(POST-GAME) @Butler, Sat. Jan. 19, 4:30pm, FOX / 570AM

[quote="Adam" post=316629]I think 9-9 could get us in, but obviously by no means a lock. That is looking at NET as well as factoring in Q1/Q2 wins and upcoming opportunities. Nearly every game in the BE will be a Q1/Q2 game. I know we're all down on the Butler game, but that was a Q1 opportunity. That's very important when looking at other lesser conferences like the AAC/Pac where half the teams are ranked below 100.

That said, if we go 9-9 we'd probably be playing in Dayton and things could feel a lot like Lavin's final year if we lose the play in. Would people be happy with that result? 10-8 and a BET win needs to be the minimum goal.

If we can't achieve that during a down year in the Big East, we obviously don't deserve to dance.[/quote]

In 19 games we have scored 1565 points. Our bench, minus Dixon, has scored 99 of those points.
What we thought was a serviceable bench has turned out to be a facade. One or two starters have a sub par game we become mid major.
The conference is not down because it has the most balance ever.
I'm not ever sure Wright and Caraher would have changed the scenario much this year.
Look at how we evaluate talent. Matt following kids on Instagram and hopping on a plane. The botched Japan trip is an example. Who have the other coaches been on and following?
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=316634][quote="Adam" post=316629]I think 9-9 could get us in, but obviously by no means a lock. That is looking at NET as well as factoring in Q1/Q2 wins and upcoming opportunities. Nearly every game in the BE will be a Q1/Q2 game. I know we're all down on the Butler game, but that was a Q1 opportunity. That's very important when looking at other lesser conferences like the AAC/Pac where half the teams are ranked below 100.

That said, if we go 9-9 we'd probably be playing in Dayton and things could feel a lot like Lavin's final year if we lose the play in. Would people be happy with that result? 10-8 and a BET win needs to be the minimum goal.

If we can't achieve that during a down year in the Big East, we obviously don't deserve to dance.[/quote]

In 19 games we have scored 1565 points. Our bench, minus Dixon, has scored 99 of those points.
What we thought was a serviceable bench has turned out to be a facade. One or two starters have a sub par game we become mid major.
The conference is not down because it has the most balance ever.
I'm not ever sure Wright and Caraher would have changed the scenario much this year.
Look at how we evaluate talent. Matt following kids on Instagram and hopping on a plane. The botched Japan trip is an example. Who have the other coaches been on and following?[/quote]

Wow, now you're going after Matt. Is this a game strategy?
 
As someone else mentioned ,this isn’t such a down year. The top teams are down, but the bottom teams are up. At this point first place seems to be between Nova and Marquette, but how the rest of the BE will fall is anyone’s guess. A lot of parity in this conference this year. Hopefully Ponds will be 100 percent and we can finish top 4.
 
[quote="Monte" post=316597][quote="Beast of the East" post=316591][quote="Monte" post=316583][quote="Beast of the East" post=316579][quote="gonzalo" post=316577][quote="Beast of the East" post=316572]

Wennington not a prized recruit.

[/quote]

Bill Wennington was a McDonald´s All-American.[/quote]

I believe Shelton Jones was also. But there was no clamor that we had just snagged a superb player. They both were very solid and both played in the NBA (Wennington 14 seasons of mostly towel waving). But they were far from the category of recruit that could have gone anywhere.[/quote]

Agree with most of your earlier post, but to say that Wennington and Jones where not highly sought after recruits is incorrect. Jones was a tremendous high school player and NY State POY if I remember correctly. Niether turned out to be college superstars, but that doesn’t change the fact that both where highly sought after coming out of high school. Both top 25 I would say.[/quote]

Do you really think top 25? I don't remember that at all, and both are really good guys. Wennington spent a lot of Fridays drinking in the Rat when it was allowed and hanging with other students. Shelton Jones who is another good guy, will remind you today (he has) that he played in the NBA and won the NBA dunk contest one year. But neither were hearlded as program changers the way the others I mentioned were[/quote]

How many true “program changers” are there? Besides, we didn’t need to have our program changed back then. We were a top 20 team year in and year out. After those early and mid 80s teams came the Sealy/Werdann/Sproling teams. Then the Felipe/Zendon teams. Then the Artest/Barckley/Glover teams. We had a 20 year run of incredible recruiting success of top 50 kids, many of whom were top 15 kids. We backfilled with transfers(IE Brust, Middleton, etc) and 2-3 star recruits(IE Singleton, Grant, etc).[/quote]

Not debating you. Shelton reminded me of David Russell. We dont go to final four without wennington. But the guys I listed were foundational guys and ya they don't come along often here, maybe one every 4 years or so.

I believe the transfers out will decline as we recruit a certain level of kid. Most of our transfers out saw the writing on the wall as better players came in. Owen's wanted the ball, others just wanted to see court time.
 
Beast, I respect you as a poster and there's zero reason to try to make things personal. You claim my view is repeated ad naseum, but what about yours? Yours is too. Just pointing that out. Whether pro Mullin or anti Mullin, both sides echo similar points. That's bound to happen.

Anyway, it's just fascinating to me being a SJ fan. As a Jets fan, I've never seen anyone stick up for Todd Bowles after failing. I've never seen anyone seen anyone stick up for Terry Collins when he had some horrid years with us. I've never seen Knicks fans support losing coaches. But with St. John's, some seem to believe it's literally never the coach and always some other factors. If a CEO is leading a company to failure, would you hear people blaming the employees, or the CEO? We have a team full of 4 and 5 star talents. And the NCAA's seem like this mystical place that is nearly impossible to get to. News flash, Seton Hall and PC have passed us by. Under Lavin, we were clearly ahead of them most years if I remember correctly. Not only have they passed us by, but they have been to the tourney plenty. Before the season all I saw was how we had the most talent since our Elite 8 team decades ago. And in a year where no team really dominates except Nova, with our best talent in decades, we are unlikely to make the tourney? Again? Not sure how you can come to the conclusion that it's anything but coaching at this point. You can't get much more talented players than we already have. I seriously don't think Mullin would dominate with Kentucky's roster. I'm holding out hope we go on a run, but we all hope every year and we keep getting the same results. Don't blame me and don't blame the fans. Blame the staff for the failure.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=316645]Beast, I respect you as a poster and there's zero reason to try to make things personal. You claim my view is repeated ad naseum, but what about yours? Yours is too. Just pointing that out. Whether pro Mullin or anti Mullin, both sides echo similar points. That's bound to happen.

Anyway, it's just fascinating to me being a SJ fan. As a Jets fan, I've never seen anyone stick up for Todd Bowles after failing. I've never seen anyone seen anyone stick up for Terry Collins when he had some horrid years with us. I've never seen Knicks fans support losing coaches. But with St. John's, some seem to believe it's literally never the coach and always some other factors. If a CEO is leading a company to failure, would you hear people blaming the employees, or the CEO? We have a team full of 4 and 5 star talents. And the NCAA's seem like this mystical place that is nearly impossible to get to. News flash, Seton Hall and PC have passed us by. Under Lavin, we were clearly ahead of them most years if I remember correctly. Not only have they passed us by, but they have been to the tourney plenty. Before the season all I saw was how we had the most talent since our Elite 8 team decades ago. And in a year where no team really dominates except Nova, with our best talent in decades, we are unlikely to make the tourney? Again? Not sure how you can come to the conclusion that it's anything but coaching at this point. You can't get much more talented players than we already have. I seriously don't think Mullin would dominate with Kentucky's roster. I'm holding out hope we go on a run, but we all hope every year and we keep getting the same results. Don't blame me and don't blame the fans. Blame the staff for the failure.[/quote]

I don't see this as a failure Mike. Here are some of your beauties : just about every poster could coach better than Mullin, and 2) it's a known fact mullin is lazy and not working hard.

I see the improvements in roster and in game coaching. Is it enough? That's a subjective question but we are 15-4, almost at the 2/3 mark of the season, and still solidly in the hunt for a bid. To me that's improvement. To you not enough. Fair?
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=316637][quote="Class of 72" post=316634][quote="Adam" post=316629]I think 9-9 could get us in, but obviously by no means a lock. That is looking at NET as well as factoring in Q1/Q2 wins and upcoming opportunities. Nearly every game in the BE will be a Q1/Q2 game. I know we're all down on the Butler game, but that was a Q1 opportunity. That's very important when looking at other lesser conferences like the AAC/Pac where half the teams are ranked below 100.

That said, if we go 9-9 we'd probably be playing in Dayton and things could feel a lot like Lavin's final year if we lose the play in. Would people be happy with that result? 10-8 and a BET win needs to be the minimum goal.

If we can't achieve that during a down year in the Big East, we obviously don't deserve to dance.[/quote]

In 19 games we have scored 1565 points. Our bench, minus Dixon, has scored 99 of those points.
What we thought was a serviceable bench has turned out to be a facade. One or two starters have a sub par game we become mid major.
The conference is not down because it has the most balance ever.
I'm not ever sure Wright and Caraher would have changed the scenario much this year.
Look at how we evaluate talent. Matt following kids on Instagram and hopping on a plane. The botched Japan trip is an example. Who have the other coaches been on and following?[/quote]

Wow, now you're going after Matt. Is this a game strategy?[/quote]

Obviously the recruiting is all on Matt's shoulders so he doesn't escape criticism. He's a free agent specialist in the world of Instagram and record player dissatisfaction in college basketball that leads to transfers. We need someone like Matt. Given the hit and miss on the past dozen recruits from the prep ranks I'm not sure if he is a top evaluator of talent. I was hoping that was going to be Mullin and Mitch. Other than Ponds we are batting zero in the local tri state market. Mullin made a promise regarding that market and he has not fulfilled it. I go to CTK games and have rarely seen him. Matt yes, him no. That's why I ended my blurb with "Who have the other coaches been on and following?".
I'm not sure I should have even responded to the guy that said Bill Wennington wasn't a top prospect and that Mark Jackson was a distant third behind Kenny and Pearl, both of whom he ended up being the better pro prospect and who had a better pro career.;)
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=316646][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316645]Beast, I respect you as a poster and there's zero reason to try to make things personal. You claim my view is repeated ad naseum, but what about yours? Yours is too. Just pointing that out. Whether pro Mullin or anti Mullin, both sides echo similar points. That's bound to happen.

Anyway, it's just fascinating to me being a SJ fan. As a Jets fan, I've never seen anyone stick up for Todd Bowles after failing. I've never seen anyone seen anyone stick up for Terry Collins when he had some horrid years with us. I've never seen Knicks fans support losing coaches. But with St. John's, some seem to believe it's literally never the coach and always some other factors. If a CEO is leading a company to failure, would you hear people blaming the employees, or the CEO? We have a team full of 4 and 5 star talents. And the NCAA's seem like this mystical place that is nearly impossible to get to. News flash, Seton Hall and PC have passed us by. Under Lavin, we were clearly ahead of them most years if I remember correctly. Not only have they passed us by, but they have been to the tourney plenty. Before the season all I saw was how we had the most talent since our Elite 8 team decades ago. And in a year where no team really dominates except Nova, with our best talent in decades, we are unlikely to make the tourney? Again? Not sure how you can come to the conclusion that it's anything but coaching at this point. You can't get much more talented players than we already have. I seriously don't think Mullin would dominate with Kentucky's roster. I'm holding out hope we go on a run, but we all hope every year and we keep getting the same results. Don't blame me and don't blame the fans. Blame the staff for the failure.[/quote]

I don't see this as a failure Mike. Here are some of your beauties : just about every poster could coach better than Mullin, and 2) it's a known fact mullin is lazy and not working hard.

I see the improvements in roster and in game coaching. Is it enough? That's a subjective question but we are 15-4, almost at the 2/3 mark of the season, and still solidly in the hunt for a bid. To me that's improvement. To you not enough. Fair?[/quote]

Totally fair. And you know what? That's a good point. Objectively he has done better every year. I guess the disagreement is over how much of a jump we should be making. I may be on the high demand list of posters and maybe I demand too much at times...but even the most understanding posters said anything short of a tourney bid would be a failure this year. While it's still better to improve from last year vs. not improving, we are losing Ponds aka one of the greatest players to ever don a SJ jersey.

We already saw how we play without him and it wasn't pretty. I think we are getting some nice pieces actually in Tabor, Steere, Manuel, Mack, Wright, etc. and it will be nice to finally have size next year assuming Mullin isn't fired or doesn't resign. But I and many others just get the feeling that it doesn't matter what players he gets...his style is too lax and freestyle is not good for college basketball. These are still kids that need structure even if they think they're above that. We need a real system with a real solid staff. I respect the hell out of Mullin, but at the end of the day, no one is bigger than the program and if he can't take us to the tourney this year which will be very tough now, I don't see how you can expect any real success with him at the helm even with Precious, Kuminga, Kofi, etc. I used to believe it was all just the players and if you had a bunch of 4-5 star kids you'd be a good team. That turned out to be flat out false. You need a talented team but you also need a good coach with a system that leads to consistent success and stability.
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=316647][quote="Beast of the East" post=316637][quote="Class of 72" post=316634][quote="Adam" post=316629]I think 9-9 could get us in, but obviously by no means a lock. That is looking at NET as well as factoring in Q1/Q2 wins and upcoming opportunities. Nearly every game in the BE will be a Q1/Q2 game. I know we're all down on the Butler game, but that was a Q1 opportunity. That's very important when looking at other lesser conferences like the AAC/Pac where half the teams are ranked below 100.

That said, if we go 9-9 we'd probably be playing in Dayton and things could feel a lot like Lavin's final year if we lose the play in. Would people be happy with that result? 10-8 and a BET win needs to be the minimum goal.

If we can't achieve that during a down year in the Big East, we obviously don't deserve to dance.[/quote]

In 19 games we have scored 1565 points. Our bench, minus Dixon, has scored 99 of those points.
What we thought was a serviceable bench has turned out to be a facade. One or two starters have a sub par game we become mid major.
The conference is not down because it has the most balance ever.
I'm not ever sure Wright and Caraher would have changed the scenario much this year.
Look at how we evaluate talent. Matt following kids on Instagram and hopping on a plane. The botched Japan trip is an example. Who have the other coaches been on and following?[/quote]

Wow, now you're going after Matt. Is this a game strategy?[/quote]

Obviously the recruiting is all on Matt's shoulders so he doesn't escape criticism. He's a free agent specialist in the world of Instagram and record player dissatisfaction in college basketball that leads to transfers. We need someone like Matt. Given the hit and miss on the past dozen recruits from the prep ranks I'm not sure if he is a top evaluator of talent. I was hoping that was going to be Mullin and Mitch. Other than Ponds we are batting zero in the local tri state market. Mullin made a promise regarding that market and he has not fulfilled it. I go to CTK games and have rarely seen him. Matt yes, him no. That's why I ended my blurb with "Who have the other coaches been on and following?".
I'm not sure I should have even responded to the guy that said Bill Wennington wasn't a top prospect and that Mark Jackson was a distant third behind Kenny and Pearl, both of whom he ended up being the better pro prospect and who had a better pro career.;)[/quote]

Stating the obvious about Jackson's pro career. Wennington too. 14 years as a little used well liked player.

College head coaches don't bird dog, and every college coach will tell you that. They close on guys that assistants cultivate. If you want to claim Mullin can't close that's a subjective statement. You may be right or wrong but it's a lot easier to sell BMWs than buicks.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=316649][quote="Beast of the East" post=316646][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316645]Beast, I respect you as a poster and there's zero reason to try to make things personal. You claim my view is repeated ad naseum, but what about yours? Yours is too. Just pointing that out. Whether pro Mullin or anti Mullin, both sides echo similar points. That's bound to happen.

Anyway, it's just fascinating to me being a SJ fan. As a Jets fan, I've never seen anyone stick up for Todd Bowles after failing. I've never seen anyone seen anyone stick up for Terry Collins when he had some horrid years with us. I've never seen Knicks fans support losing coaches. But with St. John's, some seem to believe it's literally never the coach and always some other factors. If a CEO is leading a company to failure, would you hear people blaming the employees, or the CEO? We have a team full of 4 and 5 star talents. And the NCAA's seem like this mystical place that is nearly impossible to get to. News flash, Seton Hall and PC have passed us by. Under Lavin, we were clearly ahead of them most years if I remember correctly. Not only have they passed us by, but they have been to the tourney plenty. Before the season all I saw was how we had the most talent since our Elite 8 team decades ago. And in a year where no team really dominates except Nova, with our best talent in decades, we are unlikely to make the tourney? Again? Not sure how you can come to the conclusion that it's anything but coaching at this point. You can't get much more talented players than we already have. I seriously don't think Mullin would dominate with Kentucky's roster. I'm holding out hope we go on a run, but we all hope every year and we keep getting the same results. Don't blame me and don't blame the fans. Blame the staff for the failure.[/quote]

I don't see this as a failure Mike. Here are some of your beauties : just about every poster could coach better than Mullin, and 2) it's a known fact mullin is lazy and not working hard.

I see the improvements in roster and in game coaching. Is it enough? That's a subjective question but we are 15-4, almost at the 2/3 mark of the season, and still solidly in the hunt for a bid. To me that's improvement. To you not enough. Fair?[/quote]

Totally fair. And you know what? That's a good point. Objectively he has done better every year. I guess the disagreement is over how much of a jump we should be making. I may be on the high demand list of posters and maybe I demand too much at times...but even the most understanding posters said anything short of a tourney bid would be a failure this year. While it's still better to improve from last year vs. not improving, we are losing Ponds aka one of the greatest players to ever don a SJ jersey.

We already saw how we play without him and it wasn't pretty. I think we are getting some nice pieces actually in Tabor, Steere, Manuel, Mack, Wright, etc. and it will be nice to finally have size next year assuming Mullin isn't fired or doesn't resign. But I and many others just get the feeling that it doesn't matter what players he gets...his style is too lax and freestyle is not good for college basketball. These are still kids that need structure even if they think they're above that. We need a real system with a real solid staff. I respect the hell out of Mullin, but at the end of the day, no one is bigger than the program and if he can't take us to the tourney this year which will be very tough now, I don't see how you can expect any real success with him at the helm even with Precious, Kuminga, Kofi, etc. I used to believe it was all just the players and if you had a bunch of 4-5 star kids you'd be a good team. That turned out to be flat out false. You need a talented team but you also need a good coach with a system that leads to consistent success and stability.[/quote]

I think you have to have success to get more good players to come here. Guys visiting ca cant help but be impressed by the loud crowds filling the arena. For depaul the security lines were 50 deep trying to get in.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=316654][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316649][quote="Beast of the East" post=316646][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316645]Beast, I respect you as a poster and there's zero reason to try to make things personal. You claim my view is repeated ad naseum, but what about yours? Yours is too. Just pointing that out. Whether pro Mullin or anti Mullin, both sides echo similar points. That's bound to happen.

Anyway, it's just fascinating to me being a SJ fan. As a Jets fan, I've never seen anyone stick up for Todd Bowles after failing. I've never seen anyone seen anyone stick up for Terry Collins when he had some horrid years with us. I've never seen Knicks fans support losing coaches. But with St. John's, some seem to believe it's literally never the coach and always some other factors. If a CEO is leading a company to failure, would you hear people blaming the employees, or the CEO? We have a team full of 4 and 5 star talents. And the NCAA's seem like this mystical place that is nearly impossible to get to. News flash, Seton Hall and PC have passed us by. Under Lavin, we were clearly ahead of them most years if I remember correctly. Not only have they passed us by, but they have been to the tourney plenty. Before the season all I saw was how we had the most talent since our Elite 8 team decades ago. And in a year where no team really dominates except Nova, with our best talent in decades, we are unlikely to make the tourney? Again? Not sure how you can come to the conclusion that it's anything but coaching at this point. You can't get much more talented players than we already have. I seriously don't think Mullin would dominate with Kentucky's roster. I'm holding out hope we go on a run, but we all hope every year and we keep getting the same results. Don't blame me and don't blame the fans. Blame the staff for the failure.[/quote]

I don't see this as a failure Mike. Here are some of your beauties : just about every poster could coach better than Mullin, and 2) it's a known fact mullin is lazy and not working hard.

I see the improvements in roster and in game coaching. Is it enough? That's a subjective question but we are 15-4, almost at the 2/3 mark of the season, and still solidly in the hunt for a bid. To me that's improvement. To you not enough. Fair?[/quote]

Totally fair. And you know what? That's a good point. Objectively he has done better every year. I guess the disagreement is over how much of a jump we should be making. I may be on the high demand list of posters and maybe I demand too much at times...but even the most understanding posters said anything short of a tourney bid would be a failure this year. While it's still better to improve from last year vs. not improving, we are losing Ponds aka one of the greatest players to ever don a SJ jersey.

We already saw how we play without him and it wasn't pretty. I think we are getting some nice pieces actually in Tabor, Steere, Manuel, Mack, Wright, etc. and it will be nice to finally have size next year assuming Mullin isn't fired or doesn't resign. But I and many others just get the feeling that it doesn't matter what players he gets...his style is too lax and freestyle is not good for college basketball. These are still kids that need structure even if they think they're above that. We need a real system with a real solid staff. I respect the hell out of Mullin, but at the end of the day, no one is bigger than the program and if he can't take us to the tourney this year which will be very tough now, I don't see how you can expect any real success with him at the helm even with Precious, Kuminga, Kofi, etc. I used to believe it was all just the players and if you had a bunch of 4-5 star kids you'd be a good team. That turned out to be flat out false. You need a talented team but you also need a good coach with a system that leads to consistent success and stability.[/quote]

I think you have to have success to get more good players to come here. Guys visiting ca cant help but be impressed by the loud crowds filling the arena. For depaul the security lines were 50 deep trying to get in.[/quote]

But according to you, don't we have success with Mullin? You seem satisfied with what he has given us thus far. In his time here including up to date this season, he is 15-46 in Big East conference play. That equates to winning 32% of the games or losing 68% of them. Those numbers are startling. Almost 30 games under .500 in conference play is historically bad. Now obviously numbers need context like Lavin leaving him nothing early on, but still records are records and some coaches come right in and whip teams into shape. This is what St. John's basketball has been the last 4 years to this point in conference play...15-46. And some people think the fans are nuts to complain? Many programs would be annoyed if their coach was .500 in the same time, but 30 games under .500? I'm sorry I'm not sorry...it just seems to be an experiment that blew up in our faces and can't really see him taking us from always being inconsistent to suddenly consistent with less talent in the next few years. I don't see why things would be any different any year in the future if he stays.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=316654][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316649][quote="Beast of the East" post=316646][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316645]Beast, I respect you as a poster and there's zero reason to try to make things personal. You claim my view is repeated ad naseum, but what about yours? Yours is too. Just pointing that out. Whether pro Mullin or anti Mullin, both sides echo similar points. That's bound to happen.

Anyway, it's just fascinating to me being a SJ fan. As a Jets fan, I've never seen anyone stick up for Todd Bowles after failing. I've never seen anyone seen anyone stick up for Terry Collins when he had some horrid years with us. I've never seen Knicks fans support losing coaches. But with St. John's, some seem to believe it's literally never the coach and always some other factors. If a CEO is leading a company to failure, would you hear people blaming the employees, or the CEO? We have a team full of 4 and 5 star talents. And the NCAA's seem like this mystical place that is nearly impossible to get to. News flash, Seton Hall and PC have passed us by. Under Lavin, we were clearly ahead of them most years if I remember correctly. Not only have they passed us by, but they have been to the tourney plenty. Before the season all I saw was how we had the most talent since our Elite 8 team decades ago. And in a year where no team really dominates except Nova, with our best talent in decades, we are unlikely to make the tourney? Again? Not sure how you can come to the conclusion that it's anything but coaching at this point. You can't get much more talented players than we already have. I seriously don't think Mullin would dominate with Kentucky's roster. I'm holding out hope we go on a run, but we all hope every year and we keep getting the same results. Don't blame me and don't blame the fans. Blame the staff for the failure.[/quote]

I don't see this as a failure Mike. Here are some of your beauties : just about every poster could coach better than Mullin, and 2) it's a known fact mullin is lazy and not working hard.

I see the improvements in roster and in game coaching. Is it enough? That's a subjective question but we are 15-4, almost at the 2/3 mark of the season, and still solidly in the hunt for a bid. To me that's improvement. To you not enough. Fair?[/quote]

Totally fair. And you know what? That's a good point. Objectively he has done better every year. I guess the disagreement is over how much of a jump we should be making. I may be on the high demand list of posters and maybe I demand too much at times...but even the most understanding posters said anything short of a tourney bid would be a failure this year. While it's still better to improve from last year vs. not improving, we are losing Ponds aka one of the greatest players to ever don a SJ jersey.

We already saw how we play without him and it wasn't pretty. I think we are getting some nice pieces actually in Tabor, Steere, Manuel, Mack, Wright, etc. and it will be nice to finally have size next year assuming Mullin isn't fired or doesn't resign. But I and many others just get the feeling that it doesn't matter what players he gets...his style is too lax and freestyle is not good for college basketball. These are still kids that need structure even if they think they're above that. We need a real system with a real solid staff. I respect the hell out of Mullin, but at the end of the day, no one is bigger than the program and if he can't take us to the tourney this year which will be very tough now, I don't see how you can expect any real success with him at the helm even with Precious, Kuminga, Kofi, etc. I used to believe it was all just the players and if you had a bunch of 4-5 star kids you'd be a good team. That turned out to be flat out false. You need a talented team but you also need a good coach with a system that leads to consistent success and stability.[/quote]

I think you have to have success to get more good players to come here. Guys visiting ca cant help but be impressed by the loud crowds filling the arena. For depaul the security lines were 50 deep trying to get in.[/quote]
The lines security lines were 50 deep because we always have a late arriving crowd and the guards like to wand little old ladies as suspected terrorists.
 
[quote="bamafan" post=316656][quote="Beast of the East" post=316654][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316649][quote="Beast of the East" post=316646][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316645]Beast, I respect you as a poster and there's zero reason to try to make things personal. You claim my view is repeated ad naseum, but what about yours? Yours is too. Just pointing that out. Whether pro Mullin or anti Mullin, both sides echo similar points. That's bound to happen.

Anyway, it's just fascinating to me being a SJ fan. As a Jets fan, I've never seen anyone stick up for Todd Bowles after failing. I've never seen anyone seen anyone stick up for Terry Collins when he had some horrid years with us. I've never seen Knicks fans support losing coaches. But with St. John's, some seem to believe it's literally never the coach and always some other factors. If a CEO is leading a company to failure, would you hear people blaming the employees, or the CEO? We have a team full of 4 and 5 star talents. And the NCAA's seem like this mystical place that is nearly impossible to get to. News flash, Seton Hall and PC have passed us by. Under Lavin, we were clearly ahead of them most years if I remember correctly. Not only have they passed us by, but they have been to the tourney plenty. Before the season all I saw was how we had the most talent since our Elite 8 team decades ago. And in a year where no team really dominates except Nova, with our best talent in decades, we are unlikely to make the tourney? Again? Not sure how you can come to the conclusion that it's anything but coaching at this point. You can't get much more talented players than we already have. I seriously don't think Mullin would dominate with Kentucky's roster. I'm holding out hope we go on a run, but we all hope every year and we keep getting the same results. Don't blame me and don't blame the fans. Blame the staff for the failure.[/quote]

I don't see this as a failure Mike. Here are some of your beauties : just about every poster could coach better than Mullin, and 2) it's a known fact mullin is lazy and not working hard.

I see the improvements in roster and in game coaching. Is it enough? That's a subjective question but we are 15-4, almost at the 2/3 mark of the season, and still solidly in the hunt for a bid. To me that's improvement. To you not enough. Fair?[/quote]

Totally fair. And you know what? That's a good point. Objectively he has done better every year. I guess the disagreement is over how much of a jump we should be making. I may be on the high demand list of posters and maybe I demand too much at times...but even the most understanding posters said anything short of a tourney bid would be a failure this year. While it's still better to improve from last year vs. not improving, we are losing Ponds aka one of the greatest players to ever don a SJ jersey.

We already saw how we play without him and it wasn't pretty. I think we are getting some nice pieces actually in Tabor, Steere, Manuel, Mack, Wright, etc. and it will be nice to finally have size next year assuming Mullin isn't fired or doesn't resign. But I and many others just get the feeling that it doesn't matter what players he gets...his style is too lax and freestyle is not good for college basketball. These are still kids that need structure even if they think they're above that. We need a real system with a real solid staff. I respect the hell out of Mullin, but at the end of the day, no one is bigger than the program and if he can't take us to the tourney this year which will be very tough now, I don't see how you can expect any real success with him at the helm even with Precious, Kuminga, Kofi, etc. I used to believe it was all just the players and if you had a bunch of 4-5 star kids you'd be a good team. That turned out to be flat out false. You need a talented team but you also need a good coach with a system that leads to consistent success and stability.[/quote]

I think you have to have success to get more good players to come here. Guys visiting ca cant help but be impressed by the loud crowds filling the arena. For depaul the security lines were 50 deep trying to get in.[/quote]
The lines security lines were 50 deep because we always have a late arriving crowd and the guards like to wand little old ladies as suspected terrorists.[/quote]

What type of law do you practice. Class action suit?
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=316655][quote="Beast of the East" post=316654][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316649][quote="Beast of the East" post=316646][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316645]Beast, I respect you as a poster and there's zero reason to try to make things personal. You claim my view is repeated ad naseum, but what about yours? Yours is too. Just pointing that out. Whether pro Mullin or anti Mullin, both sides echo similar points. That's bound to happen.

Anyway, it's just fascinating to me being a SJ fan. As a Jets fan, I've never seen anyone stick up for Todd Bowles after failing. I've never seen anyone seen anyone stick up for Terry Collins when he had some horrid years with us. I've never seen Knicks fans support losing coaches. But with St. John's, some seem to believe it's literally never the coach and always some other factors. If a CEO is leading a company to failure, would you hear people blaming the employees, or the CEO? We have a team full of 4 and 5 star talents. And the NCAA's seem like this mystical place that is nearly impossible to get to. News flash, Seton Hall and PC have passed us by. Under Lavin, we were clearly ahead of them most years if I remember correctly. Not only have they passed us by, but they have been to the tourney plenty. Before the season all I saw was how we had the most talent since our Elite 8 team decades ago. And in a year where no team really dominates except Nova, with our best talent in decades, we are unlikely to make the tourney? Again? Not sure how you can come to the conclusion that it's anything but coaching at this point. You can't get much more talented players than we already have. I seriously don't think Mullin would dominate with Kentucky's roster. I'm holding out hope we go on a run, but we all hope every year and we keep getting the same results. Don't blame me and don't blame the fans. Blame the staff for the failure.[/quote]

I don't see this as a failure Mike. Here are some of your beauties : just about every poster could coach better than Mullin, and 2) it's a known fact mullin is lazy and not working hard.

I see the improvements in roster and in game coaching. Is it enough? That's a subjective question but we are 15-4, almost at the 2/3 mark of the season, and still solidly in the hunt for a bid. To me that's improvement. To you not enough. Fair?[/quote]

Totally fair. And you know what? That's a good point. Objectively he has done better every year. I guess the disagreement is over how much of a jump we should be making. I may be on the high demand list of posters and maybe I demand too much at times...but even the most understanding posters said anything short of a tourney bid would be a failure this year. While it's still better to improve from last year vs. not improving, we are losing Ponds aka one of the greatest players to ever don a SJ jersey.

We already saw how we play without him and it wasn't pretty. I think we are getting some nice pieces actually in Tabor, Steere, Manuel, Mack, Wright, etc. and it will be nice to finally have size next year assuming Mullin isn't fired or doesn't resign. But I and many others just get the feeling that it doesn't matter what players he gets...his style is too lax and freestyle is not good for college basketball. These are still kids that need structure even if they think they're above that. We need a real system with a real solid staff. I respect the hell out of Mullin, but at the end of the day, no one is bigger than the program and if he can't take us to the tourney this year which will be very tough now, I don't see how you can expect any real success with him at the helm even with Precious, Kuminga, Kofi, etc. I used to believe it was all just the players and if you had a bunch of 4-5 star kids you'd be a good team. That turned out to be flat out false. You need a talented team but you also need a good coach with a system that leads to consistent success and stability.[/quote]

I think you have to have success to get more good players to come here. Guys visiting ca cant help but be impressed by the loud crowds filling the arena. For depaul the security lines were 50 deep trying to get in.[/quote]

But according to you, don't we have success with Mullin? You seem satisfied with what he has given us thus far. In his time here including up to date this season, he is 15-46 in Big East conference play. That equates to winning 32% of the games or losing 68% of them. Those numbers are startling. Almost 30 games under .500 in conference play is historically bad. Now obviously numbers need context like Lavin leaving him nothing early on, but still records are records and some coaches come right in and whip teams into shape. This is what St. John's basketball has been the last 4 years to this point in conference play...15-46. And some people think the fans are nuts to complain? Many programs would be annoyed if their coach was .500 in the same time, but 30 games under .500? I'm sorry I'm not sorry...it just seems to be an experiment that blew up in our faces and can't really see him taking us from always being inconsistent to suddenly consistent with less talent in the next few years. I don't see why things would be any different any year in the future if he stays.[/quote]

Want to play that game?

What is overall record last season and this?
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=316654][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316649][quote="Beast of the East" post=316646][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316645]Beast, I respect you as a poster and there's zero reason to try to make things personal. You claim my view is repeated ad naseum, but what about yours? Yours is too. Just pointing that out. Whether pro Mullin or anti Mullin, both sides echo similar points. That's bound to happen.

Anyway, it's just fascinating to me being a SJ fan. As a Jets fan, I've never seen anyone stick up for Todd Bowles after failing. I've never seen anyone seen anyone stick up for Terry Collins when he had some horrid years with us. I've never seen Knicks fans support losing coaches. But with St. John's, some seem to believe it's literally never the coach and always some other factors. If a CEO is leading a company to failure, would you hear people blaming the employees, or the CEO? We have a team full of 4 and 5 star talents. And the NCAA's seem like this mystical place that is nearly impossible to get to. News flash, Seton Hall and PC have passed us by. Under Lavin, we were clearly ahead of them most years if I remember correctly. Not only have they passed us by, but they have been to the tourney plenty. Before the season all I saw was how we had the most talent since our Elite 8 team decades ago. And in a year where no team really dominates except Nova, with our best talent in decades, we are unlikely to make the tourney? Again? Not sure how you can come to the conclusion that it's anything but coaching at this point. You can't get much more talented players than we already have. I seriously don't think Mullin would dominate with Kentucky's roster. I'm holding out hope we go on a run, but we all hope every year and we keep getting the same results. Don't blame me and don't blame the fans. Blame the staff for the failure.[/quote]

I don't see this as a failure Mike. Here are some of your beauties : just about every poster could coach better than Mullin, and 2) it's a known fact mullin is lazy and not working hard.

I see the improvements in roster and in game coaching. Is it enough? That's a subjective question but we are 15-4, almost at the 2/3 mark of the season, and still solidly in the hunt for a bid. To me that's improvement. To you not enough. Fair?[/quote]

Totally fair. And you know what? That's a good point. Objectively he has done better every year. I guess the disagreement is over how much of a jump we should be making. I may be on the high demand list of posters and maybe I demand too much at times...but even the most understanding posters said anything short of a tourney bid would be a failure this year. While it's still better to improve from last year vs. not improving, we are losing Ponds aka one of the greatest players to ever don a SJ jersey.

We already saw how we play without him and it wasn't pretty. I think we are getting some nice pieces actually in Tabor, Steere, Manuel, Mack, Wright, etc. and it will be nice to finally have size next year assuming Mullin isn't fired or doesn't resign. But I and many others just get the feeling that it doesn't matter what players he gets...his style is too lax and freestyle is not good for college basketball. These are still kids that need structure even if they think they're above that. We need a real system with a real solid staff. I respect the hell out of Mullin, but at the end of the day, no one is bigger than the program and if he can't take us to the tourney this year which will be very tough now, I don't see how you can expect any real success with him at the helm even with Precious, Kuminga, Kofi, etc. I used to believe it was all just the players and if you had a bunch of 4-5 star kids you'd be a good team. That turned out to be flat out false. You need a talented team but you also need a good coach with a system that leads to consistent success and stability.[/quote]

I think you have to have success to get more good players to come here. Guys visiting ca cant help but be impressed by the loud crowds filling the arena. For depaul the security lines were 50 deep trying to get in.[/quote]

Do you think that success will come as quickly as it did in Blacksburg, Reno or Buffalo? The difference at those places isn't the weather.
You find fault with Carnesecca? You said you didn't mind the heat. The security lines have to be the worst in the league.
Yes, it's a shit hole no recruit should visit. Recruits should only attend MSG games.
Success?
Gonzaga has had no problem playing in a similar shit hole.
Success?
What is the common denominator in Blacksburg, Reno, Buffalo and Spokane?
Careful this is a trick question.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=316660]Mullin coaching record since start of last season: 31-21[/quote]

And his coaching record since Saturday is 0-0.
 
Just out of curiosity, if we don't make the Tournament this year would anybody be in favor of bringing the staff back for next year (which also would require extensions)? Believe the contracts are for either 5/6 years (currently year 4), and we can't have a lame duck staff.

For me, it's Tournament or bust. Obviously I am rooting hard for the team and would like to see the staff extended after a Tournament invite.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=316660]Mullin coaching record since start of last season: 31-21[/quote]

That's contract extension worthy!
Those negative Aholes also forget he was 12-0 to start the season.
We're obviously on the road to the Final Four!
You convinced me that is for sure!
Now, convince yourself.:p
 
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