SHAMORI PONDS DRAFT PROJECTION & SIMON ???

[quote="AlBovino" post=354454]Same typical bunch of jerks. My response to Panther had to do with Ponds not Mullin. Ponds has made decisions about how to proceed with his career that have nothing to do with Mullin. The person primarily responsible for Ponds being out of shape and his poor play is Ponds himself. Blaming others for one's own failures is part of our current culture, which coddles losers and promotes a lack of responsibility for one's actions.[/quote]

Right, I'm sure you did everything perfect in your late teens and twenties without proper guidance from coaches and instructors :). Ponds has not failed at anything, he is going to make a tremendous living playing basketball for (hopefully) a long time.
 
I think the blame lies with both Ponds and the former staff.
Ponds didn't dedicate himself to the level others have to achieve the goal of playing in the NBA and the Staff failed miserably in putting him on a path (and keeping him on it) that would put him in the best position possible to realize his dream of playing in the NBA.

Ponds is an adult. He's responsible for his decisions. He chose to come here and play for a staff with no track record of success developing players. He chose to stay here, even after getting minimal direction from the staff. He chose not to seek to develop his body and game outside if the structure the staff "provided". Doesn't make him a bad kid. Just means he made some bad decisions with regards to preparing for the NBA.

Our former staff didn't do much of anything to correct those errors, which is part of the reason they are our "former staff". They get some blame, but Ponds has to own his choices.
 
Now get off my lawn before I throw my cane at you!

But seriously blame is obviously shared however as an executive it is your fault, even if it's your subordinates fault. End of story.

At the end of the day the inept staff let it happen, it wouldn't happen at a program with successful management from a professional, qualified staff. Unfortunately neither were present.
 
Here’s my .02 on this discussion. I come with a slightly different perspective. My favorite team obviously is my alma mater, St. John’s. My second favorite is the school that I sent my son to, Purdue. He and I would playfully argue on who was the better player, Ponds or Carson Edwards.
Initially, I was in great shape. Ponds definitely had the early advantage. However Edwards worked on his game, and became the player that you saw in the tourney last season. Both are undersized guards, that can get to the basket. The difference? Edwards has a much better and more consistent jump shot, out to 3 point range. He also plays defense with abandon and although there were a couple of poor shooting games during the season, his effort could never be questioned.

In short, my feelings on Ponds are simple. He’s an undersized guard without a good jumper. That’s a tough proposition for making an NBA roster. He could have and should have done more to prepare himself. And the coaching staff did not help. However the fatal flaw in his game that will send him overseas or to the G league is his game itself.
 
[quote="Eric Williamson" post=354443][quote="Andrew" post=354373]I am somewhere in the middle of this Ponds discussion. Certainly a player of Ponds talent should have been doing whatever necessary to make himself the best player possible if he wanted to have a shot at the NBA. This includes what has been already said. Putting in additional work on everything from shooting, defense, strength training and nutrition. Blaming others and making excuses doesn't get you anywhere. On the flip side the school and coaches should be doing everything possible to help a special talent achieve their goals. I have no idea what was going on in regards to this but the resources that are put into the program are often poorly allocated and the teams results on the court have not exactly been stellar. They also don't put a lot of kids in the NBA which if you are not a strong willed person makes it even tougher as you may not see the work that needs to go in before it is too late. It is not good that a player of Ponds level has not reached his full potential. In this case it may be more on the player but it is not a perception that helps a basketball program.[/quote]

Was Ponds really that special of a talent though? He was very good for us, but I don't know if I would necessarily call him 'special'. He definitely had his moments, but he also disappeared in a lot of games too.[/quote]

I would definitely call Ponds a special player. It's easy to pile on him now. But once again, he was one of the best in program history. We haven't had a scorer like him in a long time, and will definitely miss him.
 
[quote="austour" post=354465]Now get off my lawn before I throw my cane at you!

But seriously blame is obviously shared however as an executive it is your fault, even if it's your subordinates fault. End of story.

At the end of the day the inept staff let it happen, it wouldn't happen at a program with successful management from a professional, qualified staff. Unfortunately neither were present.[/quote]

Oh, nonsense. Please tell me the “professional, qualified staff” that NEVER had a player not realize their potential.
 
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[quote="panther2" post=354444]How many of you all realize that St. Johns did not have a Strength and Conditioning coach all of last summer. Now Mullin and Richmond were also absent and in California. This is not the way to run a Big East program. Shamorie is dealing with the results of his attitude now. He should have been more self motivated. However, to try to absolve the previous staff for any responsibility in his poor performance is just wrong. In any business, the CEO is responsible for the production of his employees, college basketball is no different. Everyone is not self motivated, particularly 20 year olds. You can't expect a business to run itself which is essentially what was going on with St. Johns basketball last summer.

In fairness to Coach Mullin, I don't think that he knew what would be expected of him as a college basketball coach on a daily basis and was overwhelmed when he found out it was a 12 month a year job.

The most important lesson that I learned in my 30 years as a Substance Abuse and then a Vocational Counselor is "that patients/clients will not care about how much you know, until they know how much you care". The same can be said of coaches, players they to feel that coaches care for them as individuals first and foremost, and then for what they can contribute on the court.

Y'all can say what you want about Lavin, but his players knew that he cared about them. All of his players that stayed, grew and matured under his tutelage. You don't have to look any further than D'Angelo Harrison for confirmation.

In addition, when Lavin had his camp in the summer, players like Justin, Paris, DJ, Malik Boothe, Sean Evans were there. Also Anthony Glover and Kyle Cuffe.[/quote]
Great post. While Shamorie, like any 20 year old, is responsible for finding his way...his parents and coaches still bear responsibility for providing some tough love, guidance and a kick in the rear when needed.
 
forget his training and conditioning while at SJU... It was good enough to average 35 minutes/game and generate 1,870 points over three seasons.

he seems leaner and has been practicing for months since season ended with many team invites and now summer league.

To me the current issue is still not making shots in Summer League... especially from the perimeter when not aggressively guarded. Running laps and eating protein bars after doing dumbbell curls is not going to fix his shot.
 
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Been following SJU hoops closely for well over 50 years. I would say Ponds had a very good Johnnie career but would not consider him an all-time great, certainly not in top 5 or 6 SJU players I have watched. He was a great scorer who could completely take over and win a game at times. I don't think his problem is or ever was his shot or ability to score. More had to do with leadership qualities, lack of commitment to defense and tendency to disappear at times. Not impossible that he catches on with Rockets after some time in G league, but he is going to need to make some changes for that to happen. Just my opinion and lord knows I am often wrong....
 
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[quote="Logen" post=354472][quote="austour" post=354465]Now get off my lawn before I throw my cane at you!

But seriously blame is obviously shared however as an executive it is your fault, even if it's your subordinates fault. End of story.

At the end of the day the inept staff let it happen, it wouldn't happen at a program with successful management from a professional, qualified staff. Unfortunately neither were present.[/quote]

Oh, nonsense. Please tell me the “professional, qualified staff” that NEVER had a player not realize their potential.[/quote]

Sorry when I wrote this I assumed you would understand that I was complaining about a staff that did not have any of their players realize their potential, Shamori is just the exsmple we are discussing now.
 
What I completely hate about this entire subject is that not a single one of us (yes us) experts was complaining about Ponds effort or conditioning when he got out of the gates strong this past season, was logging a ton of minutes, and played like the kid who had heard the criticisms from scouts who graded him.at the NBA workouts summer of 2018. At that time he was given credit for refining his game, working on shot selection, making his teammates better, and reducing mistakes and turnovers. Probably high point was how he closed out the Georgetown game.

He was a completely different player over over the last 5 or 6 big east season games, the BET, and 1 NCAA game. Unfortunately he appeared to lose focus, or was just part of the team's collapse, but I can say that that before the collapse no one was complaining one bit about his conditioning, ability, or attitude.
 
[quote="panther2" post=354444]

In fairness to Coach Mullin, I don't think that he knew what would be expected of him as a college basketball coach on a daily basis and was overwhelmed when he found out it was a 12 month a year job.

Y'all can say what you want about Lavin, but his players knew that he cared about them. All of his players that stayed, grew and matured under his tutelage. You don't have to look any further than D'Angelo Harrison for confirmation.

[/quote]

We have been so critical of the coaches that were fired from here, and generally has tended to portray them negatively in all ways. Using Redmen.com as a sounding board, something you get crapped on immediately for doing otherwise, but people generally come around after a while.

There was continually a lot of negative reaction when I gave Lavin a lot of credit for giving D'Angelo a second chance. The kids really liked him a lot and I think his relationships with his players went far beyond basketball. He had on court clashes with Obekpa, but it's clear from some of their social media exchanges that they have a warm and close relationship today.

I've read that one of Joe Lapchick's most important rules with players were that there were no rules. The reason for that to him was that every kid is different and needs different things from a coach, so how you respond to a kid stepping out of line can't be doled out equally. Lavin seemed to be in this camp.

We also crapped mericelly (and somewhat deservedly) on Mike Jarvis, but also gave him no props whatsoever. However, he was probably by a wide margin our best bench coach in quite some time.

I've said a lot about my support of Coach Mullin and staff, and while the deficiencies were obvious to most, he brought a lot back to the program. He got us to the dance in 4 years, and probably would have in year 3 if Lovett hadn't quit from another thin roster. The reason that we had our best attendance in 27 years is directly related to not only a good team, by a good team coached by Chris Mullin. I also know that our players felt strongly about him, and that it was mutual.

You are correct that coach's job is to prepare players to play in all ways, and that part of coaching strategy is to put each player in a role that he can be most successful - leveraging his abilities to the max, and helping the team win.
 
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Imagine a coach walking into a kid’s living room and telling the parents: I really want your son to come play for me but he is totally responsible for his own success or failure. I take no responsibility for pushing him to be his best. If he doesn’t make it, I am not at all to blame. Now, do I have his commitment?
 
[quote="simplyred" post=354532]Imagine a coach walking into a kid’s living room and telling the parents: I really want your son to come play for me but he is totally responsible for his own success or failure. I take no responsibility for pushing him to be his best. If he doesn’t make it, I am not at all to blame. Now, do I have his commitment?[/quote]

Who said that? Further, isn’t Mullin gone? The discussion is not whether Mullin was a good coach, he wasn’t and as such, was let go. The argument was whether Ponds needed to be pushed TO GET IN SHAPE!! Junior high athletes know you need to be in shape to perform at your best, but it escaped an aspiring NBA player? My last word, this thread has turned surreal and I am sorry for my contribution to that.
 
[quote="Logen" post=354533][quote="simplyred" post=354532]Imagine a coach walking into a kid’s living room and telling the parents: I really want your son to come play for me but he is totally responsible for his own success or failure. I take no responsibility for pushing him to be his best. If he doesn’t make it, I am not at all to blame. Now, do I have his commitment?[/quote]

Who said that? Further, isn’t Mullin gone? The discussion is not whether Mullin was a good coach, he wasn’t and as such, was let go. The argument was whether Ponds needed to be pushed TO GET IN SHAPE!! Junior high athletes know you need to be in shape to perform at your best, but it escaped an aspiring NBA player? My last word, this thread has turned surreal and I am sorry for my contribution to that.[/quote]
Wow. Let's all just say both a player and a coach has responsibilities and end it already. :eek:hmy: :cheer:
 
[quote="austour" post=354487][quote="Logen" post=354472][quote="austour" post=354465]Now get off my lawn before I throw my cane at you!

But seriously blame is obviously shared however as an executive it is your fault, even if it's your subordinates fault. End of story.

At the end of the day the inept staff let it happen, it wouldn't happen at a program with successful management from a professional, qualified staff. Unfortunately neither were present.[/quote]

Oh, nonsense. Please tell me the “professional, qualified staff” that NEVER had a player not realize their potential.[/quote]

Sorry when I wrote this I assumed you would understand that I was complaining about a staff that did not have any of their players realize their potential, Shamori is just the exsmple we are discussing now.[/quote]

Sorry but this was a singular Ponds thread, not sure why you would assume one would know your post addressed the whole team. Not sure, emphasis on not sure, you could paint Simon and Figueroa with that brush but that would be a whole different discussion.
 
[quote="bamafan" post=354534][quote="Logen" post=354533][quote="simplyred" post=354532]Imagine a coach walking into a kid’s living room and telling the parents: I really want your son to come play for me but he is totally responsible for his own success or failure. I take no responsibility for pushing him to be his best. If he doesn’t make it, I am not at all to blame. Now, do I have his commitment?[/quote]

Who said that? Further, isn’t Mullin gone? The discussion is not whether Mullin was a good coach, he wasn’t and as such, was let go. The argument was whether Ponds needed to be pushed TO GET IN SHAPE!! Junior high athletes know you need to be in shape to perform at your best, but it escaped an aspiring NBA player? My last word, this thread has turned surreal and I am sorry for my contribution to that.[/quote]
Wow. Let's all just say both a player and a coach has responsibilities and end it already. :eek:hmy: :cheer:[/quote]

I lied because you hit a pet peeve. Why don’t you just stop reading if it exasperates you so?
 
[quote="Logen" post=354536][quote="bamafan" post=354534][quote="Logen" post=354533][quote="simplyred" post=354532]Imagine a coach walking into a kid’s living room and telling the parents: I really want your son to come play for me but he is totally responsible for his own success or failure. I take no responsibility for pushing him to be his best. If he doesn’t make it, I am not at all to blame. Now, do I have his commitment?[/quote]

Who said that? Further, isn’t Mullin gone? The discussion is not whether Mullin was a good coach, he wasn’t and as such, was let go. The argument was whether Ponds needed to be pushed TO GET IN SHAPE!! Junior high athletes know you need to be in shape to perform at your best, but it escaped an aspiring NBA player? My last word, this thread has turned surreal and I am sorry for my contribution to that.[/quote]
Wow. Let's all just say both a player and a coach has responsibilities and end it already. :eek:hmy: :cheer:[/quote]

I lied because you hit a pet peeve. Why don’t you just stop reading if it exasperates you so?[/quote]
You're the one who said the thread had become surreal and you apologized for your contributions to it. But thanks for the advice I'll save some time from reading your posts.
 
[quote="Logen" post=354535][quote="austour" post=354487][quote="Logen" post=354472][quote="austour" post=354465]Now get off my lawn before I throw my cane at you!

But seriously blame is obviously shared however as an executive it is your fault, even if it's your subordinates fault. End of story.

At the end of the day the inept staff let it happen, it wouldn't happen at a program with successful management from a professional, qualified staff. Unfortunately neither were present.[/quote]

Oh, nonsense. Please tell me the “professional, qualified staff” that NEVER had a player not realize their potential.[/quote]

Sorry when I wrote this I assumed you would understand that I was complaining about a staff that did not have any of their players realize their potential, Shamori is just the exsmple we are discussing now.[/quote]

Sorry but this was a singular Ponds thread, not sure why you would assume one would know your post addressed the whole team. Not sure, emphasis on not sure, you could paint Simon and Figueroa with that brush but that would be a whole different discussion.[/quote]

Sorry, I was partially kidding and partially playing on the fact that everyone knows I had no faith in the staff since they were a rumor days before they were hired. But re Justin and LJ, did either of them improve much during Mullin's tenure? Just because they were better than anyone thought they'd be who's to say they weren't that good when they arrived? Simon was a top 50 recruit who got no burn at Arizona and Fig was a JCAA. Did either outperform my expectations? Nope.
 
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