NET Rankings 2021-22

I hope they do makeup the Marquette game.  We're 3-0 in the makeup games this year.  Maybe that's why Marquette doesn't want to play it!
 
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Andrew post=458881 said:
Mean Gene post=458876 said:
Adam, how much will the fact that we won by 34 points positively affect our NET ranking? 

Our Pomeroy moved up to 64 for whatever that is worth.
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I didn't check kenpom this morning, but I remember right after the Xavier win the Kenpom was 74 and then when NET updated the following day our NET was 78.  So if there's similar results when the NET updates tomorrow should be in the high 60s, which would be great to make a jump that large for a Q3 win.
 
Making Plays post=458914 said:
Andrew post=458881 said:
Mean Gene post=458876 said:
Adam, how much will the fact that we won by 34 points positively affect our NET ranking? 

Our Pomeroy moved up to 64 for whatever that is worth.
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I didn't check kenpom this morning, but I remember right after the Xavier win the Kenpom was 74 and then when NET updated the following day our NET was 78.  So if there's similar results when the NET updates tomorrow should be in the high 60s, which would be great to make a jump that large for a Q3 win.
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I would expect our NET to be in the low 70s tomorrow. I'll be pleasantly surprised if we get higher than that.
 
Mean Gene post=458876 said:
Adam, how much will the fact that we won by 34 points positively affect our NET ranking? 
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Earlier in this thread I noted that Villanova dominated Butler at home (82-42) which caused their NET to move up from #6 to #3 I believe, and Butler's NET to decrease despite them playing a very strong team on the road. Of course there could have been factors from other games too that day, but it was still really impressive movement for Nova.

I used the Nova/Butler game to criticize St. John's at the time because we had not blown out any teams besides Mississippi Valley St on opening night. Amazing job tonight, I think we'll see a nice 9 spots increase to #69.
 
Adam post=458938 said:
Mean Gene post=458876 said:
Adam, how much will the fact that we won by 34 points positively affect our NET ranking? 
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Earlier in this thread I noted that Villanova dominated Butler at home (82-42) which caused their NET to move up from #6 to #3 I believe, and Butler's NET to decrease despite them playing a very strong team on the road. Of course there could have been factors from other games too that day, but it was still really impressive movement for Nova.

I used the Nova/Butler game to criticize St. John's at the time because we had not blown out any teams besides Mississippi Valley St on opening night. Amazing job tonight, I think we'll see a nice 9 spots increase to #69.
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Great call Adam!  we are now 68!
 
Hey Adam, or anyone else ……

Which wins and losses in the below games this weekend (Saturday & Sunday February 19th & 20th) will most benefit the NET ranking of our beloved St. John’s men’s basketball team ?  Thank you.

Saturday
Xavier at UConn
Illinois at Michigan St.
Georgetown at Villanova
DePaul at Seton Hall
Washington at UCLA
Illinois at Michigan State   
TCU at Baylor   
Boston College at Syracuse
Texas Tech at Texas   
Alabama at Kentucky
Ole Miss at Georgia
Auburn at Florida
Saint Louis at Davidson   
LSU at South Carolina   
Northwestern at Minnesota   
Tennessee at Arkansas   
North Carolina at Virginia Tech
Virginia at Miami
Florida State at Duke   
Drake at Loyola (Chicago)   
Duquesne at St. Bonaventure   
Utah State at Boise State   
Texas A&M at Vanderbilt   
Utah at California   
Georgia Tech at Pitt
Kansas at West Virginia   
Colorado State at UNLV
Oregon at Arizona
BYU at Saint Mary's   
Colorado at Stanford   
San Diego State at Fresno State

Sunday
Providence at Butler
Marquette at Creighton
Rutgers at Purdue
Washington St. at USC
Michigan at Wisconsin   
Houston at Wichita State
Temple at Cincinnati 
George Mason at Fordham   
Marquette at Creighton   
Memphis at SMU
Rutgers at Purdue 
New Mexico at San Jose State
Washington State at USC   
Mississippi State at Missouri

.
 
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Wow. Another big jump. 68 is really good considering where they were a week ago.

Nothing matters unless they keep winning but I hadn’t really looked at the bubble until last night. It’s shockingly weak at this point. Exceptionally weak. There’s opportunity for a bunch of teams in SJUs position. I’m not so sure they necessarily need to win out anymore. If they can win 3 of the last 4 I think they’ll be easily In the conversation heading into the BET. They need to keep the “elimination game” mindset because they’re still very much out at this point and I’m certainly not confident they’ll make it but it’s way closer than I realized. 
 
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otis post=458951 said:
Hey Adam, or anyone else ……

Which wins and losses in the below games this weekend (Saturday & Sunday February 19th & 20th) will most benefit the NET ranking of our beloved St. John’s men’s basketball team ?  Thank you.

Saturday
Xavier at UConn
Illinois at Michigan St.
Georgetown at Villanova
DePaul at Seton Hall
Washington at UCLA
Illinois at Michigan State   
TCU at Baylor   
Boston College at Syracuse
Texas Tech at Texas   
Alabama at Kentucky
Ole Miss at Georgia
Auburn at Florida
Saint Louis at Davidson   
LSU at South Carolina   
Northwestern at Minnesota   
Tennessee at Arkansas   
North Carolina at Virginia Tech
Virginia at Miami
Florida State at Duke   
Drake at Loyola (Chicago)   
Duquesne at St. Bonaventure   
Utah State at Boise State   
Texas A&M at Vanderbilt   
Utah at California   
Georgia Tech at Pitt
Kansas at West Virginia   
Colorado State at UNLV
Oregon at Arizona
BYU at Saint Mary's   
Colorado at Stanford   
San Diego State at Fresno State

Sunday
Providence at Butler
Marquette at Creighton
Rutgers at Purdue
Washington St. at USC
Michigan at Wisconsin   
Houston at Wichita State
Temple at Cincinnati 
George Mason at Fordham   
Marquette at Creighton   
Memphis at SMU
Rutgers at Purdue 
New Mexico at San Jose State
Washington State at USC   
Mississippi State at Missouri

.
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In general I'd:
#1 Root for any teams we've played OOC, regardless of whether we beat them
#2 Root for any Big East teams that we've beaten or still have games against. For example, Xavier is #24 in NET and we want them to remain Q1 for our home game. Root for them and against UConn.
#3 Root against bubble teams who we haven't played 
 
Adam post=458976 said:
Making Plays post=458947 said:
Adam post=458946 said:
Making Plays - I never said those teams were as good as Butler, but on paper they count the same. Creighton will be a great test especially given how our last game with them went. 

Beast - huh? Why would you assume I missed the game? I watched the whole thing and enjoyed it. I'm just cautiously optimistic because I know how quickly things can change.

Edit: Beast deleted their post I guess. 
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Do they count the same?  Because NET jumped up 10 spots to 68 beating Butler.  Any win, especially a home game, that jumps you up 10 spots in NET this late in the season is really good win to be excited about in my book.  

I don't think NET would have jumped up 10 spots beating Florida Atlantic by 30 at home.  I believe Butler's metrics of how well that had been playing and St. John's having such good efficiency against them played a big role in such a big jump against a Q3 team at home.  This game also had a big jump in Kenpom, at 64 there right now.

Also, I don't want you to take it the wrong way like I'm starting an argument, I'm just saying that wasn't a small victory to win in that fashion against a team that was trending upwards and just beat a ranked team a few days ago.
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I already covered in the NET thread last night about how big of a win this was, not because of how strong Butler is but because of how much we beat them by. I predicted we'd increase by 9 spots and we did so by 10. Butler is still a bottom tier Big East team and this was at home. A lot of things went right for us that hadn't in previous games and pretty much everyone had a solid game. Do I expect that to 100% continue going forward, especially against better competition? Definitely not. Posh will have off nights as he often has. Champ will have off nights as he often has, especially when better teams double team him. Teams will get hot from 3 as they often have. Etc. This was an A+ game from us.

All I was saying is I need to see this performance (or at least anywhere close to it) repeated against better competition. That means hitting our free throws, Champ performing well, defending the 3. hitting our 3s, hitting out layups, etc. One game in isolation doesn't mean much to me. Literally everything went right, including Posh's near half-court buzzer beater. Beat Creighton (regardless of margin) and then I'll start believing. Again, they destroyed us last game so that'd say a lot about whether St. John's has improved.

And to answer your questions about NET... yes. had we beat a team with a similar NET at home it would've jumped us 10 spots in the NET. I'm unsure why you think it wouldn't. This is mid-February, not mid-December. In general teams won't have huge increases or decreases going forward unless they go on big runs. In fact, Butler dropped 13 spots overnight. Butler was ranked #118 last night, so teams just ahead of them were #115 UNI, #116 Middle Tenn, and #117 Seattle U. I don't really care whether Butler is better than those teams or not, that's irrelevant in terms of our resume. Right now they're all a dozen+ spots ahead of Butler in the NET.

So again, yes. In the eyes of the Committee, which is what matters most at this point, beating Butler would absolutely mean the same thing as beating those teams. They are all Q3. Butler isn't getting special treatment because of the conference they're in, and it's very possible they'll continue dropping as they did last night. 

Beat Creighton and then I'll start believing. I don't put much stock into one or two games, as great as they were. I also expected to easily win this one (as I said in the pre-game thread). We have a lot of ground to make up and I want to see how this team performs with some increased expectations and competition.
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I'm not going to get into a long post back and forth,  I'll keep mine short and simple.  All I pointed out was that was a good win in helping NET and beating a team that had been playing good basketball, they had won 2 straight including just beating a really good ranked Marquette team, it's not the same as beating a random mid-major team with a similar NET that just has been stacking up Q3/Q4 wins and rarely play anybody good.
 
Making Plays - yes it was a great win for our NET, but end of the day it does count the same on our resume as had we beat Seattle U by a similar margin (that's one of the original points I was making that you responded to). If you think it means something more that's fine, but the team needs to prove it first during these next couple weeks. At least for myself based on our history. 

St. John's for a very long time now (I'd say after Lavin’s first year) has never really lived up to expectations whenever they've had any. Virtually every time they've gone on a run they've managed to disappoint shortly after. CMA year 1 for instance we had a great OOC capped off by the Arizona win but then did awful in Big East play. Year 2 we did well during the middle of Big East play but didn't finish strong enough. Year 3 we've had high expectations preseason but couldn't win any major games for a couple months. 

I did like what I saw, but do I really think issues we've seen all year such as layups, FT shooting, and 3 point defense suddenly will be super improved as they were vs Butler? No. I am cautiously optimistic though that the team can now potentially make a run to the Tournament. Maybe 25% odds which is way higher than just a few days ago. 

The expectations are back. The games will all be tougher going forward. Let's see how they do. Glad they've at least started to make things interesting. Best they possibly could've done these past two games. 
 
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Adam post=459089 said:
Making Plays - yes it was a great win for our NET, but end of the day it does count the same on our resume as had we beat Seattle U by a similar margin (that's one of the original points I was making that you responded to). If you think it means something more that's fine, but the team needs to prove it first during these next couple weeks. At least for myself based on our history. 

 
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Adam this is simply not true.  By your logic Oregon (72 NET) and Towson (74 NET) are considered by the committee the same quality of game because both on the road would be considered a Q1 game, but if you are trying to make the tournament and rescheduling a game, which one of these teams are you choosing?  Which one looks like a better win to the committee?   The answer is Oregon.  According to bracketmatrix Oregon has have an average seeding of 11.66 in the brackets they are in.  Towson just 2 spots higher in the NET has an average of 13.98 in the brackets they are in, that's a big difference, for just 2 NET spots. 

There's a reason why after the auto qualifers that the committee just doesn't seed according to NET, because there has to be a use of common sense to know not all teams that are similar NET are the same quality of wins.  It's just used a tool, it's not the end all be all to determine how good a team is.
 
Making Plays- Yes... I'm well aware that the Committee doesn't select/seed based only on NET. Things like Q1/Q2/Q3/Q4 record also matter. That has nothing to do with our win over Butler.

Butler was a Q3 game. That's it. It counts exactly the same as had we beat any other team with a similar NET. The Committee is definitely not going to look very in-depth at Butler's resume from this one random Q3 game on our resume and reward us. They will only factor in Butler's NET and our margin of victory. Keep in mind, this would have been a bad loss had we lost. We were rewarded in NET due to our margin of victory, but nothing more than that.

If we're on the bubble the Committee won't say "hey St. John's and Oregon are really close on the bubble... but St. John's beat #131 Butler at home and Oregon beat #132 mid-major at home... let's put in St. John's over Oregon because Butler has a better resume than the mid-major despite their similar NET!" (just an example, I didn't look up Oregon's resume).

By the end of the season this game won't even be top half of our schedule in terms of challenge/relevancy for the Committee. It'd be an impossible task anyway for the Committee to look in-depth at the resumes of every team we've played. That's why we have NET to begin with, so when they evaluate our resume they can assign a number for our opponents and thus they only have to focus on our resume and not also the resumes of the 32 teams we've played simultaneously.

So yes, Butler counts exactly the same on our resume as any other team who would finish with a similar NET. Again, it was a great win... I just want to see more before getting my hopes up. Not sure why you're placing so much emphasis on this one Q3 game though because the rest of our games (besides maybe round 1 of the BET) should all be Q1 or Q2. If you're confident in the team then things will work out.
 
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Making Plays post=459111 said:
Knight post=459110 said:
Please stay on topic.
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Isn't how the Butler game affects NET and resume considered post game thoughts of the Butler game?
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It’s better suited for net rankings 2021-22
 
Boy, the way our guys have been playing, you'd love to have those 6 games vs. UCONN, Villanova, and Providence back, especially with a healthy team.

 
 
Beast of the East post=459132 said:
Boy, the way our guys have been playing, you'd love to have those 6 games vs. UCONN, Villanova, and Providence back, especially with a healthy team.

Is there any chance we still reschedule the home game with Marquette?


 
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