. This is just my interpretation, which you are no one really has to agree with but something I am entitled to. It looked to me from my couch and occasionally the MSG stands that this whole thing was going to be harder than he thought. Or that maybe he knew last year was going to be a disaster so he basically removed himself from it. Either way it did enter my mind the possibility of him bolting in a couple of years because this thing was going to be more difficult than he imagined. If this scenario did play out that would really be the only thing that would put shade on his legacy. If he rolled up his sleeves and lost 15 games every year I personally would just be happy he gave it a shot. He simply did not look the part of a coach last year. Which was really surprising to me. That is really the only thing I really hope changes next year. For me anyway, any success would be gravy.

Again this is just one man's (admittedly a great man's) take, observation, fear about last year.

So here is MY issue; what in the heck does a coach look like? It is very well documented Al McGuire didn't even know the names of many of his players and missed more practices than he attended. John Wooden very rarely called times out and almost never showed emotion. Bobby Knight, well, was Bobby Knight. Bob Huggins dresses like Bob Huggins and Jay Wright dresses like Jay Wright. Every coach is different and each is entitled to do it their way; that Mullin needs some time to figure out "his way" is not only understandable but should be expected; he NEVER did it before so of course he has some learning to do.
But what impresses me most is the arrogance required for even a self proclaimed great man to judge another's commitment and intentions from their couch and an occasional seat at MSG. With that kind of insight available to you without ever even speaking to the man shows an incredible ability to judge the most private aspects of human behavior, motivation and future intentions. You should truly be using it to save mankind from itself not wasting it merely judging basketball coaches.
But I do respect your right to have and express your opinions; I am a bit curious as to your reaction to someone doing as in depth an analysis and interpretation of your very being from your posts here. I'd volunteer, but coming from one who also has a rather large ego, you are in a class by yourself.[/quote]

Not how he dresses didn't care or ever say anything about Lavin in that regards either. I honestly don't care where he sits either. And maybe if any other coach had relinquished the dry board I would have never noticed. But because it was Chris Mullin and you couldn't fairly judge him on what was happening on the court, the Time Outs were watched more closely. And fair or not if he had a George Blaney type old guy with ruddy cheeks and Rosacea no one would have probably said anything. I wouldn't have.

Maybe it is me, maybe I thought he would come in and look like he was sitting there for the last 15 years and if it was anyone else I wouldn't have paid attention to what they were doing during TO's. But I did and it looked...off.

Believe me I hope we are discussing anything else but this next year.

 

[Sherman Sheridan & Grant]

Wow Logen, We Are SJU
Such intense at times rambling and confusing, other times salient and insightful
But
a bit TOO MUCH
No? Yes?
I opened the topic to relax and enjoy
Not have my brains stretched.

Anyway - yes BK8664, some of us post repetituously
I among them
So here:

We have a whole lotta love shaking on
A lot to look forward to
The future is bright
And the future is already here
Let's enjoy it.

 

[simplyred]

I like short posts. If they are long, I read a couple of sentences and then move on. I have a very small brain. Thank you to those posters who keep it short. I prefer repetitious over verbose.

 

[bamafan]

I like short posts. If they are long, I read a couple of sentences and then move on. I have a very small brain. Thank you to those posters who keep it short. I prefer repetitious over verbose.

Your welcome.
To: we are sju- if Mo thinks it is harder than he expected he does not have to leave in a few years he can just hire a more experienced X and Os coach if St. Jean isn't working out. He has already shown he can get some very good talent here.

 

[L J S A]

I agree, Mike Dunlap did a great job of getting that senior crew to the tourney. And, Lavin did a nice job talking to the media.

And Mike Dunlap did a bang up job on his own the next year when Lavin was out with Cancer.

Surely you understand the difference experienced upperclassman make.[/quote]

He'd never admit it -- mostly because Lavin chatted him up once and made him feel important, while Dunlap was off doing more important things -- implementing the defense that gave us our most exciting season in ages, for instance.

 

[austour]

Regarding that long thread of quotes that SimplyRed (awful band by the way) won't read someone asked how you know what a coach looks like. Well he looks like a guy that you might have seen successfully coaching before. In the same thread I believe the same poster stated that Mullin was coming into a completely new job with ZERO experience (emphasis his). I have managed to stay gainfully employed by avoiding hiring folks for much lower paying jobs if they have ZERO experience, but hey, that's me. That's the crux of this debate, do you believe that simply because Mullin was a transcendent talent with high BB IQ and the greatest player in STJ history he can become a coach and how long are you willing to give him. In this debate I agree with the aforementioned poster that 1 year is certainly not enough time though I agree with the other that there may have been some warning signs. Getting the team over .500 this coming year will do a lot to appease both sides methinks.

 

[Ray Morgan]

Instead of analyzing Mullin's body language, it's probably better to listen to his own analysis of what he brings to the table and what his goals are for the program. From day one, Mullin's stated selling point is that he can turn very talented players into NBA ready players. Think of SJU as the college version of the D League. The recruiting pitch, and it's a strong and valid one, is that great talent can get hands on player development from 2 hall of fame players, one of whom was also a top level NBA front office executive. Getting the talent to come here will make Mullin's transition to coaching easier. Why does great talent need player development? Because you need more than raw talent to make the NBA. Most top level recruits are great athletes, but need to hone their skill sets. Mull and Rich can help them do that.

Mullin will look a lot smarter once he has a lot of talent on the roster. My guess is he will become far more engaged on the sidelines in the coming season. I would still like an experienced bench coach on the sidelines to ease his transition. I guess Slice wasn't that guy. Neither is Richmond. In the end, Mullin's success will depend on the recruits he brings in, and his reputation enhanced as they end up with professional careers. He never said he was coming here to teach the match up zone or the box and one, none of which will help you in the NBA. In his own words, he will not emphasize complex offensive and defensive sets, but focus on player development.