(POST GAME) (#8 / #10) Villanova (MSG) Tues. Jan. 28, 6:30p, FS-1 / 570 AM

You hate to say it, because Rutherford, Caraher, Sears and Steere all chose to come here (albeit for different coaching staffs), but none of them are even close to Big East caliber players.

Rutherford is a hustler and a willing defender, but he misses so many open jumpers and now he cannot finish at the rim either. He's not a BE player.

Caraher looked serviceable in the non-conference but the faster pace of league play has exposed him. He's not a BE player. He was obviously very good in a low-major conference, but the jump here was too much for him.

Sears defends well and is an average rebounder, but his offense is woeful. On one possession last night he was posting up his man, and was open for an entry pass from the wing. Dunn didn't throw him the ball. One possession later, Dunn looked like a genius, when Sears shot two absolute bricks from three feet away. He's not close to a BE player.

Steere looks lost - its hard to believe he was recruited by NC State and ended up here. Was he a very good player at one time and he simply regressed these past two years?

We complained all last season about Keita (and I did my share of complaining as well), but Keita looks like Kareem compared to Sears and Steere.

It's not these guys' fault. They're playing hard. They are simply mid-major role-player talents that are simply exposed in the BE.

Champagnie, Williams and Roberts actually do have BE level physical talent. (I'm not sure why people seem to be down on Champ - he's doing fine and needs to play more minutes.)

I hate to do this, because the old staff is gone and we now have a newer, better staff in place - but what we were Matt A. and Mullin thinking with Caraher and Steere? Did they watch them play? How could they have thought they were BE talents? (Knowing what we know now, my guess is that Matt recommended them sight unseen and Mullin agreed without ever seeing them.)

Sears and Rutherford are on this staff, but they were scrambling to fill out a roster so they had to take some reaches. They had no choice.
 
I agree with most of that, except with respect to Rutherford, he can play at this level as a defender and distributor. He just can't score. On a team with a better supporting cast you live with that (probably as a second team guy). On this team, his weaknesses are highlighted.
 
[quote="RedmanMike" post=374803]You hate to say it, because Rutherford, Caraher, Sears and Steere all chose to come here (albeit for different coaching staffs), but none of them are even close to Big East caliber players.

Rutherford is a hustler and a willing defender, but he misses so many open jumpers and now he cannot finish at the rim either. He's not a BE player.

Caraher looked serviceable in the non-conference but the faster pace of league play has exposed him. He's not a BE player. He was obviously very good in a low-major conference, but the jump here was too much for him.

Sears defends well and is an average rebounder, but his offense is woeful. On one possession last night he was posting up his man, and was open for an entry pass from the wing. Dunn didn't throw him the ball. One possession later, Dunn looked like a genius, when Sears shot two absolute bricks from three feet away. He's not close to a BE player.

Steere looks lost - its hard to believe he was recruited by NC State and ended up here. Was he a very good player at one time and he simply regressed these past two years?

We complained all last season about Keita (and I did my share of complaining as well), but Keita looks like Kareem compared to Sears and Steere.

It's not these guys' fault. They're playing hard. They are simply mid-major role-player talents that are simply exposed in the BE.

Champagnie, Williams and Roberts actually do have BE level physical talent. (I'm not sure why people seem to be down on Champ - he's doing fine and needs to play more minutes.)

I hate to do this, because the old staff is gone and we now have a newer, better staff in place - but what we were Matt A. and Mullin thinking with Caraher and Steere? Did they watch it them play? How could they have thought they were BE talents? (Knowing what we know now, my guess is that Matt recommended them sight unseen and Mullin agreed without ever seeing them.)

Sears and Rutherford are on this staff, but they were scrambling to fill out a roster so they had to take some reaches. They had no choice.[/quote]
Earlington was seen in person by Mullin & Matt, but Steere was idle & nowhere to see him other than high school tape and getting opinions & have impression they took chance on Dave C sight unseen.
 
[quote="RedmanMike" post=374803]You hate to say it, because Rutherford, Caraher, Sears and Steere all chose to come here (albeit for different coaching staffs), but none of them are even close to Big East caliber players.

Rutherford is a hustler and a willing defender, but he misses so many open jumpers and now he cannot finish at the rim either. He's not a BE player.

Caraher looked serviceable in the non-conference but the faster pace of league play has exposed him. He's not a BE player. He was obviously very good in a low-major conference, but the jump here was too much for him.

Sears defends well and is an average rebounder, but his offense is woeful. On one possession last night he was posting up his man, and was open for an entry pass from the wing. Dunn didn't throw him the ball. One possession later, Dunn looked like a genius, when Sears shot two absolute bricks from three feet away. He's not close to a BE player.

Steere looks lost - its hard to believe he was recruited by NC State and ended up here. Was he a very good player at one time and he simply regressed these past two years?

We complained all last season about Keita (and I did my share of complaining as well), but Keita looks like Kareem compared to Sears and Steere.

It's not these guys' fault. They're playing hard. They are simply mid-major role-player talents that are simply exposed in the BE.

Champagnie, Williams and Roberts actually do have BE level physical talent. (I'm not sure why people seem to be down on Champ - he's doing fine and needs to play more minutes.)

I hate to do this, because the old staff is gone and we now have a newer, better staff in place - but what we were Matt A. and Mullin thinking with Caraher and Steere? Did they watch them play? How could they have thought they were BE talents? (Knowing what we know now, my guess is that Matt recommended them sight unseen and Mullin agreed without ever seeing them.)

Sears and Rutherford are on this staff, but they were scrambling to fill out a roster so they had to take some reaches. They had no choice.[/quote]

Caraher may grow into a high major player, but definitely not in this system. Same for Steere (wish he got some more minutes in the Seton Hall game, he looked solid in the few he played, must be something behind the scenes on that one). Sears and Rutherford have no business getting major minutes on a Big East team, but Rutherford has proven to be at least a little useful in spurts and as a one year roster filler you can live with.
 
you are telling me St johns brings in players they have never seen?

Who can I talk to up there. i like to give them my son's name.
 
Rutherford's game reminds me very much of Simon's game. Neither can shoot from distance, tough defenders and BE players as defenders. If we had other capable and reliable scorers he would not warrant this much attention.
LJ and Heron, our scorers, are trying to do more than they are capable of. Both good players in a system with a few other options.
Dunn has been a surprise to me. Extremely quick and tough as nails, but also try's to do too much. He needs to know when to drive and kick. He controls the ball too long in offensive sets. Needs to give it up and move.
CMA needs to alter hi substitution sequences. Too many 2nd stringers on the court at the same time, imho.
However, I fully support CMA and staff because this is the best staff I can remember in decades. They recruit, they teach, they coach. And they have a genuine affection for these kids.
 
I agree with Knight on one key point - this staff is the best I can remember since Looie retired. That's not saying a lot, looking back on it now...

The Mullin staff (especially after the Slice fiasco) was very weak, and Mullin proved not to be a very good HC.

Lavin's staff was good, not great (especially while Dunlap was here), but Lavin himself left a lot to be desired as a HC despite his strengths as a recruiter and public face of the program

Norm Roberts was in over his head, so it's hard to really comment on the staff

Looking back, Jarvis was actually a better head coach than I gave him credit for at the time, but his staff was a joke.

Fraschilla was a good HC with a good staff, including Rutledge from the Looie/Mahoney years, but he flamed out before he really got things rolling. Had he stayed and not gotten a wandering eye, he would have done very well here.

Mahoney always seemed overmatched to me at the head man after Looie, despite excellent recruiting. He largely had Looie's staff, but a good staff cannot overcome a poor HC
 
[quote="Knight" post=374813]Rutherford's game reminds me very much of Simon's game. Neither can shoot from distance, tough defenders and BE players as defenders. If we had other capable and reliable scorers he would not warrant this much attention.
LJ and Heron, our scorers, are trying to do more than they are capable of. Both good players in a system with a few other options.
Dunn has been a surprise to me. Extremely quick and tough as nails, but also try's to do too much. He needs to know when to drive and kick. He controls the ball too long in offensive sets. Needs to give it up and move.
CMA needs to alter hi substitution sequences. Too many 2nd stringers on the court at the same time, imho.
However, I fully support CMA and staff because this is the best staff I can remember in decades. They recruit, they teach, they coach. And they have a genuine affection for these kids.[/quote]

Completely agree about the substitution patterns. When Dunn was coming off the bench it masked this a little but sometimes we have five guys out there who just cannot put the ball in the basket and it’s very difficult to not allow momentum to shift.
 
[quote="Duke of Earlington" post=374811]you are telling me St johns brings in players they have never seen?

Who can I talk to up there. i like to give them my son's name.[/quote]
Isn’t he already on the team? ;)

I don’t want to bash Heron while he’s down but what happened to him? Did the ASU game screw him up mentally? What professional team, and I’m talking Europe, not the US, is gonna pay him significant money to play for their team? I don’t know if he’s got a year left here, but at this point it may behoove him to stay because his stock has to be super low right now.
 
[quote="guinness77" post=374818][quote="Duke of Earlington" post=374811]you are telling me St johns brings in players they have never seen?

Who can I talk to up there. i like to give them my son's name.[/quote]
Isn’t he already on the team? ;)

I don’t want to bash Heron while he’s down but what happened to him? Did the ASU game screw him up mentally? What professional team, and I’m talking Europe, not the US, is gonna pay him significant money to play for their team? I don’t know if he’s got a year left here, but at this point it may behoove him to stay because his stock has to be super low right now.[/quote]

He's a senior, so he can't come back.
 
[quote="Duke of Earlington" post=374799]Last night really showed how far away we are. I think this team will go into a tailspin now as they realize it to.

But what is the future?
Champaignie is losing confidence by the minute and is half the guy he was 2 months ago. Caraher has cement in his shoes. Earlington is a nice piece but he needs to lose 10-15lbs this offseason. Greg Williams is ok in spurts but shows no consistancy. Dunn played well last night but how far can you go with an undersized shooting guard who cant shoot?

It is going to take 3 full recruiting classes to turn this around. Remember after year 3, jay wright finished 11th in the big east.[/quote]

So funny to compare the comments of this Board btwn a win and a loss. After the DePaul win some folks were talking NCAA. Universally they were talking about how Champagnie had risen above the "Freshman Wall" since coming off the bench. Now, after the Nova game, he's half the guy he was two months ago.

For my part, I think this team will win three or four more games. They are what they are -- limited on talent, but full of hustle. This year is clearly a rebuilding year. Let's root for the kids and see what next year brings.
 
[quote="Boo Harvey" post=374820][quote="Duke of Earlington" post=374799]Last night really showed how far away we are. I think this team will go into a tailspin now as they realize it to.

But what is the future?
Champaignie is losing confidence by the minute and is half the guy he was 2 months ago. Caraher has cement in his shoes. Earlington is a nice piece but he needs to lose 10-15lbs this offseason. Greg Williams is ok in spurts but shows no consistancy. Dunn played well last night but how far can you go with an undersized shooting guard who cant shoot?

It is going to take 3 full recruiting classes to turn this around. Remember after year 3, jay wright finished 11th in the big east.[/quote]

So funny to compare the comments of this Board btwn a win and a loss. After the DePaul win some folks were talking NCAA. Universally they were talking about how Champagnie had risen above the "Freshman Wall" since coming off the bench. Now, after the Nova game, he's half the guy he was two months ago.

For my part, I think this team will win three or four more games. They are what they are -- limited on talent, but full of hustle. This year is clearly a rebuilding year. Let's root for the kids and see what next year brings.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. The team is playing hard and doing their best. They just played the #8 team in the country and lost. They will win a few more and probably lose more than they win but they are staying the course. We are getting 110% effort for the most part and that is all you can ask for. I enjoyed this season more than last due to the effort put forth and I am confident MA will get us a consistent winner. Just need to give him a little time and get his own players at SJ.
 
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[quote="espken" post=374795][quote="Section3" post=374769][quote="Ken Shark" post=374766]
Now to the comedy portion of the show, Sears, on 2 consecutive 5 foot shots, caught all backboard, no rim. Forget bricks, they were concrete blocks, made me yearn for the days of Yakwe and Sima.[/quote] think you are overlooking the positive...they were actually very soft 10 footers from 2 feet.[/quote]

Actually his release on both those bunnies reminded me of a dodgeball throwing motion[/quote]
More like a dodge ball dodging motion. :eek:hmy:
 
I openly wondered about what was it about DePaul win that gave our fans high hopes of beating Villanova. DePaul played so poorly down the stretch, shot so poorly especially from three, that our lead wasn't challenged at all. In that game, LJ played his best offensive game of his career, and after Heron and Dunn the rest shot miserably.

You play games like this to get a measure of where our team is right now. I really don't agree with the assessments that on a top team we have a lot of serviceable parts. I would not be surprised if Figueroa foregoes his senior year to play professionally somewhere - it's a growing trend. Earlington is a strong body who can give a handful or minutes, Roberts too. Dunn would get significant minutes, and Champaignie may also warrant minutes depending on improvement. Not sure about Williams. Basically after LJ and Heron, it's a team of subs.

I thought if we played tough nose to nose basketball the way we turned the Seton Hall game into a war we could play them close, but Villanova is a deep and talented team. They can go after top level talent and as importantly fill a roster with the type of player they want, passing over 4 or 5 star players who may not fit well. They penetrate and dish with a purpose and the guys who station themselves at the three point line can all nail shots. We were only in the game for the first half of the first half, and never challenged at all again.

On a good day we can beat many of the teams in our conference, but we are starting to see how much of a gap there is between top level talent and our guys. On a night where our defense can be disruptive and our offense clicks, we can compete, but clearly last night Villanova had no trouble with our defensive pressure and just carved us up.

Make no mistake about it, Villanova did play well last night, and on a night where our guys play very well and there's not so much, we could give them a game. Last night wasn't it though.
 
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Probably the only thing this team does above average is pressure defense. This was especially apparent in the OOC part of the schedule. When they come up vs a team that is adept at handling pressure they are finished. Without easy baskets created by the pressure they are incapable of generating any offense.
 
Talent gap is what is is. Staff seems competent and dedicated.

Team hustles, fun to pull for and occasionally surprise like Zona and WV, but quality at end of day trumps the unusual.

CMA and staff have to close the gap noted and best not to jump to conclusions re new folks until we see them v BE competition. This class and 21 will tell us a lot.

In the meantime, I’ll just root hard and trust CMA wants to end his career with a bang at my alma mater.
 
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[quote="Mike Zaun" post=374790]First time I haven't watched back to back games since I really started being a big time fan in 2011. To already go through so many of these types of seasons with Mullin and now rebuilding again...hard to watch. Can't justify a $30 LIRR ticket and $50+ ticket on a work night to see this team right now. Our conference performance has been so horrendous the last 5 years that we have been totally outclassed by every other program except DePaul. I realize much if not all of this is because we have almost no talent at this level. Heron is not a good player, I'm sorry. Just can't get it done for us. I mentioned several weeks ago that I bet this is just what we get from him and that seems to be the case. It's not injury. He's a 2nd or 3rd option on a good team. Not a 1st. This is what 4-5 star guys vs. 2-3 star guys looks like most of the time. So recruiting absolutely does matter to an extent. It's cool to go after some dark horses as role players and stuff, but our main guys need to be studs. I'm still waiting to see CMA bring in a legit consensus 4 star and wouldn't really count Posh since he's 3 star on some sites plus an injury. If he can't get regular 4 stars he will probably last as long as Lavin/Mullin. If he can, he gets an extension.[/quote]

You do know Heron was a top 20 recruit out of high school, right? Although, I usually dismiss a player's HS ranking after they've spent a year or two in college; there's technically a 5-star player on our roster.

I do agree, long-term, the staff will have to take it up another notch when it comes to landing upper-tier talent.... I don't see why you have to obsess over it after every loss.

Lastly, Posh Alexander only broke his arm a season ago. So, why continue to harp on his injury. A broken arm isn't considered a major injury. It's typically a minor injury, so I don't know why you're so persistent in speaking about Alexander's injury (unless, it's all part of pushing a narrative).
 
[quote="MJDinkins" post=374829][quote="Mike Zaun" post=374790]First time I haven't watched back to back games since I really started being a big time fan in 2011. To already go through so many of these types of seasons with Mullin and now rebuilding again...hard to watch. Can't justify a $30 LIRR ticket and $50+ ticket on a work night to see this team right now. Our conference performance has been so horrendous the last 5 years that we have been totally outclassed by every other program except DePaul. I realize much if not all of this is because we have almost no talent at this level. Heron is not a good player, I'm sorry. Just can't get it done for us. I mentioned several weeks ago that I bet this is just what we get from him and that seems to be the case. It's not injury. He's a 2nd or 3rd option on a good team. Not a 1st. This is what 4-5 star guys vs. 2-3 star guys looks like most of the time. So recruiting absolutely does matter to an extent. It's cool to go after some dark horses as role players and stuff, but our main guys need to be studs. I'm still waiting to see CMA bring in a legit consensus 4 star and wouldn't really count Posh since he's 3 star on some sites plus an injury. If he can't get regular 4 stars he will probably last as long as Lavin/Mullin. If he can, he gets an extension.[/quote]

You do know Heron was a top 20 recruit out of high school, right? Although, I usually dismiss a player's HS ranking after they've spent a year or two in college; there's technically a 5-star player on our roster.

I do agree, long-term, the staff will have to take it up another notch when it comes to landing upper-tier talent.... I don't see why you have to obsess over it after every loss.

Lastly, Posh Alexander only broke his arm a season ago. So, why continue to harp on his injury. A broken arm isn't considered a major injury. It's typically a minor injury, so I don't know why you're so persistent in speaking about Alexander's injury (unless, it's all part of pushing a narrative).[/quote]

Which narrative, today's, yesterday's or the day before or the day before that?
 
[quote="otis" post=374773]I am not sure whether posters appreciate just how much this team lacks overall Big East talent and depth. It is easy to arm-chair criticize missed shots and player error but in the end well coached talent (see Villanova) beats well coached hustle (see StJ’s).

For example, above posters complain about Nick Rutherford’s performances. Not to single out Nick but he is an example of someone who is playing in a league that is above his skills. Last season at Monmouth he was not a regular starter, starting 15 games of Monmouth’s 35 games. He averaged 5.3 points per game against far less talent than this season.

I am not posting this to demean Nick Rutherford who I am told is a great kid but the fact is he is the best St. John’s has at the moment . It is not Nick’s fault, nor is is CMA’s failure that Mr. Mullin’s departure left the roster bare and made CMA scramble to even fill a roster.

How many players on this St. John’s roster would start on other Big East teams ? Not many, but to their credit they play hard and hustle.

The reality is that this team’s results exceed the sum of its parts.

As a StJohn’s fan I have learned to stay optimistic about the always promising “next year” which more times than not also disappoints. Keep hope alive.[/quote]

Absolutely perfect summary.
 
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