(POST GAME) Georgetown (MSG), Sun. Feb. 2, 1p, CBS / 970 AM WNYM

Well that didn't take long. A team not expected to win much loses often as expected, and some of the board has already turned on the coach. Being good enough to compete doesn't mean a team is good enough to win. Talent and execution is what wins out in the last few minutes of a close game. And confidence. Outside of Dunn, I don't see anyone that really wants the ball in crunch time. Give coach a chance with a Big East roster before judging him. Is that so hard?
 
Never fear, after another great season for the Johnnies, we have Mets baseball up next! New York is where sports go to die unless you are the Yankees or Giants fairly recently. Also excited to see the Jets select defense for the 62nd straight year in the 1st round so we can have a solid not great defense and one of the worst offenses yet again. Why couldn't I be alive in the mid 80's or late 60's?
 
[quote="Ray Morgan" post=375531]Well that didn't take long. A team not expected to win much loses often as expected, and some of the board has already turned on the coach. Being good enough to compete doesn't mean a team is good enough to win. Talent and execution is what wins out in the last few minutes of a close game. And confidence. Outside of Dunn, I don't see anyone that really wants the ball in crunch time. Give coach a chance with a Big East roster before judging him. Is that so hard?[/quote]

I agree it's way premature/sort of ridiculous to jump ship at this juncture, gotta give them a chance. That said, I do think it is fair game to question specific in game strategy decisions. I'm open minded - is there any rational explanation as to why Roberts and Sears (I'll ignore Steere) played a combined 11 minutes when Georgetown's strategy was so obviously to get the ball to Yurtzeven for either a shot down low or a swing around for a wide open 3 when we had to double? Champenny was no match for him and I even saw Heron on him at some point. Just baffling IMO but again open to rational explanation.
 
CMA gets a pass this season . But, there are warning signs ahead . Arkansas criticism has some validity . We need much better talent and lots of it. Recruiting smallish guards in the BE is problematic . Doesn’t appear that 30 minutes of Hell works in the BE. When the next 10 minutes are a disaster . Opposing BE Coaches have already figured that out . Half Court offense isn’t a step up from Mullins . May be worse . Not having Figgy or Heron touch the ball in the last 10 seconds was inexcusable . And , for all its hype , the attacking and pressing defense doesn’t do much for a lackluster 1/2 Court Defense . We give up the 3 as easily as in past years . Time will tell if CMA can get us out of our 20 year plummet into BE depths . Lots of teams get Big Kids from Europe or Africa who can play . We rarely do ....
 
Now that football is over, let’s borrow one thing they do. When the season is over they do self scouting.
CMA is a motivator, has full respect of the team, has them playing with unsurpassed energy.
He has 30 years experience... or does he have the same experience fo 30 years?
The offense lacks imagination. He has assistants who have experience in other systems. Could he not lean on them?
 
[quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=375537]CMA gets a pass this season . But, there are warning signs ahead . Arkansas criticism has some validity . We need much better talent and lots of it. Recruiting smallish guards in the BE is problematic . Doesn’t appear that 30 minutes of Hell works in the BE. When the next 10 minutes are a disaster . Opposing BE Coaches have already figured that out . Half Court offense isn’t a step up from Mullins . May be worse . Not having Figgy or Heron touch the ball in the last 10 seconds was inexcusable . And , for all its hype , the attacking and pressing defense doesn’t do much for a lackluster 1/2 Court Defense . We give up the 3 as easily as in past years . Time will tell if CMA can get us out of our 20 year plummet into BE depths . Lots of teams get Big Kids from Europe or Africa who can play . We rarely do ....[/quote]

All valid concerns (I've even said that I think the ceiling under CMA is more or less what Ed Cooley's done at Providence, to this point), but I still don't think we could have done better.

Unfortunately, we don't have a "perfect fit" realistic person, who could coach our team. The closest thing to that would be Mark Jackson, IMO, but he has shown no interest in coaching college. Probably doesn't want to recruit. Can't blame him, if that's the case.
 
Have been quick to chalk much of this year up to needing to wait until Anderson has a more balanced roster.

To apply that yesterday would be an excuse and not a rationale, as there was more than enough to beat an abysmal Georgetown team, at home, without McClung, by 25.

And Anderson couldn't get out of his own way for 40 minutes.

Was one of those all too familiar feelings sitting in that building in the 2nd half with everybody kind of looking at each other wondering what it is exactly that we're doing, because objectively the answer is it looked like we were actively trying to lose the game.

The mass substitutions and press worked brilliantly at points this season including recently. But both were not only wildly ineffective but actually a benefit for Villanova, and adjustments weren't made.

The same was true yesterday with sub patterns that really interrupted momentum and gameflow, and only 8 steals defensively. No adjustments again.

That's concerning. Is there a lack of identification / ability to adjust? Is there an identification but unwillingness to adjust anyway because there's a system and that's how we are going to play win or lose? There isn't a good answer to either question.

Even in a season that is becoming lost, you win games like yesterday. Players need it, fans need it, program needs it.

10 games into conference slate. Won 2 easily (DePaul x2), got our doors blown off in 2 (@GTown, Nova), and lost two road games in which we played reasonably well but got beat by better teams on their floor (@X, @Marq). All of these results are to be expected with the parity in the conference, even if the exact games/opponents aren't expected.

The other 4 games (Butler, @Prov, SH, GTown), 3 of which were at home, were one possession games in the last 30 seconds. The 0-4 result there is not expected with the parity in the conference. That's been the difference, as you go 2-2 there and the outlook on the back half of BE play and frankly the season is very different.

Optimistic view is that changes with more talent. Opposite view is coaching gets you there in those games. It's probably a little bit of both, definitely remain positive on success I think this staff is capable of, but yesterday was first real red flag for me in terms of what the ceiling is.
 
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Fortunately I missed the entire game. I was able to check the box score a few times. I can’t completely get my hands around what happened but it looked like we played the way we do most of the time. This game we played a pretty good first half into the early part of the second and then fell apart? I saw that we had 0 turnovers in the first half and 12 in the second half. This includes 4 by Dunn which along with his usual low shooting percentage, but overall his stats were in line with how he has played most of the season. The only player who’s stats stood out a little was Champagnie who statistically played one of his best offensive games of the season and Rutherford who got six assists in 13 minutes. I am guessing we made some shots in that stretch. I understand that Georgetown is very thin but the guys who played did well. We had the same little depth last season and it hurt us but we had better players in a weaker conference. I am not thrilled with all the open threes that we give up which has been an ongoing problem all season but am not ready to throw MA under the bus. He is a pretty good coach heading towards the twilight of his career. Hopefully he can recruit the players he feels he needs to win and make some adjustments as he becomes more familiar with the other coaches in the conference. My expectations for this season were low and I was not fooled that much by the early season upsets. I am growing tired of losing so much in conference and am not sure how much more that I can take with ticket prices going up so much and very few people that are interested in going to games. That said all I would like to see is a win in a tournament game at this point.
 
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Again, I think to make any conclusions based on this year, this roster etc. is wrong. Your red flag warning may bear itself out, I am hoping not and I think you have to let the roster morph and then it is on the coach. The limitations (known and unknown) impair the ability to get a true sense of what the staff is capable of, IMHO. On the contrary, his career seems to indicate a pretty high ceiling and consistent success. And, if he turns out to be (only) as good as the Providence coach, I will take that. It would mean he stabilized the program and returned it to consistent winning. We can worry about going higher later....
 
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[quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=375537]CMA gets a pass this season . But, there are warning signs ahead . Arkansas criticism has some validity . We need much better talent and lots of it. Recruiting smallish guards in the BE is problematic . Doesn’t appear that 30 minutes of Hell works in the BE. When the next 10 minutes are a disaster . Opposing BE Coaches have already figured that out . Half Court offense isn’t a step up from Mullins . May be worse . Not having Figgy or Heron touch the ball in the last 10 seconds was inexcusable . And , for all its hype , the attacking and pressing defense doesn’t do much for a lackluster 1/2 Court Defense . We give up the 3 as easily as in past years . Time will tell if CMA can get us out of our 20 year plummet into BE depths . Lots of teams get Big Kids from Europe or Africa who can play . We rarely do ....[/quote]

Not sure how you can point out in one sentence that we need better talent and then in the next that this system doesn't work in the BE. Just saying that perhaps a coach should get to fill the roster out with his players before we pass judgement on his system.
 
So tired of having a team that is always lacking in height, let alone shooters.
Starting to get concerned about CMA. I hope my fears don't pan out.
 
[quote="Knight" post=375551]So tired of having a team that is always lacking in height, let alone shooters.
Starting to get concerned about CMA. I hope my fears don't pan out.[/quote]

What are your concerns with CMA?
 
[quote="Knight" post=375551]So tired of having a team that is always lacking in height, let alone shooters.
Starting to get concerned about CMA. I hope my fears don't pan out.[/quote]

No one can tell me we can't get 6'10+ 230+ guys with some skill on this team. Probably several. D2, D3, mid major transfers, overseas, etc. They're out there. I think we just don't go after them. I don't care if they can't run a 4.4 40 yard dash. We need real centers. This team may never have a Matt Stainbrook, Spellman, or Yurtsvten (however you spell it) while I'm alive. We never have size and we never have lots of shooters. Now CMA seems to love undersized guards that get swatted 50% of the time they get to the hoop. This is what you get when you have 2-3 star guys mostly and none have size and none can shoot. Literally every other Big East team has both. It's to the point where teams probably love playing us. I think our facilities kill us and the commuter school vibe kills us. I have no idea how Lavin got 4-5 star top 20-40 kids here.
 
I believe the lack of use of Roberts and Sears was designed to try and assist the woeful half court offense. Both of those guys are close to total zeros on offense. Instead CMA went with a lot of five out trying to get Yurtseven away from the basket and allow driving lanes for Dunn and Williams. And I think in the first half it worked overall even though it was annoying watching Yurtseven grab all those rebounds. I think he only had three points at the half and the only guy that made us pay for the kickouts for the most part was Blair. In the entire game Georgetown shot .308 from three. Our half court defense was not the issue for me.

But although, yes, Roberts needed to be in for the final Georgetown possession, we will never know how the game would have went if Roberts and Sears played more. I think it's possible we hold Georgetown to 62 points but still lose. Or maybe we win 66-62. And if I was coach I admit I would have played a more traditional front court. But I can't put the loss on that because if you play Roberts more where would the points that Champagnie and Earlington scored come from? There is a reason I am not the coach.

I think we lost this game and the Seton Hall game because we have atrocious ball handlers. In both games we gave away possessions and then layups when pressed. Rutherford is kind of the best we have and that's more an indictment of the rest of them. So my biggest complaint is that with a lead and with all the struggles advancing the ball why he didn't play more in the second half. He gives you defense as much as the next guy too.

But it all feels like quibbles to me and I'm not calling anyone out, I get it this is a message board and a place for fans to vent. But the team is not very talented. The idea is to have a roster that doesn't have to choose between guys who can score (a little) or defend. Certainly the idea is not to have anyone on the roster who can really handle pressure defense or run a half court offense.

I have looked at this season with eyes wide open all along. Almost all coaches have systems so evaluate the new one just to get a feel for it. I've actually been grateful that so far every home game except for one has been a win or come down to the wire. In year one it is usually worse than this, with Lavin's an obvious outlier.

I'm not going to predict future success or failure. I have seen enough of Anderson and also of his record to think he can succeed at SJU if he can recruit well enough and is given enough time. I don't have enough evidence on those two crucial points to know where this goes.
 
[quote="NCJohnnie" post=375494]I look forward to us bringing back Champagnie, Dunn, Williams & Roberts. Also think there is a place for Earlington & Caraher albeit as back of the rotation guys. We need to sign a really good shooter & legitimate big to go with the other 4 recruits who hopefully weren't too discouraged watching us today. I have faith in our staff on the recruiting side.[/quote]

Caraher is a big disappointment. If he's on this team next year it's a big step down for us
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=375555][quote="Knight" post=375551]So tired of having a team that is always lacking in height, let alone shooters.
Starting to get concerned about CMA. I hope my fears don't pan out.[/quote]

No one can tell me we can't get 6'10+ 230+ guys with some skill on this team. Probably several. D2, D3, mid major transfers, overseas, etc. They're out there. I think we just don't go after them. I don't care if they can't run a 4.4 40 yard dash. We need real centers. This team may never have a Matt Stainbrook, Spellman, or Yurtsvten (however you spell it) while I'm alive. We never have size and we never have lots of shooters. Now CMA seems to love undersized guards that get swatted 50% of the time they get to the hoop. This is what you get when you have 2-3 star guys mostly and none have size and none can shoot. Literally every other Big East team has both. It's to the point where teams probably love playing us. I think our facilities kill us and the commuter school vibe kills us. I have no idea how Lavin got 4-5 star top 20-40 kids here.[/quote]

You keep pining for low level guys with size as an answer. Yes they are out there, and they end up at the Marists of the world for a reason. They are no good. Roberts ate up a full slate of those guys in the OOC, so why would they now fare better than him?

Also I am projecting some but I would be surprised if CMA is scouring the nation for 230-240 pound big men. I've seen no evidence of it in the recruiting information I have seen and nothing in the system being run to think it's a priority. Don't shoot the messenger!

You certainly can win with big men like that but you also can win without them. Texas Tech went to the championship game last year with a center that wasn't anything close to that weight. Fit their system though.
 
As for roster turnover I feel like I might be on a bit of an island here but I am not jazzed up about it. If it is to bring in another grad transfer or two to make next season slightly more palatable sure, I guess. And if all of a sudden a real impact 2020 were to have interest of course that would be great. But otherwise I don't see why adding new 3 star guys to replace the current 3 star guys does much in the short term and it could impede the longer term. I rather recruiting efforts by the staff (and scholarships) be laser focused on the 2021/22 classes.
 
[quote="Tonyinfairfield " post=375447][quote="dee" post=375445][quote="RedStormNC" post=375435]Attendance at MSG...7,436 = Embarassing

1st grade stickers as logos on court = Embarassing

17 pt lead loss = Embarassing

Skipping a Super Bowl party to avoid hearing about the embarassing loss .[/quote]

They cant shoot the ball. They just arent good. They cant play press for 40 minutes
My question is this- will st John's EVER be good again?[/quote]

That is the $64,000.00 question. Or are we destined to be good occasionally and make the Tournament every five or six years.[/quote]

There's no question, we'll never be good again as long as we're in the Big East. Shifting to a lesser conference like the MAAC will give us an annual gaudy record...and put us in the tournament virtually EVERY year.
 
[quote="newsman13" post=375570][quote="Tonyinfairfield " post=375447][quote="dee" post=375445][quote="RedStormNC" post=375435]Attendance at MSG...7,436 = Embarassing

1st grade stickers as logos on court = Embarassing

17 pt lead loss = Embarassing

Skipping a Super Bowl party to avoid hearing about the embarassing loss .[/quote]

They cant shoot the ball. They just arent good. They cant play press for 40 minutes
My question is this- will st John's EVER be good again?[/quote]

That is the $64,000.00 question. Or are we destined to be good occasionally and make the Tournament every five or six years.[/quote]

There's no question, we'll never be good again as long as we're in the Big East. Shifting to a lesser conference like the MAAC will give us an annual gaudy record...and put us in the tournament virtually EVERY year.[/quote]

If you believe that then you should also believe what would occur after that particular move. I'm rather confident it wouldn't be pretty and would be worse than what you currently perceive. Revenue, fans and recruiting would dry up and I bet you'd be the first one to stop watching once or if things went downhill.
 
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