Next year

I kept my mouth or in this case fingers quiet for three seasons of Lavin..Dont get me wrong I dont think we have had a better recruiter since Fran. But I cannot understand the offense he is trying to run..Very basic stuff is missing..When the basic stuff is missing, you better have some great shooters...This team this season and next will not have great shooters..We have athletes who cannot shoot straight...Next season will be just the same as this season..If Sanchez was the next coming, he would just go pro..There is a reason he will play next season....I understand Harrisons anger with the assistant coaches, What exactly are we trying to do? I dont think he handled it well, but I understand..The best season lavin has had here was with Norms kids, and that is hard to swallow..Great programs expect kids to go pro, tired of hearing Harkless leaving hurt us...All the great programs lose kids to the nba..If there is one thing that will give me any sense of belief in this program being any better than under Norm, will be putting in an offense..Not dribble, dribble, chuck a brick..This team will be the same next season, maybe worse as the other teams in a very, very weak ncaa field this season will be better next season..

Very fair points. While I agree with some, I will say that some of us were hoping for too quick of a turnaround. Our program was in shambles of sorts when Lavin took over. To think he'd come in an immediately be getting top recruits to a program that was at the bottom of the Big East was just not realistic. It's a slow process. Now are we on the right track? We are definitely getting better talent than we've had. My main concern is what I'm seeing on the court. Not sure if it's Lavin's coaching or not, but the offensive sets are atrocious, and our zone has more holes than Swiss cheese.

112 your summation is one of the more fair and complete I have seen. The Norm's Kids argument doesn't hold a lot of water because Lavin/Dunlap used those kids in a way Norm didn't show himself capable of doing in his 6 years here (Hardy/Brownlee were our two best players - Norm brought them off the bench, Lavin/Dunlap used them like our two best players). That being said, it was a decent situation to walk into for that one year (veteran team with some talent that was willing to be coached up). The problem is beyond that year Lavin was left with nothing, needing to build from scratch, so I agree with you on some expecting too quick of a turnaround (myself included). It's a tall order.

That said, after three years it is what you said it is: the overall talent level has improved at an impressive rate that I doubt many other coaches in America could have matched; the play on the court has certainly not improved at the same rate, has likely plateued, and has arguably regressed. There are reasons for that, but it is not a comforting trend nonetheless. Improving the talent level isn't enough, at some point it has to transfer to better play on the court. We aren't seeing that yet on any sort of consistent basis. Next year his first full recruiting class will be Juniors. Need to start at least seeing better play, if not results.
 
112 your summation is one of the more fair and complete I have seen. The Norm's Kids argument doesn't hold a lot of water because Lavin/Dunlap used those kids in a way Norm didn't show himself capable of doing in his 6 years here (Hardy/Brownlee were our two best players - Norm brought them off the bench, Lavin/Dunlap used them like our two best players). That being said, it was a decent situation to walk into for that one year (veteran team with some talent that was willing to be coached up). The problem is beyond that year Lavin was left with nothing, needing to build from scratch, so I agree with you on some expecting too quick of a turnaround (myself included). It's a tall order.

That said, after three years it is what you said it is: the overall talent level has improved at an impressive rate that I doubt many other coaches in America could have matched; the play on the court has certainly not improved at the same rate, has likely plateued, and has arguably regressed. There are reasons for that, but it is not a comforting trend nonetheless. Improving the talent level isn't enough, at some point it has to transfer to better play on the court. We aren't seeing that yet on any sort of consistent basis. Next year his first full recruiting class will be Juniors. Need to start at least seeing better play, if not results.

This is close, but I don't agree on all points. Like others, I've held my fire for a few years, but I think there's enough of a sample now to make some observations.

Year 1 was a good situation for Lavin to come into. He had a team full of seniors and he knew he would have a blank slate to work with the following year and to do what he does best, which is recruit.

However, there was no "coaching up" in Year 1. He handed the ball to Hardy and let him be the show. He got a pass for that (with me, anyway) because (1) it worked, mostly and (2) I could see not bothering to implement a system with a dozen players who would all be gone.

Year 2 was a non-Lavin year, so there's not much to say about it.

Year 3 is troubling in many ways. The Year 3 offensive approach is the same as Year 1, which is to say that there isn't one. After two years the zone is still totally ineffective. And if your offensive "strategy" is to create turnovers and score in the open court, then playing zone makes no sense anyway. The only common element I can find between the defensive and offensive "philosophies" is that neither of them requires very much actual coaching. The word "lazy" comes to mind.

Moreover, if your have no real coaching skills and your stock in trade is recruiting talented players and getting them to play for you and to play together, the various transfers and suspensions are a sign that even that isn't working so well for you.

None of this should really be a surprise, as anyone who watched Lavin's UCLA teams saw exactly the same thing - a bunch of talented players without much structure and no discipline from the head coach. You got who you thought you were getting here - a recruiter who is a frankly terrible tactician and is willing to mostly let the inmates run the asylum. Looked at another way, the anti-Bob Knight.

Having said all of that, if everyone returns then this is easily a Sweet 16 team next year - despite the deficiencies. If you look at it objectively, going into the Pitt game you had a team with either no center or a developmental center (depending on whether Obekpa played), no other big men to speak of (a staff miscalculation), no true point guard for much of the season, and a roster with zero upperclassmen ... yet was still in contention for the NCAA tournament.

If everyone returns, then next year you will have a stacked frontcourt, an extra shooter, a full year of Branch, and a bunch of upperclassmen. With that roster, you should be a top 2 or 3 team in the new Big East, win 22-24 games, get a decent seed in the NCAAs, and make a run.

Lavin is who he is, and that's who he's always going to be. And even with all he does wrong, he will still bring in enough talent to be competitive every year. It wouldn't surprise me if he makes the NCAAs every year for 8 years from next year onward, and makes a couple of deep runs based on player talent alone.

It's just not going to be pretty to watch if you like basketball as a sport (as opposed to as an athletic sideshow) and you will have these periodic eruptions of nonsense.

Hopefully he will find someone equivalent to Dunlap to do the things he can't or won't do, which would hopefully minimize some of those issues.
 
What if Dunlap were coaching this year, would we be a tournament team?

Not if he alone was the coach. Charlotte has 5 move wins in 60 games than they did last year. Maybe in tandem with Lavin,
I don't know but he has not been a rousing success. The latest road trip resulted in a 26 ppg average loss. Ouch!
 
Didnt Norm leave Ron Roberts? Guy is averaging nearly a double double for St Joes shooting well over 50%. Didnt he also leave Lavin a PG recruit that he let go? Were still looking for a PG. I'm not looking to oust Lavin or anything like that but I'd be lying if I said I was happy with the job he's doing.
 
Having said all of that, if everyone returns then this is easily a Sweet 16 team next year.

Easily?? I'll take that bet... you are somehow hoping for a HUGE improvement from this year to next with barely any personnel change... adding a transfer from Harvard and a defensive PF is not going to lift this team to be exponentially better next year, perhaps a couple of games but that's it...

We haven't advanced past the first round of the tournament in close to 15 years and have made the tournament just twice since then. Also the "if" is huge.... I am really doubting that everyone will be back next year, but we'll see...

This team has a huge problem that is not something you can teach or improve on in the off season; they lack natural scorers / shooters and that IMO is a God-given gift... (Phil Greene will never be the scorer he tries to be, sorry Phil...)

Cold streaks like last night, 15 points in a half, should NEVER happen, and can't happen if you have scorers. Until Lavin starts recruiting with the goal of more balance, we will continue to have games like we had last night. Not every player on your team needs to have their dunking ability be the highlight of their resume...
 
Interesting comments by Bob Knight last night about how St. John's doesn't have any idea how to attack the zone. What we do is fastbreak down the court before the zone gets set up. The team looks good when they're running.

He also commented that Obekpa shouldn't be up at the foul line trying to set picks, he should working down low trying to get open. The offense in the second half was not even Big East quality play. Seems like Bray got into his team at healftime about being soft defensively and they sure tightened things up in the second half. St. John's settling for jumpers and rushing the possession helped too.
 
I kept my mouth or in this case fingers quiet for three seasons of Lavin..Dont get me wrong I dont think we have had a better recruiter since Fran. But I cannot understand the offense he is trying to run..Very basic stuff is missing..When the basic stuff is missing, you better have some great shooters...This team this season and next will not have great shooters..We have athletes who cannot shoot straight...Next season will be just the same as this season..If Sanchez was the next coming, he would just go pro..There is a reason he will play next season....I understand Harrisons anger with the assistant coaches, What exactly are we trying to do? I dont think he handled it well, but I understand..The best season lavin has had here was with Norms kids, and that is hard to swallow..Great programs expect kids to go pro, tired of hearing Harkless leaving hurt us...All the great programs lose kids to the nba..If there is one thing that will give me any sense of belief in this program being any better than under Norm, will be putting in an offense..Not dribble, dribble, chuck a brick..This team will be the same next season, maybe worse as the other teams in a very, very weak ncaa field this season will be better next season..

Before you get attacked by 90% of this board, or the Lavin sheep, just want to say I totally agree with you.

You should get a small clue before you throw out inane posts with arbitrary numbers just to highlight a point. I guess this is an attack, but not on Tom Bradley's post, but yours pobee10. Tom Bradley made his point in a respectful manner. He didn't go at anyone, just stated his concerns regarding the program going forward. That is all anyone can hope for in the vast world of fan websites, where many are injected with super steroids. You on the other hand tried to be wise guy.

Baaaa, baaaa, baaaa. Carry on.

Would you say the number is more like 95%?

You should become a pollster. You have an uncanny ability to get poll responses incredilby fast.
 
Didnt Norm leave Ron Roberts? Guy is averaging nearly a double double for St Joes shooting well over 50%. Didnt he also leave Lavin a PG recruit that he let go?


.

I'm not even sure if that point guard is playing ymca basketball

Anyone remember his name and where he's at now ? I completely forget the kids name
 
I was not looking to flame the board.I kept quiet for 3 seasons.I dont give lavin a pass for last season, his coaches were coaching, his recruits were playing.There is no pass for that.Its all about accountability.There is NOT one good shooter on this team.There is 0 chance this team makes the dance next season nevermind the sweet 16..There are no shooters.without shooters, the zone is packed in, and the big guys have no space, and can't score.I have no idea why we set those picks at the top of the key with our big guys, and they dont even roll to the rim.This lets the other teams big guy play the other side of the pick, which forces our guards to just run parralel to the half court line.

We have a bunch of excellent athletes, they can all run, jump, block shots..but that alone does not win..unfortunately for us you have to put the ball in the basket..and this team cannot do that..3 seasons a top coach should of had this program back on top..NC state is back...Norm left this program in better shape then when he got here(and I was a norm hater).The big east is horrible this season, compared to years past.I dont want to see Lavin fired, as he will bring the occassional stud in..But the days of Fran, and Louie are done....
 
This is close, but I don't agree on all points. Like others, I've held my fire for a few years, but I think there's enough of a sample now to make some observations.

Year 1 was a good situation for Lavin to come into. He had a team full of seniors and he knew he would have a blank slate to work with the following year and to do what he does best, which is recruit.

However, there was no "coaching up" in Year 1. He handed the ball to Hardy and let him be the show. He got a pass for that (with me, anyway) because (1) it worked, mostly and (2) I could see not bothering to implement a system with a dozen players who would all be gone.

Year 2 was a non-Lavin year, so there's not much to say about it.

Year 3 is troubling in many ways. The Year 3 offensive approach is the same as Year 1, which is to say that there isn't one. After two years the zone is still totally ineffective. And if your offensive "strategy" is to create turnovers and score in the open court, then playing zone makes no sense anyway. The only common element I can find between the defensive and offensive "philosophies" is that neither of them requires very much actual coaching. The word "lazy" comes to mind.

Moreover, if your have no real coaching skills and your stock in trade is recruiting talented players and getting them to play for you and to play together, the various transfers and suspensions are a sign that even that isn't working so well for you.

None of this should really be a surprise, as anyone who watched Lavin's UCLA teams saw exactly the same thing - a bunch of talented players without much structure and no discipline from the head coach. You got who you thought you were getting here - a recruiter who is a frankly terrible tactician and is willing to mostly let the inmates run the asylum. Looked at another way, the anti-Bob Knight.

Having said all of that, if everyone returns then this is easily a Sweet 16 team next year - despite the deficiencies. If you look at it objectively, going into the Pitt game you had a team with either no center or a developmental center (depending on whether Obekpa played), no other big men to speak of (a staff miscalculation), no true point guard for much of the season, and a roster with zero upperclassmen ... yet was still in contention for the NCAA tournament.

If everyone returns, then next year you will have a stacked frontcourt, an extra shooter, a full year of Branch, and a bunch of upperclassmen. With that roster, you should be a top 2 or 3 team in the new Big East, win 22-24 games, get a decent seed in the NCAAs, and make a run.

Lavin is who he is, and that's who he's always going to be. And even with all he does wrong, he will still bring in enough talent to be competitive every year. It wouldn't surprise me if he makes the NCAAs every year for 8 years from next year onward, and makes a couple of deep runs based on player talent alone.

It's just not going to be pretty to watch if you like basketball as a sport (as opposed to as an athletic sideshow) and you will have these periodic eruptions of nonsense.

Hopefully he will find someone equivalent to Dunlap to do the things he can't or won't do, which would hopefully minimize some of those issues.

Agree with your post in so many ways. Lavin isn't a tactician. Next year will the first year he has his own kids as upperclassmen and after that provided the recruiting stays where it is you'll have a more balanced roster each year. While I agree with NYC Showtime that "easily Sweet 16" is a bit of a reach I disagree with his overall assessment. It's a brighter future than this team has had in a long time. You have to take Lavin warts and all and this is what you're going to get.
 
I was not looking to flame the board.I kept quiet for 3 seasons.I dont give lavin a pass for last season, his coaches were coaching, his recruits were playing.There is no pass for that.Its all about accountability.There is NOT one good shooter on this team.There is 0 chance this team makes the dance next season nevermind the sweet 16..There are no shooters.without shooters, the zone is packed in, and the big guys have no space, and can't score.I have no idea why we set those picks at the top of the key with our big guys, and they dont even roll to the rim.This lets the other teams big guy play the other side of the pick, which forces our guards to just run parralel to the half court line.

We have a bunch of excellent athletes, they can all run, jump, block shots..but that alone does not win..unfortunately for us you have to put the ball in the basket..and this team cannot do that..3 seasons a top coach should of had this program back on top..NC state is back...Norm left this program in better shape then when he got here(and I was a norm hater).The big east is horrible this season, compared to years past.I dont want to see Lavin fired, as he will bring the occassional stud in..But the days of Fran, and Louie are done....

Disagree about shooters. There are players on the team who could shoot, if anything was ever run for them to get a good look. But the way our offense is run if you cannot create for yourself you're screwed.

You're completely right about the pick-no-roll. It's mind-boggling.

Also agree it's a down year for the Artist Formerly Known as the Big East. Louisville, Syracuse, and Georgetown are good. Throw in Marquette if you want. Everybody else stinks.
 
I was not looking to flame the board.I kept quiet for 3 seasons.


Dont worry. With 2 posts so far I dont think anyone is going to accuse you of flaming. You're on thin ice but not flaming. lol
 
112 your summation is one of the more fair and complete I have seen. The Norm's Kids argument doesn't hold a lot of water because Lavin/Dunlap used those kids in a way Norm didn't show himself capable of doing in his 6 years here (Hardy/Brownlee were our two best players - Norm brought them off the bench, Lavin/Dunlap used them like our two best players). That being said, it was a decent situation to walk into for that one year (veteran team with some talent that was willing to be coached up). The problem is beyond that year Lavin was left with nothing, needing to build from scratch, so I agree with you on some expecting too quick of a turnaround (myself included). It's a tall order.

That said, after three years it is what you said it is: the overall talent level has improved at an impressive rate that I doubt many other coaches in America could have matched; the play on the court has certainly not improved at the same rate, has likely plateued, and has arguably regressed. There are reasons for that, but it is not a comforting trend nonetheless. Improving the talent level isn't enough, at some point it has to transfer to better play on the court. We aren't seeing that yet on any sort of consistent basis. Next year his first full recruiting class will be Juniors. Need to start at least seeing better play, if not results.

This is close, but I don't agree on all points. Like others, I've held my fire for a few years, but I think there's enough of a sample now to make some observations.

Year 1 was a good situation for Lavin to come into. He had a team full of seniors and he knew he would have a blank slate to work with the following year and to do what he does best, which is recruit.

However, there was no "coaching up" in Year 1. He handed the ball to Hardy and let him be the show. He got a pass for that (with me, anyway) because (1) it worked, mostly and (2) I could see not bothering to implement a system with a dozen players who would all be gone.

Year 2 was a non-Lavin year, so there's not much to say about it.

Year 3 is troubling in many ways. The Year 3 offensive approach is the same as Year 1, which is to say that there isn't one. After two years the zone is still totally ineffective. And if your offensive "strategy" is to create turnovers and score in the open court, then playing zone makes no sense anyway. The only common element I can find between the defensive and offensive "philosophies" is that neither of them requires very much actual coaching. The word "lazy" comes to mind.

Moreover, if your have no real coaching skills and your stock in trade is recruiting talented players and getting them to play for you and to play together, the various transfers and suspensions are a sign that even that isn't working so well for you.

None of this should really be a surprise, as anyone who watched Lavin's UCLA teams saw exactly the same thing - a bunch of talented players without much structure and no discipline from the head coach. You got who you thought you were getting here - a recruiter who is a frankly terrible tactician and is willing to mostly let the inmates run the asylum. Looked at another way, the anti-Bob Knight.

Having said all of that, if everyone returns then this is easily a Sweet 16 team next year - despite the deficiencies. If you look at it objectively, going into the Pitt game you had a team with either no center or a developmental center (depending on whether Obekpa played), no other big men to speak of (a staff miscalculation), no true point guard for much of the season, and a roster with zero upperclassmen ... yet was still in contention for the NCAA tournament.

If everyone returns, then next year you will have a stacked frontcourt, an extra shooter, a full year of Branch, and a bunch of upperclassmen. With that roster, you should be a top 2 or 3 team in the new Big East, win 22-24 games, get a decent seed in the NCAAs, and make a run.

Lavin is who he is, and that's who he's always going to be. And even with all he does wrong, he will still bring in enough talent to be competitive every year. It wouldn't surprise me if he makes the NCAAs every year for 8 years from next year onward, and makes a couple of deep runs based on player talent alone.

It's just not going to be pretty to watch if you like basketball as a sport (as opposed to as an athletic sideshow) and you will have these periodic eruptions of nonsense.

Hopefully he will find someone equivalent to Dunlap to do the things he can't or won't do, which would hopefully minimize some of those issues.

I agree that last year was a wash and that there are troublesome issues this year, and I am probably a bit more optimistic than you on our future. But agree that future involves getting someone here (like Dunlap) who can help get the players to execute at a higher level. I say "help" because, as we saw last year, it's not all about X's and O's either. In addition to his recruiting I see Lavin's skills as a motivator as essential. I think those two go hand-in-hand as they both have a lot to do with relating to kids and getting them to enjoy the program and the game. I thought he and Dunlap comlemented each other perfectly in Year 1, and I don't think it needs to be a whole lot more complicated than getting someone here who is a basketball strategist but doesn't necessarily have the skills Lavin has to run a program. Recognizing your shortcomings and surrounding yourself with people that make you better in those areas is one of the key qualties of being a leader. I was happy Lavin did that in Year 1 and think we need to get back to it.

I do disagree that there wasn't any coaching up in Year 1. There is no doubt that Hardy elevated his game and that was a big part of our success, but that didn't start to take place until Big East play and I thought the way the staff helped him improve his skillset and utilized him played a roll in that as well. Beyond that, the 3/4 court zone press back into that suffocating matchup zone - once it was fully implemented - was a difference maker. That team worked incredibly hard defensively and, importantly, really wrapped up possessions on the defensive glass. On offense they kept it simple, players found roles, and played within themselves. Most of all, I thought there were tremendous adjustments from game to game. For example, they spread Duke out and took advantage of their overagressive defense by backcutting them into submission. A few weeks later, they sort of ambushed Pitt (who had a significant size advantage over us and was likely preparing to stop our perimete replay) and went right at them by making a point of getting the ball to Burrell in the post. These are all things we hadn't necessarily seen from this team the previous 3 years.

Anyway, that's all history now. Whether they were were coached up that year or not, it isn't happening this year. And that's the concern right now. I hope coach keeps bringing in this kind of talent, and I also hope they start to play a more "solid" brand of basketball like the Year 1 team.
 
I was not looking to flame the board.I kept quiet for 3 seasons.I dont give lavin a pass for last season, his coaches were coaching, his recruits were playing.There is no pass for that.Its all about accountability.There is NOT one good shooter on this team.There is 0 chance this team makes the dance next season nevermind the sweet 16..There are no shooters.without shooters, the zone is packed in, and the big guys have no space, and can't score.I have no idea why we set those picks at the top of the key with our big guys, and they dont even roll to the rim.This lets the other teams big guy play the other side of the pick, which forces our guards to just run parralel to the half court line.

We have a bunch of excellent athletes, they can all run, jump, block shots..but that alone does not win..unfortunately for us you have to put the ball in the basket..and this team cannot do that..3 seasons a top coach should of had this program back on top..NC state is back...Norm left this program in better shape then when he got here(and I was a norm hater).The big east is horrible this season, compared to years past.I dont want to see Lavin fired, as he will bring the occassional stud in..But the days of Fran, and Louie are done....

Disagree about shooters. There are players on the team who could shoot, if anything was ever run for them to get a good look. But the way our offense is run if you cannot create for yourself you're screwed.

You're completely right about the pick-no-roll. It's mind-boggling.

Also agree it's a down year for the Artist Formerly Known as the Big East. Louisville, Syracuse, and Georgetown are good. Throw in Marquette if you want. Everybody else stinks.

Also, comparing conference competition this year to next year, is a little like comparing apples to oranges. I don't know if the competition is going to be better or worse next year (probably a slight step down from this year). It's also an incomplete product, with Dayton and St. Louis on the way in 2014.
 
Back
Top