Matt A

[paultzman]

It seems like we do with Muhammad which would make sense as he is a 4 star recruit which is what we should be targeting. Its ok to chase the 5 stars as eventually one might drop to us but we need to get solid players like Ponds, Lovett, Owens, Ahmed and hopefully Simon and Clark. I have doubts about the OSNA kid we have a verbal from but he fits the profile as well if he is better than Yawke who also fit the profile,

In my opinion, Ponds and Lovett are 6 star players -- I recognize there is no such thing. What I mean by that is that at the college level, they are just as good as nearly any five star player and more likely to hang around bc they don't have the size.

They are if all you care about is offense, unfortunately there are two sides of the court. Ponds is a poor defender and LoVett absolutely horrible.

I agree they both have room for significant improvement. However, they are freshman, and Ponds is leading the Big East in steals.

Steals are nice but Ponds is often the last man back on defense. Drives me crazy!

Not saying it is the total solution to defensive improvement, but I would be very surprised if they don't bring in an experienced college coach to complement current staff with expertise in that regard. As Logen has noted often, player effort is key ingredient in achieving that, but IMO adding an AC with that knowledge can't hurt. I know Slice situation presents monetary challenges at this point, but maybe there is someone out there who may come relatively cheap & help address the problem. We do have an open slot.

By open slot, do you mean a similar role to Richmond last year, i.e., somebody who can work with the players but can't coach during games? Bc unless somebody leaves, we presently have theee assistant coaches.

Perhaps they can reshuffle the deck.

 

[billthetruth]

It seems like we do with Muhammad which would make sense as he is a 4 star recruit which is what we should be targeting. Its ok to chase the 5 stars as eventually one might drop to us but we need to get solid players like Ponds, Lovett, Owens, Ahmed and hopefully Simon and Clark. I have doubts about the OSNA kid we have a verbal from but he fits the profile as well if he is better than Yawke who also fit the profile,

In my opinion, Ponds and Lovett are 6 star players -- I recognize there is no such thing. What I mean by that is that at the college level, they are just as good as nearly any five star player and more likely to hang around bc they don't have the size.

They are if all you care about is offense, unfortunately there are two sides of the court. Ponds is a poor defender and LoVett absolutely horrible.

I agree they both have room for significant improvement. However, they are freshman, and Ponds is leading the Big East in steals.

Justin Simon should help immediately with the perimeter defense even if it takes a little longer for the rust to come off the offensive end. A much need dimension for this team IMHO

 

[Anthony Mattia]

It seems like we do with Muhammad which would make sense as he is a 4 star recruit which is what we should be targeting. Its ok to chase the 5 stars as eventually one might drop to us but we need to get solid players like Ponds, Lovett, Owens, Ahmed and hopefully Simon and Clark. I have doubts about the OSNA kid we have a verbal from but he fits the profile as well if he is better than Yawke who also fit the profile,

In my opinion, Ponds and Lovett are 6 star players -- I recognize there is no such thing. What I mean by that is that at the college level, they are just as good as nearly any five star player and more likely to hang around bc they don't have the size.

They are if all you care about is offense, unfortunately there are two sides of the court. Ponds is a poor defender and LoVett absolutely horrible.

I agree they both have room for significant improvement. However, they are freshman, and Ponds is leading the Big East in steals.

Steals are nice but Ponds is often the last man back on defense. Drives me crazy!

Not saying it is the total solution to defensive improvement, but I would be very surprised if they don't bring in an experienced college coach to complement current staff with expertise in that regard. As Logen has noted often, player effort is key ingredient in achieving that, but IMO adding an AC with that knowledge can't hurt. I know Slice situation presents monetary challenges at this point, but maybe there is someone out there who may come relatively cheap & help address the problem. We do have an open slot.

I thought Mitch took the last spot, or are you referring to the special assistant position that cannot recruit? Also, in regard to the defense of our guards, while I appreciate the steals and live ball turnovers that they cause, if they don't get the steal, they wind up out of position. I understand gambling sometimes, but they are both quick enough to stay in front of most anyone if they just play straight up defense. This would keep our bigs in better position to rebound as well because they would not have to continuously go for the blocked shot.

 

[SJU14]

It seems like we do with Muhammad which would make sense as he is a 4 star recruit which is what we should be targeting. Its ok to chase the 5 stars as eventually one might drop to us but we need to get solid players like Ponds, Lovett, Owens, Ahmed and hopefully Simon and Clark. I have doubts about the OSNA kid we have a verbal from but he fits the profile as well if he is better than Yawke who also fit the profile,

In my opinion, Ponds and Lovett are 6 star players -- I recognize there is no such thing. What I mean by that is that at the college level, they are just as good as nearly any five star player and more likely to hang around bc they don't have the size.

They are if all you care about is offense, unfortunately there are two sides of the court. Ponds is a poor defender and LoVett absolutely horrible.

I agree they both have room for significant improvement. However, they are freshman, and Ponds is leading the Big East in steals.

Steals are nice but Ponds is often the last man back on defense. Drives me crazy!

Not saying it is the total solution to defensive improvement, but I would be very surprised if they don't bring in an experienced college coach to complement current staff with expertise in that regard. As Logen has noted often, player effort is key ingredient in achieving that, but IMO adding an AC with that knowledge can't hurt. I know Slice situation presents monetary challenges at this point, but maybe there is someone out there who may come relatively cheap & help address the problem. We do have an open slot.

Trade Slice for Rice?

 

[paultzman]

It seems like we do with Muhammad which would make sense as he is a 4 star recruit which is what we should be targeting. Its ok to chase the 5 stars as eventually one might drop to us but we need to get solid players like Ponds, Lovett, Owens, Ahmed and hopefully Simon and Clark. I have doubts about the OSNA kid we have a verbal from but he fits the profile as well if he is better than Yawke who also fit the profile,

In my opinion, Ponds and Lovett are 6 star players -- I recognize there is no such thing. What I mean by that is that at the college level, they are just as good as nearly any five star player and more likely to hang around bc they don't have the size.

They are if all you care about is offense, unfortunately there are two sides of the court. Ponds is a poor defender and LoVett absolutely horrible.

I agree they both have room for significant improvement. However, they are freshman, and Ponds is leading the Big East in steals.

Steals are nice but Ponds is often the last man back on defense. Drives me crazy!

Not saying it is the total solution to defensive improvement, but I would be very surprised if they don't bring in an experienced college coach to complement current staff with expertise in that regard. As Logen has noted often, player effort is key ingredient in achieving that, but IMO adding an AC with that knowledge can't hurt. I know Slice situation presents monetary challenges at this point, but maybe there is someone out there who may come relatively cheap & help address the problem. We do have an open slot.

I thought Mitch took the last spot, or are you referring to the special assistant position that cannot recruit? Also, in regard to the defense of our guards, while I appreciate the steals and live ball turnovers that they cause, if they don't get the steal, they wind up out of position. I understand gambling sometimes, but they are both quick enough to stay in front of most anyone if they just play straight up defense. This would keep our bigs in better position to rebound as well because they would not have to continuously go for the blocked shot.

Mitch did, am referring to special assistant spot & either using that guy to help with individual, team instruction particularly on defense or shuffling deck and restoring Mitch to prior role perhaps. Just a thought.

 

[otis]

Mitch did, am referring to special assistant spot & either using that guy to help with individual, team instruction particularly on defense or shuffling deck and restoring Mitch to prior role perhaps. Just a thought.

see: Mike Rice

 

[logen]

It seems like we do with Muhammad which would make sense as he is a 4 star recruit which is what we should be targeting. Its ok to chase the 5 stars as eventually one might drop to us but we need to get solid players like Ponds, Lovett, Owens, Ahmed and hopefully Simon and Clark. I have doubts about the OSNA kid we have a verbal from but he fits the profile as well if he is better than Yawke who also fit the profile,

In my opinion, Ponds and Lovett are 6 star players -- I recognize there is no such thing. What I mean by that is that at the college level, they are just as good as nearly any five star player and more likely to hang around bc they don't have the size.

They are if all you care about is offense, unfortunately there are two sides of the court. Ponds is a poor defender and LoVett absolutely horrible.

I agree they both have room for significant improvement. However, they are freshman, and Ponds is leading the Big East in steals.

Ponds leads the BE in steals because he thinks playing defense means stealing the ball, as with blocked shots, fools gold. If you steal the ball while locking down on your man a la Gary Payton or Clyde, great, but that is not Ponds at all.

 

[logen]

It seems like we do with Muhammad which would make sense as he is a 4 star recruit which is what we should be targeting. Its ok to chase the 5 stars as eventually one might drop to us but we need to get solid players like Ponds, Lovett, Owens, Ahmed and hopefully Simon and Clark. I have doubts about the OSNA kid we have a verbal from but he fits the profile as well if he is better than Yawke who also fit the profile,

In my opinion, Ponds and Lovett are 6 star players -- I recognize there is no such thing. What I mean by that is that at the college level, they are just as good as nearly any five star player and more likely to hang around bc they don't have the size.

They are if all you care about is offense, unfortunately there are two sides of the court. Ponds is a poor defender and LoVett absolutely horrible.

I agree they both have room for significant improvement. However, they are freshman, and Ponds is leading the Big East in steals.

Steals are nice but Ponds is often the last man back on defense. Drives me crazy!

Not saying it is the total solution to defensive improvement, but I would be very surprised if they don't bring in an experienced college coach to complement current staff with expertise in that regard. As Logen has noted often, player effort is key ingredient in achieving that, but IMO adding an AC with that knowledge can't hurt. I know Slice situation presents monetary challenges at this point, but maybe there is someone out there who may come relatively cheap & help address the problem. We do have an open slot.

It certainly couldn't hurt but at the end of the day players play hard or they don't. They commit to playing defense or they don't. Al LoBalbo, all-time defensive genius guru, constantly preached desire, discipline, and even more desire. We have guys with offensive ability with great desire when the ball is in their hands and an "eh, whatever" attitude to the rest of the game. Hopefully when we fill out the roster and guys can earn pine time, this will change.

 

[monte]

It seems like we do with Muhammad which would make sense as he is a 4 star recruit which is what we should be targeting. Its ok to chase the 5 stars as eventually one might drop to us but we need to get solid players like Ponds, Lovett, Owens, Ahmed and hopefully Simon and Clark. I have doubts about the OSNA kid we have a verbal from but he fits the profile as well if he is better than Yawke who also fit the profile,

In my opinion, Ponds and Lovett are 6 star players -- I recognize there is no such thing. What I mean by that is that at the college level, they are just as good as nearly any five star player and more likely to hang around bc they don't have the size.

They are if all you care about is offense, unfortunately there are two sides of the court. Ponds is a poor defender and LoVett absolutely horrible.

I agree they both have room for significant improvement. However, they are freshman, and Ponds is leading the Big East in steals.

Steals are nice but Ponds is often the last man back on defense. Drives me crazy!

Not saying it is the total solution to defensive improvement, but I would be very surprised if they don't bring in an experienced college coach to complement current staff with expertise in that regard. As Logen has noted often, player effort is key ingredient in achieving that, but IMO adding an AC with that knowledge can't hurt. I know Slice situation presents monetary challenges at this point, but maybe there is someone out there who may come relatively cheap & help address the problem. We do have an open slot.

It certainly couldn't hurt but at the end of the day players play hard or they don't. They commit to playing defense or they don't. Al LoBalbo, all-time defensive genius guru, constantly preached desire, discipline, and even more desire. We have guys with offensive ability with great desire when the ball is in their hands and an "eh, whatever" attitude to the rest of the game. Hopefully when we fill out the roster and guys can earn pine time, this will change.

I see some guys on this team who, like some of Lavin's kids, are more concerned with showcasing thier individual offensive skills then they are in playing hard-nosed team oreinted basketball.

 

[fun]

Today I learned that Shamorie Ponds is no Gary Payton.

 

[Red.Fans]

Coaching / teaching defense is one thing but as a team I believe it exists at the level of philosophy so in that regard it comes from the head coach and has to be pervasive through everything that you do. It has to be at the core of your identity as a team starting at the top and resounded by your staff and players. You don't just fix it with more / different drills. I'd say every game this season we lost out on the 50/50 battle with maybe 2 or 3 games where we had a decent effort for most of the game. Owens was probably the only guy that shined in consistent hustle.

Rebounds, defense, 50/50 all point to an issue with motivation/hustle. The way we showed up for Providence epitomized the symptoms. Part of this is youth. Mental / physical maturity between an 18 yo vs guys 2-5 years older can be dramatic.

 

[logen]

Today I learned that Shamorie Ponds is no Gary Payton.

Come on, you can do better than that; you owe it all your fans sitting around with bated breath!!

 

[beast of the east]

It seems like we do with Muhammad which would make sense as he is a 4 star recruit which is what we should be targeting. Its ok to chase the 5 stars as eventually one might drop to us but we need to get solid players like Ponds, Lovett, Owens, Ahmed and hopefully Simon and Clark. I have doubts about the OSNA kid we have a verbal from but he fits the profile as well if he is better than Yawke who also fit the profile,

In my opinion, Ponds and Lovett are 6 star players -- I recognize there is no such thing. What I mean by that is that at the college level, they are just as good as nearly any five star player and more likely to hang around bc they don't have the size.

They are if all you care about is offense, unfortunately there are two sides of the court. Ponds is a poor defender and LoVett absolutely horrible.

I agree they both have room for significant improvement. However, they are freshman, and Ponds is leading the Big East in steals.

Steals are nice but Ponds is often the last man back on defense. Drives me crazy!

Ponds is always in the mix for rebounds. I am old school but we were always taught that when one guard penetrates, the other guard stays back for defense. Then again, there were peach baskets back then.

 

[Knight]

Coaching / teaching defense is one thing but as a team I believe it exists at the level of philosophy so in that regard it comes from the head coach and has to be pervasive through everything that you do. It has to be at the core of your identity as a team starting at the top and resounded by your staff and players. You don't just fix it with more / different drills. I'd say every game this season we lost out on the 50/50 battle with maybe 2 or 3 games where we had a decent effort for most of the game. Owens was probably the only guy that shined in consistent hustle.

Rebounds, defense, 50/50 all point to an issue with motivation/hustle. The way we showed up for Providence epitomized the symptoms. Part of this is youth. Mental / physical maturity between an 18 yo vs guys 2-5 years older can be dramatic.

Agree. Defense minded teams reflect the coach. It will also require better teamwork and working together on the court. There was very little success with our D this season with the exception of the times full court pressure was used. But once past halfcourt, there was little carryover.
Our guys need to learn how to prevent multiple shots on a possession by learning how to box out and get good position. Too often out of position on D.

 

[logen]

Coaching / teaching defense is one thing but as a team I believe it exists at the level of philosophy so in that regard it comes from the head coach and has to be pervasive through everything that you do. It has to be at the core of your identity as a team starting at the top and resounded by your staff and players. You don't just fix it with more / different drills. I'd say every game this season we lost out on the 50/50 battle with maybe 2 or 3 games where we had a decent effort for most of the game. Owens was probably the only guy that shined in consistent hustle.

Rebounds, defense, 50/50 all point to an issue with motivation/hustle. The way we showed up for Providence epitomized the symptoms. Part of this is youth. Mental / physical maturity between an 18 yo vs guys 2-5 years older can be dramatic.

Agree. Defense minded teams reflect the coach. It will also require better teamwork and working together on the court. There was very little success with our D this season with the exception of the times full court pressure was used. But once past halfcourt, there was little carryover.
Our guys need to learn how to prevent multiple shots on a possession by learning how to box out and get good position. Too often out of position on D.

And we are out of position too often because by and large our guards get beat consistently and our defense is always scrambling. Certainly coaching is part of the equation but I think the idea of a coach motivating players is much more difficult than many realize. It is difficult to teach heart, kind of like creating a leader out of someone with no innate leadership skill. You can mold, harness, direct desire but if it not there it is hard to create, especially in players who have played a thousand games by the time they get to college.

 

[L J S A]

Not saying it is the total solution to defensive improvement, but I would be very surprised if they don't bring in an experienced college coach to complement current staff with expertise in that regard. As Logen has noted often, player effort is key ingredient in achieving that, but IMO adding an AC with that knowledge can't hurt. I know Slice situation presents monetary challenges at this point, but maybe there is someone out there who may come relatively cheap & help address the problem. We do have an open slot.

I don't know how you don't do it. I'm sure Mitch is a swell guy, but he doesn't have a bunch of talented high schoolers who may want to follow him to college. Rice is worth the risk for that alone. But I personally think he brings much more to the table than built-in recruits.

Someone is going to snatch him up soon, and we may live to regret it if it's a local school.

 

[we are sju]

Coaching / teaching defense is one thing but as a team I believe it exists at the level of philosophy so in that regard it comes from the head coach and has to be pervasive through everything that you do. It has to be at the core of your identity as a team starting at the top and resounded by your staff and players. You don't just fix it with more / different drills. I'd say every game this season we lost out on the 50/50 battle with maybe 2 or 3 games where we had a decent effort for most of the game. Owens was probably the only guy that shined in consistent hustle.

Rebounds, defense, 50/50 all point to an issue with motivation/hustle. The way we showed up for Providence epitomized the symptoms. Part of this is youth. Mental / physical maturity between an 18 yo vs guys 2-5 years older can be dramatic.

Agree. Defense minded teams reflect the coach. It will also require better teamwork and working together on the court. There was very little success with our D this season with the exception of the times full court pressure was used. But once past halfcourt, there was little carryover.
Our guys need to learn how to prevent multiple shots on a possession by learning how to box out and get good position. Too often out of position on D.

And we are out of position too often because by and large our guards get beat consistently and our defense is always scrambling. Certainly coaching is part of the equation but I think the idea of a coach motivating players is much more difficult than many realize. It is difficult to teach heart, kind of like creating a leader out of someone with no innate leadership skill. You can mold, harness, direct desire but if it not there it is hard to create, especially in players who have played a thousand games by the time they get to college.

I am a Mullin guy but if a coach recruits kids then coaches them and there is a lack of effort the coach is the guy that takes the blame. For bringing them in and then not getting through to them. I blame the roster configuration more than anything but you can't absolve Mullin from everything.

 

[logen]

Coaching / teaching defense is one thing but as a team I believe it exists at the level of philosophy so in that regard it comes from the head coach and has to be pervasive through everything that you do. It has to be at the core of your identity as a team starting at the top and resounded by your staff and players. You don't just fix it with more / different drills. I'd say every game this season we lost out on the 50/50 battle with maybe 2 or 3 games where we had a decent effort for most of the game. Owens was probably the only guy that shined in consistent hustle.

Rebounds, defense, 50/50 all point to an issue with motivation/hustle. The way we showed up for Providence epitomized the symptoms. Part of this is youth. Mental / physical maturity between an 18 yo vs guys 2-5 years older can be dramatic.

Agree. Defense minded teams reflect the coach. It will also require better teamwork and working together on the court. There was very little success with our D this season with the exception of the times full court pressure was used. But once past halfcourt, there was little carryover.
Our guys need to learn how to prevent multiple shots on a possession by learning how to box out and get good position. Too often out of position on D.

And we are out of position too often because by and large our guards get beat consistently and our defense is always scrambling. Certainly coaching is part of the equation but I think the idea of a coach motivating players is much more difficult than many realize. It is difficult to teach heart, kind of like creating a leader out of someone with no innate leadership skill. You can mold, harness, direct desire but if it not there it is hard to create, especially in players who have played a thousand games by the time they get to college.

I am a Mullin guy but if a coach recruits kids then coaches them and there is a lack of effort the coach is the guy that takes the blame. For bringing them in and then not getting through to them. I blame the roster configuration more than anything but you can't absolve Mullin from everything.

Not absolving Mullin from anything, I have been very open about criticism of the team falls on both coaches and players. Was merely commenting on this idea that coaches can motivate players, I don't believe that is generally the case, I think the ability for coaches to get "through to them" is very much the exception, not the rule. Not that it never happens but it is not as common or as easy as many fans believe. Generally speaking, I think coaching is vastly overrated but I agree with you wholeheartedly recruiting the right players is key. And to expand, I don't mean coaching isn't important, it is, but getting the right players is way more of a factor than a coaches influence. Million of examples of how much better coaches are when they upgrade talent, from John Wooden to Coach K.

 

[we are sju]

Coaching / teaching defense is one thing but as a team I believe it exists at the level of philosophy so in that regard it comes from the head coach and has to be pervasive through everything that you do. It has to be at the core of your identity as a team starting at the top and resounded by your staff and players. You don't just fix it with more / different drills. I'd say every game this season we lost out on the 50/50 battle with maybe 2 or 3 games where we had a decent effort for most of the game. Owens was probably the only guy that shined in consistent hustle.

Rebounds, defense, 50/50 all point to an issue with motivation/hustle. The way we showed up for Providence epitomized the symptoms. Part of this is youth. Mental / physical maturity between an 18 yo vs guys 2-5 years older can be dramatic.

Agree. Defense minded teams reflect the coach. It will also require better teamwork and working together on the court. There was very little success with our D this season with the exception of the times full court pressure was used. But once past halfcourt, there was little carryover.
Our guys need to learn how to prevent multiple shots on a possession by learning how to box out and get good position. Too often out of position on D.

And we are out of position too often because by and large our guards get beat consistently and our defense is always scrambling. Certainly coaching is part of the equation but I think the idea of a coach motivating players is much more difficult than many realize. It is difficult to teach heart, kind of like creating a leader out of someone with no innate leadership skill. You can mold, harness, direct desire but if it not there it is hard to create, especially in players who have played a thousand games by the time they get to college.

I am a Mullin guy but if a coach recruits kids then coaches them and there is a lack of effort the coach is the guy that takes the blame. For bringing them in and then not getting through to them. I blame the roster configuration more than anything but you can't absolve Mullin from everything.

Not absolving Mullin from anything, I have been very open about criticism of the team falls on both coaches and players. Was merely commenting on this idea that coaches can motivate players, I don't believe that is generally the case, I think the ability for coaches to get "through to them" is very much the exception, not the rule. Not that it never happens but it is not as common or as easy as many fans believe. Generally speaking, I think coaching is vastly overrated but I agree with you wholeheartedly recruiting the right players is key. And to expand, I don't mean coaching isn't important, it is, but getting the right players is way more of a factor than a coaches influence. Million of examples of how much better coaches are when they upgrade talent, from John Wooden to Coach K.

I do not think this is specifically a Chris Mullin issue but seems to be a ST john's issue since Fran got fired. We seem to recruit an unbalanced roster. We have a team with 6-6 wing guys but no point guard and no shooters. Or we have a team where our best two players are 6 foot skinny guards and no front court players. Seems we are always missing a BIG something.

 

[Red.Fans]

Coaching / teaching defense is one thing but as a team I believe it exists at the level of philosophy so in that regard it comes from the head coach and has to be pervasive through everything that you do. It has to be at the core of your identity as a team starting at the top and resounded by your staff and players. You don't just fix it with more / different drills. I'd say every game this season we lost out on the 50/50 battle with maybe 2 or 3 games where we had a decent effort for most of the game. Owens was probably the only guy that shined in consistent hustle.

Rebounds, defense, 50/50 all point to an issue with motivation/hustle. The way we showed up for Providence epitomized the symptoms. Part of this is youth. Mental / physical maturity between an 18 yo vs guys 2-5 years older can be dramatic.

Agree. Defense minded teams reflect the coach. It will also require better teamwork and working together on the court. There was very little success with our D this season with the exception of the times full court pressure was used. But once past halfcourt, there was little carryover.
Our guys need to learn how to prevent multiple shots on a possession by learning how to box out and get good position. Too often out of position on D.

And we are out of position too often because by and large our guards get beat consistently and our defense is always scrambling. Certainly coaching is part of the equation but I think the idea of a coach motivating players is much more difficult than many realize. It is difficult to teach heart, kind of like creating a leader out of someone with no innate leadership skill. You can mold, harness, direct desire but if it not there it is hard to create, especially in players who have played a thousand games by the time they get to college.

I am a Mullin guy but if a coach recruits kids then coaches them and there is a lack of effort the coach is the guy that takes the blame. For bringing them in and then not getting through to them. I blame the roster configuration more than anything but you can't absolve Mullin from everything.

Not absolving Mullin from anything, I have been very open about criticism of the team falls on both coaches and players. Was merely commenting on this idea that coaches can motivate players, I don't believe that is generally the case, I think the ability for coaches to get "through to them" is very much the exception, not the rule. Not that it never happens but it is not as common or as easy as many fans believe. Generally speaking, I think coaching is vastly overrated but I agree with you wholeheartedly recruiting the right players is key. And to expand, I don't mean coaching isn't important, it is, but getting the right players is way more of a factor than a coaches influence. Million of examples of how much better coaches are when they upgrade talent, from John Wooden to Coach K.

100% - "right" players having to do with both talent and how they compliment the team. The other thing is character. Not saying they have to be pillars of virtue but that there is a particular type of character that contributes to team building. There are other types of character that may just not, regardless of what type of person they are otherwise.