SHAMORI PONDS DRAFT PROJECTION & SIMON ???

[quote="Room112" post=347594]But in the 2nd half he did this to a fault. It was to the point he refused to even look for or take a shot. Just strange.[/quote]

Very strange. It often reminded me of when Kobe refused to shoot in that playoff game to get back at critics that he shot too much.
 
[quote="Paul Massell" post=347578][quote="Logen" post=347574]
Some truth in what you say but a lot of convenient excuses IMO. At the end I judge any player by an eye test, by what I see. I don’t judge players on numbers or what their teammates do or don’t do. I am not here to dump on Ponds so my last word, I look at him as a vastly underachieving player; not statistically but in maximizing his abilities to make his team better on both ends of the floor.[/quote]

I think Ponds is one of those guys that is so subtle and intentionally understated that he's spent his life being underestimated. He realizes this and thrives on it and doesn't try to be prototypical including outward shows of things that you want to see (as a coach) like enthusiasm in various forms. So he is going to fail eye tests where other guys who have different personalities will be overrated for the same/inverse reason. When I was first really impressed with Ponds was watching him off the floor in a high school all star game. While other kids were hooting and enthusiastic, he was really serious and studying the other players.. Both are great but most people don't and can't appreciate people like that.[/quote]

So I lied, one more post on the subject. Please don’t paint me with the brush you just described. I have been watching and evaluating players for a long time and am not impressed by rah rah one way or the other. I look at performance and the only body language I care about, within reason, is on the court or the bench. First and foremost, I want to see a person who leaves his effort on the court at both ends. I watched Ponds for three years and saw consistent half hearted effort on defense except if he was trying for a steal. I saw a player who spent long stretches invisible, not impacting the game at all. I saw a player with tremendous offensive talent too many times dribble aimlessly or hold the ball too long only to hoist up an ill advised off balance 3. I saw a player too often consumed with reacting to calls rather than the game. We just disagree.
 
[quote="Logen" post=347613][quote="Paul Massell" post=347578][quote="Logen" post=347574]
Some truth in what you say but a lot of convenient excuses IMO. At the end I judge any player by an eye test, by what I see. I don’t judge players on numbers or what their teammates do or don’t do. I am not here to dump on Ponds so my last word, I look at him as a vastly underachieving player; not statistically but in maximizing his abilities to make his team better on both ends of the floor.[/quote]

I think Ponds is one of those guys that is so subtle and intentionally understated that he's spent his life being underestimated. He realizes this and thrives on it and doesn't try to be prototypical including outward shows of things that you want to see (as a coach) like enthusiasm in various forms. So he is going to fail eye tests where other guys who have different personalities will be overrated for the same/inverse reason. When I was first really impressed with Ponds was watching him off the floor in a high school all star game. While other kids were hooting and enthusiastic, he was really serious and studying the other players.. Both are great but most people don't and can't appreciate people like that.[/quote]

So I lied, one more post on the subject. Please don’t paint me with the brush you just described. I have been watching and evaluating players for a long time and am not impressed by rah rah one way or the other. I look at performance and the only body language I care about, within reason, is on the court or the bench. First and foremost, I want to see a person who leaves his effort on the court at both ends. I watched Ponds for three years and saw consistent half hearted effort on defense except if he was trying for a steal. I saw a player who spent long stretches invisible, not impacting the game at all. I saw a player with tremendous offensive talent too many times dribble aimlessly or hold the ball too long only to hoist up an ill advised off balance 3. I saw a player too often consumed with reacting to calls rather than the game. We just disagree.[/quote]
I have no expertise in player assessment but what an accurate description of Ponds, Logen.
 
[quote="simplyred" post=347802][quote="Logen" post=347613][quote="Paul Massell" post=347578][quote="Logen" post=347574]
Some truth in what you say but a lot of convenient excuses IMO. At the end I judge any player by an eye test, by what I see. I don’t judge players on numbers or what their teammates do or don’t do. I am not here to dump on Ponds so my last word, I look at him as a vastly underachieving player; not statistically but in maximizing his abilities to make his team better on both ends of the floor.[/quote]

I think Ponds is one of those guys that is so subtle and intentionally understated that he's spent his life being underestimated. He realizes this and thrives on it and doesn't try to be prototypical including outward shows of things that you want to see (as a coach) like enthusiasm in various forms. So he is going to fail eye tests where other guys who have different personalities will be overrated for the same/inverse reason. When I was first really impressed with Ponds was watching him off the floor in a high school all star game. While other kids were hooting and enthusiastic, he was really serious and studying the other players.. Both are great but most people don't and can't appreciate people like that.[/quote]

So I lied, one more post on the subject. Please don’t paint me with the brush you just described. I have been watching and evaluating players for a long time and am not impressed by rah rah one way or the other. I look at performance and the only body language I care about, within reason, is on the court or the bench. First and foremost, I want to see a person who leaves his effort on the court at both ends. I watched Ponds for three years and saw consistent half hearted effort on defense except if he was trying for a steal. I saw a player who spent long stretches invisible, not impacting the game at all. I saw a player with tremendous offensive talent too many times dribble aimlessly or hold the ball too long only to hoist up an ill advised off balance 3. I saw a player too often consumed with reacting to calls rather than the game. We just disagree.[/quote]
I have no expertise in player assessment but what an accurate description of Ponds, Logen.[/quote]


I'll say this, its presumptuous to get into a kid's head and try to figure out what his motivation or effort is. To me, I would bet that our team's 30 games or so each season are the most important day of each year to our players, whether they bellow like D'Angelo and dive for loose balls, or have a different demeanor. To tell me Shamorie cared more or played harder when he was playing well and when we won is pure bullshit that could be assessed by reading a boxscore.
 
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It would be presumptuous to try to get into a kid’s head or try to figure out what his motivation is. However, effort, or more specifically, lack of effort is observable. It wasn’t all the time but there were periods in games, and games during the season, where the lack of effort was obvious. It was very disappointing because I went into the season expecting him to be the end of season POY and a late first round draft pick
 
[quote="simplyred" post=347818]It would be presumptuous to try to get into a kid’s head or try to figure out what his motivation is. However, effort, or more specifically, lack of effort is observable. It wasn’t all the time but there were periods in games, and games during the season, where the lack of effort was obvious. It was very disappointing because I went into the season expecting him to be the end of season POY and a late first round draft pick[/quote]

I just think that there was a stretch where Clark in particular was killing it from 3 and 6-8 games where he averaged over 16 ppg. I think Shamorie's best play was when his teammates could make wide open shots delivered to them by Ponds, which opened everything up for him. When they stopped I don't necessarily think his effort stopped, but I think it's clear that he became frustrated by defenses collapsing on him, daring anyone else to make shots. It's a tough gig for a smaller guard to excel in, and by season's end I think he was simply lost, as were his teammates. But I guess we are all entitled to trust our own eyes and make an assessment.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=348035][quote="simplyred" post=347818]It would be presumptuous to try to get into a kid’s head or try to figure out what his motivation is. However, effort, or more specifically, lack of effort is observable. It wasn’t all the time but there were periods in games, and games during the season, where the lack of effort was obvious. It was very disappointing because I went into the season expecting him to be the end of season POY and a late first round draft pick[/quote]

I just think that there was a stretch where Clark in particular was killing it from 3 and 6-8 games where he averaged over 16 ppg. I think Shamorie's best play was when his teammates could make wide open shots delivered to them by Ponds, which opened everything up for him. When they stopped I don't necessarily think his effort stopped, but I think it's clear that he became frustrated by defenses collapsing on him, daring anyone else to make shots. It's a tough gig for a smaller guard to excel in, and by season's end I think he was simply lost, as were his teammates. But I guess we are all entitled to trust our own eyes and make an assessment.[/quote]. Good post , Beast . I don’t get the idea of some that Ponds loafed through games . It’s a BS thought , that’s only as worthy as those who make it . Clark’s game was too streaky and at times , totally non contributory . Especially in the last few games where we needed a few points from him . And, didn’t get any., it cost us Wins . Ponds has nothing to do with Clark’s play, except to wish , like the rest of us that Marvin had scored . To say that Ponds didn’t play hard , is a Crock . As I have said before , I think Ponds often sacrificed his own Scoring to get his teammates involved and it cost us , when they didn’t contribute . Slick has a smoothness to his game and demeanor that might give the impression he isn’t going all out . Seeing him going to the Hoop and many times getting mauled and without a Foul Call has to be disheartening . To me , Ponds played hurt for some of the Season and it wasn’t made public . So , if Zaun wants to side swipe Shamorie again , more Power to him but , I don’t buy the BS .
 
[quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=348125][quote="Beast of the East" post=348035][quote="simplyred" post=347818]It would be presumptuous to try to get into a kid’s head or try to figure out what his motivation is. However, effort, or more specifically, lack of effort is observable. It wasn’t all the time but there were periods in games, and games during the season, where the lack of effort was obvious. It was very disappointing because I went into the season expecting him to be the end of season POY and a late first round draft pick[/quote]

I just think that there was a stretch where Clark in particular was killing it from 3 and 6-8 games where he averaged over 16 ppg. I think Shamorie's best play was when his teammates could make wide open shots delivered to them by Ponds, which opened everything up for him. When they stopped I don't necessarily think his effort stopped, but I think it's clear that he became frustrated by defenses collapsing on him, daring anyone else to make shots. It's a tough gig for a smaller guard to excel in, and by season's end I think he was simply lost, as were his teammates. But I guess we are all entitled to trust our own eyes and make an assessment.[/quote]. Good post , Beast . I don’t get the idea of some that Ponds loafed through games . It’s a BS thought , that’s only as worthy as those who make it . Clark’s game was too streaky and at times , totally non contributory . Especially in the last few games where we needed a few points from him . And, didn’t get any., it cost us Wins . Ponds has nothing to do with Clark’s play, except to wish , like the rest of us that Marvin had scored . To say that Ponds didn’t play hard , is a Crock . As I have said before , I think Ponds often sacrificed his own Scoring to get his teammates involved and it cost us , when they didn’t contribute . Slick has a smoothness to his game and demeanor that might give the impression he isn’t going all out . Seeing him going to the Hoop and many times getting mauled and without a Foul Call has to be disheartening . To me , Ponds played hurt for some of the Season and it wasn’t made public . So , if Zaun wants to side swipe Shamorie again , more Power to him but , I don’t buy the BS .[/quote]

Sly, is any criticism allowed under any circumstances? The kid's not 8 years old, he's 20 years old. He's a grown man I think he can sleep at night with that. He gets TONS of love too, so please stop acting like he's this victim. If your assessment was correct he would be a clear cut 1st rounder if not top 20 type pick. The NBA draft will show us whose assessment was more accurate. I bet he has a good chance of going undrafted with a ceiling of late 2nd round. Obviously I hope he gets picked as close to the top as possible, but my hope means nothing to the NBA. Results do. There are reasons for where you get picked. Zion will be first because he can shoot, he's explosive dunking with a ridiculous vertical, and he's a mature player with freakish skill for his size. He has handled everything thrown his way. Ponds made comments about fans, he tried making refs pick up the ball further away in games on several occasions, there are rumors he has not been totally committed regarding nutrition and working out (which shows because he hasn't gotten visibly more cut IMO in his 3 years here), there are rumors he did not get along with Heron, and some games he just didn't really look like he cared. Is that last one a judgement? Yes. Sorry, sue me...he didn't look like he was giving his all and demonstrated low basketball IQ and has iffy shot selection. You can hope for the absolute best as a fan but also be realistic simultaneously. Don't get why that's so hard to acknowledge.
 
Why is it so hard to just wish Shamorie the best as he begins his professional career. The young man chose to attend St Johns when we really needed him. He could have attended almost any school in the country but decided to stay home.

Over the past three years, Shamorie has done his best to make St Johns relevant again. He has provided us with numerous highlights during his time here. We made the NCAA tournament this year and attendance was up. People in the City were talking about St Johns again. Let's embrace the success that Shamorie had here, since he was one of the best to play for St Johns.
 
[quote="panther2" post=348132]Why is it so hard to just wish Shamorie the best as he begins his professional career. The young man chose to attend St Johns when we really needed him. He could have attended almost any school in the country but decided to stay home.

Over the past three years, Shamorie has done his best to make St Johns relevant again. He has provided us with numerous highlights during his time here. We made the NCAA tournament this year and attendance was up. People in the City were talking about St Johns again. Let's embrace the success that Shamorie had here, since he was one of the best to play for St Johns.[/quote]

Good post and one that makes me wish I had stuck to my guns when telling Paul Massell I was not going to post on the subject anymore only to go into more detail of my opinion of Ponds as a player. And it is only that, an opinion with all the subjectivity associated with opinions. Certainly I wish him the best of fortune going forward.
 
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Shamori had a rough second half of the season.
But c’mon, he’s one of the best we’ve had in the post-Sealy years.
 
I think fatigue and wear is what got to the whole team last season. We ran out of gas.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=348127][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=348125][quote="Beast of the East" post=348035][quote="simplyred" post=347818]It would be presumptuous to try to get into a kid’s head or try to figure out what his motivation is. However, effort, or more specifically, lack of effort is observable. It wasn’t all the time but there were periods in games, and games during the season, where the lack of effort was obvious. It was very disappointing because I went into the season expecting him to be the end of season POY and a late first round draft pick[/quote]

I just think that there was a stretch where Clark in particular was killing it from 3 and 6-8 games where he averaged over 16 ppg. I think Shamorie's best play was when his teammates could make wide open shots delivered to them by Ponds, which opened everything up for him. When they stopped I don't necessarily think his effort stopped, but I think it's clear that he became frustrated by defenses collapsing on him, daring anyone else to make shots. It's a tough gig for a smaller guard to excel in, and by season's end I think he was simply lost, as were his teammates. But I guess we are all entitled to trust our own eyes and make an assessment.[/quote]. Good post , Beast . I don’t get the idea of some that Ponds loafed through games . It’s a BS thought , that’s only as worthy as those who make it . Clark’s game was too streaky and at times , totally non contributory . Especially in the last few games where we needed a few points from him . And, didn’t get any., it cost us Wins . Ponds has nothing to do with Clark’s play, except to wish , like the rest of us that Marvin had scored . To say that Ponds didn’t play hard , is a Crock . As I have said before , I think Ponds often sacrificed his own Scoring to get his teammates involved and it cost us , when they didn’t contribute . Slick has a smoothness to his game and demeanor that might give the impression he isn’t going all out . Seeing him going to the Hoop and many times getting mauled and without a Foul Call has to be disheartening . To me , Ponds played hurt for some of the Season and it wasn’t made public . So , if Zaun wants to side swipe Shamorie again , more Power to him but , I don’t buy the BS .[/quote]

Sly, is any criticism allowed under any circumstances? The kid's not 8 years old, he's 20 years old. He's a grown man I think he can sleep at night with that. He gets TONS of love too, so please stop acting like he's this victim. If your assessment was correct he would be a clear cut 1st rounder if not top 20 type pick. The NBA draft will show us whose assessment was more accurate. I bet he has a good chance of going undrafted with a ceiling of late 2nd round. Obviously I hope he gets picked as close to the top as possible, but my hope means nothing to the NBA. Results do. There are reasons for where you get picked. Zion will be first because he can shoot, he's explosive dunking with a ridiculous vertical, and he's a mature player with freakish skill for his size. He has handled everything thrown his way. Ponds made comments about fans, he tried making refs pick up the ball further away in games on several occasions, there are rumors he has not been totally committed regarding nutrition and working out (which shows because he hasn't gotten visibly more cut IMO in his 3 years here), there are rumors he did not get along with Heron, and some games he just didn't really look like he cared. Is that last one a judgement? Yes. Sorry, sue me...he didn't look like he was giving his all and demonstrated low basketball IQ and has iffy shot selection. You can hope for the absolute best as a fan but also be realistic simultaneously. Don't get why that's so hard to acknowledge.[/quote]. “ Low Basketball IQ?” Ponds has a Basketball IQ that is in the highest percentiles . It’s one of the things the Pro Scouts like about him . He demonstrated he has a Court Vision that is exceptional . Some of the passes he delivered to teammates could have been highlight reels , if they didn’t miss the shots more times than not . As much as Clark’s effort is to be applauded , his second half play was not good for a 5 th year player . He had some just awful games . Simon , while a great , great defender , left a awful lot of points rolling off the rim . These 2 guys underperformed in my book , despite Ponds , getting them the Ball , more than they deserved . Ponds could have shot it, 20 or 25 times a game in my mind but, he didn’t because he is a Team player . Unlike Howard who got all the Ink , to the detriment of his teammates . I think Ponds would have been BE POY , if the supporting cast was just a little better . Figgy and Heron usually contributed , excluding Heron’s last game against Arizona State . And , I do believe Ponds will show a lot in the Combine , when he has a better supporting cast to convert his playmaking . As for your Criticism of Ponds size and not working out , I think that’s a Crock . Shamorie has a slight frame and is not big boned , adding the beefed up look you wanted , would have slowed him down and not improved his game at all . I trust Mullin , being a in shape advocate , made sure Ponds was in top condition . I’m done with debating Ponds career with you . Just wish you would give him the credit he earned over 3 strong years of play .He is clearly the best Player we have had in over 20 Years . But, you keep your opinions and I’ll keep mine . Ponds was not the reason this Team underachieved .
 
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[quote="Logen" post=348135][quote="panther2" post=348132]Why is it so hard to just wish Shamorie the best as he begins his professional career. The young man chose to attend St Johns when we really needed him. He could have attended almost any school in the country but decided to stay home.

Over the past three years, Shamorie has done his best to make St Johns relevant again. He has provided us with numerous highlights during his time here. We made the NCAA tournament this year and attendance was up. People in the City were talking about St Johns again. Let's embrace the success that Shamorie had here, since he was one of the best to play for St Johns.[/quote]

Good post and one that makes me wish I had stuck to my guns when telling Paul Massell I was not going to post on the subject anymore only to go into more detail of my opinion of Ponds as a player. And it is only that, an opinion with all the subjectivity associated with opinions. Certainly I wish him the best of fortune going forward.[/quote]

Yea, except you slammed his effort and character. Zaun called him "low basketball iq".

You guys usually reserve your character judgments for posters and coaches. What you are both implying is the type if stuff that I thought went out in the 70s where certain players were gifted but lazy and others were hard working and smart players but not as athletic.

You will scream bloody murder but these depictions come from.s very bad place and those judgments very carefully imparted, if ever.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=348285][quote="Logen" post=348135][quote="panther2" post=348132]Why is it so hard to just wish Shamorie the best as he begins his professional career. The young man chose to attend St Johns when we really needed him. He could have attended almost any school in the country but decided to stay home.

Over the past three years, Shamorie has done his best to make St Johns relevant again. He has provided us with numerous highlights during his time here. We made the NCAA tournament this year and attendance was up. People in the City were talking about St Johns again. Let's embrace the success that Shamorie had here, since he was one of the best to play for St Johns.[/quote]

Good post and one that makes me wish I had stuck to my guns when telling Paul Massell I was not going to post on the subject anymore only to go into more detail of my opinion of Ponds as a player. And it is only that, an opinion with all the subjectivity associated with opinions. Certainly I wish him the best of fortune going forward.[/quote]

Yea, except you slammed his effort and character. Zaun called him "low basketball iq".

You guys usually reserve your character judgments for posters and coaches. What you are both implying is the type if stuff that I thought went out in the 70s where certain players were gifted but lazy and others were hard working and smart players but not as athletic.

You will scream bloody murder but these depictions come from.s very bad place and those judgments very carefully imparted, if ever.[/quote]

Like the majority of your posts that is an absolute crock of shit. I am implying nothing of the kind but I am saying straight up that any small modicum of respect I had for your pretentious, elitist self has left the building. You want to call me a racist at least have the balls to say it, but your kind never do have the strength of character to carry themselves like a man. Please do not waste your time responding to my posts and I will do the same.
 
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Good for Ponds getting the combine invite. I'm going to guess he goes mid 2nd round and NBA has plenty of guys drafted in 2nd who stick. Wish him luck.
 
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