Don't know about you, but I am not a multi millionaire athlete reaping benefits from the public. And yes, I would gain more respect for athletes standing for our military. So, why isn't this an issue?
The Knee
- Thread starter frank
- Start date
Don't know about you, but I am not a multi millionaire athlete reaping benefits from the public. And yes, I would gain more respect for athletes standing for our military. So, why isn't this an issue?
There is definitely a social contract. But aside from that, if I spend 3 hours in traffic to go to a game then another 45 minutes trying to wade through the parking lot (and another 45+ afterwards) and $thousands on season tickets I (as an entitled old white guy) or even an annoyed black man, did not spend my time and money to be distracted by politics.
The other examples you give are different because if I buy a paper or turn on some brain dead news channel for drones, I am doing so specifically because I expect politics and profiteering social manipulators like Soros or Koch.
And for anyone talking about "silencing" no one ever said anything of the sort. But if I'm in a movie theater with others who paid for a little distracting down time, yeah be silent but on your own time talk as much as you want.
The bigger issue for me is that when guys like you mentioned - Soros and Koch who ultimately wield the sword of celebrity, are doing so for one reason and that is to divide our country and pit people against each other under the guise of freedom of speech all the while silencing and shaming everyone else that isn't 100% towing the party line. (and if they make a shitload of money in the process, good for them right because they are socially responsible or whatever other fairy tale they've invented to make themselves sound good)
redfan259999888
Active member
It's their right to protest the Anthem, well it's the peoples right to protest them.
http://deadline.com/2017/09/redskin...r-trek-discovery-donald-trump-nbc-1202176141/
On a day full of criticism from Donald Trump, political protests, linked arms, players taking a knee or not coming on the field at all during the national anthem, and renewed pleas for unity from the league, NBC and the NFL took a ratings hit on Sunday Night Football.
In metered market numbers, the primetime matchup that saw the Washington Redskins beat the Oakland Raiders 27-10 snared an 11.6/20, the worst SNF has performed this season so far. It’s an 8% dip from the early numbers of last week’s game, Atlanta’s 34-23 win over Green Bay. Amid cheers and boos from fans at FedEx Field in Maryland last night, the third week of the SNF season declined 10% from early numbers of the comparable game of last year on September 25, 2016.
http://nypost.com/2017/09/24/about-100-protest-national-anthem-in-loud-nfl-statement/
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/09/25/cowboys-sources-plan-for-unity-during-tonights-anthem/
http://nypost.com/2017/09/25/pushed-to-my-limit-stadium-worker-quits-after-bills-protest-anthem/
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2017/...o-villanueva-while-his-jersey-sales-soar.html
He should go to Tomlins face and tell him to go f himself, head coach or not.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...ing-players-who-kneel-national-anthem-1042616
http://deadline.com/2017/09/redskin...r-trek-discovery-donald-trump-nbc-1202176141/
On a day full of criticism from Donald Trump, political protests, linked arms, players taking a knee or not coming on the field at all during the national anthem, and renewed pleas for unity from the league, NBC and the NFL took a ratings hit on Sunday Night Football.
In metered market numbers, the primetime matchup that saw the Washington Redskins beat the Oakland Raiders 27-10 snared an 11.6/20, the worst SNF has performed this season so far. It’s an 8% dip from the early numbers of last week’s game, Atlanta’s 34-23 win over Green Bay. Amid cheers and boos from fans at FedEx Field in Maryland last night, the third week of the SNF season declined 10% from early numbers of the comparable game of last year on September 25, 2016.
http://nypost.com/2017/09/24/about-100-protest-national-anthem-in-loud-nfl-statement/
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/09/25/cowboys-sources-plan-for-unity-during-tonights-anthem/
http://nypost.com/2017/09/25/pushed-to-my-limit-stadium-worker-quits-after-bills-protest-anthem/
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2017/...o-villanueva-while-his-jersey-sales-soar.html
He should go to Tomlins face and tell him to go f himself, head coach or not.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...ing-players-who-kneel-national-anthem-1042616
There's a market alright. Ha, "celebrity"? You a Kardashian fan too?
If you do not like political expression during events that you believe should be politically neutral - i.e. entertainment - then stop going, watching, paying.
If enough people are turned off by the knee and football loses ratings, attendance, money, change will happen.
The Dixie Chicks went off on W and have never been the same. Sinead O'Connor on John Paul II. Their fans turned on them when they took an unpopular stand. The marketplace in action.
And you're right, "silencing" was a poor choice of word.
You can't pay or not pay. You pay, because billions and billions of tax dollars a year are spent subsidizing entertainment and sports and the arts. You can debate the wisdom and effect of those subsidies, but don't pretend that entertainment industry competes in the free market, because it doesn't.
HowCouldUBeSoHarkless
Member
Textbook Alinsky. And ageist.To many of the old dudes in this thread, especially the guy who started this
![URL]](http://[URL]https://ci.memecdn.com/6177005.jpg[/URL])
Better stop me the big bad ageist.
I submit the following article from the NYT a year ago. I believe it adds some needed 'context' to this issue in a non-inflammatory way. IMI, it is a reasonable nd informative:
Is the National Anthem Racist? Beyond the Debate Over Colin Kaepernick
By JENNIFER SCHUESSLERSEPT. 2, 2016
The continuing refusal by the San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick to stand during the playing of “The Star-Spangled Banner” before games has set off a debate about patriotism, protest and professional sports. But it has also raised another fraught question: Is our national anthem itself racist?
The journalist Jon Schwarz, writing in The Intercept, argued yes, denouncing the lyrics, written by Francis Scott Key during the War of 1812, as “a celebration of slavery.” How could black players, Mr. Schwarz asked, be expected to stand for a song whose rarely sung third stanza — which includes the lines “No refuge could save the hireling and slave/From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave” — “literally celebrates the murder of African-Americans”?
That argument drew outrage from some conservative news outlets, as well as a more scholarly rebuttal from Mark Clague, a musicologist at the University of Michigan and the founding board chairman of the Star Spangled Music Foundation. We spoke with Mr. Clague, who is writing a book about the song, about the anthem’s history and shifting meanings. The interview has been edited for clarity and length.
Why do you think those who call the song racist are wrong?
The social context of the song comes from the age of slavery, but the song itself isn’t about slavery, and it doesn’t treat whites differently from blacks. The reference to slaves is about the use, and in some sense the manipulation, of black Americans to fight for the British, with the promise of freedom. The American forces included African-Americans as well as whites. The term “freemen,” whose heroism is celebrated in the fourth stanza, would have encompassed both.
Few people know “The Star-Spangled Banner” has a third verse, since it was often left out of 20th-century sheet music publications. Why?
I don’t think people were afraid of offending African-Americans, but of offending the British. It was their blood that “has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution,” as the third verse puts it. But when we became allies in World War I, we really started reversing course.
Part of the difficulty of parsing the anthem seems to that Americans know so little about the War of 1812. Why is public understanding so murky?
It’s something in our history we would probably rather skip over. Nobody won, nobody lost. The British burned down the White House. We invaded Canada. It was sort of a bizarre war. But while it didn’t really change much, it was pivotal as far as American identity went.
The naval buildup really created the modern American national state. That’s part of the reason why “The Star-Spangled Banner” seems so natural and true and permanent and sacred to us today. It didn’t really describe America in 1814, when Key wrote his lyrics, but it was a vision of the unified power the country would become.
For your project “Poets & Patriots,” you tracked down around 100 different sets of lyrics written by others. How do these alternate versions help us understand the meaning of the song?
There are versions that talk about temperance, about women’s suffrage, about presidential campaigns, including Abraham Lincoln’s. The one I wish everyone knew about was one about abolition from 1844, beginning “Oh say, do you hear … ” It repeats Key’s phrase “the land of the free” but as an ironic statement. I wish teachers would contrast that version with Key’s, as a way of showing how singing the anthem isn’t a mindless, rote ritual, but part of a long history of exploration of what the country is about.
Does that same kind of revision go on today?
By the 20th century, we were treating the anthem as a religious hymn, and it became counterproductive to alter the lyrics as social commentary since changes to the anthem tend to make people so upset. In the 20th century, commentary became less about the lyrics than about the performance. Take Jimi Hendrix’s version. It was a combination of patriotism and protest. Here you have an African-American man, speaking largely to white youth but really to all youth, about their own potential to create the country at a moment when they were old enough to be drafted, but not necessarily old enough to vote.
What do you see as the most important part of the anthem?
For me, it’s the punctuation that ends the part we sing. After “land of the free,” we have a question mark, not an exclamation point. Is the flag and what it represents still there? Are we winning the battle for freedom that this country was founded on? That’s where Colin Kaepernick has started a productive conversation. If there are people who don’t feel the song represents them, we need to pay attention to that. But if we just reject the song as racist, or declare that it isn’t our anthem anymore, we don’t fix the problem.
Is the National Anthem Racist? Beyond the Debate Over Colin Kaepernick
By JENNIFER SCHUESSLERSEPT. 2, 2016
The continuing refusal by the San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick to stand during the playing of “The Star-Spangled Banner” before games has set off a debate about patriotism, protest and professional sports. But it has also raised another fraught question: Is our national anthem itself racist?
The journalist Jon Schwarz, writing in The Intercept, argued yes, denouncing the lyrics, written by Francis Scott Key during the War of 1812, as “a celebration of slavery.” How could black players, Mr. Schwarz asked, be expected to stand for a song whose rarely sung third stanza — which includes the lines “No refuge could save the hireling and slave/From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave” — “literally celebrates the murder of African-Americans”?
That argument drew outrage from some conservative news outlets, as well as a more scholarly rebuttal from Mark Clague, a musicologist at the University of Michigan and the founding board chairman of the Star Spangled Music Foundation. We spoke with Mr. Clague, who is writing a book about the song, about the anthem’s history and shifting meanings. The interview has been edited for clarity and length.
Why do you think those who call the song racist are wrong?
The social context of the song comes from the age of slavery, but the song itself isn’t about slavery, and it doesn’t treat whites differently from blacks. The reference to slaves is about the use, and in some sense the manipulation, of black Americans to fight for the British, with the promise of freedom. The American forces included African-Americans as well as whites. The term “freemen,” whose heroism is celebrated in the fourth stanza, would have encompassed both.
Few people know “The Star-Spangled Banner” has a third verse, since it was often left out of 20th-century sheet music publications. Why?
I don’t think people were afraid of offending African-Americans, but of offending the British. It was their blood that “has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution,” as the third verse puts it. But when we became allies in World War I, we really started reversing course.
Part of the difficulty of parsing the anthem seems to that Americans know so little about the War of 1812. Why is public understanding so murky?
It’s something in our history we would probably rather skip over. Nobody won, nobody lost. The British burned down the White House. We invaded Canada. It was sort of a bizarre war. But while it didn’t really change much, it was pivotal as far as American identity went.
The naval buildup really created the modern American national state. That’s part of the reason why “The Star-Spangled Banner” seems so natural and true and permanent and sacred to us today. It didn’t really describe America in 1814, when Key wrote his lyrics, but it was a vision of the unified power the country would become.
For your project “Poets & Patriots,” you tracked down around 100 different sets of lyrics written by others. How do these alternate versions help us understand the meaning of the song?
There are versions that talk about temperance, about women’s suffrage, about presidential campaigns, including Abraham Lincoln’s. The one I wish everyone knew about was one about abolition from 1844, beginning “Oh say, do you hear … ” It repeats Key’s phrase “the land of the free” but as an ironic statement. I wish teachers would contrast that version with Key’s, as a way of showing how singing the anthem isn’t a mindless, rote ritual, but part of a long history of exploration of what the country is about.
Does that same kind of revision go on today?
By the 20th century, we were treating the anthem as a religious hymn, and it became counterproductive to alter the lyrics as social commentary since changes to the anthem tend to make people so upset. In the 20th century, commentary became less about the lyrics than about the performance. Take Jimi Hendrix’s version. It was a combination of patriotism and protest. Here you have an African-American man, speaking largely to white youth but really to all youth, about their own potential to create the country at a moment when they were old enough to be drafted, but not necessarily old enough to vote.
What do you see as the most important part of the anthem?
For me, it’s the punctuation that ends the part we sing. After “land of the free,” we have a question mark, not an exclamation point. Is the flag and what it represents still there? Are we winning the battle for freedom that this country was founded on? That’s where Colin Kaepernick has started a productive conversation. If there are people who don’t feel the song represents them, we need to pay attention to that. But if we just reject the song as racist, or declare that it isn’t our anthem anymore, we don’t fix the problem.
Wtf :manga:
It's our national anthem and a big reason why these guys make millions. You're probably under 30, I get it. Watch a Bronx Tale.
He was in Viet Nam 67-68 (same years as my father) so he's pretty dang old.
I think it is a pretty reasonable article.
My bad, post was very long.
Amazing, 8 pages on the knee. You can't make this shit up.
Personally, I would have liked to have heard Trump talk about how people came together during and after the hurricanes in Florida and Texas during his speech in Alabama. I watched on television as Americans of all races helped each other in those states. People showed care and concern for each other. Then I think it would have been appropriate for our President to say now we need to come together again to assist the American citizens in Puerto Rico whose island has been devastated by Hurricane Maria. American citizens are dying in Puerto Rico and all Trump can do is call NFL players "sons of bitches". But then again, Trump and his base have no "skin" in the game when it comes to Puerto Rico.
Trump continues to divide the country instead of uniting it. We may be on the verge of another Korean conflict, American citizens in Puerto Rico, St Thomas and other US territories have seen their lives turned upside down through no fault of their own, only to be totally ignored by our President. There is no electricity in Puerto Rico and he is tweeting about football. A dam is on the verge of breaking and he is tweeting about football. Talk about misguided priorities,
But why should I have expected anything else since Trump and his base have no "skin" in the game when it comes to Puerto Rico, literally.
Personally, I would have liked to have heard Trump talk about how people came together during and after the hurricanes in Florida and Texas during his speech in Alabama. I watched on television as Americans of all races helped each other in those states. People showed care and concern for each other. Then I think it would have been appropriate for our President to say now we need to come together again to assist the American citizens in Puerto Rico whose island has been devastated by Hurricane Maria. American citizens are dying in Puerto Rico and all Trump can do is call NFL players "sons of bitches". But then again, Trump and his base have no "skin" in the game when it comes to Puerto Rico.
Trump continues to divide the country instead of uniting it. We may be on the verge of another Korean conflict, American citizens in Puerto Rico, St Thomas and other US territories have seen their lives turned upside down through no fault of their own, only to be totally ignored by our President. There is no electricity in Puerto Rico and he is tweeting about football. A dam is on the verge of breaking and he is tweeting about football. Talk about misguided priorities,
But why should I have expected anything else since Trump and his base have no "skin" in the game when it comes to Puerto Rico, literally.
i believe the anthem represents something...not for exact words, but what it stands for. What it means and is meant for the vast majority of people in this country. It , like the flag represent the freedoms that we take for granted. I get it, some manorities feel they don't enjoy the same freedoms. These are debates that can go back and forth about what each group in this country has or doesn't have more than other groups. Bottom line is if your not happy with the laws- become an attorney, politician, etc. If your unhappy with law enforcement tactic, become a policeman. Healthcare and its people, become a doctor. The point is although its not a perfect system we ( ALL of us ) can become and do whatever we'd like within the law. That is whats great about our freedoms we do have. Freedoms that countless men and women of all colors died for. As far as the injustice with police goes, there are tragic deaths that involve police, white, black, asian, and hispanic have all been victims. BUT, it is my opinion, that many of these deaths could of been averted by just complying with the law. If the police stop and/or arrest you wrongly, you will have your day in court and possibly a nice payday, but you will be alive! Its easy to sit here and dissect split second life decisions that are made for police. Think of this one fact......how many police are there in this country? How many interactions do those police ( car stops, 911 calls, just being on patrol etc) have on a daily basis? 1000s, now multiply that by 365 days in a year. Hundreds of thousands of interactions with the public ( of all colors ) every year. There will be tragic events, just like in any profession that can cost a person a life. BUT by complying many of those lives will be saved. Look at the big picture, thats all I'm saying. Sorry for the rant and i really wish everyone could just get along like teammates on a team. Thats whats great about sport. It doesn't matter what color, religion, sexual orientation you are, its about coming together as a team. Unfortunately our country displays this when we deal with tragic events but why only then?
So to recap: everyone's a racist, except you.
UPDATE: Breaking news from last week:
Yesterday, [September 20] President Donald J. Trump declared that a major disaster exists in the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico and ordered Federal assistance to supplement Commonwealth and local recovery efforts in the areas affected by Hurricane Maria beginning on September 17, 2017, and continuing.
In other news:
![URL]](http://[URL]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsUxP-qUsAA5S-w.jpg[/URL])
I was really hoping this was going to go away but Trump the man who wont shut up (still better than hillary) had to open his mouth again. to get this out of the way I am white and old, pick on me as you will. I grew up in queens village and defiantly experienced the good and bad or race relations from wonderful friends to being chased and robbed on the subway. Like most people on the board I grew up with stereotypes thrown out and learned to develop opinions on people on their nature not their color or skin.
Preambles done, the Kap and knee story has evolved and transmuted since it first hit. It started in support of Black lives matter and against the violence done to young African American men by the police with some social injustice thrown in. Now it has evolved to a total social injustice against African Americans, woman, illegal immigrants, Muslims and i would not be surprised to see transsexuals thrown in. (much of the flame to this fire I am sure can be pointed at ESPN)
When it happened I was troubled as I thought he could have a better venue to voice his activism but did think he had every right to do it. What did rub me the wrong way was more me and not kap or the knee. Like many here I work for a large company. Over the last 10 years I have been deluged with sensitivity training and policies that have curtailed my freedom of speech. I cannot say that I believe Muslims coming to this country should have a more secure vetting process, that the liberal immigration polices from India and Asia are taking American jobs and hurting African American youth who could be trained for these positions for good high paying jobs, or even Mary you look very nice today. I could get fired for any one of these given that someone may feel bad or threatened. And here comes the firestorm from the NFL and there are little or no repercussions and it made me feel worse about the indecent.
So Step two now is If i Don't support Kap I am branded as a racist or a white supremacist. Let me assure you I am neither. While I agree to some part of Kaps platform I do find him a bit influenced and naive (as I do about my daughter who just got her doctorate from the new school) I cannot support Black Lives Matter after reading their manifesto (if anyone want a discussion on this PM me), while I do agree that a full restructure of our educational system needs to happen to tailor it to the needs of the students not the administration and educators. We need to teach children at the level their skills are not at their age grade. (could be level 2 English and level 12 science) Education should not be just passing through but about real learning. As far as better training for our police who would disagree. Anyone who has grown up in NYC knows there are both bad and good cops on the force but the majority are good men and women trying to protect all of us.
What kap never brings up (and I am sure disagrees about based on his pig socks) is the attitude displayed by many to the police fire fighters. Young people seem to think it is ok to be rude and argumentative to the cops and sometimes slapping and striking them. These are people who go into bad situations often in the middle of domestic violence, often into dangerous situations where they are being shot at. Do they need to be told F u by the guy they just witnessed selling something on the street. high tension job, on edge, and smart ass antagonizing is not a great combination. Can cops do better, yes, can people do better yes. So instead of condemning all cops how about weeding the bad ones out and some extra training every year for the good ones.
As far as economic inequities we are in the land of opportunity but it is hard work. May Parents came to the US as Janitors in Kew Gardens and both worked their way up. My GF came from china 15 years ago, started as a waitress, saved her money and invested and now owns several laundrys. The dream is not to be handed something, it is to have the ability to reach ot for your dream and grab it. Sometime you succeed, sometimes you fail but you can keep reaching.
Sorry for the ramble there but as for the knee I would prefer a round table with the players who are concerned and politicians and community leaders. Help come up with workable solutions and support the implementations financially.
Preambles done, the Kap and knee story has evolved and transmuted since it first hit. It started in support of Black lives matter and against the violence done to young African American men by the police with some social injustice thrown in. Now it has evolved to a total social injustice against African Americans, woman, illegal immigrants, Muslims and i would not be surprised to see transsexuals thrown in. (much of the flame to this fire I am sure can be pointed at ESPN)
When it happened I was troubled as I thought he could have a better venue to voice his activism but did think he had every right to do it. What did rub me the wrong way was more me and not kap or the knee. Like many here I work for a large company. Over the last 10 years I have been deluged with sensitivity training and policies that have curtailed my freedom of speech. I cannot say that I believe Muslims coming to this country should have a more secure vetting process, that the liberal immigration polices from India and Asia are taking American jobs and hurting African American youth who could be trained for these positions for good high paying jobs, or even Mary you look very nice today. I could get fired for any one of these given that someone may feel bad or threatened. And here comes the firestorm from the NFL and there are little or no repercussions and it made me feel worse about the indecent.
So Step two now is If i Don't support Kap I am branded as a racist or a white supremacist. Let me assure you I am neither. While I agree to some part of Kaps platform I do find him a bit influenced and naive (as I do about my daughter who just got her doctorate from the new school) I cannot support Black Lives Matter after reading their manifesto (if anyone want a discussion on this PM me), while I do agree that a full restructure of our educational system needs to happen to tailor it to the needs of the students not the administration and educators. We need to teach children at the level their skills are not at their age grade. (could be level 2 English and level 12 science) Education should not be just passing through but about real learning. As far as better training for our police who would disagree. Anyone who has grown up in NYC knows there are both bad and good cops on the force but the majority are good men and women trying to protect all of us.
What kap never brings up (and I am sure disagrees about based on his pig socks) is the attitude displayed by many to the police fire fighters. Young people seem to think it is ok to be rude and argumentative to the cops and sometimes slapping and striking them. These are people who go into bad situations often in the middle of domestic violence, often into dangerous situations where they are being shot at. Do they need to be told F u by the guy they just witnessed selling something on the street. high tension job, on edge, and smart ass antagonizing is not a great combination. Can cops do better, yes, can people do better yes. So instead of condemning all cops how about weeding the bad ones out and some extra training every year for the good ones.
As far as economic inequities we are in the land of opportunity but it is hard work. May Parents came to the US as Janitors in Kew Gardens and both worked their way up. My GF came from china 15 years ago, started as a waitress, saved her money and invested and now owns several laundrys. The dream is not to be handed something, it is to have the ability to reach ot for your dream and grab it. Sometime you succeed, sometimes you fail but you can keep reaching.
Sorry for the ramble there but as for the knee I would prefer a round table with the players who are concerned and politicians and community leaders. Help come up with workable solutions and support the implementations financially.
Trump is on tape not showing respect for the flag/anthem during the Republican debates. All the others have their hands over their hearts. Trump doesn't. And at the WH with Melanie and his young son, Baron. They do. He doesn't.
Plus, the guy is on record defending Putin with comments like "we have killers too." And with the G7 this past July he defended Putin again and said "we're not so great."
The guy is divisive and a hypocrite and he is "defining deviancy down"--making our culture less resilient and less civil daily.
He is such a megalomaniac.
The man makes me shiver in disgust.
I AM WRONG ABOUT TRUMP NOT RESPECTING FLAG/ANTHEM IN REPUBLICAN DEBATE. IT'S A FALSE PC. I AM EMBARRASSED AND APOLOGIZE.
Plus, the guy is on record defending Putin with comments like "we have killers too." And with the G7 this past July he defended Putin again and said "we're not so great."
The guy is divisive and a hypocrite and he is "defining deviancy down"--making our culture less resilient and less civil daily.
He is such a megalomaniac.
The man makes me shiver in disgust.
I AM WRONG ABOUT TRUMP NOT RESPECTING FLAG/ANTHEM IN REPUBLICAN DEBATE. IT'S A FALSE PC. I AM EMBARRASSED AND APOLOGIZE.
Just curious, how's Obama's hometown of Chicago doing? Pretty sure it suffered worse when he was in office.