Roster Turnover

[monte]

 Well said BF. 
 

Monte, I had no idea that you had a boyfriend!  Or maybe you just forgot the other F in BFF.  /media/kunena/emoticons/silly.png

Aside from that - folks, please just TRY to work with us here.  We already had to split a disaster of a thread into the SJU targets versus the Transfer Portal generally.  Now we had to split the SJU targets thread again to get the turnover debate out of it.

Please please please try to stay on topic.  Start another thread if you must - if there are duplicate threads we can always merge and rename them - which is a lot easier than picking out posts and moving them, believe me.

Thanks.

Now back to your regularly scheduled bickering and doomscrolling.

I realized after I hit "submit" that I should have added the extra F. I thought about going back and doing it, but I knew it would have devastated Mike Maher lol 
 

 

[JohnnyFan]

Wusu will be a better AND healthier player than Williams when all is said and done. You guys are sleeping on him. He has the intangibles to become a good player. The NYC kids were the best players on the team and/or had CMA's confidence. Hence why we saw Posh, Champ, Wusu, and Dunn late in games. It's clear all the seniors saw the writing on the wall. They've been practicing against our remaining players all season. I will note, I don't think a healthy Williams would be in the transfer portal.

It is what it is, but I feel like our fan base is overrating Wusu (who I like) and underrating Greg Williams.  I hope Wusu continues to develop.
 

 

[Amaseinyourface]

If I remember correctly this years record was 16-11 NOT 16-15! That is a fine improvement over 2020,62%  vs 52% winning percentage.It probably would have been a 4 -5 win increase based on full season!No reason why that can’t be improved upon again next year, even if Julian defects. I’d still bet on CMA and his system! 

I’m not talking about this season.

im saying, there better not be fans who would be happy if we go 16-15 in the future just because it preserves some streak. F the streak if we aren’t making NCAA Tournaments 

Why are you losing your mind about what other fans think about the streak?  
You talk about its all about making NCAA Tournaments but then incessantly complain about a bunch of non-making tournament players moving on, BTW most who contributed very little to this team.

If your goal is to make tournaments then you should be happy that this staff has a chance to bring in better talent than the ones that have been here the last 2 years and did not achieve your said objective.

I for one, believe all of the players that left can be replaced or improved upon - with exception of Champ.  
Let's see who's on this team come October and then we can all lose our collective shat if need be!

Show me better players and I'll STFU. So far it's about the same except the new kids have to learn CMA's system. So this is a case of  subtraction by addition; same level of talent coming in with no knowledge of CMA's system. So far I see a wash, maybe. 



 

No one is telling you to STFU... If it makes you feel better to whine and bitch, have at it. 
Just don't understand the ad nauseum complaints... It's like we lost a bunch of star players who got us into the tournament that can't be replaced.  These are and were players that were not successful in getting us into the tournament.  Why on earth should we be up in arms about them leaving?  

There are 2 guys that I would have liked to stay and that's Williams and Moore.  I believe both have the ability to play at this level, all of the others were mismatched and we saw that pretty much every game.





 

Honest question, how many bench players in the BE do you think had bigger impact than Earlington? Not perfect but his play was huge in some big wins. Mike Anderson plays 9 guys. Our bench production was tops in the big East so obviously these guys were providing something.

 

[MainMan]

No one is telling you to STFU... If it makes you feel better to whine and bitch, have at it. 
Just don't understand the ad nauseum complaints... It's like we lost a bunch of star players who got us into the tournament that can't be replaced.  These are and were players that were not successful in getting us into the tournament.  Why on earth should we be up in arms about them leaving?  

There are 2 guys that I would have liked to stay and that's Williams and Moore.  I believe both have the ability to play at this level, all of the others were mismatched and we saw that pretty much every game.





 

Contrary to popular belief, St. John's was not a 2 man team of Champ and Posh.
Our transfers were part of a core that helped us go from 9th to 4th place - not something to sneeze at.
The trajectory for next season was clear.
Not so much anymore. 

 

 

[bamafan]

If I remember correctly this years record was 16-11 NOT 16-15! That is a fine improvement over 2020,62%  vs 52% winning percentage.It probably would have been a 4 -5 win increase based on full season!No reason why that can’t be improved upon again next year, even if Julian defects. I’d still bet on CMA and his system! 

I’m not talking about this season.

im saying, there better not be fans who would be happy if we go 16-15 in the future just because it preserves some streak. F the streak if we aren’t making NCAA Tournaments 

Why are you losing your mind about what other fans think about the streak?  
You talk about its all about making NCAA Tournaments but then incessantly complain about a bunch of non-making tournament players moving on, BTW most who contributed very little to this team.

If your goal is to make tournaments then you should be happy that this staff has a chance to bring in better talent than the ones that have been here the last 2 years and did not achieve your said objective.

I for one, believe all of the players that left can be replaced or improved upon - with exception of Champ.  
Let's see who's on this team come October and then we can all lose our collective shat if need be!

Show me better players and I'll STFU. So far it's about the same except the new kids have to learn CMA's system. So this is a case of  subtraction by addition; same level of talent coming in with no knowledge of CMA's system. So far I see a wash, maybe. 


 

No one is telling you to STFU... If it makes you feel better to whine and bitch, have at it. 
Just don't understand the ad nauseum complaints... It's like we lost a bunch of star players who got us into the tournament that can't be replaced.  These are and were players that were not successful in getting us into the tournament.  Why on earth should we be up in arms about them leaving?  

There are 2 guys that I would have liked to stay and that's Williams and Moore.  I believe both have the ability to play at this level, all of the others were mismatched and we saw that pretty much every game.




 

Why you bitching and whining about losing Williams and Moore? See just because some people might have a difference of opinion than you doesn't mean their opinion should be labeled bitching and whining.

 

[MCNPA]

I think it was a perfect storm of factors.  Some kids like GWill, Moore and Earlington were unhappy with their roles for some reason.  The only head-scratcher is GWill because he played as much as his injury would have allowed and maybe he just figured he should get most of Dunn’s minutes?  I dunno.  Here’s my best guess.

McGriff-  wants to play more and bit much Pt in sight behind Posh and his inability to slide over and play SG

G-will-  No idea.  Lavin recruit. Anderson treated him with kid gloves.  Maybe family influence? I don’t know.

Dunn- thought he was going to move on to try to play overseas or something.  Only reason I can see is that maybe he wants to run the full-time PG spot for somebody.  

Moore-  came in and thought he was the man and he was close.  Got plenty of time but obviously see eye to eye and we know his “social issues”

Cole-  a step slow for this style of play.  I get it.  Wasn’t a fit.

Roberts- not for this level. Likely transfer to appropriate level.

Earlington-  thinks he’s a shooting guard and is not.  Figures maybe somebody else will give him a chance to do so.  Became a good shooter and helped us off the bench with solid minutes.  IMO refused to play ball inside the arc and it seems was unhappy with that.  Also a Lavin recruit.

Caraher- transfer to better level.  

I will add that I wonder how many of the kids like Cole and Moore wanted to put the work in that cma required of them.  Practices are hard and a grind. 

I think coupling all the above with this extra free year and free transfer and lots figured they’d ship themselves around.  Kida have to be re-recruited and many want that for various reasons.  

I think CMA needs to find kida that full understand how we play and want to play that way and understand that we play a deep roster, not just 5 guys. It’s our style and what we do. 

Guys like Posh, wusu and Champ seem to thrive in this style and buy in.  


 

 

[Amaseinyourface]

MCN good post, doin your best to forget the Mullin years?

 

[Moose]

Florida and Mike White have lost 6 players over the last two weeks. So it’s happening in a lot of places. 

And they made the tournament.  That's a worse optic in my eyes.
As much as Greg and Marcellus were good soldiers we didn't win with them here.  They want to leave and I support that.  And of course I hope CMA brings in kids that he feels can elevate us further.

Could have been the first four year players at sju to have 4 winning seasons in? 25 years? Yea that says a lot about us but I don’t think they weren’t winning players.

I'm not diminishing their talents.  But you and I both know the true definition of 'winning' in college sports.  We 'danced' in their freshman year where only Greg played a role.  2nd year we weren't dancing unless we won the BET.  This year we didn't dance.  They were good role players on a team IMO.  If they wanted to stick around and be 6-10 on the roster they could have but they chose to leave as they enter their 'final' year. 

 

[Knight]

I don’t think Lavin recruited any members of last year’s team.  Was he on Mullin’s staff?

 

[mjmaherjr]

I think it was a perfect storm of factors.  Some kids like GWill, Moore and Earlington were unhappy with their roles for some reason.  The only head-scratcher is GWill because he played as much as his injury would have allowed and maybe he just figured he should get most of Dunn’s minutes?  I dunno.  Here’s my best guess.

McGriff-  wants to play more and bit much Pt in sight behind Posh and his inability to slide over and play SG

G-will-  No idea.  Lavin recruit. Anderson treated him with kid gloves.  Maybe family influence? I don’t know.

Dunn- thought he was going to move on to try to play overseas or something.  Only reason I can see is that maybe he wants to run the full-time PG spot for somebody.  

Moore-  came in and thought he was the man and he was close.  Got plenty of time but obviously see eye to eye and we know his “social issues”

Cole-  a step slow for this style of play.  I get it.  Wasn’t a fit.

Roberts- not for this level. Likely transfer to appropriate level.

Earlington-  thinks he’s a shooting guard and is not.  Figures maybe somebody else will give him a chance to do so.  Became a good shooter and helped us off the bench with solid minutes.  IMO refused to play ball inside the arc and it seems was unhappy with that.  Also a Lavin recruit.

Caraher- transfer to better level.  

I will add that I wonder how many of the kids like Cole and Moore wanted to put the work in that cma required of them.  Practices are hard and a grind. 

I think coupling all the above with this extra free year and free transfer and lots figured they’d ship themselves around.  Kida have to be re-recruited and many want that for various reasons.  

I think CMA needs to find kida that full understand how we play and want to play that way and understand that we play a deep roster, not just 5 guys. It’s our style and what we do. 

Guys like Posh, wusu and Champ seem to thrive in this style and buy in.  




 

Damn the Mullin coaching  tenure was so bad here Marcus wont even acknowledge him and attributing his recruits to Lavin. You know that must be a rough period here

 

[MainMan]

G-will-  No idea.  Lavin recruit. Anderson treated him with kid gloves.  Maybe family influence? I don’t know.

Earlington-  thinks he’s a shooting guard and is not.  Figures maybe somebody else will give him a chance to do so.  Became a good shooter and helped us off the bench with solid minutes.  IMO refused to play ball inside the arc and it seems was unhappy with that.  Also a Lavin recruit.


 

They really were here a long, long time!
 

 

[Money]

If I remember correctly this years record was 16-11 NOT 16-15! That is a fine improvement over 2020,62%  vs 52% winning percentage.It probably would have been a 4 -5 win increase based on full season!No reason why that can’t be improved upon again next year, even if Julian defects. I’d still bet on CMA and his system! 

I’m not talking about this season.

im saying, there better not be fans who would be happy if we go 16-15 in the future just because it preserves some streak. F the streak if we aren’t making NCAA Tournaments 

Why are you losing your mind about what other fans think about the streak?  
You talk about its all about making NCAA Tournaments but then incessantly complain about a bunch of non-making tournament players moving on, BTW most who contributed very little to this team.

If your goal is to make tournaments then you should be happy that this staff has a chance to bring in better talent than the ones that have been here the last 2 years and did not achieve your said objective.

I for one, believe all of the players that left can be replaced or improved upon - with exception of Champ.  
Let's see who's on this team come October and then we can all lose our collective shat if need be!

Show me better players and I'll STFU. So far it's about the same except the new kids have to learn CMA's system. So this is a case of  subtraction by addition; same level of talent coming in with no knowledge of CMA's system. So far I see a wash, maybe. 



 

No one is telling you to STFU... If it makes you feel better to whine and bitch, have at it. 
Just don't understand the ad nauseum complaints... It's like we lost a bunch of star players who got us into the tournament that can't be replaced.  These are and were players that were not successful in getting us into the tournament.  Why on earth should we be up in arms about them leaving?  

There are 2 guys that I would have liked to stay and that's Williams and Moore.  I believe both have the ability to play at this level, all of the others were mismatched and we saw that pretty much every game.





 

Why you bitching and whining about losing Williams and Moore? See just because some people might have a difference of opinion than you doesn't mean their opinion should be labeled bitching and whining.

Seriously?  That's your take?  Yes, if I came on here and complained incessantly about Williams and Moore leaving, you could say and I would 100% agree with you that I was bitching and whining.  You could say that I'm bitching and whining about people who are bitching and whining and I'm good with that too!!!  

I said I was disappointed that those 2 decided to transfer because I feel they have the skills to play at this level, don't believe the others do, and more than willing to roll the dice that whomever we bring in will preform better than those leaving.  

 

[Amaseinyourface]

Moose post=429873  They were good role players on a team IMO.  If they wanted to stick around and be 6-10 on the roster they could have but they chose to leave as they enter their 'final' year. “

Don’t make me go per 40 minutes of hell on you!

 

[MCNPA]

lol I meant Mullin!  Wish we had a few more Lav players.

 

[fuchsia]

The Joy of Redmen.com​

She who must be obeyed was in mid-lecture (I think about my refusal to wear socks) when I parried her attack with "Do you realize that in the time you are taking to hound me about my feet, St. John's might have signed two new players?"

Barring Champ, Posh, Wusu defections, I think we will be okay.  Other than Greg Will (injury) I think the guys who are leaving had structural weaknesses in their games (size, slow release, physical strength, lateral mobility, court vision) that they sometimes could overcome, but sometimes were exploited by opposing teams.  Loved the effort and worry about maintaining the defensive pressure approach instilled by CMA with so many new players, but all the players will now be those who chose to join the current system.

Thanks Paul for rescuing me from the sock lecture.

 

[MarkRedman]

If the bleeding stops now and there are no more defections, we should all relax and take a deep breath because we will be fine. The remaining core is solid and we have some new faces coming in that have the potential to be as productive as the guys that are leaving. I also anticipate that CMA and staff will fill out the roster with players that are capable of filling our remaining needs.

As others have stated, we should not aspire to merely keep CMA's streak intact. It's time to move forward and expect us to be involved in post season play on a yearly basis. I believe in CMA and trust that, when the dust settles, he will bring us to the promised land.

 

[IDRAFT]

First of all I would like to thank Lawmanfan for starting this new thread. It is not appropriate in a thread about a new kid who committed, or one about potential new players to the program. 

As we know, we started out 1-6 in the BE and also lost a game to BYU early that ended up fairly critical. Incorporating Cole, Moore, Wusu, and Posh - who all got serious minutes, was a big factor in that to me. And if we beat BYU and go 3-3 in those BE games the team is a tournament team that doesn't even have a play in game. So I didn't look at the existing roster as incapable of delivering if it returned, and thought it would do very well with just one decent big man added who could stop other BE centers from achieving career highs every night. That's one add and Caraher had already left so the ship existed.

I am far from the only one in the Metro area who held that opinion. And yes indeed, between Covid and the rule change what happened happened and that is that. I think what keeps me coming back for more on the discussion side is the narrative that all these guys are a bunch of nothings and easily replaced. And that every guy being brought in is instantly better. Think of the equation, we trade guys who weren't earning as many minutes as they wanted at SJU for guys who weren't earning enough minutes somewhere else. Sure there is a Wahab or Kessler in the overall pool but are guys like that coming to SJU? So I do think CMA knows what he is doing, and I expect he plugs things back up. But that still leaves the continuity problem.

But as others point out this is not only happening at SJU right now. Which could help alleviate that. But only if other Big East schools have similar large scale defections. It's early but I haven't seen any mass defections at UCONN, Bouknight is going pro but that was a given. Villanova has one guy transferring out I believe in Swider. I haven't heard of a bunch of Creighton transfers out yet. Gantt left Providence, so that's one there, but Watson isn't just coming back for his Senior season, he is coming back for a fifth year now. Overall what I am saying is it's bad for say Florida, that they are losing so many kids, but not relevant to SJU. We don't play in the SEC. The lack of cohesion is relative. If all of the other BE teams lose 80 percent of their undergrads I totally agree the issue is gone for those of us who believe in it. But if not I think its an issue. It is still April and more kids could still leave other teams in the BE. That will shake out.

Or of course, and this is a POV of some here, the idea that you have your stars and all the other players hardly matter. And yes, if Julian returns the best two players return. And of course if clear upgrades were to occur, stars from other Power Conference programs transferring in, that would be a real reason for optimism. I certainly would agree with that if it were to happen.  

Personal stuff aside -  the disagreement here seems to be over the value of continuity and cohesion and whether or not players can improve within a program. Or if the only way to get better is ship anyone out who isn't a star, shuffle the deck, and attempt to find more talented players from the outside. 

The bad news is I don't see how the two sides agree. The good news is it doesn't matter.

 

 

[guinness77]

This is my last post regarding any of this bickering and complaining. 

1) these are the rules the NCAA put out. Don’t blame Anderson. There are more than 1000 players in the portal already. If you average that out to every Division I program that’s still damn near 4 players per program. 

2) it’s April 2nd for Christ’s sake. April 2nd. The National Championship hasn’t even been decided yet. 

3) you’re all supposedly grown men who have supported this program in one way or the other for decades no? This is the kinda stuff that really pisses you off? There have been many, much worse things that have happened than a few kids transferring (especially when there is a one-time rule allowing them to do so scot-free). 

4) this dude, the coach. You all loved him 2 weeks ago. All of a sudden he’s a turd? That’s it? Every program in the country is losing, on average, 4 players and this is all on him? Hilarious, considering he was the cat’s pajamas 2 weeks ago. 

5) a lot of you pushing some narrative the media is “destroying” us in the press. Uh, that’s mostly you. On this board. Pot meet kettle. 

6) you all would have been lovely when the Revolutionary War or WWII started. We would have surrendered after the first week. Grow a pair. There’s bigger problems then your favorite basketball team losing 8 guys to the dreaded portal. 

7) these kids have just gone through a major pandemic where they have been locked down for a full year. As Ghostzapper so astutely pointed out, a lot of them could think transferring closer to home (or further away from it) could be comforting to them at what is probably the most stressful days of their lives. Wheeler said flat out he wants to be closer to home. 

Need I go on? I could you know. 

Ghostzapper also astutely pointed out he doesn't like any of it. I have no beef with him, and I thought he wrote a well thought out post - but it seems odd to use it as an example. 

As for some of the rest of us - please tell us in the future what we can discuss? Transfers out are off the board. Okay. What about recruiting? What about the games? I'm sorry for all the questions, but I agree there are more important things in the world than college basketball and that's the standard you are setting. So maybe we shut down this board? 

Or maybe everyone could allow others to post their own opinions? This is my second post today about this but I'm finding it all very baffling. Some are into blind loyalty, others analyze things. The analytical of us offer our opinions - good and bad. We are often wrong, no doubt, but we enjoy doing the analysis. It's how we are wired. Some people are sheep. Some are not. It's a big world.

I don't understand why being an analytical person would make anyone less of a man, yet that seems to keep coming into it. 

I will have to analyze that some. Oh no - there I go again!


 

Or, maybe people could use some perspective before they hit submit. Or re-read their post before they hit submit.

Or, cry all you want about what 18-22 year old kids do. I don’t really care. I expressed my opinion too. Crazy innit?

 

[MarkRedman]

John Fanta had the same sentiments that I expressed but said it more eloquently:

"Mike Anderson and his staff have already reeled in quality talent for next season and while St John's will look different, there's no question this staff can build up a solid roster of guys that fit their system. Work to be done but #sujubb is all over the next steps. Stay tuned".

 

[guinness77]

This is my last post regarding any of this bickering and complaining. 

1) these are the rules the NCAA put out. Don’t blame Anderson. There are more than 1000 players in the portal already. If you average that out to every Division I program that’s still damn near 4 players per program. 

2) it’s April 2nd for Christ’s sake. April 2nd. The National Championship hasn’t even been decided yet. 

3) you’re all supposedly grown men who have supported this program in one way or the other for decades no? This is the kinda stuff that really pisses you off? There have been many, much worse things that have happened than a few kids transferring (especially when there is a one-time rule allowing them to do so scot-free). 

4) this dude, the coach. You all loved him 2 weeks ago. All of a sudden he’s a turd? That’s it? Every program in the country is losing, on average, 4 players and this is all on him? Hilarious, considering he was the cat’s pajamas 2 weeks ago. 

5) a lot of you pushing some narrative the media is “destroying” us in the press. Uh, that’s mostly you. On this board. Pot meet kettle. 

6) you all would have been lovely when the Revolutionary War or WWII started. We would have surrendered after the first week. Grow a pair. There’s bigger problems then your favorite basketball team losing 8 guys to the dreaded portal. 

7) these kids have just gone through a major pandemic where they have been locked down for a full year. As Ghostzapper so astutely pointed out, a lot of them could think transferring closer to home (or further away from it) could be comforting to them at what is probably the most stressful days of their lives. Wheeler said flat out he wants to be closer to home. 

Need I go on? I could you know. 

this post shows a severe lack of understanding on the term “nuance” 

yes we all praised Coach Mike A when he gave us a great season and won coach of the year.

yes we also have concerns about coach Mike A when he loses essentially our entire roster. 

guess what... things happen that can change the perception of a coach. And by the way, I’ve been partaking in this discussion basically the whole time; and aside from maybe one or two posts I haven’t seen anyone coming close to calling Mike A a “turd”. It has been pretty level headed discussion about the state of the program after losing basically our entire roster.

Loving Mike A for last season and being upset about this offseason go hand in hand. We liked the roster he built and the season they had. We loved what he was building towards. And now like a house of cards it has all fallen. 

And as for your statements about perspective and us not lasting in a war and Yada Yada Yada. This is a St John’s Basketball message board. Sure there are bigger problems in the world but we come here to discuss our program and the problems/triumphs that are going on there. I don’t understand what’s so hard to understand about that. 

Group think huh? That’s how this works out. Last I checked, this message board exists for people who don’t always have the same opinion or perspective. 

Okay, guess I should apologize for not jumping off a bridge about 2 weeks after the season ended.