Ranking the Big East Coaches
- Thread starter Eddyman11
- Start date
Avon Barksdale
Member
JT3 has lost to 15 seed florida gulf coast, 14 seed ohio u, 11 seed vcu, 10 seed davidson, 11 seed nc state....all of these as a 3 seed or better since 2008.
His teams have underachieved and disappointed more than any team in college basketball in the post season the last 6 years.
His teams have underachieved and disappointed more than any team in college basketball in the post season the last 6 years.
Rank the group where you want. I prefer to just look at the guy in charge at SJU. Lav can recruit, but is not a well respected strategist & X&O guy. Hopefully he learns from disappointing 13-14 season & gets his rotations set early, establishes roles & gets the most productive players on the floor. Additionally, I hope Whitesell in year two, will help Lav better prepare for opponents, establish a more cohesive offense & execute at crunch time. Our abysmal rebounding has to improve as well. Frankly, I think we are an easy team to prepare for. Hopefully that will change. Time to step up Lav. My sense is we will have the right pieces, but our well paid staff has to make this work. Go Johnnies!
basketballjones
Well-known member
The staff is key if Lav is going to get extended. Whitesell has only been here since August. Majerus had great things to say about him when he was an assistant at St. Louis. I hope that he is given a key role in game prep and improving the offense.
Dunlap was playing a major role (particularly in-game coaching) right off the bat. So it's hard to understand why Whitesell's impact would not have registered yet. He was there for the entire pre-season, including the trip to Europe. Then again....maybe his impact has been felt. Perhaps things would have been even worse last season if he had not been on the scene. It's hard to prove a negative. But no question, we need more from the entire coaching staff.
Marillac, typically agree with most of what you post, but don't see it here. Don't disagree that Cooley was left with a pretty good situation at Providence, but (1) he lost 3 rotation pieces early on leaving him with a 6 man rotation all season, and (2) I recall you citing on a few occassions last offseason how we were one of only a few teams with as many RSCI Top 100 kids as we had. We can't downplay now how "loaded" we were on paper entering this season just because we underperformed (players and coaches), and enhance how good Providence was on paper because they (at a minimum) performed. Providence may have had more talent at the very top, but we were much deeper and had a full complement of players. We had a far, far better overall situation than they had this year and should have been able to capitalize upon it, especially in a "win and in" game on our home court in the latter stages of the season.
That aside, the easiest way for me to compare coaches is watching them go head to head. The two coaches that really ran circles around Lavin this year were Mack and Cooley. In game strategy is only one facet of being a coach but this is an area where these two really showed themselves superior. In light of his circumstances this year, the recruiting classes he's bringing in, and his ability as an in-game coach it's tough to short-change Cooley right now. He's getting results. That's all that matters.
Personally, I thought Mack had Lavin in his hip pocket, but not Cooley. I feel we would've won the first game versus Providence had Lavin used either Jordan or Branch in OT, and we pretty much handled them in Providence. They handled us, for the most part, in the Big East Tournament outside the last 5 or 6 minutes. Fortune got hot from outside and they beat us up on the boards. Ballgame. Kudos to the Friars, as they did their job to win the game. Nothing particularly stood out to me, per Cooley.
Cooley was catching some flak for his in-game coaching. Frankly, I can't say he's a poor, good, or great coach. IMO, he's average from what I've witnessed. He got results this season. Lavin also smacked Cooley around one season during head-to-head recruiting battles (ie, Sampson, Sanchez, and Obekpa). Let's see Cooley do it over the long haul before hailing him.
How did Cooley run circles around Lavin? With double OT win at our place and loss at home? Or the BET, where some of our players essentially quit on their teammates?
Cooley's advantage was that he got his guys to play hard for him and Lavin couldn't (at times). I really put our late season failures on the kids. Two years in a tow, we had someone sabotage our season. That should not be allowed to happen again.
Cooley's advantage was that he got his guys to play hard for him and Lavin couldn't (at times). I really put our late season failures on the kids. Two years in a tow, we had someone sabotage our season. That should not be allowed to happen again.
A veteran-laden team, who also had talent, that brought it. Kudos to them! That's how you're suppose to play. His best player also had the ball in his hands for the most part. A player that can not only shoot, but take it to the rack. Add that in with what you and I mentioned about them also playing hard, then you can garner some success.
In no way, I feel he ran circles around Lavin.
Incidentally, Cotton was not recruited by one D1 school. Not one. Forget about being ranked in the Top 100 -he had to practically beg to get a scholarship at Providence. Cooley's first year was Cotton's second year and when he really started to get major minutes and turn into a force. Yes, he obviously had massive talent, but you have to give Cooley tremendous credit for developing him. I don't know of many coaches who have taken non-recruited talent to that level.
I don't think Cooley is second coming of John Wooden when it comes to X&Os. That said, I just think he did better overall coaching job last season than Steve Lavin. All in all, let's see what Cooley can do this year, after losing two critical pieces in Batts & Cotton. At the same time, provided we get Thomas, I would hope Lav can achieve better results than last year with this veteran team. Hopefully this is viewed as constructive discussion, not Lavin bashing.
basketballjones
Well-known member
I agree. Providence did not have, except for Cotton, the same level of talent that St. John's had on the court. People on this board were saying Harris wouldn't even make St. John's rotation. Their big guys were willingness to outwork our guys. Hopefully Thomas, if he signs on, brings the rebounding effort those guys brought at Providence.
Exactly.
Those who constantly toe the line but then jump in for the rescue when Lavin's name may be sullied.
Since when is a head coach above criticism? It would be a first in sports.
Seems the fanbase has cheered more for talks of hopes and promises than results over the past 3 years.
I too think Cooley is a better coach than SL, but it is admittedly different shades of gray. One isn't great and the other horrendous.
And, what needs to be pointed out is that it's freaking impossible to really compare coaches. How do you separate different talent on different teams, with different built in recruiting advantages etc etc. Is Cooley good because Cotton hits his shots or does Cotton hit his shots because he's put in a good position? It's almost impossible to tell.
so if you want to have this argument, there are a few areas I usually look to
- the first 3 possesions of each half. you'll know which team came out motivated (a factor a coach can control to a large degree) and how well they are prepared
- possessions coming out of timeouts
- inbounds plays
- and called, set-plays at the end of games.
These are scenarios that are drilled ad nauseum. Coaches have the most influence over what is called and how it's executed in these situations.
If the play is pulled off, and player X just happens to hit the iron.. well then that shouldn't really be on the coach.
But the problem I have with Lavin is that repeatedly in these situations we don't even get a good shot off! Or inbound the ball! That's on a coach in a lot of these controlled situations.
Ask yourself how often do we come out of the gate slow? And how often late in games do we come out of a timeout in a close game and can't get a decent shot off?
It's hard to compare coaches, but in the situations that are most controlled, Lavin's teams don't perform well.
And, what needs to be pointed out is that it's freaking impossible to really compare coaches. How do you separate different talent on different teams, with different built in recruiting advantages etc etc. Is Cooley good because Cotton hits his shots or does Cotton hit his shots because he's put in a good position? It's almost impossible to tell.
so if you want to have this argument, there are a few areas I usually look to
- the first 3 possesions of each half. you'll know which team came out motivated (a factor a coach can control to a large degree) and how well they are prepared
- possessions coming out of timeouts
- inbounds plays
- and called, set-plays at the end of games.
These are scenarios that are drilled ad nauseum. Coaches have the most influence over what is called and how it's executed in these situations.
If the play is pulled off, and player X just happens to hit the iron.. well then that shouldn't really be on the coach.
But the problem I have with Lavin is that repeatedly in these situations we don't even get a good shot off! Or inbound the ball! That's on a coach in a lot of these controlled situations.
Ask yourself how often do we come out of the gate slow? And how often late in games do we come out of a timeout in a close game and can't get a decent shot off?
It's hard to compare coaches, but in the situations that are most controlled, Lavin's teams don't perform well.