(POST-GAME) Butler, Tues. Feb. 12, 8:30pm, CBS SN / 970AM

[quote="41ndone" post=322605]While I am at it, we could use a guy that could just knock down 3's, a sharpshooter, a specialist but we are severely missing this also. It is not Trinmble as all of his 3's are set shots. We need a catch a shoot marksman, even if they are not great on D as you can use them in spot duty to take teams out of zone.[/quote]

Sounds like Marcus Howard.[/quote]

Sounds like Mikey Dixon. Is there a message that both (or does Mussini make three) small guards slotted along side Shamorie left the team?
 
[quote="Redmen88" post=322592][quote="bamafan" post=322576][quote="Knight" post=322520]This team gets killed on the boards because we have no one in position to rebound. I hate the sight of shoot-and-retreat with 4-5 opponents in position to rebound, while our guys backpedal on defense. Crash the boards, damn it.[/quote]
The strange thing is we do it every game even against opponents where they even acknowledge that they do not want to get in a running game with St. J's, so if they want a slower paced half court game would it kill us to send 1-2 guys to the offensive boards? Last night was an example although I must say outside of Figgy and maybe Simon we don't really have guys that appear could do a good job offensive rebounding. You would think Clark but that would necessitate him actually going after the ball off the board (like Clark for other things but he is just not an aggressive rebounder).[/quote]

We really need 1 or 2 junk yard dogs that love rebounding and getting after loose balls. Usually you can find a couple of these players who are happy even if they don't get the ball much. I gess this is a luxury when you have 3-4 players sitting our due to transferring. Every team has a player that loves the dirty work except us.

While I am at it, we could use a guy that could just knock down 3's, a sharpshooter, a specialist but we are severely missing this also. It is not Trinmble as all of his 3's are set shots. We need a catch a shoot marksman, even if they are not great on D as you can use them in spot duty to take teams out of zone.[/quote]

I’m all for junkyard dogs. I think Justin can be one with a philosophical shift, but he has been stubborn as can be about accepting that role. He’s just an awful perimeter player and everyone bit him knows it.

As for shooters, that is the least of our concerns. Heron shoots 43%, Clark is almost 40% for his career, Ponds is over 37%, and Figgy is 38%.
 
[quote="JackofVirginia" post=322604][quote="Room112" post=322553]Really thought this should have been an easy win. Our shot selection and decision making in the 2nd half were horrendous. We did it to ourselves. Ponds did not seem interested either. I could not explain why he didn't have the ball in his hand every possession at the end of regulation and overtime.[/quote]



Actually I wanted to see the ball in Heron's hands. Simon handling the ball scares the hell out of me.
Still has trouble finishing.[/quote]

Which is why I held my breath on Figgy’s great steal late in the game, where he streaked down the court and tossed it...to Simon...who finished.
His layup rattled ‘home’, thank the Hoop Gods!
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=322551]It was significant that Heron shot 10 free throws v average of four last night. It seems he seldom got calls on bumps in lane in previous games & would be nice to see him get benefit of doubt more often. Of course each game differs, but his FTs really impacted game.[/quote]

It would be nice if Ponds could get a call or two. I've never seen a bonafide star at the college or pro level get bumped while in a shooting motion get less calls than he does. It's criminal.
 
Although I was very stressed out watching the final few minutes of this game, end of the day it is not simply a game we needed to win, but also a great win.

Butler currently is a #12 seed (second to last team in) on Bracket Matrix. We beat a team that most analysts have in the Tournament. That to me is a great win no matter how ugly.

Heron coming back was obviously huge, no way we would've won without him.
 
[quote="Marillac" post=322619][quote="JackofVirginia" post=322612][quote="ron " post=322566][quote="we are sju" post=322565][quote="mjmaherjr" post=322555][quote="Paultzman" post=322551]It was significant that Heron shot 10 free throws v average of four last night. It seems he seldom got calls on bumps in lane in previous games & would be nice to see him get benefit of doubt more often. Of course each game differs, but his FTs really impacted game.[/quote] was talking about that with a friend the other day. It always seems like he should be getting another 4 ft's a game at minimum[/quote]

Refs hate us[/quote]

Refs gave us a break when Ponds punked them by leaving the ball at mid-court. They could have easily given him a technical which could have cost us the game.[/quote]


Agree. What the hell was he thinking. In fact talking about technicals Heron I'm sure won't be banging any backboard in the future.[/quote]

Ponds putting the ball down was one of the more egregious things I’ve seen a player do in several years. He did it twice earlier in the game as well, albeit not as far away. What is the point? He’s a projected late second round pick...he doesn’t have room for questions about his attitude.[/quote]

I agree. Slick is in need of an attitude adjustment asap. Not the Shamorie that I've seen in the past.
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=322635][quote="Marillac" post=322619][quote="JackofVirginia" post=322612][quote="ron " post=322566][quote="we are sju" post=322565][quote="mjmaherjr" post=322555][quote="Paultzman" post=322551]It was significant that Heron shot 10 free throws v average of four last night. It seems he seldom got calls on bumps in lane in previous games & would be nice to see him get benefit of doubt more often. Of course each game differs, but his FTs really impacted game.[/quote] was talking about that with a friend the other day. It always seems like he should be getting another 4 ft's a game at minimum[/quote]

Refs hate us[/quote]

Refs gave us a break when Ponds punked them by leaving the ball at mid-court. They could have easily given him a technical which could have cost us the game.[/quote]


Agree. What the hell was he thinking. In fact talking about technicals Heron I'm sure won't be banging any backboard in the future.[/quote]

Ponds putting the ball down was one of the more egregious things I’ve seen a player do in several years. He did it twice earlier in the game as well, albeit not as far away. What is the point? He’s a projected late second round pick...he doesn’t have room for questions about his attitude.[/quote]

I agree. Slick is in need of an attitude adjustment asap. Not the Shamorie that I've seen in the past.[/quote]

Not condoning but he gets hit a lot on drives that mostly go uncalled. I am sure frustrated
 
[quote="fordham96" post=322598][quote="newsman13" post=322596]Mullin hasn't lost his NBA mentality where players at the end of the bench are shuffled off the team if they don't produce right away. We've had way too many players transfer...players who could have helped us. He has to figure out how to keep players sticking around.[/quote]

Listen I get the idea of losing kids to transfer, but how does that explain the fact that they have 13 scholarship players currently on the roster? In other words they are using every available scholarship now. People are acting like they only have 7-8 scholarship players available because of outgoing transfers. No they have all of them used up.

If you are going to use 2-3 on sit transfers every year then you better not whiff on your freshmen recruits. You need to recruit better on the prep level. And that along with too much of a reliance on transfers is causing this lack of depth. And if the roster shakes out like I think it might after this year it will really rear it's ugly head starting next year. That is why it is imperative that things change soon.[/quote]

You hit the nail on the head. Prep recruiting has been abysmal. Next year things can get ugly if the roster doesn't blend well and there is no immediate bench support to offset it. Starting to look very much like Lavin's final season but Lavi had hof coach Keady guiding him along with associate head coach Whitesell and Tony Chiles!!!
This staff has the Greg St. Jean show. If that continues just start marking the calendar for 3 one way tickets to California.
 
One thing to add, and this might have been discussed ad nauseum already but I'm not reading all 30 odd pages here or on the game thread, but MZ got his TV time and his friend looks like he can still fit into the M. MZ Not so much, I should send you my hand me downs I grow out of (yup, I'm a big boy and always getting bigger, LOL). But you both looked ridiculous, assuming that was what you were going for. Looks like you were having fun.
 
[quote="Adam" post=322633]Although I was very stressed out watching the final few minutes of this game, end of the day it is not simply a game we needed to win, but also a great win.

Butler currently is a #12 seed (second to last team in) on Bracket Matrix. We beat a team that most analysts have in the Tournament. That to me is a great win no matter how ugly.

Heron coming back was obviously huge, no way we would've won without him.[/quote]

Good points, and I honestly felt our season was on the line here. While a loss wouldn't have eliminated us, the journey to get in would have been difficult.
 
[quote="Marillac" post=322623][quote="Redmen88" post=322592][quote="bamafan" post=322576][quote="Knight" post=322520]This team gets killed on the boards because we have no one in position to rebound. I hate the sight of shoot-and-retreat with 4-5 opponents in position to rebound, while our guys backpedal on defense. Crash the boards, damn it.[/quote]
The strange thing is we do it every game even against opponents where they even acknowledge that they do not want to get in a running game with St. J's, so if they want a slower paced half court game would it kill us to send 1-2 guys to the offensive boards? Last night was an example although I must say outside of Figgy and maybe Simon we don't really have guys that appear could do a good job offensive rebounding. You would think Clark but that would necessitate him actually going after the ball off the board (like Clark for other things but he is just not an aggressive rebounder).[/quote]

We really need 1 or 2 junk yard dogs that love rebounding and getting after loose balls. Usually you can find a couple of these players who are happy even if they don't get the ball much. I gess this is a luxury when you have 3-4 players sitting our due to transferring. Every team has a player that loves the dirty work except us.

While I am at it, we could use a guy that could just knock down 3's, a sharpshooter, a specialist but we are severely missing this also. It is not Trinmble as all of his 3's are set shots. We need a catch a shoot marksman, even if they are not great on D as you can use them in spot duty to take teams out of zone.[/quote]

I’m all for junkyard dogs. I think Justin can be one with a philosophical shift, but he has been stubborn as can be about accepting that role. He’s just an awful perimeter player and everyone bit him knows it.

As for shooters, that is the least of our concerns. Heron shoots 43%, Clark is almost 40% for his career, Ponds is over 37%, and Figgy is 38%.[/quote]

I agree with Simon as a JYD. He certainly could fit that bill and does to some extent but he is not the get out of my way and I am grabbing that rebound kind of guy. I have heard him described as a swiss army knife and I think that fits him better than JYD.

As for your other comment ariund our 3 point shooters, they shoot it okay but they are not take 2 dribbles and pull up jumper kind of guys or catch off the pass and quickly rise up and shoot a jumper. Thet are plodding set my feet and shoot a 3 type guys. We need a player that can create his own space and launch a jumper as the shot clock is expiring. With CM & MR as coaches I cannot figure out how we do not have a lethal jup shooter oin our team.
 
[quote="austour" post=322639]One thing to add, and this might have been discussed ad nauseum already but I'm not reading all 30 odd pages here or on the game thread, but MZ got his TV time and his friend looks like he can still fit into the M. MZ Not so much, I should send you my hand me downs I grow out of (yup, I'm a big boy and always getting bigger, LOL). But you both looked ridiculous, assuming that was what you were going for. Looks like you were having fun.[/quote]

Damn, you're good. He had a medium and myself a large haha. In terms of the look we were going for, we were trying for business casual.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=322665][quote="austour" post=322639]One thing to add, and this might have been discussed ad nauseum already but I'm not reading all 30 odd pages here or on the game thread, but MZ got his TV time and his friend looks like he can still fit into the M. MZ Not so much, I should send you my hand me downs I grow out of (yup, I'm a big boy and always getting bigger, LOL). But you both looked ridiculous, assuming that was what you were going for. Looks like you were having fun.[/quote]

Damn, you're good. He had a medium and myself a large haha. In terms of the look we were going for, we were trying for business casual.[/quote] I'll be really impressed if you guys pull off a Ric Flair next game there
 
Some had posted earlier the need for a dead eye 3 point shooter . One who can stop , shoot and make the long bomb . I had thought Dixon was that type player and before him , one of my favorites , Mussini . Last night , Jorgensen for Butler was/is that type of player , who I think we lack . Most BE Teams have several guys who can bury it regularly . Especially when open . We have 4 guys who can hit the 3 but, not one who is truly a 3 point Specialist . Trimble has been on / off this year but, isn’t really a stop / shoot guy . He needs to already be in his spot and open to shoot . And , he hasn’t played enough to wire up his 3 . It’s something Mullin needs to think about in recruiting . Most of our guys are modified Slashers , who can shoot but , the 3 isn’t their Specialty . And , lately , Ponds hasn’t been bombing away as much as he should . He needs more shots and fewer Assists .
 
[quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=322686]Some had posted earlier the need for a dead eye 3 point shooter . One who can stop , shoot and make the long bomb . I had thought Dixon was that type player and before him , one of my favorites , Mussini . Last night , Jorgensen for Butler was/is that type of player , who I think we lack . Most BE Teams have several guys who can bury it regularly . Especially when open . We have 4 guys who can hit the 3 but, not one who is truly a 3 point Specialist . Trimble has been on / off this year but, isn’t really a stop / shoot guy . He needs to already be in his spot and open to shoot . And , he hasn’t played enough to wire up his 3 . It’s something Mullin needs to think about in recruiting . Most of our guys are modified Slashers , who can shoot but , the 3 isn’t their Specialty . And , lately , Ponds hasn’t been bombing away as much as he should . He needs more shots and fewer Assists .[/quote]

I think this is an excellent point. Would really help in our court spacing especially when Simon is neutralized by bigger defenders. Which much rather have this type of player on the court then Simon in certain matchups.This would also allow for better driving lanes. This type of player could be very valuable in certain game and probably a defensive liability in others. But would certainly help the roster.
 
[quote="mjmaherjr" post=322674][quote="Mike Zaun" post=322665][quote="austour" post=322639]One thing to add, and this might have been discussed ad nauseum already but I'm not reading all 30 odd pages here or on the game thread, but MZ got his TV time and his friend looks like he can still fit into the M. MZ Not so much, I should send you my hand me downs I grow out of (yup, I'm a big boy and always getting bigger, LOL). But you both looked ridiculous, assuming that was what you were going for. Looks like you were having fun.[/quote]

Damn, you're good. He had a medium and myself a large haha. In terms of the look we were going for, we were trying for business casual.[/quote] I'll be really impressed if you guys pull off a Ric Flair next game there[/quote]

"Ric is hitting the ref with his $1,200 Gucci loafers! Bah gawd!"
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=322551]It was significant that Heron shot 10 free throws v average of four last night. It seems he seldom got calls on bumps in lane in previous games & would be nice to see him get benefit of doubt more often. Of course each game differs, but his FTs really impacted game.[/quote]

He probably would be averaging 4 more points per game if half of the bumps on him per game were called.
 
[quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=322686]Some had posted earlier the need for a dead eye 3 point shooter . One who can stop , shoot and make the long bomb . I had thought Dixon was that type player and before him , one of my favorites , Mussini . Last night , Jorgensen for Butler was/is that type of player , who I think we lack . Most BE Teams have several guys who can bury it regularly . Especially when open . We have 4 guys who can hit the 3 but, not one who is truly a 3 point Specialist . Trimble has been on / off this year but, isn’t really a stop / shoot guy . He needs to already be in his spot and open to shoot . And , he hasn’t played enough to wire up his 3 . It’s something Mullin needs to think about in recruiting . Most of our guys are modified Slashers , who can shoot but , the 3 isn’t their Specialty . And , lately , Ponds hasn’t been bombing away as much as he should . He needs more shots and fewer Assists .[/quote]

Players that can shoot well off the bounce are exceedingly rare. It’s a low % shot. We tend to be impressed by opponents who have a kid do that in one game because we don’t see them missing and their fans going crazy other games. I’m sure there are teams that thought Hatten was the best shooter of all-time after some of his better performances.
 
What really irked me during the playing and aftermath of the Butler game, was this constant broadcast coverage that voiced incredulity that we could play so poorly on Saturday against Providence,...and then be the same team that was tasking Butler. This was being said while Heron was running wild on the court and practically winning the game single handedly. I mean...they can't really be that stupid, right? To his credit, the only person on the game broadcast to point that out as significant, was Lappas. The post game idiots said nothing at all. It was the same story with Providence when Ponds didn't play. Not a soul is pointing out that 4 of our losses were somewhat tough breaks. Two games against league bottom dwellers with major players unavailable...and the Seton Hall and Villanova debacles.
 
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