Next year

112 your summation is one of the more fair and complete I have seen. The Norm's Kids argument doesn't hold a lot of water because Lavin/Dunlap used those kids in a way Norm didn't show himself capable of doing in his 6 years here (Hardy/Brownlee were our two best players - Norm brought them off the bench, Lavin/Dunlap used them like our two best players). That being said, it was a decent situation to walk into for that one year (veteran team with some talent that was willing to be coached up). The problem is beyond that year Lavin was left with nothing, needing to build from scratch, so I agree with you on some expecting too quick of a turnaround (myself included). It's a tall order.

That said, after three years it is what you said it is: the overall talent level has improved at an impressive rate that I doubt many other coaches in America could have matched; the play on the court has certainly not improved at the same rate, has likely plateued, and has arguably regressed. There are reasons for that, but it is not a comforting trend nonetheless. Improving the talent level isn't enough, at some point it has to transfer to better play on the court. We aren't seeing that yet on any sort of consistent basis. Next year his first full recruiting class will be Juniors. Need to start at least seeing better play, if not results.

This is close, but I don't agree on all points. Like others, I've held my fire for a few years, but I think there's enough of a sample now to make some observations.

Year 1 was a good situation for Lavin to come into. He had a team full of seniors and he knew he would have a blank slate to work with the following year and to do what he does best, which is recruit.

However, there was no "coaching up" in Year 1. He handed the ball to Hardy and let him be the show. He got a pass for that (with me, anyway) because (1) it worked, mostly and (2) I could see not bothering to implement a system with a dozen players who would all be gone.

Year 2 was a non-Lavin year, so there's not much to say about it.

Year 3 is troubling in many ways. The Year 3 offensive approach is the same as Year 1, which is to say that there isn't one. After two years the zone is still totally ineffective. And if your offensive "strategy" is to create turnovers and score in the open court, then playing zone makes no sense anyway. The only common element I can find between the defensive and offensive "philosophies" is that neither of them requires very much actual coaching. The word "lazy" comes to mind.

Moreover, if your have no real coaching skills and your stock in trade is recruiting talented players and getting them to play for you and to play together, the various transfers and suspensions are a sign that even that isn't working so well for you.

None of this should really be a surprise, as anyone who watched Lavin's UCLA teams saw exactly the same thing - a bunch of talented players without much structure and no discipline from the head coach. You got who you thought you were getting here - a recruiter who is a frankly terrible tactician and is willing to mostly let the inmates run the asylum. Looked at another way, the anti-Bob Knight.

Having said all of that, if everyone returns then this is easily a Sweet 16 team next year - despite the deficiencies. If you look at it objectively, going into the Pitt game you had a team with either no center or a developmental center (depending on whether Obekpa played), no other big men to speak of (a staff miscalculation), no true point guard for much of the season, and a roster with zero upperclassmen ... yet was still in contention for the NCAA tournament.

If everyone returns, then next year you will have a stacked frontcourt, an extra shooter, a full year of Branch, and a bunch of upperclassmen. With that roster, you should be a top 2 or 3 team in the new Big East, win 22-24 games, get a decent seed in the NCAAs, and make a run.

Lavin is who he is, and that's who he's always going to be. And even with all he does wrong, he will still bring in enough talent to be competitive every year. It wouldn't surprise me if he makes the NCAAs every year for 8 years from next year onward, and makes a couple of deep runs based on player talent alone.

It's just not going to be pretty to watch if you like basketball as a sport (as opposed to as an athletic sideshow) and you will have these periodic eruptions of nonsense.

Hopefully he will find someone equivalent to Dunlap to do the things he can't or won't do, which would hopefully minimize some of those issues.

Great post

The only thing I disagree w/ you on is I have a hard time believing that a backcourt of Branch and Greene can ever get you to the Sweet 16. If you don't have guards who can consistently knock down a mid range jumper, it's going to be hard to win 2 games in the NCAA Tournament. That's why I'm really hoping that Lavin can pull a rabbit out of his hat in terms of recruiting.
 
TIS, we'll see. I don't believe in the notion that a team has your number...that stuff changes as soon as you play well. We were missing Branch in the 2nd DePaul game, short handed vs. PC (Dlo, Branch not at full speed, missing suze tbat we'll have next year) and although I agree that Xavier tends to be good, they are only a decent A10 team this year.

I agree, we'll see. To post who we're not gonna sweep (or, who we will sweep) MONTHS away from playing any of those teams is nonsense. To absolutely post it, this far away, is even worse.

We don't know the makeup or who'll be playing for the respective teams. Things can change, and probably will look differently by that time.

Exactly, we dont even know if our leading scorer is returning

Maybe he was YOUR leading scorer but in the Big East games this year he bombed on a nuclear level!
For some of you not into numbers, Harrison averaged around .25% shooting in Big East games. His defense, and overall game IQ, were even lower......if it were quantifiable.
Your leading scorer could not hit the barn door in his last SIX games. Here is a sample: 0-9 (Gtown), 3-12 (Uconn), 4-13 (USF), 1-12 (Pitt).
BTW, our 3rd scoring option, Phil (I like to dribble aimlessly) Greene was just as bad!
One thing we do know......our front court players will be the best in the Big East next year with Sanchez, Sampson, Gift and Obekpa. Lavin better learn how to get those 4 the ball. The backcourt with a healthy Branch and Jordan (there I said it) instead of Harrison will be excellent in the new league.
No Uconn, no Louisville, no Cincy will make things easier for Lavin but he better win 20 games in the Big East or else.
 
TIS, we'll see. I don't believe in the notion that a team has your number...that stuff changes as soon as you play well. We were missing Branch in the 2nd DePaul game, short handed vs. PC (Dlo, Branch not at full speed, missing suze tbat we'll have next year) and although I agree that Xavier tends to be good, they are only a decent A10 team this year.

I agree, we'll see. To post who we're not gonna sweep (or, who we will sweep) MONTHS away from playing any of those teams is nonsense. To absolutely post it, this far away, is even worse.

We don't know the makeup or who'll be playing for the respective teams. Things can change, and probably will look differently by that time.

Exactly, we dont even know if our leading scorer is returning

Maybe he was YOUR leading scorer but in the Big East games this year he bombed on a nuclear level!
For some of you not into numbers, Harrison averaged around .25% shooting in Big East games. His defense, and overall game IQ, were even lower......if it were quantifiable.
Your leading scorer could not hit the barn door in his last SIX games. Here is a sample: 0-9 (Gtown), 3-12 (Uconn), 4-13 (USF), 1-12 (Pitt).
BTW, our 3rd scoring option, Phil (I like to dribble aimlessly) Greene was just as bad!
One thing we do know......our front court players will be the best in the Big East next year with Sanchez, Sampson, Gift and Obekpa. Lavin better learn how to get those 4 the ball. The backcourt with a healthy Branch and Jordan (there I said it) instead of Harrison will be excellent in the new league.
No Uconn, no Louisville, no Cincy will make things easier for Lavin but he better win 20 games in the Big East or else.

If we get Jordan I will be fine with Harrison not returning but face it 72 if we do not get Rysheed our guard play is weak and we need Harrison. Whether you like the guy or not he has put up 1,000 points in a SJ uniform and we need him back.
 
TIS, we'll see. I don't believe in the notion that a team has your number...that stuff changes as soon as you play well. We were missing Branch in the 2nd DePaul game, short handed vs. PC (Dlo, Branch not at full speed, missing suze tbat we'll have next year) and although I agree that Xavier tends to be good, they are only a decent A10 team this year.

I agree, we'll see. To post who we're not gonna sweep (or, who we will sweep) MONTHS away from playing any of those teams is nonsense. To absolutely post it, this far away, is even worse.

We don't know the makeup or who'll be playing for the respective teams. Things can change, and probably will look differently by that time.

Exactly, we dont even know if our leading scorer is returning

Maybe he was YOUR leading scorer but in the Big East games this year he bombed on a nuclear level!
For some of you not into numbers, Harrison averaged around .25% shooting in Big East games. His defense, and overall game IQ, were even lower......if it were quantifiable.
Your leading scorer could not hit the barn door in his last SIX games. Here is a sample: 0-9 (Gtown), 3-12 (Uconn), 4-13 (USF), 1-12 (Pitt).
BTW, our 3rd scoring option, Phil (I like to dribble aimlessly) Greene was just as bad!
One thing we do know......our front court players will be the best in the Big East next year with Sanchez, Sampson, Gift and Obekpa. Lavin better learn how to get those 4 the ball. The backcourt with a healthy Branch and Jordan (there I said it) instead of Harrison will be excellent in the new league.
No Uconn, no Louisville, no Cincy will make things easier for Lavin but he better win 20 games in the Big East or else.

If we get Jordan I will be fine with Harrison not returning but face it 72 if we do not get Rysheed our guard play is weak and we need Harrison. Whether you like the guy or not he has put up 1,000 points in a SJ uniform and we need him back.

Jordan would fit in perfectly with Lavin bail out ball. No plays needed. If Marco is upset with the lack of shots he gets now, I'm sure he'd be thrilled with adding Jordan.
 
@AdamZagoria: #stjbb expects @KarrSampson14 to return next season& D'Angelo Harrison intends to return after meeting w/ @STJCoachLavin,source tells @SNYtv
 
TIS, we'll see. I don't believe in the notion that a team has your number...that stuff changes as soon as you play well. We were missing Branch in the 2nd DePaul game, short handed vs. PC (Dlo, Branch not at full speed, missing suze tbat we'll have next year) and although I agree that Xavier tends to be good, they are only a decent A10 team this year.

I agree, we'll see. To post who we're not gonna sweep (or, who we will sweep) MONTHS away from playing any of those teams is nonsense. To absolutely post it, this far away, is even worse.

We don't know the makeup or who'll be playing for the respective teams. Things can change, and probably will look differently by that time.

Exactly, we dont even know if our leading scorer is returning

Maybe he was YOUR leading scorer but in the Big East games this year he bombed on a nuclear level!
For some of you not into numbers, Harrison averaged around .25% shooting in Big East games. His defense, and overall game IQ, were even lower......if it were quantifiable.
Your leading scorer could not hit the barn door in his last SIX games. Here is a sample: 0-9 (Gtown), 3-12 (Uconn), 4-13 (USF), 1-12 (Pitt).
BTW, our 3rd scoring option, Phil (I like to dribble aimlessly) Greene was just as bad!
One thing we do know......our front court players will be the best in the Big East next year with Sanchez, Sampson, Gift and Obekpa. Lavin better learn how to get those 4 the ball. The backcourt with a healthy Branch and Jordan (there I said it) instead of Harrison will be excellent in the new league.
No Uconn, no Louisville, no Cincy will make things easier for Lavin but he better win 20 games in the Big East or else.


72', let's not forget Harrison had no help from Lavin. Where were the screens? Oh I forgot he had Obekpa set picks close to halfcourt.
 
Admittedly DLO was off at the end of the year, but a focused DLO ,Sampson ,Sanchez,improved CO, and DOM are getting me excited for next year,if we can somehow get Jorden,we should be able to advance in the tourny.
 
@AdamZagoria: #stjbb expects @KarrSampson14 to return next season& D'Angelo Harrison intends to return after meeting w/ @STJCoachLavin,source tells @SNYtv

Anybody else reading into this like I am?

I expected this to happen around 4/16, not this early.
 
@AdamZagoria: #stjbb expects @KarrSampson14 to return next season& D'Angelo Harrison intends to return after meeting w/ @STJCoachLavin,source tells @SNYtv

Anybody else reading into this like I am?

I expected this to happen around 4/16, not this early.

?????
 
@AdamZagoria: #stjbb expects @KarrSampson14 to return next season& D'Angelo Harrison intends to return after meeting w/ @STJCoachLavin,source tells @SNYtv

Anybody else reading into this like I am?

I expected this to happen around 4/16, not this early.

This lets anybody who is considering St. Johns know who they can expect to feed the ball to.
 
@AdamZagoria: #stjbb expects @KarrSampson14 to return next season& D'Angelo Harrison intends to return after meeting w/ @STJCoachLavin,source tells @SNYtv

Anybody else reading into this like I am?

I expected this to happen around 4/16, not this early.

?????

-# of ships we have left
-Rysheed Jordan named Daily News POY hours ago
-Sources say D'Angelo met with Lavin and will be back next year

Not hard to piece it together.

And I know this post will be met with tons of flack.
 
I tried starting a thread about next year but I got this "you don`t have permission to access this site", guess I`m not cool enough like you cool people on here to start my own thread.
So I`ll post it here if it doesn`t get deleted.

`m a believer that next year is a big season for lavin.

Sanchez (I believe him and Sampson will be our 2 best players next year), GG (thinking he`ll be a beast), and Bourgault (hoping in his 2nd and last year that he`ll learn from this year and hit those 3 balls like kerr and paxson.)
Will all be seniors.
Sampson I believe will be back next year to make a run at a NCAA title, yeah I said it. Start Obekpa (hoping he can get some offensive skills next year), Sampson (should improve on a impressive freshmen year), Sanchez (would have been our best player this year, Branch, and Harrison (could be key if he can learn to enjoy the game instead of beating himself up.)
With Pointer, Garrett, Green, GG, Bourgault, and Hooper off the bench
If Jordan wants in then maybe we could get Jones or Balamou to transfer.

Could be a special year.

They have to atleast make some what of a run next year and some top recruits take notice and would want to come seeing that lavin and SJU is making noise. If they don`t then in 2 years those seniors are gone. Sampson would most likely be gone. No top recruit coming in so in 2 years they`d be like this year again, would be another 3 years before they`d do something.

Does anyone agree with me on this or am I over reacting? I mean if not next year then when?
I`m being serious, not joking.
I never got the idea Harrison was beating himself up. I got the idea he was thinking he was to good for us. If he returns I think it would help if he was satisfied being a part of this team.
 
@AdamZagoria: #stjbb expects @KarrSampson14 to return next season& D'Angelo Harrison intends to return after meeting w/ @STJCoachLavin,source tells @SNYtv

Anybody else reading into this like I am?

I expected this to happen around 4/16, not this early.

?????

-# of ships we have left
-Rysheed Jordan named Daily News POY hours ago
-Sources say D'Angelo met with Lavin and will be back next year

Not hard to piece it together.

And I know this post will be met with tons of flack.

Why would it be met with any flak? What are your theories for the tweet coming out?
 
I was not looking to flame the board.I kept quiet for 3 seasons.I dont give lavin a pass for last season, his coaches were coaching, his recruits were playing.There is no pass for that.Its all about accountability.There is NOT one good shooter on this team.There is 0 chance this team makes the dance next season nevermind the sweet 16..There are no shooters.without shooters, the zone is packed in, and the big guys have no space, and can't score.I have no idea why we set those picks at the top of the key with our big guys, and they dont even roll to the rim.This lets the other teams big guy play the other side of the pick, which forces our guards to just run parralel to the half court line.

We have a bunch of excellent athletes, they can all run, jump, block shots..but that alone does not win..unfortunately for us you have to put the ball in the basket..and this team cannot do that..3 seasons a top coach should of had this program back on top..NC state is back...Norm left this program in better shape then when he got here(and I was a norm hater).The big east is horrible this season, compared to years past.I dont want to see Lavin fired, as he will bring the occassional stud in..But the days of Fran, and Louie are done....
I think Norm left Steve in very rough shape. Had Norm been left in place he would have won a few games with the players he left Steve and we go back to being a 4-5-6 win BE team. If Steve were leaving this team for a new coach it might be said he left the new guy in ok shape. A green team can really use a top point guard. I feel thats the piece Steve missed on that could have made us a lot better. Your idea that a top coach should have this program back on top tells me you would be dissatisfied with a ton of HOF coaches.
 
@AdamZagoria: #stjbb expects @KarrSampson14 to return next season& D'Angelo Harrison intends to return after meeting w/ @STJCoachLavin,source tells @SNYtv

Anybody else reading into this like I am?

I expected this to happen around 4/16, not this early.

?????

-# of ships we have left
-Rysheed Jordan named Daily News POY hours ago
-Sources say D'Angelo met with Lavin and will be back next year

Not hard to piece it together.

And I know this post will be met with tons of flack.

Why would it be met with any flak? What are your theories for the tweet coming out?
I think he believes Jorden is not coming here and 4/15 that fact would have been confirmed.
 
@AdamZagoria: #stjbb expects @KarrSampson14 to return next season& D'Angelo Harrison intends to return after meeting w/ @STJCoachLavin,source tells @SNYtv

Anybody else reading into this like I am?

I expected this to happen around 4/16, not this early.

?????

-# of ships we have left
-Rysheed Jordan named Daily News POY hours ago
-Sources say D'Angelo met with Lavin and will be back next year

Not hard to piece it together.

And I know this post will be met with tons of flack.

Why would it be met with any flak? What are your theories for the tweet coming out?
I think he believes Jorden is not coming here and 4/15 that fact would have been confirmed.

That's possible. I, pretty much had a feeling what he thought. Just wanted him to expound on it.

IMO, it sounds like he was just tweeting info after the season about two players who are critical to our plans going forward. Coaches meet with their players once the season ends, and he was just confirming Sampson wouldn't be turning pro, and he expects Harrison back after meeting with his players after the season.

The fan base were wondering about those two players, so the info was put out there to take away any questions the fans might've had about them.
 
@AdamZagoria: #stjbb expects @KarrSampson14 to return next season& D'Angelo Harrison intends to return after meeting w/ @STJCoachLavin,source tells @SNYtv

Anybody else reading into this like I am?

I expected this to happen around 4/16, not this early.

?????

-# of ships we have left
-Rysheed Jordan named Daily News POY hours ago
-Sources say D'Angelo met with Lavin and will be back next year

Not hard to piece it together.

And I know this post will be met with tons of flack.

Why would it be met with any flak? What are your theories for the tweet coming out?
I think he believes Jorden is not coming here and 4/15 that fact would have been confirmed.

That's possible. I, pretty much had a feeling what he thought. Just wanted him to expound on it.

IMO, it sounds like he was just tweeting info after the season about two players who are critical to our plans going forward. Coaches meet with their players once the season ends, and he was just confirming Sampson wouldn't be turning pro, and he expects Harrison back after meeting with his players after the season.

The fan base were wondering about those two players, so the info was put out there to take away any questions the fans might've had about them.

steinfeld's response is what I was getting at.

D'Angelo coming back locks up our ships for '13 (barring someone transferring out or being asked to leave).

Didn't Lavin say when he suspended D'Angelo indefinitely that he would have to work his way back in the Spring/Summer. If that was the case, then why are we hearing about this so early?

Wouldn't you want to protect that one precious ship until after Jordan's announcement day on 4/15.

Unless of course he was getting bad vibes on the recruiting trail.

But a doom & gloomier like me is just reaching though ;)
 
@AdamZagoria: #stjbb expects @KarrSampson14 to return next season& D'Angelo Harrison intends to return after meeting w/ @STJCoachLavin,source tells @SNYtv

Anybody else reading into this like I am?

I expected this to happen around 4/16, not this early.

?????

-# of ships we have left
-Rysheed Jordan named Daily News POY hours ago
-Sources say D'Angelo met with Lavin and will be back next year

Not hard to piece it together.

And I know this post will be met with tons of flack.

Why would it be met with any flak? What are your theories for the tweet coming out?
I think he believes Jorden is not coming here and 4/15 that fact would have been confirmed.

That's possible. I, pretty much had a feeling what he thought. Just wanted him to expound on it.

IMO, it sounds like he was just tweeting info after the season about two players who are critical to our plans going forward. Coaches meet with their players once the season ends, and he was just confirming Sampson wouldn't be turning pro, and he expects Harrison back after meeting with his players after the season.

The fan base were wondering about those two players, so the info was put out there to take away any questions the fans might've had about them.

steinfeld's response is what I was getting at.

D'Angelo coming back locks up our ships for '13 (barring someone transferring out or being asked to leave).

Didn't Lavin say when he suspended D'Angelo indefinitely that he would have to work his way back in the Spring/Summer. If that was the case, then why are we hearing about this so early?

Wouldn't you want to protect that one precious ship until after Jordan's announcement day on 4/15.

Unless of course he was getting bad vibes on the recruiting trail.

But a doom & gloomier like me is just reaching though ;)

I'm guessing he met with Harrison, as well, when he met with the players after the season. Maybe, they had a serious heart-to-heart, and came to a sound agreement prior to the spring or summer (technically, it is spring, lol).

The scholarship for Jordan is still there. It isn't reflective on whether Harrison returned or not.
 
I kept my mouth or in this case fingers quiet for three seasons of Lavin..Dont get me wrong I dont think we have had a better recruiter since Fran. But I cannot understand the offense he is trying to run..Very basic stuff is missing..When the basic stuff is missing, you better have some great shooters...This team this season and next will not have great shooters..We have athletes who cannot shoot straight...Next season will be just the same as this season..If Sanchez was the next coming, he would just go pro..There is a reason he will play next season....I understand Harrisons anger with the assistant coaches, What exactly are we trying to do? I dont think he handled it well, but I understand..The best season lavin has had here was with Norms kids, and that is hard to swallow..Great programs expect kids to go pro, tired of hearing Harkless leaving hurt us...All the great programs lose kids to the nba..If there is one thing that will give me any sense of belief in this program being any better than under Norm, will be putting in an offense..Not dribble, dribble, chuck a brick..This team will be the same next season, maybe worse as the other teams in a very, very weak ncaa field this season will be better next season..

I don't neccessarily disagree with you but rather your post triggered a thought I had watching the knicks last night. They were up 28 at the half and shot loghts out moving the ball beautifully, looked like a championship team. Second half!!!!! "Dribble. dribble chuck a brick"....dribble, dribble, turnover. Looked like SJU at its worst, No point except that it struck me that here is a good pro team playing Jekyll and Hyde ball.
 
Back
Top