Next Coach?

[TonyinFairfield]

Lavin was brought in here to run a successful basketball program by whatever standard/timeline the administration used at the time. I have to assume that the administration, like most of us, isn't satisfied the results so far. Hell I can't believe that Lavin himself is satisfied with his results so far. IMO the only question is not whether Lavin has been successful and has earned a contract extension, but whether or not he deserves more time and as such should be granted a one or two year incentive laden extension. Skeptical as I am, I am still giving him till the end of the year before rendering my final opinion(not that it matters much). As for the argument that the school should renew Lavin because "we could do a lot worse", clearly many of you have never ran a business or you wouldn't be advocating for holding on to a highly paid, underachieving employee simply because you don't want to risk hiring someone who could potentially be worse. Either an employee has met expectations, you feel confident he is on his way to meeting expectations, or at some point you cut bait.

I hear what you're saying, monte. But I don't think it's as simple an analogy as you make it. This is not just any employee, this position is equivalent to firing a CEO and looking for his or her replacement. Very different consequences to hiring the wrong person.

But I do agree about reserving judgment until the season is over. And even if I do believe it's time for a change when the season is done, you're damn right I'm going to be very concerned about who we bring in here. Unless Coach K, Jim Boeheim, Roy Williams, or somebody else of that caliber comes here, it is a total crapshoot. Remember, how many posters wanted Steve Massiello here? That would have been a disaster completely disregarding his coaching and recruiting abilities.

 

[monte]

Lavin was brought in here to run a successful basketball program by whatever standard/timeline the administration used at the time. I have to assume that the administration, like most of us, isn't satisfied the results so far. Hell I can't believe that Lavin himself is satisfied with his results so far. IMO the only question is not whether Lavin has been successful and has earned a contract extension, but whether or not he deserves more time and as such should be granted a one or two year incentive laden extension. Skeptical as I am, I am still giving him till the end of the year before rendering my final opinion(not that it matters much). As for the argument that the school should renew Lavin because "we could do a lot worse", clearly many of you have never ran a business or you wouldn't be advocating for holding on to a highly paid, underachieving employee simply because you don't want to risk hiring someone who could potentially be worse. Either an employee has met expectations, you feel confident he is on his way to meeting expectations, or at some point you cut bait.

I hear what you're saying, monte. But I don't think it's as simple an analogy as you make it. This is not just any employee, this position is equivalent to firing a CEO and looking for his or her replacement. Very different consequences to hiring the wrong person.

But I do agree about reserving judgment until the season is over. And even if I do believe it's time for a change when the season is done, you're damn right I'm going to be very concerned about who we bring in here. Unless Coach K, Jim Boeheim, Roy Williams, or somebody else of that caliber comes here, it is a total crapshoot. Remember, how many posters wanted Steve Massiello here? That would have been a disaster completely disregarding his coaching and recruiting abilities.

I agree its not a perfect analogy Tony, but IMO the fundamentals are the same. You hire someone at X number of $ expecting him to achieve Y level of success in Z timeframe. Maybe you maybe you modify those expectations and/or timeframe along the way if you feel that your employee is giving their all and that there are extenuating circumstances. But at a certain point when your employee hasn't met expectations, and if you do not feel that they are headed towards meeting expectations, then you need to make a change. Believe me Tony, I have all the same concerns as you about a possible new coaching search, but I'd rather see the school take a another shot a finding the right fit for the program(I firmly believe that there are strong candidates out there) then continuing to settle for mediocrity, and I use that word generously.

 

[JohnnyFan]

Some things to think about:

1.Lavin is Coaching us the same way he Coached at UCLA. His Coaching, or lack therof, got him fired.

2. At the bottom line, Steve is not a good game Coach, Roster Manager, Player Improver or, any of the things that constitute good Coaching Skills.

3. Lavin has ignored his backyard in Recruiting to our detriment and to other BE schools advantage.

4. The press, TV Commentators are finally voicing the issues about his Program, that many here saw years ago as his fundamental weaknesses.There are many.

5. Lavin can bring in ALL the kids on his wish list (he won't) and still won't win, to the level this Program needs. He has already demonstrated his vaunted recruiting is a lot of smoke and mirrors. The team recruited isn't the team that shows up in September.

6. Hollywood Steve doesn't fit our NYC identity or ST. jOHN'S heritage.His PR routine has worn very thin. Like it did at UCLA.. He inherited a ELITE program at UCLA and still failed with top 10 talent and was fired because he ran out of reasons to lose.

I have no idea who should be on our Coaching list, if Steve is canned. I certainly think we can do better and not have to settle for the Seth Greenburgs.. We likely should favor younger, mid major Coaches who are on the rise. Coaches who have won with 3-4 star players but, know how to Coach a team.

Nice post.

 

[redmaninalbany]

KAvon: Re the line in your post --"They will lose to providence tonight"

Why not hedge by including "likely" or "probably" or "I anticipate"?
And Isn't the "they" really " we"?

My intent is not personal criticism but to use the post as illustrative of how
so many posts here now portray a defeatist mindset, not just generally about the year
but about individual players and specific games. Increasingly, as frustrated fans, we
use language that creates emotional distance from our team, not just the
Coach or the administration or whatever aspect upsets us, but the team itself.

The Big East season is off to a most disappointing start for the fans AND the team.
Nevertheless, this site probably has had the most ardent collection of SJU fans left in the country. So, I suggest, even though we might anticipate a worst outcome, let's try to not be even inadvertently dismissive of the great effort the players likely will make tonight and in the weeks ahead. So much of success is predicated on
skill set, but a great deal is also predicated on positive attitude, inner strength and self-belief.
However we view them individually or collectively, we might try to give them at least a measure of hope.

 

[redfan259999888]

So let me ask you, lawmanfan, Avon, and Logen;

Is there anything Lavin can do between now and April that would make you consider bringing him back or giving him an extension?

I'm honestly curious, because I thought I was passionately critical of SL, but even I'm willing to keep him if he hits a series of very significant accomplishments (make the NCAAs, land Diallo, etc)

No.

The bottom line is that the man can't coach. His intention is to win by recruiting players who are talented enough that he doesn't have to coach them. That's why we have no halfcourt offense, and why his best play has always been to give the ball to his best player (Hardy, Harrison) and hope they can carry the team. To me that is simply bad basketball, and I hate bad basketball. Even if you can win some games that way, there's no foundation for continued success when you do things that way, there's nothing that gives the program an identity, and frankly it just isn't pleasant to watch if you're a fan of the sport (as opposed to just being a fan of the school or just counting up the W/L record).

His problem at St Johns is that he cannot recruit here the way he did at UCLA. It's a different program, it's in a different state than the one he got handed at UCLA, and it's a different time. He has managed to land a couple of NBA talents, but too often he reaches for a problem child and it bites him in the rear. At UCLA he was a lousy coach who got bailed out by superior talent. Here he's a lousy coach who is trying to bring in superior talent, but every time he plugs a hole one of his stopgap plugs comes out and the program springs a leak.

If he could coach, then he could stop reaching for problem children, bring in solid players who can be developed and/or who can fill roles in a coherent system, and actually build a program. But he is either too lazy, too impatient or too incompetent to do that.

As you point out, he may bring in a great player. He may put together enough wins to make the NCAA tournament. I have little confidence in that happening, but it's possible. But it still won't be a program, nor will it be good basketball. And I've seen nothing that would give any reasonable observer any confidence that his recruiting will pan out or that he will suddenly become a capable game coach.

So the answer to your question is "no."

Looking at a likely 8th-10th place finish in the conference and people are seriously entertaining the thought of retaining the current coach?

I am willing to give him a secord crop of top recruits. After that he'll have two years to get to the ncaa with them or he goes, and I won't even care how good the recruits are for 16-17.
NCAA or BUST.

I think that would satisfy both the Lavin defenders/bashers.

 

[simplyred]

KAvon: Re the line in your post --"They will lose to providence tonight"

Why not hedge by including "likely" or "probably" or "I anticipate"?
And Isn't the "they" really " we"?

My intent is not personal criticism but to use the post as illustrative of how
so many posts here now portray a defeatist mindset, not just generally about the year
but about individual players and specific games. Increasingly, as frustrated fans, we
use language that creates emotional distance from our team, not just the
Coach or the administration or whatever aspect upsets us, but the team itself.

The Big East season is off to a most disappointing start for the fans AND the team.
Nevertheless, this site probably has had the most ardent collection of SJU fans left in the country. So, I suggest, even though we might anticipate a worst outcome, let's try to not be even inadvertently dismissive of the great effort the players likely will make tonight and in the weeks ahead. So much of success is predicated on
skill set, but a great deal is also predicated on positive attitude, inner strength and self-belief.
However we view them individually or collectively, we might try to give them at least a measure of hope.

What an absolutely fantastic post. I'm not sure why anyone follows a team if it renders them totally hopeless.

 

[1and1sju]

So let me ask you, lawmanfan, Avon, and Logen;

Is there anything Lavin can do between now and April that would make you consider bringing him back or giving him an extension?

I'm honestly curious, because I thought I was passionately critical of SL, but even I'm willing to keep him if he hits a series of very significant accomplishments (make the NCAAs, land Diallo, etc)

No.

The bottom line is that the man can't coach. His intention is to win by recruiting players who are talented enough that he doesn't have to coach them. That's why we have no halfcourt offense, and why his best play has always been to give the ball to his best player (Hardy, Harrison) and hope they can carry the team. To me that is simply bad basketball, and I hate bad basketball. Even if you can win some games that way, there's no foundation for continued success when you do things that way, there's nothing that gives the program an identity, and frankly it just isn't pleasant to watch if you're a fan of the sport (as opposed to just being a fan of the school or just counting up the W/L record).

His problem at St Johns is that he cannot recruit here the way he did at UCLA. It's a different program, it's in a different state than the one he got handed at UCLA, and it's a different time. He has managed to land a couple of NBA talents, but too often he reaches for a problem child and it bites him in the rear. At UCLA he was a lousy coach who got bailed out by superior talent. Here he's a lousy coach who is trying to bring in superior talent, but every time he plugs a hole one of his stopgap plugs comes out and the program springs a leak.

If he could coach, then he could stop reaching for problem children, bring in solid players who can be developed and/or who can fill roles in a coherent system, and actually build a program. But he is either too lazy, too impatient or too incompetent to do that.

As you point out, he may bring in a great player. He may put together enough wins to make the NCAA tournament. I have little confidence in that happening, but it's possible. But it still won't be a program, nor will it be good basketball. And I've seen nothing that would give any reasonable observer any confidence that his recruiting will pan out or that he will suddenly become a capable game coach.

So the answer to your question is "no."

Looking at a likely 8th-10th place finish in the conference and people are seriously entertaining the thought of retaining the current coach?

I am willing to give him a secord crop of top recruits. After that he'll have two years to get to the ncaa with them or he goes, and I won't even care how good the recruits are for 16-17.
NCAA or BUST.

I think that would satisfy both the Lavin defenders/bashers.

So your criteria is he needs to make the NCAAs by 2017?

He's been here since 2010.

 

[redfan259999888]

So let me ask you, lawmanfan, Avon, and Logen;

Is there anything Lavin can do between now and April that would make you consider bringing him back or giving him an extension?

I'm honestly curious, because I thought I was passionately critical of SL, but even I'm willing to keep him if he hits a series of very significant accomplishments (make the NCAAs, land Diallo, etc)

No.

The bottom line is that the man can't coach. His intention is to win by recruiting players who are talented enough that he doesn't have to coach them. That's why we have no halfcourt offense, and why his best play has always been to give the ball to his best player (Hardy, Harrison) and hope they can carry the team. To me that is simply bad basketball, and I hate bad basketball. Even if you can win some games that way, there's no foundation for continued success when you do things that way, there's nothing that gives the program an identity, and frankly it just isn't pleasant to watch if you're a fan of the sport (as opposed to just being a fan of the school or just counting up the W/L record).

His problem at St Johns is that he cannot recruit here the way he did at UCLA. It's a different program, it's in a different state than the one he got handed at UCLA, and it's a different time. He has managed to land a couple of NBA talents, but too often he reaches for a problem child and it bites him in the rear. At UCLA he was a lousy coach who got bailed out by superior talent. Here he's a lousy coach who is trying to bring in superior talent, but every time he plugs a hole one of his stopgap plugs comes out and the program springs a leak.

If he could coach, then he could stop reaching for problem children, bring in solid players who can be developed and/or who can fill roles in a coherent system, and actually build a program. But he is either too lazy, too impatient or too incompetent to do that.

As you point out, he may bring in a great player. He may put together enough wins to make the NCAA tournament. I have little confidence in that happening, but it's possible. But it still won't be a program, nor will it be good basketball. And I've seen nothing that would give any reasonable observer any confidence that his recruiting will pan out or that he will suddenly become a capable game coach.

So the answer to your question is "no."

Looking at a likely 8th-10th place finish in the conference and people are seriously entertaining the thought of retaining the current coach?

I am willing to give him a secord crop of top recruits. After that he'll have two years to get to the ncaa with them or he goes, and I won't even care how good the recruits are for 16-17.
NCAA or BUST.

I think that would satisfy both the Lavin defenders/bashers.

So your criteria is he needs to make the NCAAs by 2017?

He's been here since 2010.

Well Desco you have two choices.
Exterm Lavin for the short term. Get Sampson, maybe: Diallo, Lovett, Free, a few others that IK'm missing off the top of my head. I'd like to think Lavin could add 1 or 2 of the maybe.
or
Next coach, Sampson probably decommits, all of the maybe probably don't come, and settle for 2 or 3 satar players.

Trust me Desco, I hate settling for the NIT bs, and unlike others I don't consider the NIT an accomplishment. Every year it's nit or bust.
Yes I also know the sooner we get a new coach the sooner we could possibly go in the right direction, though it might take alittle lonmger to win.

Maybe with the new crop, maybe with another shooter (sampson is a shooter), and not just athletic guys, we could spread the defense alot alittle. We'll see better results then with his first recruits. Be patient, but not 5, 6 years patient. Hopefully we'll be rewarded

 

[beast of the east]

With the above said, make the tournament and ink Diallo and this entire thread is a moot point, because Steve Lavin will be getting a 4 year extension. And I won't say boo about it.

So if your kid had a D average for 3 years and then somehow pulled out a B+ in his senior year you'd buy him a BMW to drive to the local community college?

I wouldn't buy my son a BMW under any circumstance hahaha

But lawman, I think that if Lavin were to sign Diallo and one of the foreigners (the Italian or Greek) and a decent Juco like freeman, AND make the tournament- that would make me think that we are better off working with what we have; have Monasch force him to hire an associate head coach, or modify or have more input in the practice and recruiting plans etc, rather than scrap everything and start over.
Having success these next couple of months would not erase all of SL's flaws, but in my opinion if he can continue to recruit at a high level, and turns this year's team around - then the pros of keeping him out weigh the inherent risk in hiring someone else.

I don't expect that to happen though. The mistakes he's made have left us so shorthanded, and the seniors have played 4 years without a cohesive offense or good ball movement habits, that I think the team will continue to struggle.

Bringing Lavin back (and in essence giving him a multi year extension) based on the criteria listed above would be absurd.

First of all, based on the recruits Lavin has brought in, I would think that there will be some sort of fiasco with the 2015 class when its all set and done, whether its kids who dont meet eligibility requirements, kids who will transfer, kids who will never make it to campus, kids who will fanagle a way out of their commitments etc. The past repeats itself. Even if Diallo does come here, he will leave us after one year, then what are we left with? Who replaces him? Then we are back at "we have a thin roster, no recruits on the horizon and a coach with two or three years left on his deal."

Also, as lawman stated, i think the entire body of work for "Slick" should be evaluated, not on whether or not this team makes the NCAA Tournament. Remember, this senior class was the #3 incoming class in college basketball four seasons ago and we still havent seen them play in the NCAAs (and to boot, this senior class hasnt won a game in the Big East Tournament. The one post season victory is an NIT win vs St. Joes). Plus, lets be honest, the deck is stacked against us again this season - staring 0-4 in the face it will be an uphill battle to make the NCAAs, especially with the competitive balance in the Big East being much better than it was last year. We still have to play at Villanova, GTown, Xavier and Butler. I am sorry but with this razor thin lineup plus Slick's head scratching in game strategies, it would be miraculous for them to rise above the challenges ahead and win 11 in the league and make an NCAA Tourney.

There is no way you can justify bringing Slick back based on the overall body of work.

You're quite the prognosticator, that you can predict all those issues with the 2015 class.

Tell me, did you also see the issues with Jordan, Thomas, DLo (before his suspension), CO, et. al., when they were recruited?

Don't know if he did but Lavin should have seen some of the issues coming with the recruits he went after, especially the academic ones.

How in the world could anyone, let alone Lavin, know there was a systemic transcript scandal going on at Westchester Community College? Even the Head Coach there, Tyrone Mushatt, was not aware of what was going on. His Assistant Basketball coach was the one who provided phony transcripts and forged signatures. No way anyone outside of the program "should" have seen what was happening, until it all came out. Lavin can be blamed for a lot of things, but this is not one of them.

Oh, first of all, I didn't realize Thomas was Lavin's only academic issue. Second, do your due diligence, when you are recruiting a player who has had issues in the past as Thomas had you have someone talk to his teachers, academic advisor, talk to the kid himself, etc. See if if it all passes the smell test. I'm sorry but at the end of the day you guys have excuses for every bad turn of events instead of seeing it for what it is; shoddy, lazy committment and management. One incident, academic or otherwise, even two yes, I will give the benefit of the doubt, which I did, but year after year, it just is what it is.

While I agree wholeheartedly that his transcript appears to have been written in crayons, and that should have been a big red flag, your other prescribed methods - speaking with teachers, academic advisors, or the kid himself - would have about 1/4 of the kids playing big time basketball ruled suspect.

Exactly why good, stable programs do not go after the kids in that 25%; they do their due diligence. Quite obviously we do.

Risk/reward. Remember when Norm went after the kid who ended up at Cinncinati, Lance Stephenson? By far he wasn't the only one - why? He was an NBA talent.

 

[JohnnyFan]

So let me ask you, lawmanfan, Avon, and Logen;

Is there anything Lavin can do between now and April that would make you consider bringing him back or giving him an extension?

I'm honestly curious, because I thought I was passionately critical of SL, but even I'm willing to keep him if he hits a series of very significant accomplishments (make the NCAAs, land Diallo, etc)

No.

The bottom line is that the man can't coach. His intention is to win by recruiting players who are talented enough that he doesn't have to coach them. That's why we have no halfcourt offense, and why his best play has always been to give the ball to his best player (Hardy, Harrison) and hope they can carry the team. To me that is simply bad basketball, and I hate bad basketball. Even if you can win some games that way, there's no foundation for continued success when you do things that way, there's nothing that gives the program an identity, and frankly it just isn't pleasant to watch if you're a fan of the sport (as opposed to just being a fan of the school or just counting up the W/L record).

His problem at St Johns is that he cannot recruit here the way he did at UCLA. It's a different program, it's in a different state than the one he got handed at UCLA, and it's a different time. He has managed to land a couple of NBA talents, but too often he reaches for a problem child and it bites him in the rear. At UCLA he was a lousy coach who got bailed out by superior talent. Here he's a lousy coach who is trying to bring in superior talent, but every time he plugs a hole one of his stopgap plugs comes out and the program springs a leak.

If he could coach, then he could stop reaching for problem children, bring in solid players who can be developed and/or who can fill roles in a coherent system, and actually build a program. But he is either too lazy, too impatient or too incompetent to do that.

As you point out, he may bring in a great player. He may put together enough wins to make the NCAA tournament. I have little confidence in that happening, but it's possible. But it still won't be a program, nor will it be good basketball. And I've seen nothing that would give any reasonable observer any confidence that his recruiting will pan out or that he will suddenly become a capable game coach.

So the answer to your question is "no."

Looking at a likely 8th-10th place finish in the conference and people are seriously entertaining the thought of retaining the current coach?

I am willing to give him a secord crop of top recruits. After that he'll have two years to get to the ncaa with them or he goes, and I won't even care how good the recruits are for 16-17.
NCAA or BUST.

I think that would satisfy both the Lavin defenders/bashers.

So your criteria is he needs to make the NCAAs by 2017?

He's been here since 2010.

Well Desco you have two choices.
Exterm Lavin for the short term. Get Sampson, maybe: Diallo, Lovett, Free, a few others that IK'm missing off the top of my head. I'd like to think Lavin could add 1 or 2 of the maybe.
or
Next coach, Sampson probably decommits, all of the maybe probably don't come, and settle for 2 or 3 satar players.

Trust me Desco, I hate settling for the NIT bs, and unlike others I don't consider the NIT an accomplishment. Every year it's nit or bust.
Yes I also know the sooner we get a new coach the sooner we could possibly go in the right direction, though it might take alittle lonmger to win.

Maybe with the new crop, maybe with another shooter (sampson is a shooter), and not just athletic guys, we could spread the defense alot alittle. We'll see better results then with his first recruits. Be patient, but not 5, 6 years patient. Hopefully we'll be rewarded

You framed the choices well. To me, both options are painful. That said, I would choose option #1........which entails cutting ties, loosing the recruits ,and starting over. It would be a tough road, but I just loath the thought of going through all the "Lavin stuff" for another 3-4 year cycle.

 

[logen]

With the above said, make the tournament and ink Diallo and this entire thread is a moot point, because Steve Lavin will be getting a 4 year extension. And I won't say boo about it.

So if your kid had a D average for 3 years and then somehow pulled out a B+ in his senior year you'd buy him a BMW to drive to the local community college?

I wouldn't buy my son a BMW under any circumstance hahaha

But lawman, I think that if Lavin were to sign Diallo and one of the foreigners (the Italian or Greek) and a decent Juco like freeman, AND make the tournament- that would make me think that we are better off working with what we have; have Monasch force him to hire an associate head coach, or modify or have more input in the practice and recruiting plans etc, rather than scrap everything and start over.
Having success these next couple of months would not erase all of SL's flaws, but in my opinion if he can continue to recruit at a high level, and turns this year's team around - then the pros of keeping him out weigh the inherent risk in hiring someone else.

I don't expect that to happen though. The mistakes he's made have left us so shorthanded, and the seniors have played 4 years without a cohesive offense or good ball movement habits, that I think the team will continue to struggle.

Bringing Lavin back (and in essence giving him a multi year extension) based on the criteria listed above would be absurd.

First of all, based on the recruits Lavin has brought in, I would think that there will be some sort of fiasco with the 2015 class when its all set and done, whether its kids who dont meet eligibility requirements, kids who will transfer, kids who will never make it to campus, kids who will fanagle a way out of their commitments etc. The past repeats itself. Even if Diallo does come here, he will leave us after one year, then what are we left with? Who replaces him? Then we are back at "we have a thin roster, no recruits on the horizon and a coach with two or three years left on his deal."

Also, as lawman stated, i think the entire body of work for "Slick" should be evaluated, not on whether or not this team makes the NCAA Tournament. Remember, this senior class was the #3 incoming class in college basketball four seasons ago and we still havent seen them play in the NCAAs (and to boot, this senior class hasnt won a game in the Big East Tournament. The one post season victory is an NIT win vs St. Joes). Plus, lets be honest, the deck is stacked against us again this season - staring 0-4 in the face it will be an uphill battle to make the NCAAs, especially with the competitive balance in the Big East being much better than it was last year. We still have to play at Villanova, GTown, Xavier and Butler. I am sorry but with this razor thin lineup plus Slick's head scratching in game strategies, it would be miraculous for them to rise above the challenges ahead and win 11 in the league and make an NCAA Tourney.

There is no way you can justify bringing Slick back based on the overall body of work.

You're quite the prognosticator, that you can predict all those issues with the 2015 class.

Tell me, did you also see the issues with Jordan, Thomas, DLo (before his suspension), CO, et. al., when they were recruited?

Don't know if he did but Lavin should have seen some of the issues coming with the recruits he went after, especially the academic ones.

How in the world could anyone, let alone Lavin, know there was a systemic transcript scandal going on at Westchester Community College? Even the Head Coach there, Tyrone Mushatt, was not aware of what was going on. His Assistant Basketball coach was the one who provided phony transcripts and forged signatures. No way anyone outside of the program "should" have seen what was happening, until it all came out. Lavin can be blamed for a lot of things, but this is not one of them.

Oh, first of all, I didn't realize Thomas was Lavin's only academic issue. Second, do your due diligence, when you are recruiting a player who has had issues in the past as Thomas had you have someone talk to his teachers, academic advisor, talk to the kid himself, etc. See if if it all passes the smell test. I'm sorry but at the end of the day you guys have excuses for every bad turn of events instead of seeing it for what it is; shoddy, lazy committment and management. One incident, academic or otherwise, even two yes, I will give the benefit of the doubt, which I did, but year after year, it just is what it is.

While I agree wholeheartedly that his transcript appears to have been written in crayons, and that should have been a big red flag, your other prescribed methods - speaking with teachers, academic advisors, or the kid himself - would have about 1/4 of the kids playing big time basketball ruled suspect.

Exactly why good, stable programs do not go after the kids in that 25%; they do their due diligence. Quite obviously we do.

Risk/reward. Remember when Norm went after the kid who ended up at Cinncinati, Lance Stephenson? By far he wasn't the only one - why? He was an NBA talent.

Look, one player, one recruitment means nothing. If you are happy with our roster, present and future, so be it.

 

[beast of the east]

With the above said, make the tournament and ink Diallo and this entire thread is a moot point, because Steve Lavin will be getting a 4 year extension. And I won't say boo about it.

So if your kid had a D average for 3 years and then somehow pulled out a B+ in his senior year you'd buy him a BMW to drive to the local community college?

I wouldn't buy my son a BMW under any circumstance hahaha

But lawman, I think that if Lavin were to sign Diallo and one of the foreigners (the Italian or Greek) and a decent Juco like freeman, AND make the tournament- that would make me think that we are better off working with what we have; have Monasch force him to hire an associate head coach, or modify or have more input in the practice and recruiting plans etc, rather than scrap everything and start over.
Having success these next couple of months would not erase all of SL's flaws, but in my opinion if he can continue to recruit at a high level, and turns this year's team around - then the pros of keeping him out weigh the inherent risk in hiring someone else.

I don't expect that to happen though. The mistakes he's made have left us so shorthanded, and the seniors have played 4 years without a cohesive offense or good ball movement habits, that I think the team will continue to struggle.

Bringing Lavin back (and in essence giving him a multi year extension) based on the criteria listed above would be absurd.

First of all, based on the recruits Lavin has brought in, I would think that there will be some sort of fiasco with the 2015 class when its all set and done, whether its kids who dont meet eligibility requirements, kids who will transfer, kids who will never make it to campus, kids who will fanagle a way out of their commitments etc. The past repeats itself. Even if Diallo does come here, he will leave us after one year, then what are we left with? Who replaces him? Then we are back at "we have a thin roster, no recruits on the horizon and a coach with two or three years left on his deal."

Also, as lawman stated, i think the entire body of work for "Slick" should be evaluated, not on whether or not this team makes the NCAA Tournament. Remember, this senior class was the #3 incoming class in college basketball four seasons ago and we still havent seen them play in the NCAAs (and to boot, this senior class hasnt won a game in the Big East Tournament. The one post season victory is an NIT win vs St. Joes). Plus, lets be honest, the deck is stacked against us again this season - staring 0-4 in the face it will be an uphill battle to make the NCAAs, especially with the competitive balance in the Big East being much better than it was last year. We still have to play at Villanova, GTown, Xavier and Butler. I am sorry but with this razor thin lineup plus Slick's head scratching in game strategies, it would be miraculous for them to rise above the challenges ahead and win 11 in the league and make an NCAA Tourney.

There is no way you can justify bringing Slick back based on the overall body of work.

You're quite the prognosticator, that you can predict all those issues with the 2015 class.

Tell me, did you also see the issues with Jordan, Thomas, DLo (before his suspension), CO, et. al., when they were recruited?

Don't know if he did but Lavin should have seen some of the issues coming with the recruits he went after, especially the academic ones.

How in the world could anyone, let alone Lavin, know there was a systemic transcript scandal going on at Westchester Community College? Even the Head Coach there, Tyrone Mushatt, was not aware of what was going on. His Assistant Basketball coach was the one who provided phony transcripts and forged signatures. No way anyone outside of the program "should" have seen what was happening, until it all came out. Lavin can be blamed for a lot of things, but this is not one of them.

Oh, first of all, I didn't realize Thomas was Lavin's only academic issue. Second, do your due diligence, when you are recruiting a player who has had issues in the past as Thomas had you have someone talk to his teachers, academic advisor, talk to the kid himself, etc. See if if it all passes the smell test. I'm sorry but at the end of the day you guys have excuses for every bad turn of events instead of seeing it for what it is; shoddy, lazy committment and management. One incident, academic or otherwise, even two yes, I will give the benefit of the doubt, which I did, but year after year, it just is what it is.

While I agree wholeheartedly that his transcript appears to have been written in crayons, and that should have been a big red flag, your other prescribed methods - speaking with teachers, academic advisors, or the kid himself - would have about 1/4 of the kids playing big time basketball ruled suspect.

Exactly why good, stable programs do not go after the kids in that 25%; they do their due diligence. Quite obviously we do.

Risk/reward. Remember when Norm went after the kid who ended up at Cinncinati, Lance Stephenson? By far he wasn't the only one - why? He was an NBA talent.

Look, one player, one recruitment means nothing. If you are happy with our roster, present and future, so be it.

It's one example. Calipari made his name loading rosters with any kid he could any way he could. You made a point, I gave one example. Tarkanian recruited lots of questionable kids at UNLV and they went very deep into tournaments. BC in the 80s hid poor students like Michael Adams and Jay murphy in night school, where GPAs didn't matter. Jim Valvano recruited questionable kids also.

 

[monte]

So let me ask you, lawmanfan, Avon, and Logen;

Is there anything Lavin can do between now and April that would make you consider bringing him back or giving him an extension?

I'm honestly curious, because I thought I was passionately critical of SL, but even I'm willing to keep him if he hits a series of very significant accomplishments (make the NCAAs, land Diallo, etc)

No.

The bottom line is that the man can't coach. His intention is to win by recruiting players who are talented enough that he doesn't have to coach them. That's why we have no halfcourt offense, and why his best play has always been to give the ball to his best player (Hardy, Harrison) and hope they can carry the team. To me that is simply bad basketball, and I hate bad basketball. Even if you can win some games that way, there's no foundation for continued success when you do things that way, there's nothing that gives the program an identity, and frankly it just isn't pleasant to watch if you're a fan of the sport (as opposed to just being a fan of the school or just counting up the W/L record).

His problem at St Johns is that he cannot recruit here the way he did at UCLA. It's a different program, it's in a different state than the one he got handed at UCLA, and it's a different time. He has managed to land a couple of NBA talents, but too often he reaches for a problem child and it bites him in the rear. At UCLA he was a lousy coach who got bailed out by superior talent. Here he's a lousy coach who is trying to bring in superior talent, but every time he plugs a hole one of his stopgap plugs comes out and the program springs a leak.

If he could coach, then he could stop reaching for problem children, bring in solid players who can be developed and/or who can fill roles in a coherent system, and actually build a program. But he is either too lazy, too impatient or too incompetent to do that.

As you point out, he may bring in a great player. He may put together enough wins to make the NCAA tournament. I have little confidence in that happening, but it's possible. But it still won't be a program, nor will it be good basketball. And I've seen nothing that would give any reasonable observer any confidence that his recruiting will pan out or that he will suddenly become a capable game coach.

So the answer to your question is "no."

Looking at a likely 8th-10th place finish in the conference and people are seriously entertaining the thought of retaining the current coach?

I am willing to give him a secord crop of top recruits. After that he'll have two years to get to the ncaa with them or he goes, and I won't even care how good the recruits are for 16-17.
NCAA or BUST.

I think that would satisfy both the Lavin defenders/bashers.

So your criteria is he needs to make the NCAAs by 2017?

He's been here since 2010.

Well Desco you have two choices.
Exterm Lavin for the short term. Get Sampson, maybe: Diallo, Lovett, Free, a few others that IK'm missing off the top of my head. I'd like to think Lavin could add 1 or 2 of the maybe.
or
Next coach, Sampson probably decommits, all of the maybe probably don't come, and settle for 2 or 3 satar players.

Trust me Desco, I hate settling for the NIT bs, and unlike others I don't consider the NIT an accomplishment. Every year it's nit or bust.
Yes I also know the sooner we get a new coach the sooner we could possibly go in the right direction, though it might take alittle lonmger to win.

Maybe with the new crop, maybe with another shooter (sampson is a shooter), and not just athletic guys, we could spread the defense alot alittle. We'll see better results then with his first recruits. Be patient, but not 5, 6 years patient. Hopefully we'll be rewarded

Choice # 3: Let him get whatever kids he can get from the 2016 class and let him coach them next year per his contract. Make a decision at the end of next year. Then you've got an even larger body of work, both recruiting and game coaching, by which to judge him.

 

[Knight]

Put the tar and feathers away. Lavin coached a good game tonite.

 

[mjmaherjr]

I wish this thread could just be frozen or at least until we have no chance of going .500 in conference

 

[MJDinkins]

This thread for the most part....

Schadenfreude, monotony, and miserable f__ks.

 

[ras]

Welcome back MJ. Haven't seen your posts here for a long time,

 

[Andrew]

Missed Dinkins. Where is Fordham 96?

 

[Jnaw17]

This thread for the most part....

Schadenfreude, monotony, and miserable f__ks.

Mr. Dinkins, welcome back! Great to see you on the board again.

 

[simplyred]

Usome people on these boards are gonna have strokes (one per person) when Lavin gets extended. :woohoo: