Zags: St. John's & Slice Part Ways

Regarding that long thread of quotes that SimplyRed (awful band by the way) won't read someone asked how you know what a coach looks like. Well he looks like a guy that you might have seen successfully coaching before. In the same thread I believe the same poster stated that Mullin was coming into a completely new job with ZERO experience (emphasis his). I have managed to stay gainfully employed by avoiding hiring folks for much lower paying jobs if they have ZERO experience, but hey, that's me. That's the crux of this debate, do you believe that simply because Mullin was a transcendent talent with high BB IQ and the greatest player in STJ history he can become a coach and how long are you willing to give him. In this debate I agree with the aforementioned poster that 1 year is certainly not enough time though I agree with the other that there may have been some warning signs. Getting the team over .500 this coming year will do a lot to appease both sides methinks.
Click to expand...

Didn't think of the band when I chose the name. It actually evolved. Started as Simply RD (my initials) on another site and evolved into one word.

As for Mullin, I wish him all the success in the world. Apart from being a fan of his, we have mutual friends. Though I don't know him personally, there is still somewhat of a personal connection. Last year was very disappointing---but understandable. I didn't like the optics of him sitting on the table (seem lackadaisical and it was rude to the guy on the other side of the table). Also would have preferred that he be more engaged in the huddle but understood that he has never coached before.

I think some of the criticism is a bit premature, but some of the praise is also over the top. I will admit, I love the way recruiting has been going and I hope it continues on that trajectory. Lavin started strong and then it fell off. I'm hoping that doesn't happen again. As for losing Slice, it doesn't look good but I think we will be ok without him.

Anyway, that was way too long a post after what I said in my previous one.
 
Regarding that long thread of quotes that SimplyRed (awful band by the way) won't read someone asked how you know what a coach looks like. Well he looks like a guy that you might have seen successfully coaching before. In the same thread I believe the same poster stated that Mullin was coming into a completely new job with ZERO experience (emphasis his). I have managed to stay gainfully employed by avoiding hiring folks for much lower paying jobs if they have ZERO experience, but hey, that's me. That's the crux of this debate, do you believe that simply because Mullin was a transcendent talent with high BB IQ and the greatest player in STJ history he can become a coach and how long are you willing to give him. In this debate I agree with the aforementioned poster that 1 year is certainly not enough time though I agree with the other that there may have been some warning signs. Getting the team over .500 this coming year will do a lot to appease both sides methinks.
Click to expand...

Didn't think of the band when I chose the name. It actually evolved. Started as Simply RD (my initials) on another site and evolved into one word.

As for Mullin, I wish him all the success in the world. Apart from being a fan of his, we have mutual friends. Though I don't know him personally, there is still somewhat of a personal connection. Last year was very disappointing---but understandable. I didn't like the optics of him sitting on the table (seem lackadaisical and it was rude to the guy on the other side of the table). Also would have preferred that he be more engaged in the huddle but understood that he has never coached before.

I think some of the criticism is a bit premature, but some of the praise is also over the top. I will admit, I love the way recruiting has been going and I hope it continues on that trajectory. Lavin started strong and then it fell off. I'm hoping that doesn't happen again. As for losing Slice, it doesn't look good but I think we will be ok without him.
Click to expand...

tl;dr
 
So Lavin gets a complete pass because you hated Roberts .....
Click to expand...

Roberts had a tougher job than the TV Announcer when hired.

Roberts was the wrong person to be hired for the St. John's job after Jarvis. Thank you Father Harrington. Notwithstanding that fact, Roberts took over under far worse conditions than the TV Announcer did.

Roberts was hired with the stench of the Pittsburgh headline scandal and only 4 scholarship players on his roster causing him to use a walk on in his rotation (anyone recall the walk-on's name?). The NCAA announced sanctions against St.Johns before his first early signing period with competing coaches stressing to recruits that StJohn's was on NCAA probation. It has been reported that Harrington limited Roberts' budget for assistants and travel.

The TV Announcer took over the StJohn's program with a bumped up budget, and a full roster of talented seniors. "Lav" never had to deal with NCAA probation or a limited budget.
Click to expand...

Lavin was not a great coach. I don't think you will find anyone who will disagree with that. He was also a self promoter and a Drama Queen.
HOWEVER. Would you have bet the kids college fund Norm would have gotten the Hardy team to the tourney? Would have been more difficult with Hardy and Brownlee coming off the bench , no?
Click to expand...

Agree that it was highly unlikely that Norm would have gotten that team to the tourney. But don't think Otis was saying that Norm was a better coach or that he would have even gotten that team to the tourney. Just that Norm came in under far far more difficult circumstances than Lavin did. I would have to agree with that.
Click to expand...

Time to get back to the Mullin era. Norm and Lav coached in the old Big East which was a completely different animal. Last year was an irrelevant wash. I think, looking back at past Mullin observations here during the season, many felt the same way Slice may have felt which may have led to this strange parting of ways between two old friends. One was (a) you hired me to be your associate "head coach" then (b) you hire your west coast friend's son to be the junior associate head coach. Then you bring in another friend to be your advisor and mostly confer with him during games when not sitting on the scorers table. Regardless of the great salary and all the question became "what the fck am I needed here for?". Bottom line is this: this Slice situation, not having an AD as a boss and last year's OJT disaster will put Mullin under more scrutiny in year two than most of us expected. Where 16 wins would have been acceptable and no post season now would be deemed a poor showing by most critics. In this 10 team Big East Mullin needs to win at least 18 games for future recruits to be convinced that they can progress. Our inexperienced staff need to pull some rabbits out of their asses and our young players need to show considerable progress by Big East regular season. The days of losing by 30 points to D3 teams and the Sisters of the Lady of the Lake must be over.
Click to expand...

Curious as to what "critics" you refer to. Knowledgeable people know this is a multi-year project. Funny, you go from calling last year an irrelevant wash right to more Mullin bashing. Future recruits are fine, it is unrealistic fans who have a problem. More funny, many on this board fell over themselves to predict a disaster last year record wise and when it happened couldn't turn on Mullin quick enough. There is a learning curve for anyone coming into any completely new job with ZERO experience but evidently Mullin had to come in as the second coming of Red Auerbach and John Wooden from jump street for some of you. The Slice situation, as you put it, is that the guy has jumped year to year to new jobs for the last 3 or 4 so maybe that is the issue. In any case, anyone who thinks he is brought anywhere to do anything but recruit is just kidding themselves. As to the AD situation, do you think anyone outside of a small SJU circle knows or even cares and if you think any recruit cares, you are delusional. Fact, we lost to the teams we lost to last year because that was the talent we had, period. Even more funny, no one talks about the games we hung in against very good teams, games where we fought back in the second half from double digit deficits against good teams even after it was obvious the season record wise was in the toilet; a clear reflection of the coaches and players dedication and commitment regardless of how much table sitting was done. Mullin should and will get from knowledgeable "critics" the 3-5 years necessary to show what he can do, as every EXPERIENCED VETERAN coach rightfully gets when coming new into a program in the sh..ter. Unfortunately, I guess, many fans will not award him that luxury. I imagine Mullin and co. don't really care, they are too busy working.
Click to expand...

Well said and well intentioned Logen. However, Chris doesn't need defending after one year. Thus, I made it clear, I thought, that last year was irrelevant. My putting Slice's thoughts which "may have" led to the thread topic, i.e., Slice and St. John's Parting Ways, was also made obvious when I stated " I think, looking back at past Mullin observations here during the season, many felt the same way Slice may have felt".
Now, when you consider that I did not make one single post this past season since I was not on this board, when I refer to some of the critics I obviously am referring to those that did post certain observations. That I referenced the table sitting, the white board issue, Slice seemingly out of the coaching circle, yapping with Mitch, the shoes, the disinterest by Mullin during time outs, etc. were all made by you guys. Everyone here is a critic. Everyone has an opinion. All positions are debatable. That is what we obviously do here unless you have dedicated yourself to kissing Mullin's ring into eternity because his name is Chris Mullin.
Yes, as I said, last year was a wash. I also said in a previous thread about the 16-17 season that our team and coaches lost 10 games by less than 10 points and most of that was on pure inspiration and not talent. That inspiration came from the staff. We now have more 4 and 3 star players than any team we have had in the past 20 years. We are finally not starting threads about walk ons and seven (7) players from last year played or practiced together all of whom are 3 and 4* recruits. Add a great recruiting class and if you think even the great Chris Mullin will get further passes if we lose to another D3 team then I wager your long term idealism will be put to test.
Finally, this thread was about Slice and Mullin heading for the big DeeVorce after one year. The lawyers are drawing up the papers and it is a little messy. Behind closed doors there is a lot of "he said, she said" taking place. I agree with you 100% that the big news when Mullin made Slice his first call when he got the St. John's gig was his reputation as a recruiting specialist from his days at Pitt which spanned a few years, but if you think that Mullin said to Slice, in offering him the "associate" HC position, all I want you to do is recruit then you are not being realistic.
 
Regarding that long thread of quotes that SimplyRed (awful band by the way) won't read someone asked how you know what a coach looks like. Well he looks like a guy that you might have seen successfully coaching before. In the same thread I believe the same poster stated that Mullin was coming into a completely new job with ZERO experience (emphasis his). I have managed to stay gainfully employed by avoiding hiring folks for much lower paying jobs if they have ZERO experience, but hey, that's me. That's the crux of this debate, do you believe that simply because Mullin was a transcendent talent with high BB IQ and the greatest player in STJ history he can become a coach and how long are you willing to give him. In this debate I agree with the aforementioned poster that 1 year is certainly not enough time though I agree with the other that there may have been some warning signs. Getting the team over .500 this coming year will do a lot to appease both sides methinks.
Click to expand...

Didn't think of the band when I chose the name. It actually evolved. Started as Simply RD (my initials) on another site and evolved into one word.

As for Mullin, I wish him all the success in the world. Apart from being a fan of his, we have mutual friends. Though I don't know him personally, there is still somewhat of a personal connection. Last year was very disappointing---but understandable. I didn't like the optics of him sitting on the table (seem lackadaisical and it was rude to the guy on the other side of the table). Also would have preferred that he be more engaged in the huddle but understood that he has never coached before.

I think some of the criticism is a bit premature, but some of the praise is also over the top. I will admit, I love the way recruiting has been going and I hope it continues on that trajectory. Lavin started strong and then it fell off. I'm hoping that doesn't happen again. As for losing Slice, it doesn't look good but I think we will be ok without him.

Anyway, that was way too long a post after what I said in my previous one.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone, including myself, has praised Mullin as a coach. I don't think many, if any, have even mentioned the recruiting successes without the caveat that until there are results on the court it means little except to generate legitimate hope. IMO, Mullin did some good things for a first year coach and certainly some things that you hope he improves on. I am not praising Mullin by any means yet but IMO if there ever was a season in which N/A applied to a coaching evaluation, that was it.
Just to kill two birds, Austor, you're points about not hiring someone with ZERO (my emphasis) experience are perfectly valid but the fact is, SJU DID hire him and any evaluation has to done in that light. IMO, by and large, it was not, nor was the lack of talent and between season practice time given its due.
 
I don't care if a team goes 0-30, or 30-0, if you pay attention there are signs of whether the coach is a great coach or not.

For the brief record, Wooden philosophically felt timeouts were a sign of weakness, but when he did call one, he wasn't disengaged. His practices were legendary in efficiency that the goal was not to waste a single minute. He felt if the team was prepared enough in practice, then in game coaching was minimal. He felt coaches who overcoached in games did not prepare their teams well enough. That isn't to say though, that he stood by idly, and fully took credit for their loss to David Thompson in the NCAA's for a tactical error on his part alone.
 
I predict that Chris is going to look like a much improved coach(notwithstanding his body language) with a competent point guard to run the show and with kids that can put the ball in the basket.
 
... Finally, this thread was about Slice and Mullin heading for the big DeeVorce after one year. The lawyers are drawing up the papers and it is a little messy. Behind closed doors there is a lot of "he said, she said" taking place. I agree with you 100% that the big news when Mullin made Slice his first call when he got the St. John's gig was his reputation as a recruiting specialist from his days at Pitt which spanned a few years, but if you think that Mullin said to Slice, in offering him the "associate" HC position, all I want you to do is recruit then you are not being realistic.
Click to expand...

"A little messy" indeed. Last week, someone in the know told me that the situation had gotten "very ugly." (That's all he would say.)
 
I predict that Chris is going to look like a much improved coach(notwithstanding his body language) with a competent point guard to run the show and with kids that can put the ball in the basket.
Click to expand...

Maybe with Slice out of the way Mullin will be more assertive.
 
Am I wrong that the fact that there is a buyout would indicate the school wants him out. If he was leaving by his own volition why would the school be forced to make a buyout to him?
 
Am I wrong that the fact that there is a buyout would indicate the school wants him out. If he was leaving by his own volition why would the school be forced to make a buyout to him?
Click to expand...

You are correct it appears.
 
Regarding that long thread of quotes that SimplyRed (awful band by the way) won't read someone asked how you know what a coach looks like. Well he looks like a guy that you might have seen successfully coaching before. In the same thread I believe the same poster stated that Mullin was coming into a completely new job with ZERO experience (emphasis his). I have managed to stay gainfully employed by avoiding hiring folks for much lower paying jobs if they have ZERO experience, but hey, that's me. That's the crux of this debate, do you believe that simply because Mullin was a transcendent talent with high BB IQ and the greatest player in STJ history he can become a coach and how long are you willing to give him. In this debate I agree with the aforementioned poster that 1 year is certainly not enough time though I agree with the other that there may have been some warning signs. Getting the team over .500 this coming year will do a lot to appease both sides methinks.
Click to expand...

You don't mean .500 in Big East play do you? Because that would be completely unrealistic, IMO.

I think the 2014-15 Seton Hall team isn't a bad benchmark for us this coming year. They had an outstanding incoming freshman class of Whitehead, Carrington, Delgado, Rodriguez, plus they returned Sterling Gibbs and Brandon Mobley. And a coach with some experience. They finished 6-12 in Big East play and 16-15 overall.

If we can pull off something similar to that, and everyone returns for the 2017 season, I'll be a happy camper.
 
Am I wrong that the fact that there is a buyout would indicate the school wants him out. If he was leaving by his own volition why would the school be forced to make a buyout to him?
Click to expand...

You are correct it appears.
Click to expand...

True ,I believed I brought up to one of our Attys a few days ago, why the buy out if he was leaving on his own. Do not know if we know 100% the reason which As you pt out would make a big difference
 
Instead of analyzing Mullin's body language, it's probably better to listen to his own analysis of what he brings to the table and what his goals are for the program. From day one, Mullin's stated selling point is that he can turn very talented players into NBA ready players. Think of SJU as the college version of the D League. The recruiting pitch, and it's a strong and valid one, is that great talent can get hands on player development from 2 hall of fame players, one of whom was also a top level NBA front office executive. Getting the talent to come here will make Mullin's transition to coaching easier. Why does great talent need player development? Because you need more than raw talent to make the NBA. Most top level recruits are great athletes, but need to hone their skill sets. Mull and Rich can help them do that.

Mullin will look a lot smarter once he has a lot of talent on the roster. My guess is he will become far more engaged on the sidelines in the coming season. I would still like an experienced bench coach on the sidelines to ease his transition. I guess Slice wasn't that guy. Neither is Richmond. In the end, Mullin's success will depend on the recruits he brings in, and his reputation enhanced as they end up with professional careers. He never said he was coming here to teach the match up zone or the box and one, none of which will help you in the NBA. In his own words, he will not emphasize complex offensive and defensive sets, but focus on player development.
Click to expand...

I like seeing our players in the NBA, but not as much as I enjoy winning seasons. We all know that the coaches at the college level impact games - see Cuse without JB on sideline versus Cuse with JB.

I agree with all your points. And we are seeing promising recruits coming on board. The question is how will the talent and player development translate to wins without well prepared game plans and in game adjustments. I'm not inferring that this staff won't provide it. I'm hopeful that they will excel in this area as they gain experience coaching at the college level.

It will take talent, player development and excellent game day coaching to win in the league.
 
... Finally, this thread was about Slice and Mullin heading for the big DeeVorce after one year. The lawyers are drawing up the papers and it is a little messy. Behind closed doors there is a lot of "he said, she said" taking place. I agree with you 100% that the big news when Mullin made Slice his first call when he got the St. John's gig was his reputation as a recruiting specialist from his days at Pitt which spanned a few years, but if you think that Mullin said to Slice, in offering him the "associate" HC position, all I want you to do is recruit then you are not being realistic.
Click to expand...

"A little messy" indeed. Last week, someone in the know told me that the situation had gotten "very ugly." (That's all he would say.)
Click to expand...

Ran into a friend today who had lunch w/him. He said same thing...things got ugly...wouldn't share details for obvious reasons...obviously he was only getting one side of story but echoed what many have already stated re: the relationship
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top