New SJU President: Rev. Brian J. Shanley, OP, President of Providence College

[quote="Mike Zaun" post=403665]We are nowhere near PC in terms of academic perception right now. We accept almost all students who apply even with poor GPA's for undergrad. PC is quite selective. I have family who went there and I've been there several times. It's more like a VIllanova/BC type. Could be their cousin. Kids from rich families, great students, take academics seriously and emphasis on diversity comes after standards are met. Here it seems we just want to help 1st generation college students from poor backgrounds. That's a nice mission, but our academics will always be poor the longer that goes on. As I've said many times, our undergrad selectivity is a joke. We have pretty good graduate programs though and the standards are higher there than typical grad schools in the area. SJ requires interviews and GRE exams. Adelphi, Hofstra, etc. don't. So we are able to keep a bit of prestige in graduate studies.[/quote]



Mike, why does it have to be poor kids and 1st generation college students? What about the poor performing Catholic High School graduates who use St Johns as a fail safe option? Have you even considered that they may be the problem? Your view of the academic problems at ST Johns is extremely "classist". It is very easy to blame those who are not from those same cultural background as you for the problems that the university is facing.
 
[quote="Knight" post=404031][quote="panther2" post=404025][quote="Beast of the East" post=404010][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=404008]When all is said and done , there is NO Reason why St John ‘s should not crack the US News and World Report too 100 schools ! It’s a Goal , Fr Shanley should set to achieve .[/quote]

Well, there is a big reason. If we continue to admit 40% of the student body which is Pell eligible and as a group are not as academically qualified as their peers, there is no chance we could crack the top 100. We can however elevate high academics, perhaps by the creation of an honors college like Macaulay honors college in CUNY. Hofstra has about 1300 students admitted across all majors into its honors college, which is a large % of their overall student population. So long as we retain a strong mission to the poor in the manner we do it, 4 year and 6 year graduation rates will lag and keep us lower in the ratings.[/quote]



Beast, I happen to disagree with your Pell Grant statement being the only reason. It appears to be very "classist", as if there is a corollary between income and intelligence. I could just as easily say that the reason St Johns will not reach the Top 100 is because they accept Catholic High School graduates who were in the bottom half of their graduating class and used St Johns as a fail safe option.

Instead of trying to place blame on a particular group of students, I hope our new President focuses on how we can enhance our services to improve the educational experience and outcome for all of our students.[/quote]

Does SJU still have an Associates Degree (2 yr) program?[/quote]

Panther, I suspect you are reading into it what you want. First of all I did not say it is the only reason.

UCLA had 11,186 Pell recipients in 2018-2019, UCONN 6,258, NYU 5448, and U Wisconsin Madison 4559. Among elite schools, Stanford 1133, Notre Dame 918, Harvard 1251, Boston College 1328, George Washington 1755 as example.

St. John's had 4744, and it's fair to say that not many were accepted at those schools.

Academic preparedness to take on college is a huge problem across the board in this country. 1/3 of all incoming freshmen in the US have been mandated to take remedial reading, which you cannot even call it that anymore because it has been deemed to stigmatize students. High schools such as Hempstead HS on Long Island has a 50% graduation rate. Nationally by socioeconomic class as few as 16% of 8th grade boys and girl are reading at grade level. I don't believe that problem has been seriously addressed, and I've spent a lot of my time studying it and I'm trying to get traction at the University to sponsor literacy programs.

But what I do believe is that we are not attracting higher performing Pell recipients, and when it is such a huge percentage of our student population, their lower graduation rates affect the overall rating of the university. I've had some discussion with influential people at the university around the topic of providing adequate support to Pell recipients who have economic hardships that the average student doesn't face.

FWIW, Providence college had just 595 Pell recipients. Although they are a much smaller school, the % of Pell recipients of the overall student population is much lower. I would guess that when offering Pell students admission, they are more selective than SJU has been, the same way the elite schools I listed are.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=404042][quote="Knight" post=404031][quote="panther2" post=404025][quote="Beast of the East" post=404010][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=404008]When all is said and done , there is NO Reason why St John ‘s should not crack the US News and World Report too 100 schools ! It’s a Goal , Fr Shanley should set to achieve .[/quote]

Well, there is a big reason. If we continue to admit 40% of the student body which is Pell eligible and as a group are not as academically qualified as their peers, there is no chance we could crack the top 100. We can however elevate high academics, perhaps by the creation of an honors college like Macaulay honors college in CUNY. Hofstra has about 1300 students admitted across all majors into its honors college, which is a large % of their overall student population. So long as we retain a strong mission to the poor in the manner we do it, 4 year and 6 year graduation rates will lag and keep us lower in the ratings.[/quote]



Beast, I happen to disagree with your Pell Grant statement being the only reason. It appears to be very "classist", as if there is a corollary between income and intelligence. I could just as easily say that the reason St Johns will not reach the Top 100 is because they accept Catholic High School graduates who were in the bottom half of their graduating class and used St Johns as a fail safe option.

Instead of trying to place blame on a particular group of students, I hope our new President focuses on how we can enhance our services to improve the educational experience and outcome for all of our students.[/quote]

Does SJU still have an Associates Degree (2 yr) program?[/quote]

Panther, I suspect you are reading into it what you want. First of all I did not say it is the only reason.

UCLA had 11,186 Pell recipients in 2018-2019, UCONN 6,258, NYU 5448, and U Wisconsin Madison 4559. Among elite schools, Stanford 1133, Notre Dame 918, Harvard 1251, Boston College 1328, George Washington 1755 as example.

St. John's had 4744, and it's fair to say that not many were accepted at those schools.

Academic preparedness to take on college is a huge problem across the board in this country. 1/3 of all incoming freshmen in the US have been mandated to take remedial reading, which you cannot even call it that anymore because it has been deemed to stigmatize students. High schools such as Hempstead HS on Long Island has a 50% graduation rate. Nationally by socioeconomic class as few as 16% of 8th grade boys and girl are reading at grade level. I don't believe that problem has been seriously addressed, and I've spent a lot of my time studying it and I'm trying to get traction at the University to sponsor literacy programs.

But what I do believe is that we are not attracting higher performing Pell recipients, and when it is such a huge percentage of our student population, their lower graduation rates affect the overall rating of the university. I've had some discussion with influential people at the university around the topic of providing adequate support to Pell recipients who have economic hardships that the average student doesn't face.

FWIW, Providence college had just 595 Pell recipients. Although they are a much smaller school, the % of Pell recipients of the overall student population is much lower. I would guess that when offering Pell students admission, they are more selective than SJU has been, the same way the elite schools I listed are.[/quote]



I only read what you wrote.
 
[quote="19854ever" post=403271]An upgrade for sure I just hope and pray he can fix St. John's.

He seems like a young 62 and more personable and relatable than Fr. Donald J. Harrington. JSJ thanks for posting the interview on here great stuff: Also a President who actually had succces running a fellow Big East institution, a definete plus.

The following are some issues that SJU has and really needs to be addressed in no particular order:

1 .) What is the schools Covid 19 strategy going forward as it relates to on campus/distance learning? Which leads to another huge question should online learners get a tuition break?

2. ) Tuition is too darn high, the issue needs to be addressed/fixed etc. I have talked endlessly about this over the last 15 years on here but the problem only gets worse, is it moral for a Catholic University to put 22 years olds in $100,000 and more in debt ? How should the school address this ? How does SJU get a good student away from going to SUNY school?

3.) How will he fundraise, can he do what he did up at PC?

4.) Academics, can SJU improve its academic rankings while keeping with the Vincentian mission? I like how he talked about the first two years at PC lays the groundwork(THE, PHI, and ENG courses etc) can that model be applied to all schools within SJU? Can the University move to more STEM degrees?

5.) Conservatives can they be allowed to speak at St. John's anymore? or will they be shunned by the woke politically correct crowd? Can they have a voice like the liberals have a voice? Will he be fair and provide equal time for both sides, while maintaining respect towrds Catholic values?

6.) Carnesseca Arena? is it worth upgrading? Should we keep our MSG contract? or do we make the Belmont Arena our new home? What about the Barclays Center? Where will we play our mens basketball games when/if the world gets back to normal?

7.) Can he get Mike Repole back in the fold?

Thats all I got for now more will come up for sure in the future. Everyone on here feel free to ask your questions or what you would like to see addressed by Fr. Shanley.

l hope he will read this thread and hoefully maybe do an online zoom q and a.[/quote]

Can't vouch for the accuracy of this article, but if true, I think it provides your answer to #5.

[URL]https://www.golocalprov.com/news/shanleys-departure-from-pc-forced-by-dominican-superior[/URL]

Here's one more:

[URL]https://www.google.com/amp/s/w...college-professor-attacked-over-diversity?amp[/URL]

None of the information in the 2 articles come as a shock to me, since most religious orders have kicked their conservative followers to the curb. With the Jesuits being the front runners.
 
Last edited:
[quote="panther2" post=404045][quote="Beast of the East" post=404042][quote="Knight" post=404031][quote="panther2" post=404025][quote="Beast of the East" post=404010][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=404008]When all is said and done , there is NO Reason why St John ‘s should not crack the US News and World Report too 100 schools ! It’s a Goal , Fr Shanley should set to achieve .[/quote]

Well, there is a big reason. If we continue to admit 40% of the student body which is Pell eligible and as a group are not as academically qualified as their peers, there is no chance we could crack the top 100. We can however elevate high academics, perhaps by the creation of an honors college like Macaulay honors college in CUNY. Hofstra has about 1300 students admitted across all majors into its honors college, which is a large % of their overall student population. So long as we retain a strong mission to the poor in the manner we do it, 4 year and 6 year graduation rates will lag and keep us lower in the ratings.[/quote]



Beast, I happen to disagree with your Pell Grant statement being the only reason. It appears to be very "classist", as if there is a corollary between income and intelligence. I could just as easily say that the reason St Johns will not reach the Top 100 is because they accept Catholic High School graduates who were in the bottom half of their graduating class and used St Johns as a fail safe option.

Instead of trying to place blame on a particular group of students, I hope our new President focuses on how we can enhance our services to improve the educational experience and outcome for all of our students.[/quote]

Does SJU still have an Associates Degree (2 yr) program?[/quote]

Panther, I suspect you are reading into it what you want. First of all I did not say it is the only reason.

UCLA had 11,186 Pell recipients in 2018-2019, UCONN 6,258, NYU 5448, and U Wisconsin Madison 4559. Among elite schools, Stanford 1133, Notre Dame 918, Harvard 1251, Boston College 1328, George Washington 1755 as example.

St. John's had 4744, and it's fair to say that not many were accepted at those schools.

Academic preparedness to take on college is a huge problem across the board in this country. 1/3 of all incoming freshmen in the US have been mandated to take remedial reading, which you cannot even call it that anymore because it has been deemed to stigmatize students. High schools such as Hempstead HS on Long Island has a 50% graduation rate. Nationally by socioeconomic class as few as 16% of 8th grade boys and girl are reading at grade level. I don't believe that problem has been seriously addressed, and I've spent a lot of my time studying it and I'm trying to get traction at the University to sponsor literacy programs.

But what I do believe is that we are not attracting higher performing Pell recipients, and when it is such a huge percentage of our student population, their lower graduation rates affect the overall rating of the university. I've had some discussion with influential people at the university around the topic of providing adequate support to Pell recipients who have economic hardships that the average student doesn't face.

FWIW, Providence college had just 595 Pell recipients. Although they are a much smaller school, the % of Pell recipients of the overall student population is much lower. I would guess that when offering Pell students admission, they are more selective than SJU has been, the same way the elite schools I listed are.[/quote]



I only read what you wrote.[/quote]

Then your deductive reasoning is off. There are 6.9 million pell recipients. All universities accept them. They span all ethnicities and races and levels 9f academic prowess so to conclude that my post degrades any one group of people is just false.
 
I currently have a freshman at PC, my two oldest girls were accepted but choose Fairfield. After hearing Father Shanley speak on 5 or 6 occasions I can't help but think this a homerun for St. John's. We were very disappointed to hear he wouldn't be at PC for our experience.
 
Panther, there are tons of cultural explanations for why first generation students may not be as successful. I'm not saying we shouldn't accept them...we should because it's part of our mission. But I think we should seriously scale back if it's bringing the entire university down substantially. I had several classmates at SJ who were first in their families to attend college and/or grad school. 3 of them dropped out or were politely pushed out after not taking it seriously enough. Just one example of course, but I would often stay late and arrive early to study with a study group and they were never interested in joining us when we asked. I think they could've done it if they worked hard enough...but they weren't ready for it. Unfortunately that is probably not uncommon among such students. If you don't have a family that stresses education or has high expectations for academics, you are more likely to struggle. If I wasn't pushed like I was by my family, I would've dropped out of HS after my father passed. My family simply did not allow me to fall into the abyss and for that I am very thankful. Of course economics are part of it, no doubt. But culture is also a huge factor.

[URL]https://www.theatlantic.com/ed...re-faced-by-first-generation-students/384139/[/URL]
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=404062]Panther, there are tons of cultural explanations for why first generation students may not be as successful. I'm not saying we shouldn't accept them...we should because it's part of our mission. But I think we should seriously scale back if it's bringing the entire university down substantially. I had several classmates at SJ who were first in their families to attend college and/or grad school. 3 of them dropped out or were politely pushed out after not taking it seriously enough. Just one example of course, but I would often stay late and arrive early to study with a study group and they were never interested in joining us when we asked. I think they could've done it if they worked hard enough...but they weren't ready for it. Unfortunately that is probably not uncommon among such students. If you don't have a family that stresses education or has high expectations for academics, you are more likely to struggle. If I wasn't pushed like I was by my family, I would've dropped out of HS after my father passed. My family simply did not allow me to fall into the abyss and for that I am very thankful. Of course economics are part of it, no doubt. But culture is also a huge factor.

[URL]https://www.theatlantic.com/ed...re-faced-by-first-generation-students/384139/[/URL][/quote]

There is absolutely no doubt that success in academics not only starts in the home, but is hugely influenced by home life. IMO it has nothing to do with race and/or ethnicity, and little to do with finances. I've know plenty of kids from lower middle class and poor backgrounds who were excellent students. I will take it a step further and say that i did not know one minority student in my grade school, high school or at St. john's who did not do well in school. The common denominator being at least one strong parent, and usually two, who stressed eduction.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=404055][quote="panther2" post=404045][quote="Beast of the East" post=404042][quote="Knight" post=404031][quote="panther2" post=404025][quote="Beast of the East" post=404010][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=404008]When all is said and done , there is NO Reason why St John ‘s should not crack the US News and World Report too 100 schools ! It’s a Goal , Fr Shanley should set to achieve .[/quote]

Well, there is a big reason. If we continue to admit 40% of the student body which is Pell eligible and as a group are not as academically qualified as their peers, there is no chance we could crack the top 100. We can however elevate high academics, perhaps by the creation of an honors college like Macaulay honors college in CUNY. Hofstra has about 1300 students admitted across all majors into its honors college, which is a large % of their overall student population. So long as we retain a strong mission to the poor in the manner we do it, 4 year and 6 year graduation rates will lag and keep us lower in the ratings.[/quote]



Beast, I happen to disagree with your Pell Grant statement being the only reason. It appears to be very "classist", as if there is a corollary between income and intelligence. I could just as easily say that the reason St Johns will not reach the Top 100 is because they accept Catholic High School graduates who were in the bottom half of their graduating class and used St Johns as a fail safe option.

Instead of trying to place blame on a particular group of students, I hope our new President focuses on how we can enhance our services to improve the educational experience and outcome for all of our students.[/quote]

Does SJU still have an Associates Degree (2 yr) program?[/quote]

Panther, I suspect you are reading into it what you want. First of all I did not say it is the only reason.

UCLA had 11,186 Pell recipients in 2018-2019, UCONN 6,258, NYU 5448, and U Wisconsin Madison 4559. Among elite schools, Stanford 1133, Notre Dame 918, Harvard 1251, Boston College 1328, George Washington 1755 as example.

St. John's had 4744, and it's fair to say that not many were accepted at those schools.

Academic preparedness to take on college is a huge problem across the board in this country. 1/3 of all incoming freshmen in the US have been mandated to take remedial reading, which you cannot even call it that anymore because it has been deemed to stigmatize students. High schools such as Hempstead HS on Long Island has a 50% graduation rate. Nationally by socioeconomic class as few as 16% of 8th grade boys and girl are reading at grade level. I don't believe that problem has been seriously addressed, and I've spent a lot of my time studying it and I'm trying to get traction at the University to sponsor literacy programs.

But what I do believe is that we are not attracting higher performing Pell recipients, and when it is such a huge percentage of our student population, their lower graduation rates affect the overall rating of the university. I've had some discussion with influential people at the university around the topic of providing adequate support to Pell recipients who have economic hardships that the average student doesn't face.

FWIW, Providence college had just 595 Pell recipients. Although they are a much smaller school, the % of Pell recipients of the overall student population is much lower. I would guess that when offering Pell students admission, they are more selective than SJU has been, the same way the elite schools I listed are.[/quote]



I only read what you wrote.[/quote]

Then your deductive reasoning is off. There are 6.9 million pell recipients. All universities accept them. They span all ethnicities and races and levels 9f academic prowess so to conclude that my post degrades any one group of people is just false.[/quote]



There was absolutely nothing to deduce, you stated , 'as long as we continue to have 40% os students receiving Pell Grants, we will not be top 100". This statement speaks for itself.
 
Agree Monte...I wish this were stressed more. It's not about race or even socioeconomics completely, but culture. Google "Tiger Moms" regarding certain Asian cultures where they demand excellence from their children...maybe to absurd levels, but still it's a net positive obviously. One of my good friends came from a family that would consider an 88 a bad grade and would be forced to go to extra help. He had to do push ups when he misbehaved. Again, maybe a bit excessive, but high standards nonetheless. He ended up in an Ivy League school. His siblings attended Ivy League schools, West Point, Naval Academy, etc. other very prestigious schools. Very competitive family. I also grew up with a guy down the block I went to school with (white guy) and he came from a broken home and his mother did not care about his academics. He's currently unemployed and trying to get by. As a society, we need to take much more responsibility for our decisions and our children. It almost always starts at home.
 
[quote="panther2" post=404077][quote="Beast of the East" post=404055][quote="panther2" post=404045][quote="Beast of the East" post=404042][quote="Knight" post=404031][quote="panther2" post=404025][quote="Beast of the East" post=404010][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=404008]When all is said and done , there is NO Reason why St John ‘s should not crack the US News and World Report too 100 schools ! It’s a Goal , Fr Shanley should set to achieve .[/quote]

Well, there is a big reason. If we continue to admit 40% of the student body which is Pell eligible and as a group are not as academically qualified as their peers, there is no chance we could crack the top 100. We can however elevate high academics, perhaps by the creation of an honors college like Macaulay honors college in CUNY. Hofstra has about 1300 students admitted across all majors into its honors college, which is a large % of their overall student population. So long as we retain a strong mission to the poor in the manner we do it, 4 year and 6 year graduation rates will lag and keep us lower in the ratings.[/quote]



Beast, I happen to disagree with your Pell Grant statement being the only reason. It appears to be very "classist", as if there is a corollary between income and intelligence. I could just as easily say that the reason St Johns will not reach the Top 100 is because they accept Catholic High School graduates who were in the bottom half of their graduating class and used St Johns as a fail safe option.

Instead of trying to place blame on a particular group of students, I hope our new President focuses on how we can enhance our services to improve the educational experience and outcome for all of our students.[/quote]

Does SJU still have an Associates Degree (2 yr) program?[/quote]

Panther, I suspect you are reading into it what you want. First of all I did not say it is the only reason.

UCLA had 11,186 Pell recipients in 2018-2019, UCONN 6,258, NYU 5448, and U Wisconsin Madison 4559. Among elite schools, Stanford 1133, Notre Dame 918, Harvard 1251, Boston College 1328, George Washington 1755 as example.

St. John's had 4744, and it's fair to say that not many were accepted at those schools.

Academic preparedness to take on college is a huge problem across the board in this country. 1/3 of all incoming freshmen in the US have been mandated to take remedial reading, which you cannot even call it that anymore because it has been deemed to stigmatize students. High schools such as Hempstead HS on Long Island has a 50% graduation rate. Nationally by socioeconomic class as few as 16% of 8th grade boys and girl are reading at grade level. I don't believe that problem has been seriously addressed, and I've spent a lot of my time studying it and I'm trying to get traction at the University to sponsor literacy programs.

But what I do believe is that we are not attracting higher performing Pell recipients, and when it is such a huge percentage of our student population, their lower graduation rates affect the overall rating of the university. I've had some discussion with influential people at the university around the topic of providing adequate support to Pell recipients who have economic hardships that the average student doesn't face.

FWIW, Providence college had just 595 Pell recipients. Although they are a much smaller school, the % of Pell recipients of the overall student population is much lower. I would guess that when offering Pell students admission, they are more selective than SJU has been, the same way the elite schools I listed are.[/quote]



I only read what you wrote.[/quote]

Then your deductive reasoning is off. There are 6.9 million pell recipients. All universities accept them. They span all ethnicities and races and levels 9f academic prowess so to conclude that my post degrades any one group of people is just false.[/quote]



There was absolutely nothing to deduce, you stated , 'as long as we continue to have 40% os students receiving Pell Grants, we will not be top 100". This statement speaks for itself.[/quote]

Yes, that's exactly what I wrote, but your reasoning in conflating it into anything beyond that reality is just wrong. It's 100% correct that our Pell students overall have lower 4 year and 6 year graduation rates than non-Pell students, and that we aren't being as selective as we should when it comes to offering them admission.

Pell grants covers maximum of $6345 based on a number of factors including expected family contribution towards education. This is only a small part of tuition, room and board at SJU. The rest is made up of grants and scholarships and student loans.

When we admit a Pell student who doesn't get a degree, everyone loses. Grants and scholarships come from donations, so donor money is wasted. The university's reputation and ranking is lowered. For the student, they are left with a large student loan that will be difficult to repay. Imagine attending college as a Pell recipient to make a better life than your parents, and being left with no degree and a debt that puts you in much worse shape overall.

I'm pretty certain Harvard, Stanford doesn't have a big problem there. I'm also confident that Molloy (1158),
Adelphi (1664), and Hofstra (1571) don't have the same issue with graduation rates of Pell students. I'd also guess that Providence, with 595 Pell students and a pretty good ranking also doesn't have a problem.

It's not a Pell problem. IT's a St. John's problem in not being as selective as they should, to the detriment of the university, donors, and most of all, students.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=404062]Panther, there are tons of cultural explanations for why first generation students may not be as successful. I'm not saying we shouldn't accept them...we should because it's part of our mission. But I think we should seriously scale back if it's bringing the entire university down substantially. I had several classmates at SJ who were first in their families to attend college and/or grad school. 3 of them dropped out or were politely pushed out after not taking it seriously enough. Just one example of course, but I would often stay late and arrive early to study with a study group and they were never interested in joining us when we asked. I think they could've done it if they worked hard enough...but they weren't ready for it. Unfortunately that is probably not uncommon among such students. If you don't have a family that stresses education or has high expectations for academics, you are more likely to struggle. If I wasn't pushed like I was by my family, I would've dropped out of HS after my father passed. My family simply did not allow me to fall into the abyss and for that I am very thankful. Of course economics are part of it, no doubt. But culture is also a huge factor.

[URL]https://www.theatlantic.com/ed...re-faced-by-first-generation-students/384139/[/URL][/quote]

Did not mean to dismiss economics, but at the grade school level, which is the foundation on which a good education is built, the difference between a child who goes on to academic success, and a child who doesn't, almost always starts in the home. Like you, I had many white friends-mostly of Sicilian descent and from working class families-who dropped out of high school. Education was simply not stressed in the home. Not surprisingly, most of those kids went on to struggle in life.
 
[quote="Monte" post=404093][quote="Mike Zaun" post=404062]Panther, there are tons of cultural explanations for why first generation students may not be as successful. I'm not saying we shouldn't accept them...we should because it's part of our mission. But I think we should seriously scale back if it's bringing the entire university down substantially. I had several classmates at SJ who were first in their families to attend college and/or grad school. 3 of them dropped out or were politely pushed out after not taking it seriously enough. Just one example of course, but I would often stay late and arrive early to study with a study group and they were never interested in joining us when we asked. I think they could've done it if they worked hard enough...but they weren't ready for it. Unfortunately that is probably not uncommon among such students. If you don't have a family that stresses education or has high expectations for academics, you are more likely to struggle. If I wasn't pushed like I was by my family, I would've dropped out of HS after my father passed. My family simply did not allow me to fall into the abyss and for that I am very thankful. Of course economics are part of it, no doubt. But culture is also a huge factor.

[URL]https://www.theatlantic.com/ed...re-faced-by-first-generation-students/384139/[/URL][/quote]

Did not mean to dismiss economics, but at the grade school level, which is the foundation on which a good education is built, the difference between a child who goes on to academic success, and a child who doesn't, almost always starts in the home. Like you, I had many white friends-mostly of Sicilian descent and from working class families-who dropped out of high school. Education was simply not stressed in the home. Not surprisingly, most of those kids went on to struggle in life.[/quote]

The biggest problem we have with education in this country is literacy. Be 4th grade a kid who is 2 or more years behind grade level in reading will never catch up (statistically). The largest issue with literacy is parental engagement. Kids who are not read to by a parent each night beginning as toddlers and extending thru ages 7 or 8 are the most at risk. This has been cited as the number one reason so many kids in America cannot read.
If you cannot read at grade level math scores suffer dramatically as well.

I received a long email a few weeks ago from an administrator at St. Johns. Her husband is an administrator at an underperforming high school where reading levels have sagged. As far as math she wrote that students simply cannot find the math in a problem if they cannot read well.

If we do not correct the literacy problem in America, competing nations will continue to pass us academically. In my opinion we should concentrate our efforts in the formative years of reading. The path through high school and college is almost fruitless unless kids can read at grade level.
 
Last edited:
Literacy is step 1, I agree.

Step 2 is teaching kids how to think, which unfortunately our K-12 educational system (and a fair number of colleges) have failed to do basically forever.
 
[quote="lawmanfan" post=404099]Literacy is step 1, I agree.

Step 2 is teaching kids how to think, which unfortunately our K-12 educational system (and a fair number of colleges) have failed to do basically forever.[/quote]

This is a great point, LMF. I've known the Dean of the Honors college at Hofstra very well - he and his wife are both brilliant, and his kids went to Harvard. I asked him for advice about one of my kids who just selected English as one of a dual major, and I was somewhat concerned. His point was that at a great school, liberal arts majors learn critical thinking. I had also corresponded with Father Peter at Villanova about liberal arts majors there. He said because of critical thinking skills learned in that program, those graduates are actually in greater market demand than their highly regarded business school grads. So you are dead on about critical thinking.

But to your point, consider literacy as the fundamental ability in academics. Without it, all other attempts to create successful college grads will fail and will be too little too late.
 
Last edited:
[quote="lawmanfan" post=404099]Literacy is step 1, I agree.

Step 2 is teaching kids how to think, which unfortunately our K-12 educational system (and a fair number of colleges) have failed to do basically forever.[/quote]

Or can only allow students to think in one philosophical direction.
 
Might have mentioned a few yrs ago, but at Marist which is up there in selectivity with Providence now, there was an English class all freshmen had to take as part of the core. A football player was called on to read part of a passage, and he literally could not read. At a fairly selective college. I felt terrible for him, but we also put these kids in embarrassing situations. Students should be at schools commensurate with their skills. It's just like trade school. Many look down on it and I'll be honest I used to. But then I grew up and watched guys making 3x my salary who went to trade schools even though I have a solid paying career and a Masters from SJ. Suggesting someone go the route of trade school is not a slap in the face, and neither should finding a college that fits your skills. I would have looked just as silly as that kid at Harvard or even Duke. That's why I'd never be accepted there and rightfully so!
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=404108]Might have mentioned a few yrs ago, but at Marist which is up there in selectivity with Providence now, there was an English class all freshmen had to take as part of the core. A football player was called on to read part of a passage, and he literally could not read. At a fairly selective college. I felt terrible for him, but we also put these kids in embarrassing situations. Students should be at schools commensurate with their skills. It's just like trade school. Many look down on it and I'll be honest I used to. But then I grew up and watched guys making 3x my salary who went to trade schools even though I have a solid paying career and a Masters from SJ. Suggesting someone go the route of trade school is not a slap in the face, and neither should finding a college that fits your skills. I would have looked just as silly as that kid at Harvard or even Duke. That's why I'd never be accepted there and rightfully so![/quote]

For wealthy parents, getting their kid in to "elite" school(Ivies, Duke, Stanford, etc) gives them bragging rights. For middle class and poor parents, it gives them an assurance, and the comfort that comes along with it, that their child is most likely set for life. I'm speaking in general terms, of course.
 
Last edited:
[quote="lawmanfan" post=404099]Literacy is step 1, I agree.

Step 2 is teaching kids how to think, which unfortunately our K-12 educational system (and a fair number of colleges) have failed to do basically forever.[/quote]

This is why mentoring is so important.

The earlier we can reach kids who are not members of the lucky sperm club (i.e. families with financial resources) the better

If one has the time, you can truly make a difference in a kid's life
 
[quote="jerseyshorejohnny" post=404113][quote="lawmanfan" post=404099]Literacy is step 1, I agree.

Step 2 is teaching kids how to think, which unfortunately our K-12 educational system (and a fair number of colleges) have failed to do basically forever.[/quote]

This is why mentoring is so important.

The earlier we can reach kids who are not members of the lucky sperm club (i.e. families with financial resources) the better

If one has the time, you can truly make a difference in a kid's life[/quote]

JSJ, I know you have been walking the walk for quite some time. Where I am putting my efforts is to try to start with a solid start (reading, literacy), rather than trying to build a house on a shaky foundation. (sounds biblical, no? It is.)
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top