St. John's/Gtown game thread

Unfortunately this type of game kills program in 2013. Lots of reverberations from this type of game.

Wonder if lavin will stick it out here, maybe too steep of a hill to climb.
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Tough to sell the turnaround after a day a like today, but its one game. A terrible game, but just one game.

On the upside, I don't see anything that makes me think we're going to lose Harrison, Sampson or anyone else to the NBA next season. We'll be a little older and smarter. We'll have Gift or another big man. Might have to evaluate if the staff needs another teacher/strategist.

Don't like what I see today, but should get better.
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If Lavin is leaving us on his own he's going straight back to the analyst desk
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That would surprise me. Coach seems like a competitor and I can't see him giving up that fast.

I hate to drift into coach-speak and excuses, but we are young. We have some talent. Plenty of work to do, but I wouldn't expect Lavin to walk away from what he's started here.
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This team was picked dead last in pre-season, and that's when the voters thought Sanchez would be eligible.
This one is on the team, nor the coach.
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On the team, not the coach?

He recruited them. It's his job to put them in the best position to score and defend. If they can't shoot, run play sets where they can score easy buckets. He knew they weren't shooters when he recruited them. Ok, adjust to what you recruited.
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Curious, but what woudl you have done differently? This team doesn't shoot well, doesn't have tremendous size, and isn't loaded with heady basketball players. Garrett looked horrible today, Obepka blocks shots but little else, Sampson is still a raw talent, Pointer hot and cold on offense. Harrison is a streaky shooter who is very good at his best and of little value when he is off. Branch got major minutes today, but didn't exactly look like the general he is purported to be. One or two games doesn't make a season, and they aren't as bad as the last two games, or as good as the team that beat Cinncinati. However, overall, this group on potential alone may be a bit overrated.
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I'm not a coach and neither are the players.

If you have athletes (poor shooters), run an offense that caters to shots in the paint. Have your SFs and PFs cutting to the basket, not playing Hot Potato above the 3 point line.

When we had guys like Lavor Postell, we would throw at least 2 back door alleyoops a game to him. I think Balamou can out jump Postell. Yet, I haven't seen one halfcourt alleyoop this year.

Lavin was hellbent before the season started saying that he wanted to change Jakarr from a PF to a SF. Jakarr has a nice jumper but he's inconsistent at it. Look at the Baylor game again. He played more in the post and had a nice game. Put him down low. Make him use his leaping ability by hitting the glass and getting easy putbacks.

One or two games certainly don't make a season but the objective is to qualify for the NCAA tournament. You stink it up on your home court and sit at the bottom of the conference, you won't even qualify for the NIT.

The Cincy win was deceiving because it was an incredibly ugly game. If D'Angelo doesn't hit a prayer for 3, we lose. I didn't put too much stock into that win.
 
Unfortunately this type of game kills program in 2013. Lots of reverberations from this type of game.

Wonder if lavin will stick it out here, maybe too steep of a hill to climb.
Click to expand...

Tough to sell the turnaround after a day a like today, but its one game. A terrible game, but just one game.

On the upside, I don't see anything that makes me think we're going to lose Harrison, Sampson or anyone else to the NBA next season. We'll be a little older and smarter. We'll have Gift or another big man. Might have to evaluate if the staff needs another teacher/strategist.

Don't like what I see today, but should get better.
Click to expand...

If Lavin is leaving us on his own he's going straight back to the analyst desk
Click to expand...

That would surprise me. Coach seems like a competitor and I can't see him giving up that fast.

I hate to drift into coach-speak and excuses, but we are young. We have some talent. Plenty of work to do, but I wouldn't expect Lavin to walk away from what he's started here.
Click to expand...


This team was picked dead last in pre-season, and that's when the voters thought Sanchez would be eligible.
This one is on the team, nor the coach.
Click to expand...

On the team, not the coach?

He recruited them. It's his job to put them in the best position to score and defend. If they can't shoot, run play sets where they can score easy buckets. He knew they weren't shooters when he recruited them. Ok, adjust to what you recruited.
Click to expand...

Curious, but what woudl you have done differently? This team doesn't shoot well, doesn't have tremendous size, and isn't loaded with heady basketball players. Garrett looked horrible today, Obepka blocks shots but little else, Sampson is still a raw talent, Pointer hot and cold on offense. Harrison is a streaky shooter who is very good at his best and of little value when he is off. Branch got major minutes today, but didn't exactly look like the general he is purported to be. One or two games doesn't make a season, and they aren't as bad as the last two games, or as good as the team that beat Cinncinati. However, overall, this group on potential alone may be a bit overrated.
Click to expand...

I'm not a coach and neither are the players.

If you have athletes (poor shooters), run an offense that caters to shots in the paint. Have your SFs and PFs cutting to the basket, not playing Hot Potato above the 3 point line.

When we had guys like Lavor Postell, we would throw at least 2 back door alleyoops a game to him. I think Balamou can out jump Postell. Yet, I haven't seen one halfcourt alleyoop this year.

Lavin was hellbent before the season started saying that he wanted to change Jakarr from a PF to a SF. Jakarr has a nice jumper but he's inconsistent at it. Look at the Baylor game again. He played more in the post and had a nice game. Put him down low. Make him use his leaping ability by hitting the glass and getting easy putbacks.

One or two games certainly don't make a season but the objective is to qualify for the NCAA tournament. You stink it up on your home court and sit at the bottom of the conference, you won't even qualify for the NIT.

The Cincy win was deceiving because it was an incredibly ugly game. If D'Angelo doesn't hit a prayer for 3, we lose. I didn't put too much stock into that win.
Click to expand...

I think an NCAA bid would have been very optimistic as a reach for this squad at start of season. They would need 11 or 12 conference wins to get an at large bid, which was highly unlikely and now even less so. If they finish above .500 the NIT should come calling. If this team shows cohesiveness, the NIT would be a nice stepping stone to an NCAA bid next year, but as of now, Lavin has not corralled a single top recruit.
 
There are so many problems to speak of, but I'll reiterate what some posters have already said. There is too much dribbling out there and not enough motion. I remember listening to Bob Knight announcing one of our games a few years back and he stressed that when he was coaching he had a firm rule that you either made a move to the basket or gave it up after 4 dribbles. I'm watching our players hold there hold the ball for 10 seconds with no motion going on around them. Are you kidding me? If you don't have a lane, pass it off and move. Set picks, set screens ... also known as Basketball 101.

Listen, there is no doubt that this is a tremendously flawed roster. It's been mentioned countless times that we are a team of wing players who (a) can't create by themselves (b) can't shoot. Outside of Harrison and possibly Branch and Bourgault, nobody on our team can really shoot a 15 to 18 footer. So the only way to compensate for that is to tighten up on defense, hustle for fast break points, and always move your feet on offense. As today displayed, there should be nobody stationary on the floor because you can't shoot. You have to constantly be going to the basket and fight for second chance points to compete in games. The fact that Lavin and his coaching staff have not been stressing this more is scary to me.

It's just very, very discouraging to me to talk about the same problems game after game. And for all those posters trying to whip out the "we're a young team' speech, so is Georgetown. Not 1 senior on that team. And they came into our home building and thoroughly embarrassed our school. This game was done at the 9 minute mark of the 1st half. I don't even know what to say to that. All I know is I'm very glad I didn't buy season tickets this season. To pay good money and waste a Saturday afternoon watching this garbage is just not my idea of a good time.
 
Unfortunately this type of game kills program in 2013. Lots of reverberations from this type of game.

Wonder if lavin will stick it out here, maybe too steep of a hill to climb.
Click to expand...

Tough to sell the turnaround after a day a like today, but its one game. A terrible game, but just one game.

On the upside, I don't see anything that makes me think we're going to lose Harrison, Sampson or anyone else to the NBA next season. We'll be a little older and smarter. We'll have Gift or another big man. Might have to evaluate if the staff needs another teacher/strategist.

Don't like what I see today, but should get better.
Click to expand...

If Lavin is leaving us on his own he's going straight back to the analyst desk
Click to expand...

That would surprise me. Coach seems like a competitor and I can't see him giving up that fast.

I hate to drift into coach-speak and excuses, but we are young. We have some talent. Plenty of work to do, but I wouldn't expect Lavin to walk away from what he's started here.
Click to expand...


This team was picked dead last in pre-season, and that's when the voters thought Sanchez would be eligible.
This one is on the team, nor the coach.
Click to expand...

On the team, not the coach?

He recruited them. It's his job to put them in the best position to score and defend. If they can't shoot, run play sets where they can score easy buckets. He knew they weren't shooters when he recruited them. Ok, adjust to what you recruited.
Click to expand...

Curious, but what woudl you have done differently? This team doesn't shoot well, doesn't have tremendous size, and isn't loaded with heady basketball players. Garrett looked horrible today, Obepka blocks shots but little else, Sampson is still a raw talent, Pointer hot and cold on offense. Harrison is a streaky shooter who is very good at his best and of little value when he is off. Branch got major minutes today, but didn't exactly look like the general he is purported to be. One or two games doesn't make a season, and they aren't as bad as the last two games, or as good as the team that beat Cinncinati. However, overall, this group on potential alone may be a bit overrated.
Click to expand...

I'm not a coach and neither are the players.

If you have athletes (poor shooters), run an offense that caters to shots in the paint. Have your SFs and PFs cutting to the basket, not playing Hot Potato above the 3 point line.

When we had guys like Lavor Postell, we would throw at least 2 back door alleyoops a game to him. I think Balamou can out jump Postell. Yet, I haven't seen one halfcourt alleyoop this year.

Lavin was hellbent before the season started saying that he wanted to change Jakarr from a PF to a SF. Jakarr has a nice jumper but he's inconsistent at it. Look at the Baylor game again. He played more in the post and had a nice game. Put him down low. Make him use his leaping ability by hitting the glass and getting easy putbacks.

One or two games certainly don't make a season but the objective is to qualify for the NCAA tournament. You stink it up on your home court and sit at the bottom of the conference, you won't even qualify for the NIT.

The Cincy win was deceiving because it was an incredibly ugly game. If D'Angelo doesn't hit a prayer for 3, we lose. I didn't put too much stock into that win.
Click to expand...

I think an NCAA bid would have been very optimistic as a reach for this squad at start of season. They would need 11 or 12 conference wins to get an at large bid, which was highly unlikely and now even less so. If they finish above .500 the NIT should come calling. If this team shows cohesiveness, the NIT would be a nice stepping stone to an NCAA bid next year, but as of now, Lavin has not corralled a single top recruit.
Click to expand...

I'm actually cooling off a bit on the whole top recruit philosophy.

We need role players. Guys that are fundamentally sound.

It seems to me that the players that weren't as highly recruited work much harder than the ones who were.

This team seems to think they can just AAU their way to the big dance. Doesn't work that way.
 
Think of all the epic St John's - Georgetown battles of the past
This game was an embarrasment
We played more like St Leo's than St John's today

A few thoughts:

1. We need an offensive coordinator. Watch Georgetown run their offense and watch us run our 1 on 1 stuff that often ends up with a turnover or a "chuck" at the hoop just before the shot clock runs out.
2. We need a defensive coordinator. Watch Georgetown's intensity on defense and watch our's get carved up over and over again. We are so fundamentally flawed on defense. It almost looks like our defensive strategy is to intentionally allow ourselves to get beat on the dribble and play for the steal or blocked shot.
3. Branch needs to play starter's minutes instead of Greene
4. Balamou is athletic but has zero basketball IQ
5. Bourgault should not play at all against defensively aggressive teams. Can't get his shot off.
6. Pointer should start and play starter's minutes against aggressive teams like Georgetown.
7. I like Garrett but, today, he was a hot mess out there and should have been benched.
8. We miss Dunlap a lot!!!

I'll stop the rant here. As disappointed I am with our play today, I'll be cheering as hard as ever during our next game. GO JOHNNIES!!
 
well Im glad to hear Pointer was embarassed because quite frankly so was I.
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Why wouldnt a player be embarrassed. They are kids.

I'd be more 'happy' to see Lavin use those words.
 
After seeing this Lawrence and Jordon will be a hard sell
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Wish coach does something other than stand with his arms folded Shooting 29%

OK we now know branch is no the answer to this team
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Regarding Branch, he may not be "the answer" but he showed that he belongs in the starting lineup. Granted, a lot of his scoring came late in the game, but he did shoot 7-11 (2-4 from three-point range) and, unlike Phil Greene, doesn't dribble frenetically (and unproductively) from side to side near half-court until the clock runs out. I'll be very disappointed -- p.o.-ed, actually -- if he doesn't start the next game. Greene is simply out of position and over his head at the point and his shooting has become more and more inconsistent with each game.
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It was good to see Branch get most of the minutes...he made some good plays and gets to the basket very well...had some turnovers but I will take him anyday...He did what he could do today and that was draw the defense and then pass to an open player (Phil, Amir in prticular)...Unfortunately our guys cannot hit open 10 footers or are afraid to take them
 
If the MSG scoreboard is correct Branch and Harrison combined for 1 assist, garnered in the last 10 minutes of the game.

The ball simply doesn't move enough. Too much dribbling.
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Misleading as far as Branch is concerned...He did his part...drew the defense and passed to an open man for a 10 footer...we passed up so many shots and missed the others,,,D1 level players have to be able to hit open 10 footers and certainly shouldn't be afraid to take them.

Harrison was very frustrated today and forced bad shots...appeared as though Lavin wasnt happy with him and a few others
 
Wow, it a tough game to be at. This was one of the worst SJU games I ever attended( over 30 years since High School and a long time season ticket holder). Mainly because it is beginning to look like I overestimated the talent. Even though we picked to finish low in the Big East, I thought we had better talent. The team looked lifeless out there today. This game was similar to the 30 point blowout vs GT with the Mullin team. Big difference we had a helluva lot more talent and bounced back later. I am not sure this time. We have an athletic bunch of players of slashers who can't play inside. We do not run our offense towards the basket but more like five one on one players. When on offense, we looked at their zone defense like it was the first time we have ever seen it. On defense we played terrible. No communication. I love Lavin but he had a bad day as well. He let us get into a big hole before a time out. We did not look prepared either.
Do I think Harrison and Sampson will go pro? After the last couple of games for their sake and since we have zero recruits in 2013, our sake too, they better stay.
This was a tough, disappointing, frustrating loss.
Well I hope we show up on Tuesday or we will get slaughtered. I will be there hoping for a win.
Brian
 
Wow, it a tough game to be at. This was one of the worst SJU games I ever attended( over 30 years since High School and a long time season ticket holder). Mainly because it is beginning to look like I overestimated the talent. Even though we picked to finish low in the Big East, I thought we had better talent. The team looked lifeless out there today. This game was similar to the 30 point blowout vs GT with the Mullin team. Big difference we had a helluva lot more talent and bounced back later. I am not sure this time. We have an athletic bunch of players of slashers who can't play inside. We do not run our offense towards the basket but more like five one on one players. When on offense, we looked at their zone defense like it was the first time we have ever seen it. On defense we played terrible. No communication. I love Lavin but he had a bad day as well. He let us get into a big hole before a time out. We did not look prepared either.
Do I think Harrison and Sampson will go pro? After the last couple of games for their sake and since we have zero recruits in 2013, our sake too, they better stay.
This was a tough, disappointing, frustrating loss.
Well I hope we show up on Tuesday or we will get slaughtered. I will be there hoping for a win.
Brian
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This is a team that can not shoot. Unfortunately for st johns, you need to score points to win games
 
Do I think Harrison and Sampson will go pro? After the last couple of games for their sake and since we have zero recruits in 2013, our sake too, they better stay.
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Let's end this silly talk once and for all. At this point, neiher Harrison nor Sampson are NBA players. If they were, we wouldn't have the results we have so far, and both would be go to players, the type that is money in the bank with the ball in their hands. Guards had better be exceptional physically in size or speed. Harrison is not. If they aren't exceptionally fast, or tall, they had better have an exceptional skillset. Even then they will be competing against a zillion very good guys - they literally are a dime a dozen.

Sampson is not HArkness. He is our best recruit, and has shown flashes, but in no way is dominant in the paint the way Harkness was. I do like his upside, as I do Harrisons.
 
Do I think Harrison and Sampson will go pro? After the last couple of games for their sake and since we have zero recruits in 2013, our sake too, they better stay.
Click to expand...

Let's end this silly talk once and for all. At this point, neiher Harrison nor Sampson are NBA players. If they were, we wouldn't have the results we have so far, and both would be go to players, the type that is money in the bank with the ball in their hands. Guards had better be exceptional physically in size or speed. Harrison is not. If they aren't exceptionally fast, or tall, they had better have an exceptional skillset. Even then they will be competing against a zillion very good guys - they literally are a dime a dozen.

Sampson is not HArkness. He is our best recruit, and has shown flashes, but in no way is dominant in the paint the way Harkness was. I do like his upside, as I do Harrisons.
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Love Sampson's potential...But, Harkless would have been the best player on the court today, by a lot, as a freshmen
 
Do I think Harrison and Sampson will go pro? After the last couple of games for their sake and since we have zero recruits in 2013, our sake too, they better stay.
Click to expand...

Let's end this silly talk once and for all. At this point, neiher Harrison nor Sampson are NBA players. If they were, we wouldn't have the results we have so far, and both would be go to players, the type that is money in the bank with the ball in their hands. Guards had better be exceptional physically in size or speed. Harrison is not. If they aren't exceptionally fast, or tall, they had better have an exceptional skillset. Even then they will be competing against a zillion very good guys - they literally are a dime a dozen.

Sampson is not HArkness. He is our best recruit, and has shown flashes, but in no way is dominant in the paint the way Harkness was. I do like his upside, as I do Harrisons.
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I guess it's a pet peeve, but you tend to spell Moe's name incorrectly. It's Harkless.
 
However, overall, this group on potential alone may be a bit overrated.
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I'm starting to wonder, whether this roster was poorly constructed or not (I mentioned this a bit earlier).
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Your posts often make a lot of sense. You are one of the better posters on here.

I want to be very fair in this breakdown of Lavin's recruiting.

Year 1: Lavin had an entire roster to fill, and had to recruit for a program completely in the dumper. He was literally starting with virtually no program - a ten year record at the bottom of the Big East, and was going after guys that other coaches had a 2 or three year jump on. Hauling in Harkness and Harrison as the prizes, Lindsay (who tanked here), Garrett, Greene etc was a pretty nice start, along with Team Lavin turning NRs losing team into an NCAA tourney squad. All in all an A plus job or rebuilding

Year 2: Slowed by cancer, he comes up with Sampson, Branch, Obepka Balamou, Bourgault, Can't overstate how much the loss of harkness hurts. Sampson, Branch, Obepka are nice addditions, and with Harkness here, and Sampson as a third option (with offense from Greene and Branch) we could have beena tourney team.

Year 3: So far we haven't struck gold for next season, and that is a concern.

When you look at it this way it doesn't look horrible at all. Had Roberts left a squad with 3-4 underclassmen of Bif East ability (at the talent level of the starters that was on LAvin's 1st team) we'd be talking entirely differently today. So yea, as much as I'd hate to admit it, we are still in the hole that Norm left us in, and it will likely be felt until at least next year, and possibly won't be gone until the following year.
 
However, overall, this group on potential alone may be a bit overrated.
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I'm starting to wonder, whether this roster was poorly constructed or not (I mentioned this a bit earlier).
Click to expand...

Your posts often make a lot of sense. You are one of the better posters on here.

I want to be very fair in this breakdown of Lavin's recruiting.

Year 1: Lavin had an entire roster to fill, and had to recruit for a program completely in the dumper. He was literally starting with virtually no program - a ten year record at the bottom of the Big East, and was going after guys that other coaches had a 2 or three year jump on. Hauling in Harkness and Harrison as the prizes, Lindsay (who tanked here), Garrett, Greene etc was a pretty nice start, along with Team Lavin turning NRs losing team into an NCAA tourney squad. All in all an A plus job or rebuilding

Year 2: Slowed by cancer, he comes up with Sampson, Branch, Obepka Balamou, Bourgault, Can't overstate how much the loss of harkness hurts. Sampson, Branch, Obepka are nice addditions, and with Harkness here, and Sampson as a third option (with offense from Greene and Branch) we could have beena tourney team.

Year 3: So far we haven't struck gold for next season, and that is a concern.

When you look at it this way it doesn't look horrible at all. Had Roberts left a squad with 3-4 underclassmen of Bif East ability (at the talent level of the starters that was on LAvin's 1st team) we'd be talking entirely differently today. So yea, as much as I'd hate to admit it, we are still in the hole that Norm left us in, and it will likely be felt until at least next year, and possibly won't be gone until the following year.
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Thanks!

I really don't think about it much, but we are somewhat still in the hole that Roberts left the program in when he was axed. I'm guessing the only way we would've entirely gotten out of this hole was with a Kentucky-like classes.

Losing Harkless so soon definitely has had an effect this season. I think in the long-run it'll be good that we were able to get a kid into the NBA rather quickly, but short-term it didn't quite help us.
 
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