Fuchsia and JF, i truly appreciate your sincereity and your open-mindedness on this topic. While I agree on attacking defining characteristics, i feel there are a couple of related anamolies. First, sometimes these attacks are more myth than reality, e.g., travel ban for 7 countries is not a Muslim ban. Second, the whiners arent simply whining, they attack Trump and non-Trump supporters for any slight disagreement with racist, misoygynist, xenophobic, homophic, fascistic ... and the list could go on. I think this is happening is because debate is at the ideological level rather than policy level. So im going to share a list of 10 policy issues later and would be very interested in your views
Nov 8, 2016 - The lesser of two evils?
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Fuchsia and JF, i truly appreciate your sincereity and your open-mindedness on this topic. While I agree on attacking defining characteristics, i feel there are a couple of related anamolies. First, sometimes these attacks are more myth than reality, e.g., travel ban for 7 countries is not a Muslim ban. Second, the whiners arent simply whining, they attack Trump and non-Trump supporters for any slight disagreement with racist, misoygynist, xenophobic, homophic, fascistic ... and the list could go on. I think this is happening is because debate is at the ideological level rather than policy level. So im going to share a list of 10 policy issues later and would be very interested in your views
Here I have fifteen, no, eight policy commandments 
... By policy I mean both the formal statement of intent by which what is not included in that policy is an unstated part of policy. So for national insurance my policy could be we will provide free education, health, cheap food and housing. But my policy says nothing about employment insurance, which by its very nature is part of my unstated policy. Here goes, and please tear the ideas apart.
1. Immigration - I do not support open borders and illegal immigrants and for that matter sanctuary cities, and the use of public assistance for people that don't even have the right to be here. I am not selfish, I know the law is that immirgation and refugee entry is not a right but a priviedge. Now this begs the question do I want to stop immigration? No. Rather like in many of my views below it should be about the rule of law, e.g., it should be legal, assimilative to a overall values, and integrated with the overall society, and not a cause of national security.
2. Refugees - is related to above about legality but also the values and integration, but most importantly not come at a heavy cost to average Americans to bear the brunt of financing refugees.
3. Military and VA - Needs to be right-sized and appreciated. I do not know much about military policy and strategy so cant offer specific policy prescriptions. However on under-appreciation, the veterans are increasingly homeless with the suicide rate is out of control, the VA is a mess and not many on the left seem to give a shit. They seem to be more worried about some refugee or illegal alien than these men and women. It is a disgrace to me. Another bureaucracy that seriously needs to be rationalized along providing the social and economic services our veterans deserve.
4. International standing - This is controversial but under Obama (unlike Reagan) we are looking like a weak country abroad, especially amongst extremist. No respect at all for all that we do as a nation for other countries. The aide we give and so on, yet we can't say we want to halt the refugee process for 120 days to check on how safe the vetting process is without the (United Nations) voicing a ridiculous opinion?
5. The economy - I propose a return to a mix of Reaganomics and Protectionism (while we restore, rebuild and rejuvenate our industry). Untangling onerous environmental regulations and replacing them with smart regulations based on environment, economic and social criteria that maximizes the triple benefits where available, or helps manage the seeming trade-offs, and are devolved to state and sub-state levels, and where the job of the bloated EPA at the fed level is more of a coordinating role on an enabling legal and policy framework for decisions, and actions to take place locally. Further more, just to unpack federal spending, and argue along the lines of the EPA, a number of government institutions need to be rationalized (not necessarily downsized) which are a cancer on the federal budget and promote inefficiencies and under-achievements (e.g. the department of education), meaning not only are they wasteful and inefficient, they are also ineffective to the point of being undermining. Under Obama, we reached unheard of deficit, inequality, thwarted growth, and while the unemployment numbers are thrown out to show what tremendous progress has been made. I can debunk this along two lines easily, e.g., labour force participation and massive public employment (that bloat the bureaucracy, mask the failure in generating private jobs, and are financed by YOU. The employment statistic mask also how many people are underemployed and unemployed relative to job seekers population growth.
6. Social issues - race relations, education, health and other social protection insurance - BLM is a racist ideology but that is not policy I speak of. I approach policy here from an assumption or reality that blacks and the white working class are currently, on average, the most marginalized groups (even the Illegals fare better but I do not have the data to prove it yet). The policy approach I propose has a time-dimension and a thematic dimension. On the time and thematic dimensions that is where education is key, but empowering and providing quality education to black youth is a long term endeavour ... it does not happen overnight. But is the key to breaking the inter-generational poverty trap. It also requires that over time the economy is growing and generating all kinds of jobs, and over time the government is providing quality social services (health) that build on the stronger economic foundation, as well as the expand public infrastructure investments that draw in private investments. At the same time for immediate relief there will still be need for food stamps, cheap, subsidized housing, childcare benefits that keep people above a certain threshold. But these need to be designed to incentive people to break the poverty trap rather than head down the vicious spiral.
7. Climate change - It needs to be addressed just in the same way as if an on coming ice age, or warming or extreme variability would come, and the country is not ready for it or ready to address it. Here I mean much more on the adaptation and disaster risk reduction side (floods, droughts, typhoons, huricanes, tornadoes) of things rather than green energy upfront per se. Investments in more variability and disaster reduction infrastructure that simultaneously generates short-term public jobs.
8. Politics - I think our government is more corrupt than we give them credit for. I think 90% are out for themselves and have no problem lying about anything or anyone. I think there is a need for a rethink in terms of legislation and policies that bring accountability and performance expectations from politicians. A policy approach could be the creation of a citizens body that has the mandate and teeth to hold certain institutions accountable. Congress often is not in a place to do so or are too entrenched, and hence the good politicians are either corrupted or become cynical.
... By policy I mean both the formal statement of intent by which what is not included in that policy is an unstated part of policy. So for national insurance my policy could be we will provide free education, health, cheap food and housing. But my policy says nothing about employment insurance, which by its very nature is part of my unstated policy. Here goes, and please tear the ideas apart.1. Immigration - I do not support open borders and illegal immigrants and for that matter sanctuary cities, and the use of public assistance for people that don't even have the right to be here. I am not selfish, I know the law is that immirgation and refugee entry is not a right but a priviedge. Now this begs the question do I want to stop immigration? No. Rather like in many of my views below it should be about the rule of law, e.g., it should be legal, assimilative to a overall values, and integrated with the overall society, and not a cause of national security.
2. Refugees - is related to above about legality but also the values and integration, but most importantly not come at a heavy cost to average Americans to bear the brunt of financing refugees.
3. Military and VA - Needs to be right-sized and appreciated. I do not know much about military policy and strategy so cant offer specific policy prescriptions. However on under-appreciation, the veterans are increasingly homeless with the suicide rate is out of control, the VA is a mess and not many on the left seem to give a shit. They seem to be more worried about some refugee or illegal alien than these men and women. It is a disgrace to me. Another bureaucracy that seriously needs to be rationalized along providing the social and economic services our veterans deserve.
4. International standing - This is controversial but under Obama (unlike Reagan) we are looking like a weak country abroad, especially amongst extremist. No respect at all for all that we do as a nation for other countries. The aide we give and so on, yet we can't say we want to halt the refugee process for 120 days to check on how safe the vetting process is without the (United Nations) voicing a ridiculous opinion?
5. The economy - I propose a return to a mix of Reaganomics and Protectionism (while we restore, rebuild and rejuvenate our industry). Untangling onerous environmental regulations and replacing them with smart regulations based on environment, economic and social criteria that maximizes the triple benefits where available, or helps manage the seeming trade-offs, and are devolved to state and sub-state levels, and where the job of the bloated EPA at the fed level is more of a coordinating role on an enabling legal and policy framework for decisions, and actions to take place locally. Further more, just to unpack federal spending, and argue along the lines of the EPA, a number of government institutions need to be rationalized (not necessarily downsized) which are a cancer on the federal budget and promote inefficiencies and under-achievements (e.g. the department of education), meaning not only are they wasteful and inefficient, they are also ineffective to the point of being undermining. Under Obama, we reached unheard of deficit, inequality, thwarted growth, and while the unemployment numbers are thrown out to show what tremendous progress has been made. I can debunk this along two lines easily, e.g., labour force participation and massive public employment (that bloat the bureaucracy, mask the failure in generating private jobs, and are financed by YOU. The employment statistic mask also how many people are underemployed and unemployed relative to job seekers population growth.
6. Social issues - race relations, education, health and other social protection insurance - BLM is a racist ideology but that is not policy I speak of. I approach policy here from an assumption or reality that blacks and the white working class are currently, on average, the most marginalized groups (even the Illegals fare better but I do not have the data to prove it yet). The policy approach I propose has a time-dimension and a thematic dimension. On the time and thematic dimensions that is where education is key, but empowering and providing quality education to black youth is a long term endeavour ... it does not happen overnight. But is the key to breaking the inter-generational poverty trap. It also requires that over time the economy is growing and generating all kinds of jobs, and over time the government is providing quality social services (health) that build on the stronger economic foundation, as well as the expand public infrastructure investments that draw in private investments. At the same time for immediate relief there will still be need for food stamps, cheap, subsidized housing, childcare benefits that keep people above a certain threshold. But these need to be designed to incentive people to break the poverty trap rather than head down the vicious spiral.
7. Climate change - It needs to be addressed just in the same way as if an on coming ice age, or warming or extreme variability would come, and the country is not ready for it or ready to address it. Here I mean much more on the adaptation and disaster risk reduction side (floods, droughts, typhoons, huricanes, tornadoes) of things rather than green energy upfront per se. Investments in more variability and disaster reduction infrastructure that simultaneously generates short-term public jobs.
8. Politics - I think our government is more corrupt than we give them credit for. I think 90% are out for themselves and have no problem lying about anything or anyone. I think there is a need for a rethink in terms of legislation and policies that bring accountability and performance expectations from politicians. A policy approach could be the creation of a citizens body that has the mandate and teeth to hold certain institutions accountable. Congress often is not in a place to do so or are too entrenched, and hence the good politicians are either corrupted or become cynical.
So I will include myself in the category of folks that didn't understand how Trump could possibly get elected. I admit, just for a moment, that I started to go down the road of declaring everyone who voted for him a racist (ridiculous). However, what I do think about Trump supporters is that they do not at all understand the resistance.
I do agree that some of the attacks are myth or exaggerated. But the problem is that these instances are subsequent to an onslaught of offending rhetoric that is well documented......heck, it's him on audio and video. I know half the country cheers the discarding of political correctness, but a majority of the other half is not going to give him a pass on this. Trump touched the third rail of social decency and it is a deal breaker for many Americans. Waiting for this outrage to dissipate is futile. Again, I have no interest in participating in this so called "resistance". My point is only that Trump will never shake it. He is best served by partnering with congress while he has cooperation from both houses. This way, Trump and Bannon (who have absolutely no trust) are not the face of every initiative.
Here I have fifteen, no, eight policy commandments
1. Immigration - I do not support open borders and illegal immigrants and for that matter sanctuary cities, and the use of public assistance for people that don't even have the right to be here. I am not selfish, I know the law is that immirgation and refugee entry is not a right but a priviedge. Now this begs the question do I want to stop immigration? No. Rather like in many of my views below it should be about the rule of law, e.g., it should be legal, assimilative to a overall values, and integrated with the overall society, and not a cause of national security.
2. Refugees - is related to above about legality but also the values and integration, but most importantly not come at a heavy cost to average Americans to bear the brunt of financing refugees.
3. Military and VA - Needs to be right-sized and appreciated. I do not know much about military policy and strategy so cant offer specific policy prescriptions. However on under-appreciation, the veterans are increasingly homeless with the suicide rate is out of control, the VA is a mess and not many on the left seem to give a shit. They seem to be more worried about some refugee or illegal alien than these men and women. It is a disgrace to me. Another bureaucracy that seriously needs to be rationalized along providing the social and economic services our veterans deserve.
4. International standing - This is controversial but under Obama (unlike Reagan) we are looking like a weak country abroad, especially amongst extremist. No respect at all for all that we do as a nation for other countries. The aide we give and so on, yet we can't say we want to halt the refugee process for 120 days to check on how safe the vetting process is without the (United Nations) voicing a ridiculous opinion?
5. The economy - I propose a return to a mix of Reaganomics and Protectionism (while we restore, rebuild and rejuvenate our industry). Untangling onerous environmental regulations and replacing them with smart regulations based on environment, economic and social criteria that maximizes the triple benefits where available, or helps manage the seeming trade-offs, and are devolved to state and sub-state levels, and where the job of the bloated EPA at the fed level is more of a coordinating role on an enabling legal and policy framework for decisions, and actions to take place locally. Further more, just to unpack federal spending, and argue along the lines of the EPA, a number of government institutions need to be rationalized (not necessarily downsized) which are a cancer on the federal budget and promote inefficiencies and under-achievements (e.g. the department of education), meaning not only are they wasteful and inefficient, they are also ineffective to the point of being undermining. Under Obama, we reached unheard of deficit, inequality, thwarted growth, and while the unemployment numbers are thrown out to show what tremendous progress has been made. I can debunk this along two lines easily, e.g., labour force participation and massive public employment (that bloat the bureaucracy, mask the failure in generating private jobs, and are financed by YOU. The employment statistic mask also how many people are underemployed and unemployed relative to job seekers population growth.
6. Social issues - race relations, education, health and other social protection insurance - BLM is a racist ideology but that is not policy I speak of. I approach policy here from an assumption or reality that blacks and the white working class are currently, on average, the most marginalized groups (even the Illegals fare better but I do not have the data to prove it yet). The policy approach I propose has a time-dimension and a thematic dimension. On the time and thematic dimensions that is where education is key, but empowering and providing quality education to black youth is a long term endeavour ... it does not happen overnight. But is the key to breaking the inter-generational poverty trap. It also requires that over time the economy is growing and generating all kinds of jobs, and over time the government is providing quality social services (health) that build on the stronger economic foundation, as well as the expand public infrastructure investments that draw in private investments. At the same time for immediate relief there will still be need for food stamps, cheap, subsidized housing, childcare benefits that keep people above a certain threshold. But these need to be designed to incentive people to break the poverty trap rather than head down the vicious spiral.
7. Climate change - It needs to be addressed just in the same way as if an on coming ice age, or warming or extreme variability would come, and the country is not ready for it or ready to address it. Here I mean much more on the adaptation and disaster risk reduction side (floods, droughts, typhoons, huricanes, tornadoes) of things rather than green energy upfront per se. Investments in more variability and disaster reduction infrastructure that simultaneously generates short-term public jobs.
8. Politics - I think our government is more corrupt than we give them credit for. I think 90% are out for themselves and have no problem lying about anything or anyone. I think there is a need for a rethink in terms of legislation and policies that bring accountability and performance expectations from politicians. A policy approach could be the creation of a citizens body that has the mandate and teeth to hold certain institutions accountable. Congress often is not in a place to do so or are too entrenched, and hence the good politicians are either corrupted or become cynical.
Ez.....I appreciate your time and thoughtfulness. Honestly, you lost me a little in the introduction so I wasn't entirely clear on how to interpret policy "commandments", although I believe these are each meant as a framework for policy. That said, for me, this goes back to Beasts' assertion that there are certain things that all Americans should agree upon. The commandments read a little like a state of the union address, where the framework is agreeable, but much detail would need to follow. My apologies if I am simply re-explaining exactly what you had intended.
This has me thinking. How much more productive might Trump be if he wasn't such a tool? Seriously, a guy like Mike Pence could probably lead the same exact policies with half the opposition and blunder. I don't agree with Mike Pence's politics. But, I am confident he would not have rushed that immigration order and he likely would have been smart enough not to choose a cabinet perceived as a F-You to half the country. Yes, if Trump was not such a tool, you might have conservative policy roaring down the tracks right now. But, unfortunately, we are going to be stuck in a divisive pattern for a while.
My bad JF, its a line from Mel Brooks History of the World Part 1, the scene being Moses coming down from the mountain with 15 commandments and as he starts announcing 15, he drops and breaks one stone tablet... and quickly adjusts to say 10 commandments. Was trying to make light of things
Also on the issue of Trump being a tool, i agree, but this IMHO was a deliberate strategy played by Tea Party ... could pence, bannon, gowdy, pompeo have beaten HRC? No way. Im saying the Tea Party is third party politics in US and is fundamentally different from both established dems and republicans. I feel they saw in Trump the winning horse played through a careful elec college strategy. Now to make fundamental anti establishment changes happen they have a tool with such tough skin to take the avalanche of abalanches, which as you suggest will continue. Maybe im analyzing this too much or inaccurately but just the coup pulled by the Tea Party deserves admiration. Just my thoughts
Yes, totally agree. Trump is an outstanding vehicle (knowingly or unknowingly) for the Tea Party. To further the vehicle analogy, campaigning and governing represents completely different terrain. The Trump vehicle may not be as effective on this new terrain.
If I was advising a coach on how to dismantle St. John's (which I wouldn't do) I would suggest pounding us inside. If I was to advise this administration on how to be more productive (which I wouldn't do), I would suggest working with a friendly (for now) congress and stop stepping on your message with political follies and unproductive claims that devalue your own presidency (i.e. voter fraud, media is the enemy). Every time he says something controversial or stupid, the very congressmen who stand ready to support his policy have to go on camera and muster an excuse for him. There is a shelf life on such a circus show.
I agree. The longer he keeps up the idiotic nonsense then that's going to take away from his ability to effectively carry out reform because the thing with the tea party who whoever holds the most influence with them is they dont carry the 52 republican votes in the senate and the more iditoic things he says he will only embolden the repubs who are establishment to oppose him on things to appeal to voters for their own reelection.
As I've said before I think a lot of his bombastic initial positions are on purpose with the intention of negotaiting down to something relatively close to the middle. But he needs to cut some of this other crap out.
Now that being said I'm just going to say this ( and in no way do I hold Trump accountable at all for this ) but for republicans to have been whining about Obamacare for years literally years and for them not to have their own plan basically ready from day 1 even if it's a main framework that can be modified from there but it's an absolute disgrace and typical of the do nothings in congress who I've hated for so long.
I dont want to see any repealing of it unless you are replacing it with something else that same freaking day and I'm fine with just fixing it. But there shouldnt even be debating on how to set it up right now. he whole thing should have been put forth to the president the 1st week and let's see if Trump had something different ( which I dont think he did but I dont care much about that on his end because I wasnt expecting him to have something ready on his own so quickly regardless of that he said )
Obama described himself on national television as bowling as well as a special Olympian. Obama - who Harry Reid said was an attractive candidate because he was "light-skinned ... with no Negro dialect" and who Joe Biden called "clean and articulate" - called his grandmother a "typical white person." Obama described bitter ignorant Christians as clinging to their religion. Obama slowed immigration from Iraq in the wake of terrorist threats. Obama spent his entire presidency railing against the one media outlet in the world that did not fawn over him, going to far as to have the justice department investigate reporter James Rosen. When Mitt Romney called Russia the greatest geopolitical threat to the US the left fell over laughing when Obama told him the 80s called and wanted their foreign policy back, remember that, and now the left - the same left that preached moral equivalence between the capitalism and Stalinism - is all aghast about alleged communications between Trump and Putin. Whereas we know for a fact that Ted Kennedy made overtures to the KGB for help in defeating Ronald Reagan in the 1984 election.
The umbrage that the left - the "resistance," what buffoonery - takes at Trump is just another variation on the sanctimonious holier than thou pretension that's the hallmark of leftwing politicking: they are moral, so what they do is good, and anyone who disagrees with them is evil, so what they do is bad. Even if it's the same thing. That's why "elections have consequences," except when they lose.
Spocky Ramone
Well-known member
This post is the equivalent of sunlight hitting a disco ball in a room full of vampires
Spocky Ramone
Well-known member
And don't leave out soccer mom favorite Slick Willie who said Senator Obama "would have been getting us coffee a few years ago"
No but this is completely original (and I dont give a f**k what Jack Nicholson says:
Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines.
You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know, that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives!
You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like "honor", "code", "loyalty". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you", and went on your way.
Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!
Spocky Ramone
Well-known member
Borrowing a visual from "From Dusk 'til Dawn"
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