New SJU President: Rev. Brian J. Shanley, OP, President of Providence College

I think there is too much effort pushing kids to go to college. We need tradesmen to do the things that allow an economy to operate and thrive. Too often unskilled laborers are used to do work they are marginally qualified to do. More trade schools are needed to train these workers.
 
[quote="Knight" post=404122]I think there is too much effort pushing kids to go to college. We need tradesmen to do the things that allow an economy to operate and thrive. Too often unskilled laborers are used to do work they are marginally qualified to do. More trade schools are needed to train these workers.[/quote]

I am 100,000% behind that. Jobs training in the trades, especially in poorer areas could change the trajectory of lives. I say this all the time to people I know - when was the last time you had contracting work done in your home (plumbing, electrician, carpentry, masonry) and there was a person of color on the crew? In my area, just about every contractor employs latino immigrants for skilled labor jobs. To a person, they have been skilled, well mannered, and hard working. But I can't help thinking that these jobs could be going to Americans instead if training was provided. I'm a big proponent of Tim Scott's economic empowerment zones, and the economic empowerment plans. I hope the new administration continues it.
 
For lots of reasons I did not learn how to study until grad school. I am still grateful to the people who did not throw away this once poor student. One of the things I encountered during my graduate studies was the idea of cultural valuing, is learning and mastery of new information treated as a high value behavior, and to what end?

One of my professors at Northeastern taught about the learning that took place as the country of Nigeria industrialized and the populace was introduced to and taught skills requiring academic participation in order to use industrial equipment. Most of the students came to their new learning task with a history of "eidetic imagery" (photographic memory) which was of great value to survival in the African bush, and lost that skill as they progressed toward mastery of the new skills necessary to work in industry.

I suspect that if either of my very accomplished professional sons has a car break down on the way to an important meeting, they will never get there. The world needs all kinds of mastery and an awareness that different people with different kinds of mastery are not necessarily better or worse, just different.
 
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[quote="Knight" post=404122]I think there is too much effort pushing kids to go to college. We need tradesmen to do the things that allow an economy to operate and thrive. Too often unskilled laborers are used to do work they are marginally qualified to do. More trade schools are needed to train these workers.[/quote]

Absolutely. I think one of the main reasons this is not pursued more is because of the stereotype that getting dirty means you make less than guys wearing ties. I'm guilty of that as well. Funny enough, when I was a little kid my mother stopped to fill up at a gas station (full service) with me in the back. The guy had to give her change, and he takes out a huge wad of cash. After leaving, I said to my mother, "I want to be a gas station person" to which she laughed, because she obviously knew I saw the cash. Anyway, those guys in the subways with the grime on them working on the electric, carving tunnels, working on roads, etc. often make well over 6 figures especially if they're in a union. You can do that in your early 20's after training but no student loans ontop of it. Compare that to some kid who just graduated college at 22 or 23, then needs a few certificates if not an advanced degree, comes out at 25-26 with 100k in student loan debt, and works as an account executive for some startup for 45k. Just because they may be more brash, sound like Joe Pesci at times, and have some dirt on their hands does NOT mean they don't make more than me. I learned that the hard way!
 
[quote="Knight" post=404122]I think there is too much effort pushing kids to go to college. We need tradesmen to do the things that allow an economy to operate and thrive. Too often unskilled laborers are used to do work they are marginally qualified to do. More trade schools are needed to train these workers.[/quote]

My oldest friend in the world-since first day of first grade-has spearheaded the "Apprenticeship Program" for the US DOL on and off for many years. Amongst other things, the Apprenticeship Program takes young people, schools and trains them in the various trades(IE HVAC, electric, plumbing, etc), arranges internships with large corporations, and places them in permanent jobs. Oftentimes with the same company as the internship. He travels all over the country, to many of the poorest neighborhoods(of all ethnicities), and he is constantly telling me how difficult it is for him convince both young people and their parents that this is a viable option for so many youngsters. My friend has 3 masters, so he is not someone who does not understand the value of a formal education. However, as someone who came from a family of bakers growing up in Williamsburg, he also saw first hand how learning a trade can elevate not just an individual, but an entire family. I saw it as well, since my family was in the Pastry business. From my experience as someone who had been in the construction business for 30 years, I can tell you that few of this younger generation are interested in pursuing a career in the trades. The ones that do, can set themselves and their family up for life.
 
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[quote="Mike Zaun" post=404108]Might have mentioned a few yrs ago, but at Marist which is up there in selectivity with Providence now, there was an English class all freshmen had to take as part of the core. A football player was called on to read part of a passage, and he literally could not read. At a fairly selective college. I felt terrible for him, but we also put these kids in embarrassing situations. Students should be at schools commensurate with their skills. It's just like trade school. Many look down on it and I'll be honest I used to. But then I grew up and watched guys making 3x my salary who went to trade schools even though I have a solid paying career and a Masters from SJ. Suggesting someone go the route of trade school is not a slap in the face, and neither should finding a college that fits your skills. I would have looked just as silly as that kid at Harvard or even Duke. That's why I'd never be accepted there and rightfully so![/quote]



Mike, I totally agree with you about trade schools. I know that in Texas, JUCO's have courses built around various trades. It seems as if all 2 year or community colleges should teach the various trades along with math, english, and whatever else is necessary.

This is the first year that my granddaughter has not been in Public School. We just felt that if she wanted a quality education, she need to go to a Catholic High School. We were fortunate in that I had a friend who is a Middle School Principal, and he helped her get into an elementary school in Jamaica Estates and the Middle School where he is the Principal, in Fresh Meadows.He got his PhD in Education from St Johns and is also an Adjunct Professor there. His school is a National Blue Ribbon School. However, the school is woefully lacking in supplies. Students are asked to bring their own soap, toilet paper, hand sanitizer, etc.

Charter schools are supposed to be the big thing now, The problem that I have is that charter schools can only accommodate 10% of the students, what happens to the rest of them. The school system needs to be dismantled and put back together from the ground up.
 
[quote="panther2" post=404160][quote="Mike Zaun" post=404108]Might have mentioned a few yrs ago, but at Marist which is up there in selectivity with Providence now, there was an English class all freshmen had to take as part of the core. A football player was called on to read part of a passage, and he literally could not read. At a fairly selective college. I felt terrible for him, but we also put these kids in embarrassing situations. Students should be at schools commensurate with their skills. It's just like trade school. Many look down on it and I'll be honest I used to. But then I grew up and watched guys making 3x my salary who went to trade schools even though I have a solid paying career and a Masters from SJ. Suggesting someone go the route of trade school is not a slap in the face, and neither should finding a college that fits your skills. I would have looked just as silly as that kid at Harvard or even Duke. That's why I'd never be accepted there and rightfully so![/quote]



Mike, I totally agree with you about trade schools. I know that in Texas, JUCO's have courses built around various trades. It seems as if all 2 year or community colleges should teach the various trades along with math, english, and whatever else is necessary.

This is the first year that my granddaughter has not been in Public School. We just felt that if she wanted a quality education, she need to go to a Catholic High School. We were fortunate in that I had a friend who is a Middle School Principal, and he helped her get into an elementary school in Jamaica Estates and the Middle School where he is the Principal, in Fresh Meadows.He got his PhD in Education from St Johns and is also an Adjunct Professor there. His school is a National Blue Ribbon School. However, the school is woefully lacking in supplies. Students are asked to bring their own soap, toilet paper, hand sanitizer, etc.

Charter schools are supposed to be the big thing now, The problem that I have is that charter schools can only accommodate 10% of the students, what happens to the rest of them. The school system needs to be dismantled and put back together from the ground up.[/quote]

Congrats Panther, that's great news and hope she does well! Yes, I know people who work in private schools. The teachers get half or less of what a similar public school teacher gets. It's disgusting. Many private school teachers need to waitress or bartend on the side well into their later years just to make ends meet. The lack of supplies follows suit, but at certain private schools, the education is still worth it. I believe parents should have a real choice. I saw a documentary years ago about kids in Harlem born into poverty and they literally have to win lotteries to get a spot in the new charter schools. When they won, they would cry and embrace their parents knowing they'd get a quality education. When they lost, you could see any hope fade away in their eyes. I see first hand teachers who get paid $140k to do the bare minimum nearing retirement and teachers who are just starting out, have a real passion and want to change the world making 55-60k starting. If you offered young teachers the ability to make $150k if they were really amazing at what they did, you best believe you could get them into private schools. The only thing I would say is that I think test scores are put way too much on teachers and not enough on students and their families. Of course the teacher has some responsibility, but many students never show up and/or never do homework. That can't be on teacher alone.
 
I am not sure how a topic about congratulating the Board of Trustees on such a fine hire as Fr. Shaley turned into a thesis of Point/CounterPoint on Pell Grants and some off-handed comments dismissing some fine schools that don't happen to have graduate programs. But....... whatever, I've heard that old saw a hundred times before. (Dr. Anthony Fauci did ok being a Classics major at a small elite liberal arts college. He is prouder of his undergrad than his medical school education.)

Personally, as a proud St. John's double graduate, I am just happy that Fr. Shanley is our new President.

I also hope that more alumni give back to alma mater as a result of this hire.
 
[quote="BrookJersey Redmen" post=404203]I am not sure how a topic about congratulating the Board of Trustees on such a fine hire as Fr. Shaley turned into a thesis of Point/CounterPoint on Pell Grants and some off-handed comments dismissing some fine schools that don't happen to have graduate programs. But....... whatever, I've heard that old saw a hundred times before. (Dr. Anthony Fauci did ok being a Classics major at a small elite liberal arts college. He is prouder of his undergrad than his medical school education.)

Personally, as a proud St. John's double graduate, I am just happy that Fr. Shanley is our new President.

I also hope that more alumni give back to alma mater as a result of this hire.[/quote]

I knew you would weigh in. I wrote that in response to a comment made that HC and BC are essentially equal schools. They are not, and I pointed out why in terms of course offerings (and rankings too). HC is highly selective, and any kid that goes there is a highly qualified student.

But here is how they compare according to US News and World Report Rankings:


Boston College Rankings
See where this school lands in our other rankings to get a bigger picture of the institution's offerings.


#35 in National Universities (tie)
#8 in Best Undergraduate Teaching
#42 in Best Value Schools
#25 in Most Innovative Schools (tie)
#259 in Top Performers on Social Mobility (tie)

Business Programs
#12 in Accounting
#7 in Finance (tie)

#13 in First-Year Experiences (tie)

#4 in Service Learning

#16 in Study Abroad (tie)

#44 in Undergraduate Research/Creative Projects (tie)

College of the Holy Cross Rankings

#36 in National Liberal Arts Colleges (tie)
#99 in Best Value Schools
#133 in Top Performers on Social Mobility (tie)
#24 in Service Learning (tie)

For the record, all three of my kids applied to Holy Cross. I liked it better than each of them, and they chose Villanova (2) and Boston College.

You left out Justice Clarence Thomas and Hardballs Chris Matthews when you mentioned St. Fauci as notable grads. It's a great school, definitely.
 
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[quote="otis" post=404794]It is nice to read about other’s outside impressions of Higher Education but the below linked article entitled “Colleges Grapple with Financial Realities” that appears in the current edition of The Chronicle of Higher Education provides a more realistic view of issues President Shanley will face at our beloved St. John’s.

[URL]https://www.chronicle.com/article/colleges-grapple-with-grim-financial-realities[/URL][/quote]

This is why Bobby G. deserves far more credit than some alumni give him credit for. He has navigated us through some difficult waters and managed to make some quality hires in administration. He didn't check all the boxes, but fiscal management is a strength of his, and we needed that perhaps more than anything. It will be interesting to see if Father Shanley can rouse a largely dormant donor base.

There are several schools that have really done a great job raising funds, and some of them invest a lot of money in upgrading talent in the development (fundraising) area. Providence college reported an endowment of $234 million to US News and World Report. They have less than 5000 students, and endowment is not the equivalent of the ability to raise funds. Villanova raises an enormous amount annually (4x St John's annually with a much smaller donor base). While their endowment is similar, their annual spend from dollars raised is much greater. JSJ correctly points out that we aren't Villanova in terms of our alumni base ability to donate, but also acknowledges that we can do much better. It will be interesting to see how Father Shanley does in this area, which is critical to an upwards trajectory for our school.
 
Will President Bobby G. become part of the board of trustees on his retirement?
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=404149][quote="Knight" post=404122]I think there is too much effort pushing kids to go to college. We need tradesmen to do the things that allow an economy to operate and thrive. Too often unskilled laborers are used to do work they are marginally qualified to do. More trade schools are needed to train these workers.[/quote]

Absolutely. I think one of the main reasons this is not pursued more is because of the stereotype that getting dirty means you make less than guys wearing ties. I'm guilty of that as well. Funny enough, when I was a little kid my mother stopped to fill up at a gas station (full service) with me in the back. The guy had to give her change, and he takes out a huge wad of cash. After leaving, I said to my mother, "I want to be a gas station person" to which she laughed, because she obviously knew I saw the cash. Anyway, those guys in the subways with the grime on them working on the electric, carving tunnels, working on roads, etc. often make well over 6 figures especially if they're in a union. You can do that in your early 20's after training but no student loans ontop of it. Compare that to some kid who just graduated college at 22 or 23, then needs a few certificates if not an advanced degree, comes out at 25-26 with 100k in student loan debt, and works as an account executive for some startup for 45k. Just because they may be more brash, sound like Joe Pesci at times, and have some dirt on their hands does NOT mean they don't make more than me. I learned that the hard way![/quote]

MZ, it's not just about what they earn. The guy or woman with the dirt on their hands may be the one donating the repairs to the rectory, or building the grandstand for the high school baseball field, or asking the shop teacher to keep an eye out for someone who would make a good apprentice. Character does not always wear a business suit.
 
[quote="panther2" post=404160][quote="Mike Zaun" post=404108]Might have mentioned a few yrs ago, but at Marist which is up there in selectivity with Providence now, there was an English class all freshmen had to take as part of the core. A football player was called on to read part of a passage, and he literally could not read. At a fairly selective college. I felt terrible for him, but we also put these kids in embarrassing situations. Students should be at schools commensurate with their skills. It's just like trade school. Many look down on it and I'll be honest I used to. But then I grew up and watched guys making 3x my salary who went to trade schools even though I have a solid paying career and a Masters from SJ. Suggesting someone go the route of trade school is not a slap in the face, and neither should finding a college that fits your skills. I would have looked just as silly as that kid at Harvard or even Duke. That's why I'd never be accepted there and rightfully so![/quote]



Charter schools are supposed to be the big thing now, The problem that I have is that charter schools can only accommodate 10% of the students, what happens to the rest of them. The school system needs to be dismantled and put back together from the ground up.[/quote]

In the worth mentioning comment, a really huge St. John;s contributor who is often maligned in the NR hire story has used his own money to open a charter high school in Brooklyn for girls. The challenges are enormous because of their lack of academic preparedness and social problems. But I give him and his entire family enormous credit for the undertaking.

I don't know if you agree, but I am 100% for school vouchers which would allow the poorest American to choose primary schools where kids are performing better. Catholic school kids already outperform public school kids from similar backgrounds. My wife is a public school teacher, but we are both for anything that would improve schooling for the poorest kids in our country. Our course, as Zaun said and the data supports, parents being actively involved in a kid's success is also a key factor.
 
Beast, as you already know I respectfully disagree about Villanova and BC comparisons to Holy Cross --(so many different ways to look at it)-- but to each his own.

Holy Cross sits in the top 5 or 6 schools in the country with % of alumni giving back. 46% or thereabouts. That says a lot about a school right there.

If Fr. Shanley can (and I think he will) get SJU up from the near bottom of those percentages (don't we hover around 5%?) and say each Alum gives according to their means, we will be on a great road, (even if that is at the 10-15 % of the group, or 30% like Villanova).

Our school is big and there are many in that group that are financially capable of giving back, for whatever reason they need to be motivated to do so. That motivation will come from Father Brian J. Shanley, O.P.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=404887]
.......... Catholic school kids already outperform public school kids from similar backgrounds..........
[/quote]
———
Not necessarily true through NY State ot nationwide.
 
[quote="BrookJersey Redmen" post=404911]Beast, as you already know I respectfully disagree about Villanova and BC comparisons to Holy Cross --(so many different ways to look at it)-- but to each his own.

Holy Cross sits in the top 5 or 6 schools in the country with % of alumni giving back. 46% or thereabouts. That says a lot about a school right there.

If Fr. Shanley can (and I think he will) get SJU up from the near bottom of those percentages (don't we hover around 5%?) and say each Alum gives according to their means, we will be on a great road, (even if that is at the 10-15 % of the group, or 30% like Villanova).

Our school is big and there are many in that group that are financially capable of giving back, for whatever reason they need to be motivated to do so. That motivation will come from Father Brian J. Shanley, O.P.[/quote]

Today is Giving Tuesday:

https://twitter.com/stjohnsalumni/status/1333852476408213507?s=20
 
[quote="BrookJersey Redmen" post=404938]DONE.[/quote]

We don't really disagree. HC and BC's Morrissey school of liberal arts about both great liberal arts schools. Fair enough?
 
I think having school choice is a positive. Some privates offer better alternatives to some public schools, especially in inner city areas. However, I will say that I know teachers in catholic schools and the dynamic is such that standards are lower than public since parents directly pay the tuition and thus almost always get their way (pushing students along, giving them better scores than deserved). Now, obviously public schools are funded by taxpayers, so technically parents pay public teacher salaries too, but not as directly. I've heard great things about Xavier, Chaminade, St. Anthony's, etc. however I have heard poor things about some others. You have a lot of high-powered families sending their kids to these schools, often lawyers, doctors, etc. so they have more power than the teacher. Administration will force the teacher to do whatever the parent wants, regardless of fairness. Teachers there often teach outside their content/certification area e.g. an Art teacher may be teaching Earth Science too. That's how they save on cost. Teachers in these schools make $30k and can easily burn out quickly with helicopter parents obsessing over every detail, while being asked to wear many hats. So there are upsides and downsides based on individual schools...choice can only help.
 
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