Next Coach?

[Chris7]

Academic and transcript issues fall more on administration. People, compliance people, are paid specifically to handle that type of stuff. That is on the athletic administration.

 

[SJUalum98]

Can't see him getting rid of Hollywood Hines who has done little with helping these players develop.

And Whitesell's impact has been tangible since we can finally see some semblance of an offense.

Chiles has been the machine and has earned the right to stay.

Keady doesn't count as a spot.

The DOBO is the one likely to change and I think he should bring in someone who has bigtime ties in NJ. The top players from NJ have been flocking to UK and Cuse without sniffing SJU. Gotta make inroads there.

 

[lawmanfan]

So let me ask you, lawmanfan, Avon, and Logen;

Is there anything Lavin can do between now and April that would make you consider bringing him back or giving him an extension?

I'm honestly curious, because I thought I was passionately critical of SL, but even I'm willing to keep him if he hits a series of very significant accomplishments (make the NCAAs, land Diallo, etc)

No.

The bottom line is that the man can't coach. His intention is to win by recruiting players who are talented enough that he doesn't have to coach them. That's why we have no halfcourt offense, and why his best play has always been to give the ball to his best player (Hardy, Harrison) and hope they can carry the team. To me that is simply bad basketball, and I hate bad basketball. Even if you can win some games that way, there's no foundation for continued success when you do things that way, there's nothing that gives the program an identity, and frankly it just isn't pleasant to watch if you're a fan of the sport (as opposed to just being a fan of the school or just counting up the W/L record).

His problem at St Johns is that he cannot recruit here the way he did at UCLA. It's a different program, it's in a different state than the one he got handed at UCLA, and it's a different time. He has managed to land a couple of NBA talents, but too often he reaches for a problem child and it bites him in the rear. At UCLA he was a lousy coach who got bailed out by superior talent. Here he's a lousy coach who is trying to bring in superior talent, but every time he plugs a hole one of his stopgap plugs comes out and the program springs a leak.

If he could coach, then he could stop reaching for problem children, bring in solid players who can be developed and/or who can fill roles in a coherent system, and actually build a program. But he is either too lazy, too impatient or too incompetent to do that.

As you point out, he may bring in a great player. He may put together enough wins to make the NCAA tournament. I have little confidence in that happening, but it's possible. But it still won't be a program, nor will it be good basketball. And I've seen nothing that would give any reasonable observer any confidence that his recruiting will pan out or that he will suddenly become a capable game coach.

So the answer to your question is "no."

 

[stjohnschris]

So let me ask you, lawmanfan, Avon, and Logen;

Is there anything Lavin can do between now and April that would make you consider bringing him back or giving him an extension?

I'm honestly curious, because I thought I was passionately critical of SL, but even I'm willing to keep him if he hits a series of very significant accomplishments (make the NCAAs, land Diallo, etc)

No.

The bottom line is that the man can't coach. His intention is to win by recruiting players who are talented enough that he doesn't have to coach them. That's why we have no halfcourt offense, and why his best play has always been to give the ball to his best player (Hardy, Harrison) and hope they can carry the team. To me that is simply bad basketball, and I hate bad basketball. Even if you can win some games that way, there's no foundation for continued success when you do things that way, there's nothing that gives the program an identity, and frankly it just isn't pleasant to watch if you're a fan of the sport (as opposed to just being a fan of the school or just counting up the W/L record).

His problem at St Johns is that he cannot recruit here the way he did at UCLA. It's a different program, it's in a different state than the one he got handed at UCLA, and it's a different time. He has managed to land a couple of NBA talents, but too often he reaches for a problem child and it bites him in the rear. At UCLA he was a lousy coach who got bailed out by superior talent. Here he's a lousy coach who is trying to bring in superior talent, but every time he plugs a hole one of his stopgap plugs comes out and the program springs a leak.

If he could coach, then he could stop reaching for problem children, bring in solid players who can be developed and/or who can fill roles in a coherent system, and actually build a program. But he is either too lazy, too impatient or too incompetent to do that.

As you point out, he may bring in a great player. He may put together enough wins to make the NCAA tournament. I have little confidence in that happening, but it's possible. But it still won't be a program, nor will it be good basketball. And I've seen nothing that would give any reasonable observer any confidence that his recruiting will pan out or that he will suddenly become a capable game coach.

So the answer to your question is "no."

Wow, very well put. I often tell people that I can watch literally any college basketball game, as long as it's "good basketball." I can't even remember an SJU team that ran a real offense, solid picks, consistent box outs, and so on. It's been that long. I'll admit that I see an improvement this year over last, but the execution is sloppy. Meaningless picks at the top of the key with poor spacing that lead nowhere, certainly not a pass to the post.

 

[Class of 72]

Can't see him getting rid of Hollywood Hines who has done little with helping these players develop.

And Whitesell's impact has been tangible since we can finally see some semblance of an offense.

Chiles has been the machine and has earned the right to stay.

Keady doesn't count as a spot.

The DOBO is the one likely to change and I think he should bring in someone who has bigtime ties in NJ. The top players from NJ have been flocking to UK and Cuse without sniffing SJU. Gotta make inroads there.

Not convinced Whitesell is making any difference and Gene Keady leaves me perplexed. How much tutoring does Lavin need after 5 years? If, by some recruiting luck, Lavin's contract is renewed, I would not be surprised to see Keady retire and Whitesell try to land a head coaching gig somewhere.

 

[RedStormRising]

So let me ask you, lawmanfan, Avon, and Logen;

Is there anything Lavin can do between now and April that would make you consider bringing him back or giving him an extension?

I'm honestly curious, because I thought I was passionately critical of SL, but even I'm willing to keep him if he hits a series of very significant accomplishments (make the NCAAs, land Diallo, etc)

No.

The bottom line is that the man can't coach. His intention is to win by recruiting players who are talented enough that he doesn't have to coach them. That's why we have no halfcourt offense, and why his best play has always been to give the ball to his best player (Hardy, Harrison) and hope they can carry the team. To me that is simply bad basketball, and I hate bad basketball. Even if you can win some games that way, there's no foundation for continued success when you do things that way, there's nothing that gives the program an identity, and frankly it just isn't pleasant to watch if you're a fan of the sport (as opposed to just being a fan of the school or just counting up the W/L record).

His problem at St Johns is that he cannot recruit here the way he did at UCLA. It's a different program, it's in a different state than the one he got handed at UCLA, and it's a different time. He has managed to land a couple of NBA talents, but too often he reaches for a problem child and it bites him in the rear. At UCLA he was a lousy coach who got bailed out by superior talent. Here he's a lousy coach who is trying to bring in superior talent, but every time he plugs a hole one of his stopgap plugs comes out and the program springs a leak.

If he could coach, then he could stop reaching for problem children, bring in solid players who can be developed and/or who can fill roles in a coherent system, and actually build a program. But he is either too lazy, too impatient or too incompetent to do that.

As you point out, he may bring in a great player. He may put together enough wins to make the NCAA tournament. I have little confidence in that happening, but it's possible. But it still won't be a program, nor will it be good basketball. And I've seen nothing that would give any reasonable observer any confidence that his recruiting will pan out or that he will suddenly become a capable game coach.

So the answer to your question is "no."

Wow, very well put. I often tell people that I can watch literally any college basketball game, as long as it's "good basketball." I can't even remember an SJU team that ran a real offense, solid picks, consistent box outs, and so on. It's been that long. I'll admit that I see an improvement this year over last, but the execution is sloppy. Meaningless picks at the top of the key with poor spacing that lead nowhere, certainly not a pass to the post.

Got to disagree with these two posts. First, of all the concept of "good basketball" is foreign to me (insert cuz i a St John's fan joke here). What does that mean? Is it running a motion offense, the triangle, princeton-style offense? To me playing good basketball is getting the most out of the players and coaches you have. Do we run a UCLA style high post and rely on CO's passing ability. And what happens if he finds the open man - Phil Greene or maybe Jamal Branch open for 3, how does that help?

As St John's currently stands to get the most out of our coaches we need Lavin recruiting and doing media because that utilizes his strengths. We need Dom making hustle plays and we need D'lo to take 20 shots a game.

As far as our 'Next Coach' I find these topics as offensive as ;our next headcase topics'. Until I'm told otherwise Lavin is our coach and Jordan is our sixth man and I'm going to support them. It's fine to want the best for the program and maybe your belief is that another coach is better for the program than Lavin. It's possible, having Tom Izzo, Rick Pitino, Coach K would be great, hell Fred Hoiberg, Shaka Smart, or Mark Few might be great too, but let me ask you this who can St John's replace Lavin with?

Keep in mind, you probably can pay 1.2 - 1.4MM a year and it seems everyone wants a) head coaching experience b) local ties c) winning record and d) someone who won't use this job as a stepping stone.

Congratulations you've signed Seth Greenberg who in 22 years of coaching has made the NCAA 3 times

or

Tim Welsh who has made 3 NCAA appearances in 13 years (and 1 public DUI)

or

Louis Orr who has 3 NCAA is 13 years, but could drop under .500 with a sub par season.

I think Coach Lavin was a strong hire and considering the alternatives he could be considered a great hire.

GO STORM

 

[chronicbucks]

So let me ask you, lawmanfan, Avon, and Logen;

Is there anything Lavin can do between now and April that would make you consider bringing him back or giving him an extension?

I'm honestly curious, because I thought I was passionately critical of SL, but even I'm willing to keep him if he hits a series of very significant accomplishments (make the NCAAs, land Diallo, etc)

No.

The bottom line is that the man can't coach. His intention is to win by recruiting players who are talented enough that he doesn't have to coach them. That's why we have no halfcourt offense, and why his best play has always been to give the ball to his best player (Hardy, Harrison) and hope they can carry the team. To me that is simply bad basketball, and I hate bad basketball. Even if you can win some games that way, there's no foundation for continued success when you do things that way, there's nothing that gives the program an identity, and frankly it just isn't pleasant to watch if you're a fan of the sport (as opposed to just being a fan of the school or just counting up the W/L record).

His problem at St Johns is that he cannot recruit here the way he did at UCLA. It's a different program, it's in a different state than the one he got handed at UCLA, and it's a different time. He has managed to land a couple of NBA talents, but too often he reaches for a problem child and it bites him in the rear. At UCLA he was a lousy coach who got bailed out by superior talent. Here he's a lousy coach who is trying to bring in superior talent, but every time he plugs a hole one of his stopgap plugs comes out and the program springs a leak.

If he could coach, then he could stop reaching for problem children, bring in solid players who can be developed and/or who can fill roles in a coherent system, and actually build a program. But he is either too lazy, too impatient or too incompetent to do that.

As you point out, he may bring in a great player. He may put together enough wins to make the NCAA tournament. I have little confidence in that happening, but it's possible. But it still won't be a program, nor will it be good basketball. And I've seen nothing that would give any reasonable observer any confidence that his recruiting will pan out or that he will suddenly become a capable game coach.

So the answer to your question is "no."

what a post. summed it up beautifully.

 

[tom in salem]

So let me ask you, lawmanfan, Avon, and Logen;

Is there anything Lavin can do between now and April that would make you consider bringing him back or giving him an extension?

I'm honestly curious, because I thought I was passionately critical of SL, but even I'm willing to keep him if he hits a series of very significant accomplishments (make the NCAAs, land Diallo, etc)

No.

The bottom line is that the man can't coach. His intention is to win by recruiting players who are talented enough that he doesn't have to coach them. That's why we have no halfcourt offense, and why his best play has always been to give the ball to his best player (Hardy, Harrison) and hope they can carry the team. To me that is simply bad basketball, and I hate bad basketball. Even if you can win some games that way, there's no foundation for continued success when you do things that way, there's nothing that gives the program an identity, and frankly it just isn't pleasant to watch if you're a fan of the sport (as opposed to just being a fan of the school or just counting up the W/L record).

His problem at St Johns is that he cannot recruit here the way he did at UCLA. It's a different program, it's in a different state than the one he got handed at UCLA, and it's a different time. He has managed to land a couple of NBA talents, but too often he reaches for a problem child and it bites him in the rear. At UCLA he was a lousy coach who got bailed out by superior talent. Here he's a lousy coach who is trying to bring in superior talent, but every time he plugs a hole one of his stopgap plugs comes out and the program springs a leak.

If he could coach, then he could stop reaching for problem children, bring in solid players who can be developed and/or who can fill roles in a coherent system, and actually build a program. But he is either too lazy, too impatient or too incompetent to do that.

As you point out, he may bring in a great player. He may put together enough wins to make the NCAA tournament. I have little confidence in that happening, but it's possible. But it still won't be a program, nor will it be good basketball. And I've seen nothing that would give any reasonable observer any confidence that his recruiting will pan out or that he will suddenly become a capable game coach.

So the answer to your question is "no."

Looking at a likely 8th-10th place finish in the conference and people are seriously entertaining the thought of retaining the current coach?

 

[gonzalo]

Lav is not going anywhere...

Signing one recruit doesn't change the overall situation.
He'll be in the announcing booth next season.

He could very well have a better team next season.

A better team wins more games.

This season we can win 23-25 games.

Are we going to win more than 23-25 games next season without Harrison?.

 

[Avon Barksdale]

So, Lavin should have known Jordan would have his issues? He should have know that Moe wouldnt stay? Or he should have known that JaKaar wouldn't stay either? Lots of "shouldas" coming from you. Sounds to me like you're the one making all the excuses.

Should. One of the most dangerous words in the English language.

Jordan was considered a "Top Recruit" and the Philly player of the year and Villanova wouldnt even look at him.

That should have spoke volumes with what we were getting ourselves into.

 

[Avon Barksdale]

So let me ask you, lawmanfan, Avon, and Logen;

Is there anything Lavin can do between now and April that would make you consider bringing him back or giving him an extension?

I'm honestly curious, because I thought I was passionately critical of SL, but even I'm willing to keep him if he hits a series of very significant accomplishments (make the NCAAs, land Diallo, etc)

No.

The bottom line is that the man can't coach. His intention is to win by recruiting players who are talented enough that he doesn't have to coach them. That's why we have no halfcourt offense, and why his best play has always been to give the ball to his best player (Hardy, Harrison) and hope they can carry the team. To me that is simply bad basketball, and I hate bad basketball. Even if you can win some games that way, there's no foundation for continued success when you do things that way, there's nothing that gives the program an identity, and frankly it just isn't pleasant to watch if you're a fan of the sport (as opposed to just being a fan of the school or just counting up the W/L record).

His problem at St Johns is that he cannot recruit here the way he did at UCLA. It's a different program, it's in a different state than the one he got handed at UCLA, and it's a different time. He has managed to land a couple of NBA talents, but too often he reaches for a problem child and it bites him in the rear. At UCLA he was a lousy coach who got bailed out by superior talent. Here he's a lousy coach who is trying to bring in superior talent, but every time he plugs a hole one of his stopgap plugs comes out and the program springs a leak.

If he could coach, then he could stop reaching for problem children, bring in solid players who can be developed and/or who can fill roles in a coherent system, and actually build a program. But he is either too lazy, too impatient or too incompetent to do that.

As you point out, he may bring in a great player. He may put together enough wins to make the NCAA tournament. I have little confidence in that happening, but it's possible. But it still won't be a program, nor will it be good basketball. And I've seen nothing that would give any reasonable observer any confidence that his recruiting will pan out or that he will suddenly become a capable game coach.

So the answer to your question is "no."

Tremendous post by lawmanfan.

Just to echo these sentiments, Lavin has not brough in good enough talent to mask his atrocious X's & O's and mind boggling strategies that he throws out there.

His tenure has also been marked by terrible inconsistency.

Even in his first season, where he ironically took Norm's players to the NCAA Tournament, we beat clobber Duke and UConn at MSG but we lose to Fordham and St. Boneventure.

Last season we beat Creighton and we were in position to beat Villanova and Creighton in their buildings but we lose to DePaul and Penn State.

Getting the team to perform consistently is something that Lavin hasnt been able to do and its has kept the program from moving ahead too.

As i said yesterday, I am happy that Brandon Sampson verballed, but at the end of the day its a bandaid on a gun shot wound. With our six best players potentially leaving next season and Samspon as the only one that looks like he can step right in and be an instant contributor we are gonna get our asses handed to us and we are looking at a 10th place finish in the league next year and we are back in a three year rebuild to be competitive.

We can celebrate being in Diallo's top 5, but lets be honest, if his handlers dont want him coming here, and we are going against Kentucky and Kansas, are we really gonna be naive enough to believe the outcome wont be the same as the Briscoe disaster?

Back to this year's team, they will lose tonight to Providence which will make us 0-4. The NCAA Tournament is not a reality here because we would need to go 11-3 in the league down the stretch to be back in the conversation and that is with a schedule of GTown twice, Xavier twice, at Butler at Villanova, SH & PC home and a road games at Creighton and DePaul which will be dog fights. I am not saying we will lose all of these games but i challenge anyone to find me 11 wins on the BE schedule.

 

[Jack Williams]

So let me ask you, lawmanfan, Avon, and Logen;

Is there anything Lavin can do between now and April that would make you consider bringing him back or giving him an extension?

I'm honestly curious, because I thought I was passionately critical of SL, but even I'm willing to keep him if he hits a series of very significant accomplishments (make the NCAAs, land Diallo, etc)

No.

The bottom line is that the man can't coach. His intention is to win by recruiting players who are talented enough that he doesn't have to coach them. That's why we have no halfcourt offense, and why his best play has always been to give the ball to his best player (Hardy, Harrison) and hope they can carry the team. To me that is simply bad basketball, and I hate bad basketball. Even if you can win some games that way, there's no foundation for continued success when you do things that way, there's nothing that gives the program an identity, and frankly it just isn't pleasant to watch if you're a fan of the sport (as opposed to just being a fan of the school or just counting up the W/L record).

His problem at St Johns is that he cannot recruit here the way he did at UCLA. It's a different program, it's in a different state than the one he got handed at UCLA, and it's a different time. He has managed to land a couple of NBA talents, but too often he reaches for a problem child and it bites him in the rear. At UCLA he was a lousy coach who got bailed out by superior talent. Here he's a lousy coach who is trying to bring in superior talent, but every time he plugs a hole one of his stopgap plugs comes out and the program springs a leak.

If he could coach, then he could stop reaching for problem children, bring in solid players who can be developed and/or who can fill roles in a coherent system, and actually build a program. But he is either too lazy, too impatient or too incompetent to do that.

As you point out, he may bring in a great player. He may put together enough wins to make the NCAA tournament. I have little confidence in that happening, but it's possible. But it still won't be a program, nor will it be good basketball. And I've seen nothing that would give any reasonable observer any confidence that his recruiting will pan out or that he will suddenly become a capable game coach.

So the answer to your question is "no."

Looking at a likely 8th-10th place finish in the conference and people are seriously entertaining the thought of retaining the current coach?

Ok. And what happens if we don't? What happens if we make the tournament and get more great recruits? This talk is useless at this point, there is a lot of basketball and a lot of recruiting left to be done.

We have a game tonight at providence, 7PM Eastern. If the season ended today I'd write a 12 paragraph essay like you guys did on why Lavin should be gone. But it isn't called January madness. So I know it is very tempting to take out the pitch forks and go at it when we god forbid lose a couple games, but I ask maybe we wait.

And on top of that, I agree with the poster who said other options are awful. I am in the camp that if we miss the tournament this year we should cut ties Lavin, but at the same time every name that has been thrown out there on this thread has not been exciting and not been anything good.

I know last season I kept saying wait till the end of the season to make a judgment and then we missed the tournament and everyone was angry including me. And I know most don't want to wait all the way till the end of the season and have already made up in their mind that we will never succeed because of Lavins in game coaching abilities or lack thereof. But an NCAA tournament is what everyone wants, and I think we owe to at least DLo to wait and see if we can pull it off and use the momentum to get a stellar recruiting class. The people at the top of SJU athletics are going to take in account what Lavin has done with the program after the season is over, and if he makes the tournament I'd bet everything that he is back. Agree or not he will be.

But who cares, my posts get skimmed anyway, Let the pissing contest resume.

 

[logen]

So let me ask you, lawmanfan, Avon, and Logen;

Is there anything Lavin can do between now and April that would make you consider bringing him back or giving him an extension?

I'm honestly curious, because I thought I was passionately critical of SL, but even I'm willing to keep him if he hits a series of very significant accomplishments (make the NCAAs, land Diallo, etc)

From my perspective no, as much as I don't want to start over again, I do not think Lavin has shown to be a coach I would want to keep under any circumstances. Having said that, I would certainly understand SJU bringing him back should those things you describe happen.

 

[logen]

With the above said, make the tournament and ink Diallo and this entire thread is a moot point, because Steve Lavin will be getting a 4 year extension. And I won't say boo about it.

So if your kid had a D average for 3 years and then somehow pulled out a B+ in his senior year you'd buy him a BMW to drive to the local community college?

I wouldn't buy my son a BMW under any circumstance hahaha

But lawman, I think that if Lavin were to sign Diallo and one of the foreigners (the Italian or Greek) and a decent Juco like freeman, AND make the tournament- that would make me think that we are better off working with what we have; have Monasch force him to hire an associate head coach, or modify or have more input in the practice and recruiting plans etc, rather than scrap everything and start over.
Having success these next couple of months would not erase all of SL's flaws, but in my opinion if he can continue to recruit at a high level, and turns this year's team around - then the pros of keeping him out weigh the inherent risk in hiring someone else.

I don't expect that to happen though. The mistakes he's made have left us so shorthanded, and the seniors have played 4 years without a cohesive offense or good ball movement habits, that I think the team will continue to struggle.

Bringing Lavin back (and in essence giving him a multi year extension) based on the criteria listed above would be absurd.

First of all, based on the recruits Lavin has brought in, I would think that there will be some sort of fiasco with the 2015 class when its all set and done, whether its kids who dont meet eligibility requirements, kids who will transfer, kids who will never make it to campus, kids who will fanagle a way out of their commitments etc. The past repeats itself. Even if Diallo does come here, he will leave us after one year, then what are we left with? Who replaces him? Then we are back at "we have a thin roster, no recruits on the horizon and a coach with two or three years left on his deal."

Also, as lawman stated, i think the entire body of work for "Slick" should be evaluated, not on whether or not this team makes the NCAA Tournament. Remember, this senior class was the #3 incoming class in college basketball four seasons ago and we still havent seen them play in the NCAAs (and to boot, this senior class hasnt won a game in the Big East Tournament. The one post season victory is an NIT win vs St. Joes). Plus, lets be honest, the deck is stacked against us again this season - staring 0-4 in the face it will be an uphill battle to make the NCAAs, especially with the competitive balance in the Big East being much better than it was last year. We still have to play at Villanova, GTown, Xavier and Butler. I am sorry but with this razor thin lineup plus Slick's head scratching in game strategies, it would be miraculous for them to rise above the challenges ahead and win 11 in the league and make an NCAA Tourney.

There is no way you can justify bringing Slick back based on the overall body of work.

You're quite the prognosticator, that you can predict all those issues with the 2015 class.

Tell me, did you also see the issues with Jordan, Thomas, DLo (before his suspension), CO, et. al., when they were recruited?

Don't know if he did but Lavin should have seen some of the issues coming with the recruits he went after, especially the academic ones.

How in the world could anyone, let alone Lavin, know there was a systemic transcript scandal going on at Westchester Community College? Even the Head Coach there, Tyrone Mushatt, was not aware of what was going on. His Assistant Basketball coach was the one who provided phony transcripts and forged signatures. No way anyone outside of the program "should" have seen what was happening, until it all came out. Lavin can be blamed for a lot of things, but this is not one of them.

I did not realize Thomas was Lavin's only acaddemic issue. Make all the excuses you want but at the end of the day this program is in the position it is in because of Lavin, plain and simple.

Please read my posts. I'm not making excuses. Even the Head Coach there did not know what was going on. Oh wait. I know. You'll say he was clueless.

So, Lavin should have known Jordan would have his issues? He should have know that Moe wouldnt stay? Or he should have known that JaKaar wouldn't stay either? Lots of "shouldas" coming from you. Sounds to me like you're the one making all the excuses.

Should. One of the most dangerous words in the English language.

What I do know is Lavin SHOULD have been working his tail off recruiting and developing the players he did recruit; neither happened. Harkless, I certiainly give him a pass; but from Day 1 last year anyone could see Sampson was auditioning for the league but Lavin didn't know? He has handled Jordan wrong almost right from the start and got what he deserved; he knew early on what Jordan was because the kid has been a problem since he came here. Lavin got HIMSELF in trouble with Thomas/Balamou/, etc. type recruits because his laziness backed him in a corner where he wiould have taken almost anyone, including walk ons we were supposed to believe were going to make a difference in the program. He recruited and talked up Hoover and then NEVER even ran a play for him.

I don't care what the Thomas' head coach SAYS he knew or didn't know; I mean I'm sure he is going to come out and say "Oh yeah, I knew we were cheating, not a big deal is it?" I'm sorry, but as I have said, IMO Lavin has been a train wreck. One last comment, Lavin certainly deserves some legitimate credit for the way Harrison has turned around but if Harrison didn't show the intestinal fortitude he did by staying here just imagine this team without him the last two years.

What a pile of garbage. Seriously, are you drinking before during and after you write this. Give Lavin a pass for recruiting a 1st round NBA draft choice one and done? Blame Lavin for recruiting a 2 and done, and not knowing he was going to declare, who by the way was good enough o make an NBA roster? I agree Hooper, not Hoover was a mistake, but to blame Lavin for running enough plays for a kid who got the nod over Borgault and couldn't make the best of it - a kid whose claim to fame was blowing a sure win that likely would have gotten us an at large bid? And then there are you geniuses who hear a rumor that Lavin has been sitting on his ass not recruiting because you didn't see him at your local HS gym when 5 other colleges had somewhere there. It's a crazy pile of crap. You want to tell me he's failed to bring in enough talent, or failed to coach them to an NCAA bid, go ahead. But then shut up when you drool over Ed Cooley, because Providence who is 25-32 in the Big East in his 4th season got hot in a weakened BET? Then you give Lavin a backhanded compliment on Harrison but give Harrison all the credit for intestinal fortitude? What about this - Name one Looie team where three players in the starting five improved dramatically from year 1 to 4? I think you'd be hard pressed, because in watching Looie teams in person for 15 years I can't name 3 guys in all those years who improved over their entire careers. And while we are talking about Lavin being too easy on Jordan, do you remember Carnesecca throwing Curtis Redding out of the gym when he began rooting visibly for the opponent because he was benched? You don't because Carnesecca stood there and did nothing. Every kid and coach is different, and I don't tknow that there is a better, more effective way to handle Jordan - do you?

Trust me, there are enough things to be critical of Lavin that are legitimate, but if you are going to crap on him, at least aim straight.

Wow. you seriously need reading comprehension help. I never, ever said ONE WORD about whether Lavin should have recruited Sampson, the discussion was WHETHER he should have known Sampson was leaving. So my point was, no he should not have seen that Harkless would go after one year but that Sampson leaving after two was obvious from the first game they played because he was obviously auditioning. I won't even comment on the rest of your post. As I've asked before please comment however you want on WHAT I WRITE.

 

[logen]

With the above said, make the tournament and ink Diallo and this entire thread is a moot point, because Steve Lavin will be getting a 4 year extension. And I won't say boo about it.

So if your kid had a D average for 3 years and then somehow pulled out a B+ in his senior year you'd buy him a BMW to drive to the local community college?

I wouldn't buy my son a BMW under any circumstance hahaha

But lawman, I think that if Lavin were to sign Diallo and one of the foreigners (the Italian or Greek) and a decent Juco like freeman, AND make the tournament- that would make me think that we are better off working with what we have; have Monasch force him to hire an associate head coach, or modify or have more input in the practice and recruiting plans etc, rather than scrap everything and start over.
Having success these next couple of months would not erase all of SL's flaws, but in my opinion if he can continue to recruit at a high level, and turns this year's team around - then the pros of keeping him out weigh the inherent risk in hiring someone else.

I don't expect that to happen though. The mistakes he's made have left us so shorthanded, and the seniors have played 4 years without a cohesive offense or good ball movement habits, that I think the team will continue to struggle.

Bringing Lavin back (and in essence giving him a multi year extension) based on the criteria listed above would be absurd.

First of all, based on the recruits Lavin has brought in, I would think that there will be some sort of fiasco with the 2015 class when its all set and done, whether its kids who dont meet eligibility requirements, kids who will transfer, kids who will never make it to campus, kids who will fanagle a way out of their commitments etc. The past repeats itself. Even if Diallo does come here, he will leave us after one year, then what are we left with? Who replaces him? Then we are back at "we have a thin roster, no recruits on the horizon and a coach with two or three years left on his deal."

Also, as lawman stated, i think the entire body of work for "Slick" should be evaluated, not on whether or not this team makes the NCAA Tournament. Remember, this senior class was the #3 incoming class in college basketball four seasons ago and we still havent seen them play in the NCAAs (and to boot, this senior class hasnt won a game in the Big East Tournament. The one post season victory is an NIT win vs St. Joes). Plus, lets be honest, the deck is stacked against us again this season - staring 0-4 in the face it will be an uphill battle to make the NCAAs, especially with the competitive balance in the Big East being much better than it was last year. We still have to play at Villanova, GTown, Xavier and Butler. I am sorry but with this razor thin lineup plus Slick's head scratching in game strategies, it would be miraculous for them to rise above the challenges ahead and win 11 in the league and make an NCAA Tourney.

There is no way you can justify bringing Slick back based on the overall body of work.

You're quite the prognosticator, that you can predict all those issues with the 2015 class.

Tell me, did you also see the issues with Jordan, Thomas, DLo (before his suspension), CO, et. al., when they were recruited?

Don't know if he did but Lavin should have seen some of the issues coming with the recruits he went after, especially the academic ones.

How in the world could anyone, let alone Lavin, know there was a systemic transcript scandal going on at Westchester Community College? Even the Head Coach there, Tyrone Mushatt, was not aware of what was going on. His Assistant Basketball coach was the one who provided phony transcripts and forged signatures. No way anyone outside of the program "should" have seen what was happening, until it all came out. Lavin can be blamed for a lot of things, but this is not one of them.

Oh, first of all, I didn't realize Thomas was Lavin's only academic issue. Second, do your due diligence, when you are recruiting a player who has had issues in the past as Thomas had you have someone talk to his teachers, academic advisor, talk to the kid himself, etc. See if if it all passes the smell test. I'm sorry but at the end of the day you guys have excuses for every bad turn of events instead of seeing it for what it is; shoddy, lazy committment and management. One incident, academic or otherwise, even two yes, I will give the benefit of the doubt, which I did, but year after year, it just is what it is.

While I agree wholeheartedly that his transcript appears to have been written in crayons, and that should have been a big red flag, your other prescribed methods - speaking with teachers, academic advisors, or the kid himself - would have about 1/4 of the kids playing big time basketball ruled suspect.

Exactly why good, stable programs do not go after the kids in that 25%; they do their due diligence. Quite obviously we do.

 

[paultzman]

Season implodes - I suspect SL is most likely gone.

SJU makes Tourney - Suspect he is back.

In the meantime, stating obvious, staff has to go all out on recruiting front.

End result - If we implode & SL is gone at season's end, we have to rebuild & will likely lose any quality recruits who have given oral commitments.

If we make NCAA Tourney & get solid 15 recruits we'll have to live with SL being retained. He will never be accused of overachieving nor has he proven he can get the program to a consistent, high quality level. Will he surprise us? I can't say I am confident, but the proverbial " Between a rock & hard place" adage may apply.

For now, all I can do is hope the team avoids falling in hole they can't get out of & a successful recruiting effort. Not many choices.

 

[1and1sju]

I think Coach Lavin was a strong hire and considering the alternatives he could be considered a great hire.

GO STORM

I don't think there are any circumstances under which it could be considered a great hire at this point.

 

[kranmars]

So let me ask you, lawmanfan, Avon, and Logen;

Is there anything Lavin can do between now and April that would make you consider bringing him back or giving him an extension?

I'm honestly curious, because I thought I was passionately critical of SL, but even I'm willing to keep him if he hits a series of very significant accomplishments (make the NCAAs, land Diallo, etc)

No.

The bottom line is that the man can't coach. His intention is to win by recruiting players who are talented enough that he doesn't have to coach them. That's why we have no halfcourt offense, and why his best play has always been to give the ball to his best player (Hardy, Harrison) and hope they can carry the team. To me that is simply bad basketball, and I hate bad basketball. Even if you can win some games that way, there's no foundation for continued success when you do things that way, there's nothing that gives the program an identity, and frankly it just isn't pleasant to watch if you're a fan of the sport (as opposed to just being a fan of the school or just counting up the W/L record).

His problem at St Johns is that he cannot recruit here the way he did at UCLA. It's a different program, it's in a different state than the one he got handed at UCLA, and it's a different time. He has managed to land a couple of NBA talents, but too often he reaches for a problem child and it bites him in the rear. At UCLA he was a lousy coach who got bailed out by superior talent. Here he's a lousy coach who is trying to bring in superior talent, but every time he plugs a hole one of his stopgap plugs comes out and the program springs a leak.

If he could coach, then he could stop reaching for problem children, bring in solid players who can be developed and/or who can fill roles in a coherent system, and actually build a program. But he is either too lazy, too impatient or too incompetent to do that.

As you point out, he may bring in a great player. He may put together enough wins to make the NCAA tournament. I have little confidence in that happening, but it's possible. But it still won't be a program, nor will it be good basketball. And I've seen nothing that would give any reasonable observer any confidence that his recruiting will pan out or that he will suddenly become a capable game coach.

So the answer to your question is "no."

What if Lavin ran in the middle of the street and saved your cocker spaniel from getting hit by an oncoming truck? Would that make you pause a bit?

 

[westchesterjoe]

Some things to think about:

1.Lavin is Coaching us the same way he Coached at UCLA. His Coaching, or lack therof, got him fired.

2. At the bottom line, Steve is not a good game Coach, Roster Manager, Player Improver or, any of the things that constitute good Coaching Skills.

3. Lavin has ignored his backyard in Recruiting to our detriment and to other BE schools advantage.

4. The press, TV Commentators are finally voicing the issues about his Program, that many here saw years ago as his fundamental weaknesses.There are many.

5. Lavin can bring in ALL the kids on his wish list (he won't) and still won't win, to the level this Program needs. He has already demonstrated his vaunted recruiting is a lot of smoke and mirrors. The team recruited isn't the team that shows up in September.

6. Hollywood Steve doesn't fit our NYC identity or ST. jOHN'S heritage.His PR routine has worn very thin. Like it did at UCLA.. He inherited a ELITE program at UCLA and still failed with top 10 talent and was fired because he ran out of reasons to lose.

I have no idea who should be on our Coaching list, if Steve is canned. I certainly think we can do better and not have to settle for the Seth Greenburgs.. We likely should favor younger, mid major Coaches who are on the rise. Coaches who have won with 3-4 star players but, know how to Coach a team.

 

[monte]

Lavin was brought in here to run a successful basketball program by whatever standard/timeline the administration used at the time. I have to assume that the administration, like most of us, isn't satisfied the results so far. Hell I can't believe that Lavin himself is satisfied with his results so far. IMO the only question is not whether Lavin has been successful and has earned a contract extension, but whether or not he deserves more time and as such should be granted a one or two year incentive laden extension. Skeptical as I am, I am still giving him till the end of the year before rendering my final opinion(not that it matters much). As for the argument that the school should renew Lavin because "we could do a lot worse", clearly many of you have never ran a business or you wouldn't be advocating for holding on to a highly paid, underachieving employee simply because you don't want to risk hiring someone who could potentially be worse. Either an employee has met expectations, you feel confident he is on his way to meeting expectations, or at some point you cut bait.