Worst losses ever

[Section3]

I think it was DLos jr year we were a 1 seed and got killed the first round of the NIT.. Not the worse loss but pretty bad.

Robert Morris I believe. Where my main man Rasheem Dunn, who got way to much hate on this board, is averaging almost 13PPG while shooting nearly 50% from 3. Great young man and solid ballplayer. Sure wish we still had him. 

I was big fan of Dunn - all the qualities you note above are true (although his current 3 point % is based on a very small sample size of 17 with 1 or 2 games skewing it higher). Nonetheless, the point is a good one. We miss his defense, ability to get to the rim (we have no one who can get there without having to make an acrobatic attempt) and Leadership. We played with a “chip on our shoulder” last year and he was a big part of it along with Posh and Wusu. IMO we aren’t playing with that “chip” any longer.

Hopefully, a loss like this will wake some folks up and they will realize that the preseason BE projections don’t count at the end of the year. Also, to be fair (and I have said this recently), the same despair existed at this time last year and even 6 games into the BE season. Let’s hope for the same transformation with a stronger finish. I remain cautiously hopeful and believe it can happen but will require attitude, performance and role adjustments.

 

[beast of the east]

I think it was DLos jr year we were a 1 seed and got killed the first round of the NIT.. Not the worse loss but pretty bad.

Robert Morris I believe. Where my main man Rasheem Dunn, who got way to much hate on this board, is averaging almost 13PPG while shooting nearly 50% from 3. Great young man and solid ballplayer. Sure wish we still had him. 

I was big fan of Dunn - all the qualities you note above are true (although his current 3 point % is based on a very small sample size of 17 with 1 or 2 games skewing it higher). Nonetheless, the point is a good one. We miss his defense, ability to get to the rim (we have no one who can get there without having to make an acrobatic attempt) and Leadership. We played with a “chip on our shoulder” last year and he was a big part of it along with Posh and Wusu. IMO we aren’t playing with that “chip” any longer.

Hopefully, a loss like this will wake some folks up and they will realize that the preseason BE projections don’t count at the end of the year. Also, to be fair (and I have said this recently), the same despair existed at this time last year and even 6 games into the BE season. Let’s hope for the same transformation with a stronger finish. I remain cautiously hopeful and believe it can happen but will require attitude, performance and role adjustments.

Who do you think has a higher ceiling, Dunn or Pinzon?   Could recruiting of Pinzon influenced Dunn to leave on his own, fearing cut in miinutes?

 

[Section3]

I think it was DLos jr year we were a 1 seed and got killed the first round of the NIT.. Not the worse loss but pretty bad.

Robert Morris I believe. Where my main man Rasheem Dunn, who got way to much hate on this board, is averaging almost 13PPG while shooting nearly 50% from 3. Great young man and solid ballplayer. Sure wish we still had him. 

I was big fan of Dunn - all the qualities you note above are true (although his current 3 point % is based on a very small sample size of 17 with 1 or 2 games skewing it higher). Nonetheless, the point is a good one. We miss his defense, ability to get to the rim (we have no one who can get there without having to make an acrobatic attempt) and Leadership. We played with a “chip on our shoulder” last year and he was a big part of it along with Posh and Wusu. IMO we aren’t playing with that “chip” any longer.

Hopefully, a loss like this will wake some folks up and they will realize that the preseason BE projections don’t count at the end of the year. Also, to be fair (and I have said this recently), the same despair existed at this time last year and even 6 games into the BE season. Let’s hope for the same transformation with a stronger finish. I remain cautiously hopeful and believe it can happen but will require attitude, performance and role adjustments.

Who do you think has a higher ceiling, Dunn or Pinzon?   Could recruiting of Pinzon influenced Dunn to leave on his own, fearing cut in miinutes?

Valid point. I take Pinzon. My point is that we are missing those qualities that Dunn brought to the table.

EDIT: However, knowing what I know now, I take Dunn over Smith

 

[SLYFOXX1968]

I don’t think it’s a question of Dunn or Pinzon . More accurately it would be Dunn or Smith . I would take Dunn .   Dunn or Mathis , I would take Dunn. . Coburn isn’t in the Mix as he was a late and unexpected addition .       Worst losses ever ?   I would say losing to Penn back in the late 70’s that denied us the Final 4 .  We had just beaten a very good Rutgers team to get to the final 8 .  Wasn’t one of Louie’s best games .           Of course , the Artest , Barkley team losing to Ohio State with a Final 4 berth on the line  was a awful loss too.    I picked games that actually denied us a better finish , not losing to cupcakes over the last 20 years or so . 

 

[monte]

I think it was DLos jr year we were a 1 seed and got killed the first round of the NIT.. Not the worse loss but pretty bad.

Robert Morris I believe. Where my main man Rasheem Dunn, who got way to much hate on this board, is averaging almost 13PPG while shooting nearly 50% from 3. Great young man and solid ballplayer. Sure wish we still had him. 

I was big fan of Dunn - all the qualities you note above are true (although his current 3 point % is based on a very small sample size of 17 with 1 or 2 games skewing it higher). Nonetheless, the point is a good one. We miss his defense, ability to get to the rim (we have no one who can get there without having to make an acrobatic attempt) and Leadership. We played with a “chip on our shoulder” last year and he was a big part of it along with Posh and Wusu. IMO we aren’t playing with that “chip” any longer.

Hopefully, a loss like this will wake some folks up and they will realize that the preseason BE projections don’t count at the end of the year. Also, to be fair (and I have said this recently), the same despair existed at this time last year and even 6 games into the BE season. Let’s hope for the same transformation with a stronger finish. I remain cautiously hopeful and believe it can happen but will require attitude, performance and role adjustments.

I don't honestly think it's a matter of a wake  up call Section 3. I just think this team, top to bottom, is short on talent and the players don't compliment each other very well. Without Champ carrying them on his back, with some help from Posh, they are just not a very good team. They don't have the length and speed to allow CMA to implement his 40 minutes of hell, and they don't have many offensive weapons. Stanley and Pinzon are couple of nice young players, and Posh and Wusu are just sophs and will hopefully be here 2 more years. If the staff can back fill with some decent talent, maybe we have a good team next season. But absorbing the loss of Champ won't be easy without picking up one or two really good ballplayers, not a bunch of spare parts like they picked up this year. 

 

[redmannorth]

I don’t think it’s a question of Dunn or Pinzon . More accurately it would be Dunn or Smith . I would take Dunn .   Dunn or Mathis , I would take Dunn. . Coburn isn’t in the Mix as he was a late and unexpected addition .      

So right now there seems to be a consensus that Dunn and Williams is greater than Smith, Mathis and Coburn. We clearly came up with the short end of the stick after last season. Forget the leadership and character that both Dunn and Williams brought to the team. 

 

[MarkRedman]

I don’t think it’s a question of Dunn or Pinzon . More accurately it would be Dunn or Smith . I would take Dunn .   Dunn or Mathis , I would take Dunn. . Coburn isn’t in the Mix as he was a late and unexpected addition .      

So right now there seems to be a consensus that Dunn and Williams is greater than Smith, Mathis and Coburn. We clearly came up with the short end of the stick after last season. Forget the leadership and character that both Dunn and Williams brought to the team. 

To date, Dunn and Williams were more valuable players than Smith, Mathis and Coburn. Add the fact that we also lost Earlington and it is very clear to me that we lost a whole lot more than we gained in terms of the roster turnover from last year to this one.
 

 

[monte]

I don’t think it’s a question of Dunn or Pinzon . More accurately it would be Dunn or Smith . I would take Dunn .   Dunn or Mathis , I would take Dunn. . Coburn isn’t in the Mix as he was a late and unexpected addition .      

So right now there seems to be a consensus that Dunn and Williams is greater than Smith, Mathis and Coburn. We clearly came up with the short end of the stick after last season. Forget the leadership and character that both Dunn and Williams brought to the team. 

The Coburn situation was an unusual one. I thought from the get go that if we got anything from Coburn it was gravy. Others felt that he was going to be a big contributor. We may still get a little something from him, but as others have mentioned, at a certain point, especially if the team is trending in the wrong direction,  he may just pull the plug on basketball and focus on his studies. FWIW, I don't care what a kid does before he gets here or after he leaves, I only care what he does here. And both GWill and Dunn were solid ballplayers for us last year, carried us offensively certain games. We have no one like that this year to take the load off Champ,  and to a lesser degree Posh. 

 

[gonzalo]

[URL]https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/4397123/greg-williams-jr[/URL]

Williams has worst numbers this season with a 5-5 team.

 

[redmannorth]

[URL]https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/4397123/greg-williams-jr[/URL]

Williams has worst numbers this season with a 5-5 team.

no surprise Gonzalo because he is playing a new position that does not suit him. He is not a pg he is a 2 guard that can also play on the wing. IMHO Coach had to be honest with him and tell him that. Williams came from a great family whom I am sure had respect for CMA. Bottom line is you don’t recruit kids once , you re-recruit them at the end of each season and discuss your plan with them going forward. Another great kid that had no business leaving, to date it has not worked out well for either GW or SJU. 

 

[redmannorth]

I don’t think it’s a question of Dunn or Pinzon . More accurately it would be Dunn or Smith . I would take Dunn .   Dunn or Mathis , I would take Dunn. . Coburn isn’t in the Mix as he was a late and unexpected addition .      

So right now there seems to be a consensus that Dunn and Williams is greater than Smith, Mathis and Coburn. We clearly came up with the short end of the stick after last season. Forget the leadership and character that both Dunn and Williams brought to the team. 

To date, Dunn and Williams were more valuable players than Smith, Mathis and Coburn. Add the fact that we also lost Earlington and it is very clear to me that we lost a whole lot more than we gained in terms of the roster turnover from last year to this one.

 

Mark I was only discussing our backcourt wing players. No doubt Earlington and Moore were big losses and were much more valuable than Wheeler, Soriano, Mathis and Nyiewe. If we had Earlington and Moore up front we would have a much better record and played much better in the games we won against patsies. 

 

[Eric]

I think it was just one game before the pitt terrible loss that most were back on board praising wheeler pinzon and several others who played well in THAT game.  Dont let your emotions get crazy from game to game.  Yes this was bad.  But we all know the drill. These same guys you all complain about after this loss after they do well next time im sure I will be reading their praises.  But yes. This was ugly. 

 

[beast of the east]

I liked Dunn and WIlliams as players.  They brought something to the table.  Could I pin hopes of going deeper than round one in the dance with either or both of them.  No.  

Williams and Caraher, in the midst of horrible divisiveness came up with the idea for an SJU scholarship.   CMA loved it, MC loved it, and a generous alum funded it.   Both should be remembered if that was their only contribution.  Both should be proud that they came up with something, SJU listened and responded.

I thought Dunn was a limited player.  High energy, good defender, subpar shooter, poor ballhandler for a point, but overall a positive impact.    If he wanted to stay I'd welcome him, but on the defensive side of the ball, Mathis is at least as good, and a much better slasher, scorer.   I'd still give Smith an incomplete, although in limited action as he settles in, he's a much better shooter than Dunn.

I don't know why anyone would say Williams should get more time playing for a new team, a new position, but at a lower level than Smith, who scored a lot of points in FT action in Vermont, but is playing up a level for a new team (a very new team)

Let's see how this all plays out.
 

 

[Knight]

A good coach can frequently adjust his strategy and style of play to the players available to him.  I have not seen CMA make many adjustments during his tenure.  I hope that the players we have on this roster don’t flee to another programs out of frustration.  I hope Posh stays 4 years.

 

[monte]

I think it was just one game before the pitt terrible loss that most were back on board praising wheeler pinzon and several others who played well in THAT game.  Dont let your emotions get crazy from game to game.  Yes this was bad.  But we all know the drill. These same guys you all complain about after this loss after they do well next time im sure I will be reading their praises.  But yes. This was ugly. 

There are a few different factions on this board. One faction is made up of those who only come on to criticize when things are going bad. Another faction is made up of those who only come on to praise when things are going well. Both those factions have specific agendas IMO. Within the first faction are those who grossly overrate almost every single player on this team, in many cases before even seeing them play. So, based on those completely unrealistic expectations, you have others on the board proclaiming someone like Wheeler, "a huge bust". Fact is, we are expecting more from many of these kids then they are capable of giving. Then, when they don't meet the unrealistic expectations, they are chastised. It's a vicious cycle. 

 

[Eric]

I think it was just one game before the pitt terrible loss that most were back on board praising wheeler pinzon and several others who played well in THAT game.  Dont let your emotions get crazy from game to game.  Yes this was bad.  But we all know the drill. These same guys you all complain about after this loss after they do well next time im sure I will be reading their praises.  But yes. This was ugly. 

There are a few different factions on this board. One faction is made up of those who only come on to criticize when things are going bad. Another faction is made up of those who only come on to praise when things are going well. Both those factions have specific agendas IMO. Within the first faction are those who grossly overrate almost every single player on this team, in many cases before even seeing them play. So, based on those completely unrealistic expectations, you have others on the board proclaiming someone like Wheeler, "a huge bust". Fact is, we are expecting more from many of these kids then they are capable of giving. Then, when they don't meet the unrealistic expectations, they are chastised. It's a vicious cycle. 

agree
 

 

[Section3]

I don’t think it’s a question of Dunn or Pinzon . More accurately it would be Dunn or Smith . I would take Dunn .   Dunn or Mathis , I would take Dunn. . Coburn isn’t in the Mix as he was a late and unexpected addition .       Worst losses ever ?   I would say losing to Penn back in the late 70’s that denied us the Final 4 .  We had just beaten a very good Rutgers team to get to the final 8 .  Wasn’t one of Louie’s best games .           Of course , the Artest , Barkley team losing to Ohio State with a Final 4 berth on the line  was a awful loss too.    I picked games that actually denied us a better finish , not losing to cupcakes over the last 20 years or so . 

Great post and that was the point of my “edited” post. Dunn over Smith (and as you correctly noted, Mathis)…. Re: worst loss, you cited great examples

By the way, I think Pinzon should get more minutes…he is the future and, frankly, has more ability and brings more energy than Smith, Mathis et al

 

[Section3]

[URL]https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/4397123/greg-williams-jr[/URL]

Williams has worst numbers this season with a 5-5 team.

no surprise Gonzalo because he is playing a new position that does not suit him. He is not a pg he is a 2 guard that can also play on the wing. IMHO Coach had to be honest with him and tell him that. Williams came from a great family whom I am sure had respect for CMA. Bottom line is you don’t recruit kids once , you re-recruit them at the end of each season and discuss your plan with them going forward. Another great kid that had no business leaving, to date it has not worked out well for either GW or SJU. 

Agree re: his limited capabilities as a PG…with that said, doesn’t mean that conversation didn’t occur between CMA and CWill….Other than playing close to home, he was better off at SJ….he had more minutes and would have been the starting SG

 

[monte]

I don’t think it’s a question of Dunn or Pinzon . More accurately it would be Dunn or Smith . I would take Dunn .   Dunn or Mathis , I would take Dunn. . Coburn isn’t in the Mix as he was a late and unexpected addition .       Worst losses ever ?   I would say losing to Penn back in the late 70’s that denied us the Final 4 .  We had just beaten a very good Rutgers team to get to the final 8 .  Wasn’t one of Louie’s best games .           Of course , the Artest , Barkley team losing to Ohio State with a Final 4 berth on the line  was a awful loss too.    I picked games that actually denied us a better finish , not losing to cupcakes over the last 20 years or so . 

Great post and that was the point of my “edited” post. Dunn over Smith (and as you correctly noted, Mathis)…. Re: worst loss, you cited great examples

By the way, I think Pinzon should get more minutes…he is the future and, frankly, has more ability and brings more energy than Smith, Mathis et al

I'd also like to see what Pinzon can do with more minutes, but I'm not ready yet  to sacrifice the present for the future. I'm also not convinced that Pinzon is ready for a much heavier load. Now, if it gets to the point that we're pretty much out of contention for a tourney birth(barring a Big East championship), then give the players who are likely to return the bulk of the minutes. 

 

[NCJohnnie]

Section3 wrote:

By the way, I think Pinzon should get more minutes…he is the future and, frankly, has more ability and brings more energy than Smith, Mathis et al

I don't think we can complain about Mathis' energy level. IMHO he plays with as much energy as anyone except perhaps Posh, but  doesn't always play smart.