SHAMORI PONDS DRAFT PROJECTION & SIMON ???

[quote="Red Bloods" post=354345]Like I said from the start pillsbury dough boy Ponds didn’t have a chance in hell of being drafted & unless he suddenly changed ALL his bad habits and got in shape he MIGHT make a roster as the 12th man. Obviously none of that happened & he will be on his way to Europe or the G league. What a waste of talent. Too bad he didn’t get the chance to play for Iron Mike because he would have taken none of his shit and had him in the best shape of his life unlike mello Mullin & his inept staff.

Sad.[/quote]

Sorry, but just a crock. I am not defending Mullin by any means but this is about Ponds. If a player with real pro aspirations needs a coach to convince him to get in shape he is just kidding himself. I sincerely wish Ponds the best but the excuses made for him on this board are ridiculous. If he felt he was man enough to decide to go pro he should have been man enough to get in shape. And oh, by the way, how about just making the effort out of respect for your teammates? I’ll say it again, words to live by, “NEVER want it more than you are willing to work for it”.
 
[quote="Logen" post=354348][quote="Red Bloods" post=354345]Like I said from the start pillsbury dough boy Ponds didn’t have a chance in hell of being drafted & unless he suddenly changed ALL his bad habits and got in shape he MIGHT make a roster as the 12th man. Obviously none of that happened & he will be on his way to Europe or the G league. What a waste of talent. Too bad he didn’t get the chance to play for Iron Mike because he would have taken none of his shit and had him in the best shape of his life unlike mello Mullin & his inept staff.

Sad.[/quote]

Sorry, but just a crock. I am not defending Mullin by any means but this is about Ponds. If a player with real pro aspirations needs a coach to convince him to get in shape he is just kidding himself. I sincerely wish Ponds the best but the excuses made for him on this board are ridiculous. If he felt he was man enough to decide to go pro he should have been man enough to get in shape. And oh, by the way, how about just making the effort out of respect for your teammates? I’ll say it again, words to live by, “NEVER want it more than you are willing to work for it”.[/quote]

Ponds certainly has to take on responsibility but he’s also at a stage in his life where he’s still learning. Leaning on how to be an adult. How to be an athlete. How to be a winnner. That’s a major reason you pick the right school and coaches that will teach you.

The culture of the company I work for now is way different than where I use to work. My previous company was pretty cool with just being good. That energy came all the way down from the CEO. He was a good guy. But very mellow and chill. Never really wanted to disrupt his business or be much better. He was comfortable. Where I’m at now, it’s incredibly different. All the partners are hungry, driven, and look for like minded individual. And let me tell you, it’s rubs off on everyone. It’s competitive. Everyone wants to be at their best. Nobody wants to disappoint. And largely because of that my company is recognized as top 5 nationally.

I’d also mention that when a coach like Cal or K talk to recruits, it’s never about ‘being the man’. They all preach about going up against the very best in practice. Pushing your limits mentally and physically. Nothing is promised to recruits. You have to work for it. I think that’s a powerful reason for a recruit wanting to go to a program. You’re gonna be challenge. And made better.

So yeah, the culture created by Mullin matters. Especially on a young man who’s trying to find his way. You gonna tell me a coach like Wright, Martin, K, Williams, etc wouldn’t have pushed Ponds harder? Wouldn’t have molded his mindset differently in the 3 years he was here? ponds should’ve been working his hardest for the last 3 years not now.

So yeah, Mullin should take a lot of the blame.
 
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[quote="Red Bloods" post=354345]Like I said from the start pillsbury dough boy Ponds didn’t have a chance in hell of being drafted & unless he suddenly changed ALL his bad habits and got in shape he MIGHT make a roster as the 12th man. Obviously none of that happened & he will be on his way to Europe or the G league. What a waste of talent. Too bad he didn’t get the chance to play for Iron Mike because he would have taken none of his shit and had him in the best shape of his life unlike mello Mullin & his inept staff.

Sad.[/quote]

You want to crap on Ponds no problem, but Coach Mullin and his staff are gone and I don’t see the point in crapping on them at this point unless you have some personal axe to grind. Personally I prefer to look forward to the future as opposed to dwelling on the past.
 
[quote="redmen4life" post=354354][quote="Logen" post=354348][quote="Red Bloods" post=354345]Like I said from the start pillsbury dough boy Ponds didn’t have a chance in hell of being drafted & unless he suddenly changed ALL his bad habits and got in shape he MIGHT make a roster as the 12th man. Obviously none of that happened & he will be on his way to Europe or the G league. What a waste of talent. Too bad he didn’t get the chance to play for Iron Mike because he would have taken none of his shit and had him in the best shape of his life unlike mello Mullin & his inept staff.

Sad.[/quote]

Sorry, but just a crock. I am not defending Mullin by any means but this is about Ponds. If a player with real pro aspirations needs a coach to convince him to get in shape he is just kidding himself. I sincerely wish Ponds the best but the excuses made for him on this board are ridiculous. If he felt he was man enough to decide to go pro he should have been man enough to get in shape. And oh, by the way, how about just making the effort out of respect for your teammates? I’ll say it again, words to live by, “NEVER want it more than you are willing to work for it”.[/quote]

Ponds certainly has to take on responsibility but he’s also at a stage in his life where he’s still learning. Leaning on how to be an adult. How to be an athlete. How to be a winnner. That’s a major reason you pick the right school and coaches that will teach you.

The culture of the company I work for now is way different than where I use to work. My previous company was pretty cool with just being good. That energy came all the way down from the CEO. He was a good guy. But very mellow and chill. Never really wanted to disrupt his business or be much better. He was comfortable. Where I’m at now, it’s incredibly different. All the partners are hungry, driven, and look for like minded individual. And let me tell you, it’s rubs off on everyone. It’s competitive. Everyone wants to be at their best. Nobody wants to disappoint. And largely because of that my company is recognized as top 5 nationally.

I’d also mention that when a coach like Cal or K talk to recruits, it’s never about ‘being the man’. They all preach about going up against the very best in practice. Pushing your limits mentally and physically. Nothing is promised to recruits. You have to work for it. I think that’s a powerful reason for a recruit wanting to go to a program. You’re gonna be challenge. And made better.

So yeah, the culture created by Mullin matters. Especially on a young man who’s trying to find his way. You gonna tell me a coach like Wright, Martin, K, Williams, etc wouldn’t have pushed Ponds harder? Wouldn’t have molded his mindset differently in the 3 years he was here? ponds should’ve been working his hardest for the last 3 years not now.

So yeah, Mullin should take a lot of the blame.[/quote]

Well, that’s the difference between me and a lot of posters I guess. My parents molded me, not a coach, a teacher, or a boss. I learned at an early age to control what I can control and take responsibility for my decisions, good and bad. To have strength in my convictions but be man enough to admit when I was wrong. If you want to blame Mullin for Ponds being out of shape, you are entitled to your opinion. I think it is an absolute crock. If you think Mullin should have pushed harder, ok, I get it; but at the end of the day, what Ponds did concerning his career, both college and pro, is on Ponds, no one else. So Ponds was mature enough to make a decision to turn pro but not mature enough to understand he needed to be in shape to maximize his chances? Hogwash.....Me, I think the world is a much worse place in general for the loss of the concept of personal responsibility and replaced with the “victim” mentality.
 
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All you need to know about Ponds is in his liked tweets. He's been liking tweets blaming the Rockets for playing him out of position, tweets saying he should play PG over Clements and Chiozza, and how his summer league team is "terribly coached."

I've been a season ticket holder throughout Ponds tenure at SJU, so I saw most of his home games while he was here. There were times I would turn to my buddy and just be like "wow", because he would do some special things on the court. Unfortunately though I think his lack of commitment and lackadaisical attitude were his undoing.

There's no doubt in my mind if you gave Shamorie Justin Simon's mental makeup and attitude that he would have not only been drafted, but probably in the first round. Now he's destined for a career overseas, which is nothing to be ashamed of, but after seeing some of the special plays he could make, and his pure talent it's definitely a disappointment.
 
[quote="redmen4life" post=354354][quote="Logen" post=354348][quote="Red Bloods" post=354345]Like I said from the start pillsbury dough boy Ponds didn’t have a chance in hell of being drafted & unless he suddenly changed ALL his bad habits and got in shape he MIGHT make a roster as the 12th man. Obviously none of that happened & he will be on his way to Europe or the G league. What a waste of talent. Too bad he didn’t get the chance to play for Iron Mike because he would have taken none of his shit and had him in the best shape of his life unlike mello Mullin & his inept staff.

Sad.[/quote]

Sorry, but just a crock. I am not defending Mullin by any means but this is about Ponds. If a player with real pro aspirations needs a coach to convince him to get in shape he is just kidding himself. I sincerely wish Ponds the best but the excuses made for him on this board are ridiculous. If he felt he was man enough to decide to go pro he should have been man enough to get in shape. And oh, by the way, how about just making the effort out of respect for your teammates? I’ll say it again, words to live by, “NEVER want it more than you are willing to work for it”.[/quote]

Ponds certainly has to take on responsibility but he’s also at a stage in his life where he’s still learning. Leaning on how to be an adult. How to be an athlete. How to be a winnner. That’s a major reason you pick the right school and coaches that will teach you.

The culture of the company I work for now is way different than where I use to work. My previous company was pretty cool with just being good. That energy came all the way down from the CEO. He was a good guy. But very mellow and chill. Never really wanted to disrupt his business or be much better. He was comfortable. Where I’m at now, it’s incredibly different. All the partners are hungry, driven, and look for like minded individual. And let me tell you, it’s rubs off on everyone. It’s competitive. Everyone wants to be at their best. Nobody wants to disappoint. And largely because of that my company is recognized as top 5 nationally.

I’d also mention that when a coach like Cal or K talk to recruits, it’s never about ‘being the man’. They all preach about going up against the very best in practice. Pushing your limits mentally and physically. Nothing is promised to recruits. You have to work for it. I think that’s a powerful reason for a recruit wanting to go to a program. You’re gonna be challenge. And made better.

So yeah, the culture created by Mullin matters. Especially on a young man who’s trying to find his way. You gonna tell me a coach like Wright, Martin, K, Williams, etc wouldn’t have pushed Ponds harder? Wouldn’t have molded his mindset differently in the 3 years he was here? ponds should’ve been working his hardest for the last 3 years not now.

So yeah, Mullin should take a lot of the blame.[/quote]

It's not on mullin. He could only do so much at practice. It's not about what they do during practice, its more about what they are doing outside of practice.....on their own. During the official season, they are practicing maybe 2-3hrs a day maybe? It's takes a lot more than just the scheduled practice to make it. I doubt Zion or Morant went to practice and then decided they were done for the day and that's all they needed to do. That was solely on Ponds, and it appears that he didn't do that.
 
Mullin constantly preached conditioning and cardio, treating your body correctly and eating better. Ponds has/had terrible eating habits. He worked on his body in the weight room. Look at this freshman year pics to now. It wasn't enough because he couldn't get away from the bad habits. He JUST started to eat "better" . I wouldn't count him out just yet though.

Big time programs have separate cafeterias for their athletes, provide nutritionists, massage therapists etc... Unfortunately St. John's administration doesn't put an emphasis on these things. They are cheap. They let a great strength and conditioning coach go over salary and then hired a bargain guy. Mike Cragg wasn't here for this. Hopefully these things are changing .
 
I am somewhere in the middle of this Ponds discussion. Certainly a player of Ponds talent should have been doing whatever necessary to make himself the best player possible if he wanted to have a shot at the NBA. This includes what has been already said. Putting in additional work on everything from shooting, defense, strength training and nutrition. Blaming others and making excuses doesn't get you anywhere. On the flip side the school and coaches should be doing everything possible to help a special talent achieve their goals. I have no idea what was going on in regards to this but the resources that are put into the program are often poorly allocated and the teams results on the court have not exactly been stellar. They also don't put a lot of kids in the NBA which if you are not a strong willed person makes it even tougher as you may not see the work that needs to go in before it is too late. It is not good that a player of Ponds level has not reached his full potential. In this case it may be more on the player but it is not a perception that helps a basketball program.
 
Part of the problem with Ponds as I see it at least, was that our roster was so thin, that the coaching staff had little alternative to playing him even if he wasn't playing well.

A college kid shouldn't need to be motivated to play well, not with the stakes Ponds was playing for. Even so, just because it appeared Ponds wasn't always playing hard, what makes everyone think that the staff wasn't on him for it? So many kids are coddled all the way through or believe their own social media hype, they quit when challenged or benched (see Nurideen Lindsay and many others).

Bottom line is that bringing intensity every minute you are on the court, being in game shape, working outside of practices to improve yourself, etc etc is a talent by itself. People that aren't gifted athletically as Ponds sometimes believe that hard work, diligence, focus, and determination to succeed are simply ethics, and not talents. Whether they are right or wrong, Ponds either isn't really all that good, or hasn't worked as hard as other with similar talents who are succeeding.
 
It’s unbelievable the still lingering criticism of Ponds exists . And , not only at him but , Mullin too. The most significant obstacle to Shamorie not being drafted is that despite all his accomplishments and there were many , is he is 5’11 inches tall with a small Body frame . He wasn’t Simon at 6’5”” and now matter what he did with his body , he would never fit the NBA prototype size standards ... We saw many times he went to the Rack with a great move but, was still blocked or hacked and didn’t finish . I still think Ponds never got many calls from BE Refs . Calls that Howard got all the time . But , that’s old news . Blaming Ponds and Mullin for not getting drafted is BS , pure and simple .
 
I find it very interesting to see how this board views D'Angelo Harrison Vs Shamorie Ponds once they both left the school. If I remember correctly, Harrison was criticized extensively during his middle years, but was widely praised after he graduated. Ponds, it seems the exact opposite.

For me, the difference is clearly in attitude, lack of humility, and effort.

It's really a bit sad to me that one of our greatest scorers in school history will be remembered this way.
 
[quote="Room112" post=354402]I find it very interesting to see how this board views D'Angelo Harrison Vs Shamorie Ponds once they both left the school. If I remember correctly, Harrison was criticized extensively during his middle years, but was widely praised after he graduated. Ponds, it seems the exact opposite.

For me, the difference is clearly in attitude, lack of humility, and effort.

It's really a bit sad to me that one of our greatest scorers in school history will be remembered this way.[/quote]

THis is a really good post. There are some distinct differences in both players, and I think it would be interesting to discuss how we would rate each basketball wise.

Obviously though, Harrison is viewed differently, and perhaps unfairly to his benefit for the following reasons:

1) Harrison is a story of redemption, one where he was on the precipice of blowing his entire college career because of the straw that broke the camel's back with his outburst in game to coaching staff while Lavin was away at his father's funeral. The work he did with John Lucas to reign in his anger issues and how he returned and appeared to channel all of his energy into hard nosed basketball. He was contrite, and instead of blaming Lavin or making excuses, sincerely thanked Lavin for both disciplining him and keeping him. In short he was a man about the whole thing.
2) Harrison sort of gets a pass on the team's failures in his senior season, the only season he played in the NCAA's. He began the season as a man on a mission, and went on a tear that propelled him into consideration as a Wooden award finalist. It was only when a shoulder injury, incurred on the court by his physical play that derailed him and the season in process. Without a healthy Harrison, and without the tourney suspended Obekpa, the team didn't have a prayer, even against a weak San Diego State team where coincidentally we faced Polee, an ex Redmen.
3) Harrison was refreshingly honest about his pro prospects, knowing he wasn't an NBA caliber player. When asked what he'd like to do after college, he would tell his grandmother he wanted to be an announcer.
4) D'Angelo is a great interview - articulate, well spoken, with candid well thought out responses to questions.

It's not fair to compare D'Angelo's personna to Shamorie's, but is fair to note that without being critical of Shamorie's basketball skills, his promising junior team collapsed when Lovett quit,and his senior team went into the dumper in crunch time of the Big East season, in the BET, and the NCAAs. As our best player, unfairly or not, much of the blame is directed at him.
 
[quote="Andrew" post=354373]I am somewhere in the middle of this Ponds discussion. Certainly a player of Ponds talent should have been doing whatever necessary to make himself the best player possible if he wanted to have a shot at the NBA. This includes what has been already said. Putting in additional work on everything from shooting, defense, strength training and nutrition. Blaming others and making excuses doesn't get you anywhere. On the flip side the school and coaches should be doing everything possible to help a special talent achieve their goals. I have no idea what was going on in regards to this but the resources that are put into the program are often poorly allocated and the teams results on the court have not exactly been stellar. They also don't put a lot of kids in the NBA which if you are not a strong willed person makes it even tougher as you may not see the work that needs to go in before it is too late. It is not good that a player of Ponds level has not reached his full potential. In this case it may be more on the player but it is not a perception that helps a basketball program.[/quote]

Was Ponds really that special of a talent though? He was very good for us, but I don't know if I would necessarily call him 'special'. He definitely had his moments, but he also disappeared in a lot of games too.
 
How many of you all realize that St. Johns did not have a Strength and Conditioning coach all of last summer. Now Mullin and Richmond were also absent and in California. This is not the way to run a Big East program. Shamorie is dealing with the results of his attitude now. He should have been more self motivated. However, to try to absolve the previous staff for any responsibility in his poor performance is just wrong. In any business, the CEO is responsible for the production of his employees, college basketball is no different. Everyone is not self motivated, particularly 20 year olds. You can't expect a business to run itself which is essentially what was going on with St. Johns basketball last summer.

In fairness to Coach Mullin, I don't think that he knew what would be expected of him as a college basketball coach on a daily basis and was overwhelmed when he found out it was a 12 month a year job.

The most important lesson that I learned in my 30 years as a Substance Abuse and then a Vocational Counselor is "that patients/clients will not care about how much you know, until they know how much you care". The same can be said of coaches, players they to feel that coaches care for them as individuals first and foremost, and then for what they can contribute on the court.

Y'all can say what you want about Lavin, but his players knew that he cared about them. All of his players that stayed, grew and matured under his tutelage. You don't have to look any further than D'Angelo Harrison for confirmation.

In addition, when Lavin had his camp in the summer, players like Justin, Paris, DJ, Malik Boothe, Sean Evans were there. Also Anthony Glover and Kyle Cuffe.
 
Panther,

I always respect your posts and the one above is no exception. It seems to me that there is a fine line as to the responsibilities of the CEO or Coach and the individuals own responsibilities. I believe we are all responsible for our own actions, and if 20 year olds are to be given a pass because of their age, then just maybe the voting age in this country is too low.
 
Al Bovino,

If you look, I did not give Shamorie a pass. He is responsible for his behavior. However, the staff has to be held accountable also for allowing this behavior. In any workplace,when someone is slacking off, it is the responsibility of Management to address the issue. How can you address something if you are 3,000 miles away?
 
[quote="panther2" post=354448]Al Bovino,

If you look, I did not give Shamorie a pass. He is responsible for his behavior. However, the staff has to be held accountable also for allowing this behavior. In any workplace,when someone is slacking off, it is the responsibility of Management to address the issue. How can you address something if you are 3,000 miles away?[/quote]

It actually sounds like Bovino is trying to give the previous staff a pass . . . yet again.
 
[quote="L J S A" post=354450][quote="panther2" post=354448]Al Bovino,

If you look, I did not give Shamorie a pass. He is responsible for his behavior. However, the staff has to be held accountable also for allowing this behavior. In any workplace,when someone is slacking off, it is the responsibility of Management to address the issue. How can you address something if you are 3,000 miles away?[/quote]

It actually sounds like Bovino is trying to give the previous staff a pass . . . yet again.[/quote]

Shocker.
 
Chris Mullin could throw a basketball at Al Bovino's face breaking his nose with no one else around and he would tell people his face flew into the basketball.
 
Same typical bunch of jerks. My response to Panther had to do with Ponds not Mullin. Ponds has made decisions about how to proceed with his career that have nothing to do with Mullin. The person primarily responsible for Ponds being out of shape and his poor play is Ponds himself. Blaming others for one's own failures is part of our current culture, which coddles losers and promotes a lack of responsibility for one's actions.
 
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