I think youre right. Too bad, that would get 10000+
Official 2014-2015 Schedule Thread
- Thread starter Jack Williams
- Start date
I think youre right. Too bad, that would get 10000+
Avon Barksdale
Member
Love how you go up to Christmas so you can exclude the Louisville game, but if that works for you, that is fine with me.
So IN REALITY he played Louisville, UNC, Baylor and MSU before the SEC schedule (Plus Providence). We played Wisconsin Syracuse Penn State and Georgia Tech. Kentucky's OOC schedule was better....are you still following me here???
I think that would be a great OOC schedule for SJU (and we can swap PC for Tennessee since they were both 11 seeds in the NCAAs).
I am sure that difficult scheduling is one of the reasons they made it to Monday night.
The only thing Cal and Lavin have in common is they both played Robert Morris in the NIT the last two seasons.
Just look at the SEC vs Big East performance in the NCAAs and that speaks for itself. Doesnt matter if they had 3 bids and the BE had 4 - they were the dominant conference. Not even debatable.
Well, they both actually lost to Robert Morris so there's that.
If C of 72 is trying to convince anyone that STJ is KY, well lets just say that ain't gonna work. They are a program at another level reserved for only the opt 5 or so programs in the country. And for that reason I don't actually support playing a KY schedule of but understand that there needs to be at least 5 or 6 top 50 teams in the non-conference schedule, especially now with the watered down BE. By all accounts a top 10 game is equal to a top 50 game in the way the selection committee looks at individual records so I don't see the benefit of playing 5 top 25 teams. A mix is fine.
Whether KY's schedule is what got them to Monday night, well that's extremely questionable. They got to Monday night because they had 5 or 6 of the top 40 players in the country, by potential at least, who still managed to lose 10 games because Cal doesn't run a NCAA program, he runs an all star team. As long as he can keep getting 5 of the top 20 recruits every year he can keep rolling the ball out there, provide whatever direction he thinks his recruits will stomach throughout the season and hope they mature and come together enough to play to their potential by March. In reality he has the most talent year in and year out. That can't be questioned. In my eyes any year he doesn't get to the final four is a failure.
If C of 72 is trying to convince anyone that STJ is KY, well lets just say that ain't gonna work. They are a program at another level reserved for only the opt 5 or so programs in the country. And for that reason I don't actually support playing a KY schedule of but understand that there needs to be at least 5 or 6 top 50 teams in the non-conference schedule, especially now with the watered down BE. By all accounts a top 10 game is equal to a top 50 game in the way the selection committee looks at individual records so I don't see the benefit of playing 5 top 25 teams. A mix is fine.
Whether KY's schedule is what got them to Monday night, well that's extremely questionable. They got to Monday night because they had 5 or 6 of the top 40 players in the country, by potential at least, who still managed to lose 10 games because Cal doesn't run a NCAA program, he runs an all star team. As long as he can keep getting 5 of the top 20 recruits every year he can keep rolling the ball out there, provide whatever direction he thinks his recruits will stomach throughout the season and hope they mature and come together enough to play to their potential by March. In reality he has the most talent year in and year out. That can't be questioned. In my eyes any year he doesn't get to the final four is a failure.
The big bad SEC went 12-3 in the NCAA tournament
The Big East went 2-4
Class of 72
Active member
"Doesnt matter if they had 3 bids and the BE had 4 - they were the dominant conference. Not even debatable"
You see Hit, it is debatable! That is what we do here! It does matter how many bids, according to one of your missives. You tried to define your concept of the super high level conference to disparage the Big East and I threw the SEC in there for you to debate. As usual, you circumvent the issue.
Hit, you will regain any credibility you lost here if you start answering questions with just a little bit of honesty. I asked you what you thought of UK's early season OOC whose cupcakes were just as fluffy as your favorite team and mine. To see if it would drive you to find a contrary view just to hammer your mantra that the new Big East with just 10 teams sucks, I deliberately left off Louisville who they played after Christmas. True to form, you did exactly as I thought. Even the casual fan here on redmen knows that UK's SOS was stronger than SJU but the OOC, by UK standards, was the usual 8 or more low level schools that they pad their won-loss record with every year. You only seem to be critical of the SJU OOC approach and defend UK that has been doing it since Adolph Rupp.
I mention the SEC because it is a power conference that has only one or two teams that contend for the sweet 16 every year. Yeah, yeah we all know how to skew numbers like you and young Jack try to do with the TOTAL number of wins this year in the NCAA. Let's forget that the reason is two teams advanced as far as they did and in "reality" is not a reflection of the conferences. There is no reason to think the new Big East cannot live up (or down) to the SEC's glorious past (Not so glorious if Kentucky did not pay coaches $5 million). As I tried to explain, this year the SEC as evaluated by better expert opinion than yours or mine, was rated below the new and weakened Big East. See below for final 2013-14 ratings of the top six conference out of 33 conferences. For a down year and without finishing expansion, the Big East, in terms of competition from within the conference and OOC, did exceptionally well unless someone from the remote island of Long Beach manufactures something just to stir the pot. I am just as critical most times as you or the Maven but I don't let it cloud my loyalty. Regardless, welcome back kid!
Rank Conference Rating
1 Big 12 106.7
2 Big Ten 106.6
3 Pac-12 106.0
4 ACC 105.9
5 Big East 105.5
6 SEC 105.0
FWIW conference RPI wasn't even that close. No doubt SEC had 2 great teams and one borderline but they were pretty weak after that and the bottom 7 were horrible.
Rank Conference Avg. RPI Avg. SOS SOS Rank Teams
1 Big 12 0.5811 0.5781 1 10
2 Big Ten 0.5741 0.5707 2 12
3 Pacific-12 0.5686 0.5653 3 12
4 Big East 0.5634 0.5600 4 10
5 Atlantic Coast 0.5589 0.5592 5 15
6 Atlantic 10 0.5556 0.5490 7 13
7 Southeastern 0.5513 0.5540 6 14
8 American Athletic 0.5454 0.5420 8 10
9 West Coast 0.5346 0.5321 9 10
10 Mountain West 0.5266 0.5285 10 11
Rank Conference Avg. RPI Avg. SOS SOS Rank Teams
1 Big 12 0.5811 0.5781 1 10
2 Big Ten 0.5741 0.5707 2 12
3 Pacific-12 0.5686 0.5653 3 12
4 Big East 0.5634 0.5600 4 10
5 Atlantic Coast 0.5589 0.5592 5 15
6 Atlantic 10 0.5556 0.5490 7 13
7 Southeastern 0.5513 0.5540 6 14
8 American Athletic 0.5454 0.5420 8 10
9 West Coast 0.5346 0.5321 9 10
10 Mountain West 0.5266 0.5285 10 11
Class of 72
Active member
I would be the last person here to compare us, talent-wise, to Kentucky. The new Big East is taking a big hit from Hit so I was using the SEC, a super conference according to Hit's standard, as a comparison. Read my latest post for more on this offseason debate. I just hope our presidents and commissioner understand how important it is to get VCU, Dayton or St. Louis.
Avon Barksdale
Member
In Lavin's first year we were 21-11 going into the NCAA's as a 6-Seed. and there was no question whether we were in or out This past year we were 20-12 entering the NIT (one game worse than 2011) and there was absolutely no chance of us getting a bid this year.
The strength of the Big East. You can all say the Big East was the third rated conference and give your little stats and charts, BUT due to the conference downsizing in teams, and replacing top tier teams like UConn, Syracuse Pitt Louisville, Cinci and ND with the likes of Butler Creighton and Xavier, the problem is there are not as many opportunities to register "quality wins" or "Top 50 wins". The entire run in Feb and March go back and read my posts...i consistently said that we have a poor top 50 record which will kill us. We beat Creighton. We lost every other game vs the Top 50 and then we were in a do or die game against Xavier with our season hanging in the balance. We lost to Penn State and Depaul and there was not enough substance on our schedule to even that out.
Go back to 2011. We lost to Fordham (lol) St Bonnies and Seton Hall. Those losses were offset by wins over Georgetown, Cinci, Villanova, ND, Duke, Pitt, UConn. We also had quality wins over Marquette WVU and we won the Alaska shoot out. We also scheduled St. Marys, UCLA and Davidson OOC that year.
We should schedule quality opponents going from now on so we are not left with a scenario like we had this past year.....a less than stellar RPI with not enough opportunities to raise it.
As for the SEC vs Big East argument, like i said earlier in the post, you can give me all the stats and percentages you want, the only stats that matter are wins. SEC 12-3 in the NCAAs and the Big East 2-4. If you wanna believe the Big East is better than the SEC thats great, and maybe you will also believe that i have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale
The strength of the Big East. You can all say the Big East was the third rated conference and give your little stats and charts, BUT due to the conference downsizing in teams, and replacing top tier teams like UConn, Syracuse Pitt Louisville, Cinci and ND with the likes of Butler Creighton and Xavier, the problem is there are not as many opportunities to register "quality wins" or "Top 50 wins". The entire run in Feb and March go back and read my posts...i consistently said that we have a poor top 50 record which will kill us. We beat Creighton. We lost every other game vs the Top 50 and then we were in a do or die game against Xavier with our season hanging in the balance. We lost to Penn State and Depaul and there was not enough substance on our schedule to even that out.
Go back to 2011. We lost to Fordham (lol) St Bonnies and Seton Hall. Those losses were offset by wins over Georgetown, Cinci, Villanova, ND, Duke, Pitt, UConn. We also had quality wins over Marquette WVU and we won the Alaska shoot out. We also scheduled St. Marys, UCLA and Davidson OOC that year.
We should schedule quality opponents going from now on so we are not left with a scenario like we had this past year.....a less than stellar RPI with not enough opportunities to raise it.
As for the SEC vs Big East argument, like i said earlier in the post, you can give me all the stats and percentages you want, the only stats that matter are wins. SEC 12-3 in the NCAAs and the Big East 2-4. If you wanna believe the Big East is better than the SEC thats great, and maybe you will also believe that i have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale
STJ11Redmen
Active member
If we played the 2011 schedule with this year's team we wouldn't have even made the NIT.
Was watching the Duke game from Lavin's first year today on my DVR. The team with DJ, Hardy, Brownlee , Booth, Evens, etc was so much more watchable. They hustled, pressed, defended, rebounded and in general were so much more aggressive. These kids had heart. I think that is what we are missing. This is an intangible which Lavin needs to look for in recruits. Talent is one thing, heart (the will to win) is another.
Class of 72
Active member
SO! We all give you conference stats from different sources that showed the SEC was top heavy with 3 teams and ranked lower than the "weak" Big East and your brain will not process it! Conference RPI? The Big East had 4 in the top 50 as did the SEC and SJU was in that group. Your defense is that pops team had a run in the NCAA that artifically boosted the strenght of the SEC when, in fact, it did not reflect its strenght from top to bottom. As far as wins in the NCAA, the AAC and UCONN won it all. So much for conference rankings. End of discussion. Now, get the Maven to broker an SJU-UK home and home. Also, be careful of criticizing Fox Sports when someone close to you readily accepts their perks.
P.S. Tennessee and the SEC just lost Cuonzo Martin. Lavin is heart broken!
9 of the 12 SEC NCAA Tournament wins came from Kentucky (5) and Florida (4). One team was preseason #1, while the other held the #1 spot for several weeks. Two of the better teams in collegiate hoops. Does those 9 wins count for their conference? Yes. But don't act like from top-to-bottom the SEC is clearly better than the Big East.
Not to mention, why cherry-pick one particular tournament year and claim the SEC to be a better conference than the Big East? IMO, it isn't that clear cut.
I'll tell you the perfect team to schedule on a home and home basis. Purdue. (And not just because my kid goes there 
)
You would get a middle of the pack Big Ten team. One that should be in the top 70. A very competitive game. Most of all....the Keady factor. (The court in West Lafayette does bear his name).
With an enrollment of 40k, there would be enough Purdue alums in this area to help fill (or come close to filling) the Garden. Schedule it around a holiday and I'm sure that folks will even travel from Indiana.
What do you think?
)You would get a middle of the pack Big Ten team. One that should be in the top 70. A very competitive game. Most of all....the Keady factor. (The court in West Lafayette does bear his name).
With an enrollment of 40k, there would be enough Purdue alums in this area to help fill (or come close to filling) the Garden. Schedule it around a holiday and I'm sure that folks will even travel from Indiana.
What do you think?
It's not just about who you schedule it's about who you beat. STJ played 11 games against RPI top 50 teams, that's more than plenty of teams that got at large bids. The fact that they went 2-9 in those games is the unacceptable part. Adding 3 more top 50 OOC games, as I recommended earlier, would still certainly help the resume, but you gotta win a few more as well. Next year Minn, Gonz and Syracuse will be top 50 RPI OOC games. Add 3 more that you have a chance of winning would be my strategy. Then try not to start the conference season 0-5, in other words take care of business. The conference is obviously not the old Big East but winning 12 conference games and having a few quality OOC wins will get bids from the BE for a long time to come. That should be the goal.
Re the SEC, well we'll just have to disagree that an entire conference is defined by its top two teams.
I'll tell you the perfect team to schedule on a home and home basis. Purdue. (And not just because my kid goes there
You would get a middle of the pack Big Ten team. One that should be in the top 70. A very competitive game. Most of all....the Keady factor. (The court in West Lafayette does bear his name).
With an enrollment of 40k, there would be enough Purdue alums in this area to help fill (or come close to filling) the Garden. Schedule it around a holiday and I'm sure that folks will even travel from Indiana.
What do you think?
Would rather Illinois, Iowa, or wisconsin. Purdue doesnt excite me. But I wouldnt say no to them either.
Spot on. It varies from year to year, but it was not hard to make the NCAA Tournament last year. Our schedule was not the problem it was how poorly we performed against that schedule. There are any number of ways to get into the tourney and we didn't capitalize on any of them. 0-2 in our two strongest OOC games. Not sweeping DePaul + not winning a Barclay's Tournament against back-end major conference competition. 2-7 against the top 4 teams in our conference. You start making small changes in any of those three areas and we are dancing. 0-3 and you don't belong in the Tournament.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be helpful to take a look at the schedule and see how we can strengthen it in light of the Tournament Committee's criteria. They certainly seem to (misguidedly) focus on Top 50 games with little regard for whether it's Top 5 or 45-50, so I like the suggestion one person made to look into scheduling (projected) 25-50 teams. But it won't matter unless we start winning the games. We had a schedule this year that frankly we should have dominated, and we left an easy 3-5 wins on the table which is the difference between getting a decent seed and watching on TV.
westchesterjoe
Active member
I think , to a degree, that Lavin's eye for talent is overrated. In his recruiting, he seems to overlook the fact that Athletic players of virtually the same size do not necessarily translate to building a good team..Also too, unless you actually see a player in competition regularly, how do you evaluate them? On press clipping? Why bring in Hooper if you didn't try and exploit his shooting skills , while tolerating his deficiencies? No one on our team , Jordan excluded plays good defense, so what if Max was one of them? THERE WAS NOT ONE PLAY set up for Hooper or last year, Marco. Why bring them in at all then?
We've had too many players that had deficiencies in their games. CO was/is a limited player that hasn't developed a true overall game. maybe he never will. Blocking shots is one thing. bricking free throws and fouling incessantly are another. Doubt he will ever develop a inside game of any importance. I DON'T EVEN WANT TO COMMENT ON POINTER'S GAME. IT has all been said by most.
Sampson was a enigma.. He probably thought he could get by on his talent and press clippings, he couldn't He doesn't have nearly the potential Harkless had. It might be true also that he probably thought he would have the offense set up for him but, didn't factor in that in LAVINBALL HAS NO OFFENSIVE SETS.. for anyone.
He also showed he still had a lot of me only BB IN HIS dna.. HE put up good numbers but, not to the level he was expected to deliver...11-12 ppg aren't that special, if you want the NBA in your sights. PLUS HE DIDN'T IMPROVE THIS YEAR OVER LAST YEAR. And, obviously most BE coaches didn't think much of his game, leaving him off all post season teams. To me, Harris on Providence had much more game and pro potential than Sampson.
Losing nearly every big game in Lavin's tenure, excluding the Hardy team, doesn't bode well for next year. Regardless of the schedule.
We've had too many players that had deficiencies in their games. CO was/is a limited player that hasn't developed a true overall game. maybe he never will. Blocking shots is one thing. bricking free throws and fouling incessantly are another. Doubt he will ever develop a inside game of any importance. I DON'T EVEN WANT TO COMMENT ON POINTER'S GAME. IT has all been said by most.
Sampson was a enigma.. He probably thought he could get by on his talent and press clippings, he couldn't He doesn't have nearly the potential Harkless had. It might be true also that he probably thought he would have the offense set up for him but, didn't factor in that in LAVINBALL HAS NO OFFENSIVE SETS.. for anyone.
He also showed he still had a lot of me only BB IN HIS dna.. HE put up good numbers but, not to the level he was expected to deliver...11-12 ppg aren't that special, if you want the NBA in your sights. PLUS HE DIDN'T IMPROVE THIS YEAR OVER LAST YEAR. And, obviously most BE coaches didn't think much of his game, leaving him off all post season teams. To me, Harris on Providence had much more game and pro potential than Sampson.
Losing nearly every big game in Lavin's tenure, excluding the Hardy team, doesn't bode well for next year. Regardless of the schedule.