Lavin parting ways with St.John's

[monte]

If on the court results and the recruiting been better, would Lavin had gotten his extension?

My opinion: Without a doubt. They didn't begrudge the money. They didn't want to pay this kind of money to not have a single outstanding season. Both NCAA bid seasons were accentuated by mid BE season runs, and losses in the BET and NCAA without a single good performance. Had he gone to an Elite 8, a sweet sixteen, and had a plus .500 ncaa record, he'd still be here.

Was it his fault that dj Kennedy was hurt in the be game against syracuse? That cost us that game plus a run I the big dance. Remember they changed our seeding due yo his injury.
was it his fault that obekpa smoked pot? They can't watch these idiots 24 hr a day.
is he to blame because jordan was a head case, not to mention harrison's first two hot head years?
was it his fault that Harkness and Sampson jumped to the nba?
I can go on. I don't think the school president has a clue as to what has happened. Now everyone wants mullin? mullin won't be passing or shooting. Living in the past won't bring st johns back. this program is dying fast, if it isn't already dead

Winners find solutions, losers find excuses.

 

[bamafan]

IMHO Lavin would have gotten his extension if IB signed with us in November. Even given Lavin's record and lack of post season success I believe the biggest detriment to his lack of an extension was the present state of the program and going into year 6 with a depleted roster. IB signs, Sampson commits and than probably Dilalo and a couple other recruits and I don't believe Lavin is gone. That is why I said at the time the IB decision was the biggest recruiting decision at SJU in like forever. It shaped the future of the program. Crazy isn't it that the choice of one 18 year old HS kid has such a bearing on things. It's like the new show on TV Slap about an adult who slaps a child of another couple and all the ramifications going forward.

 

[JohnnyFan]

If on the court results and the recruiting been better, would Lavin had gotten his extension?

My opinion: Without a doubt. They didn't begrudge the money. They didn't want to pay this kind of money to not have a single outstanding season. Both NCAA bid seasons were accentuated by mid BE season runs, and losses in the BET and NCAA without a single good performance. Had he gone to an Elite 8, a sweet sixteen, and had a plus .500 ncaa record, he'd still be here.

Was it his fault that dj Kennedy was hurt in the be game against syracuse? That cost us that game plus a run I the big dance. Remember they changed our seeding due yo his injury.
was it his fault that obekpa smoked pot? They can't watch these idiots 24 hr a day.
is he to blame because jordan was a head case, not to mention harrison's first two hot head years?
was it his fault that Harkness and Sampson jumped to the nba?
I can go on. I don't think the school president has a clue as to what has happened. Now everyone wants mullin? mullin won't be passing or shooting. Living in the past won't bring st johns back. this program is dying fast, if it isn't already dead

We would need a new thread to list all of the excuses.

 

[Jack Williams]

If on the court results and the recruiting been better, would Lavin had gotten his extension?

My opinion: Without a doubt. They didn't begrudge the money. They didn't want to pay this kind of money to not have a single outstanding season. Both NCAA bid seasons were accentuated by mid BE season runs, and losses in the BET and NCAA without a single good performance. Had he gone to an Elite 8, a sweet sixteen, and had a plus .500 ncaa record, he'd still be here.

Was it his fault that dj Kennedy was hurt in the be game against syracuse? That cost us that game plus a run I the big dance. Remember they changed our seeding due yo his injury.
was it his fault that obekpa smoked pot? They can't watch these idiots 24 hr a day.
is he to blame because jordan was a head case, not to mention harrison's first two hot head years?
was it his fault that Harkness and Sampson jumped to the nba?
I can go on. I don't think the school president has a clue as to what has happened. Now everyone wants mullin? mullin won't be passing or shooting. Living in the past won't bring st johns back. this program is dying fast, if it isn't already dead

We would need a new thread to list all of the excuses.

He pretty much just listed them all. My response to his post is simple:

St John's wants and needs a winning team. With Lavin we won but just not enough when it came to the postseason. The entire Lavin tenure was a lot of bark and not enough bite. And when the recruiting started to disappear, his "strength", it was time to move on.

No it wasn't his fault DJ got hurt and Chris smoked pot. To me the thing I can't get past is we had a roster last year (well I guess 2 years ago) that should have been competing for a final four. I'm not exaggerating, they were good enough, and showed it at times. When we missed the tournament with that roster I knew they'd let Lavin finish out with his seniors but I always had a feeling he'd never be able to make up for that year.

I appreciate what he did for us. He made St. John's an attractive job again. There's a reason mullin is reportedly interested. Lavin made this an attractive place to coach again. I thank him, but it's time to get a coach that can recruit AND then do something with those recruits on the floor.

 

[frank61]

If on the court results and the recruiting been better, would Lavin had gotten his extension?

My opinion: Without a doubt. They didn't begrudge the money. They didn't want to pay this kind of money to not have a single outstanding season. Both NCAA bid seasons were accentuated by mid BE season runs, and losses in the BET and NCAA without a single good performance. Had he gone to an Elite 8, a sweet sixteen, and had a plus .500 ncaa record, he'd still be here.

Was it his fault that dj Kennedy was hurt in the be game against syracuse? That cost us that game plus a run I the big dance. Remember they changed our seeding due yo his injury.
was it his fault that obekpa smoked pot? They can't watch these idiots 24 hr a day.
is he to blame because jordan was a head case, not to mention harrison's first two hot head years?
was it his fault that Harkness and Sampson jumped to the nba?
I can go on. I don't think the school president has a clue as to what has happened. Now everyone wants mullin? mullin won't be passing or shooting. Living in the past won't bring st johns back. this program is dying fast, if it isn't already dead

We would need a new thread to list all of the excuses.

He pretty much just listed them all. My response to his post is simple:

St John's wants and needs a winning team. With Lavin we won but just not enough when it came to the postseason. The entire Lavin tenure was a lot of bark and not enough bite. And when the recruiting started to disappear, his "strength", it was time to move on.

No it wasn't his fault DJ got hurt and Chris smoked pot. To me the thing I can't get past is we had a roster last year (well I guess 2 years ago) that should have been competing for a final four. I'm not exaggerating, they were good enough, and showed it at times. When we missed the tournament with that roster I knew they'd let Lavin finish out with his seniors but I always had a feeling he'd never be able to make up for that year.

I appreciate what he did for us. He made St. John's an attractive job again. There's a reason mullin is reportedly interested. Lavin made this an attractive place to coach again. I thank him, but it's time to get a coach that can recruit AND then do something with those recruits on the floor.

Now we will sit back and see if his successor can do better.....

 

[simplyred]

I'm hearing that Mullin wanted the job when Norm was let go. At the time, they were not willing to take a chance on someone with no experience. This time, it appears, they are willing to consider that option.

While Gerampisaw has attended games and follows rhe program, I don't think this has anything to do with Lavin's recruiting or the quality of next year's roster. It has to do with the number of butts in the seats vs. what the coaching staff is being paid.

The school is in bad shape financially and this is a move to cut the budget. If Mullin takes the job, it will be at a lower salary (for him and his staff) than they were paying Lavin. If they go for an "up and comer", it will be at a lower cost.

 

[danfog]

This a real question. Where did you hear this or is it your opinion? Your statement is a very strong one and if you are correct we have bigger problems then finding a coach. Feel free to comment

 

[simplyred]

The cost-cutting, I have direct knowledge of. It is no secret. Many people at the school, including within the athletic department, were offered buyouts in the past two years. As to what they will pay the next coach, that is opinion and speculation.

 

[marco]

i would just enroll 200 more students at 50K a year next year and pay Cal 10 million a year to coach the team. End of problem.

 

[beast of the east]

i would just enroll 200 more students at 50K a year next year and pay Cal 10 million a year to coach the team. End of problem.

Pretty hysterical. Enrollment is already down by over 500. Just where are you going to find 700 qualified students who fork over 50K when 95% of students get some form of scholarship and aid. In addition, tuition is not $50K, sticker price is below that

 

[TonyinFairfield]

The cost-cutting, I have direct knowledge of. It is no secret. Many people at the school, including within the athletic department, were offered buyouts in the past two years. As to what they will pay the next coach, that is opinion and speculation.

And it's my understanding that of the 200 or so employees who took the buyouts, none have been replaced. This is a very real and serious issue, faced by not just St. John's, but just about every university and college in the country.

 

[monte]

i would just enroll 200 more students at 50K a year next year and pay Cal 10 million a year to coach the team. End of problem.

Pretty hysterical. Enrollment is already down by over 500. Just where are you going to find 700 qualified students who fork over 50K when 95% of students get some form of scholarship and aid. In addition, tuition is not $50K, sticker price is below that

Then raise it! lol FWIW think Marco was joking. At least I hope he was.

 

[beast of the east]

The cost-cutting, I have direct knowledge of. It is no secret. Many people at the school, including within the athletic department, were offered buyouts in the past two years. As to what they will pay the next coach, that is opinion and speculation.

And it's my understanding that of the 200 or so employees who took the buyouts, none have been replaced. This is a very real and serious issue, faced by not just St. John's, but just about every university and college in the country.

Not exactly true. The upper 10-20% of schools are not lacking for applicants as far as I know, with students more than happy to mortgage their futures for the chance of attending a highly regarded university

 

[austour]

When you don't offer an extension is that a parting of the ways or a termination ?

No. But once they couldnt work that out, Lavin was a lame duck with no other option but to fire him and let him collect his buyout.

Neither side was going into next year in the last year of his contract. So Lavin had a choice to take a pay cut or take a package. He chose the package, so in theory he chose to part ways with STJ.

o

That's not how a contract works. Lavin couldn't elect to leave and collect the buyout. When they failed to come to terms on the extension, Lavin is only due the buyout is SJU elects to buy him out of his last year. If they wanted him back as a lame duck it was in their sole discretion, not his. If he walked out on the last year he'd be entitled to nothing.

Not even the STJ admin or AD are stupid enough to let Lavin work the final year of his contract (would you?) so when they made him their extension offer (and yes it has been discussed that this very likely included cuts to his pay and that of his staff) they knew what the situation was. So it may not be how the contract works but it is how the real world works. Did the school make an offer they knew he absolutely couldn't accept? That's the only way the school had any control of this process.

 

[austour]

The cost-cutting, I have direct knowledge of. It is no secret. Many people at the school, including within the athletic department, were offered buyouts in the past two years. As to what they will pay the next coach, that is opinion and speculation.

And it's my understanding that of the 200 or so employees who took the buyouts, none have been replaced. This is a very real and serious issue, faced by not just St. John's, but just about every university and college in the country.

Not exactly true. The upper 10-20% of schools are not lacking for applicants as far as I know, with students more than happy to mortgage their futures for the chance of attending a highly regarded university

Exactly. The UC system is deluged with applications and their acceptance rates keep going down each year. Of course the UCs are also a bargain compared to their relative competition but I don't think the Ivies are at a loss for applicants either. How high do you have to be ranked to be in the top 10%? I take it not 347?

 

[TonyinFairfield]

The cost-cutting, I have direct knowledge of. It is no secret. Many people at the school, including within the athletic department, were offered buyouts in the past two years. As to what they will pay the next coach, that is opinion and speculation.

And it's my understanding that of the 200 or so employees who took the buyouts, none have been replaced. This is a very real and serious issue, faced by not just St. John's, but just about every university and college in the country.

Not exactly true. The upper 10-20% of schools are not lacking for applicants as far as I know, with students more than happy to mortgage their futures for the chance of attending a highly regarded university

You may be right. I couldn't find anything on that. But according to a report from the US Census Bureau from September 2014, College enrollment dropped by 463,000 between 2012 and 2013. There was a two year drop of 930,000 between 2011-2013. Most of that drop took place in two year colleges, where the drop was 10%. Four year colleges saw a mild increase of 1% enrollment. There were no stats on enrollment increases or decreases at the top 10-20% of schools.

 

[beast of the east]

When you don't offer an extension is that a parting of the ways or a termination ?

No. But once they couldnt work that out, Lavin was a lame duck with no other option but to fire him and let him collect his buyout.

Neither side was going into next year in the last year of his contract. So Lavin had a choice to take a pay cut or take a package. He chose the package, so in theory he chose to part ways with STJ.

o

That's not how a contract works. Lavin couldn't elect to leave and collect the buyout. When they failed to come to terms on the extension, Lavin is only due the buyout is SJU elects to buy him out of his last year. If they wanted him back as a lame duck it was in their sole discretion, not his. If he walked out on the last year he'd be entitled to nothing.

Not even the STJ admin or AD are stupid enough to let Lavin work the final year of his contract (would you?) so when they made him their extension offer (and yes it has been discussed that this very likely included cuts to his pay and that of his staff) they knew what the situation was. So it may not be how the contract works but it is how the real world works. Did the school make an offer they knew he absolutely couldn't accept? That's the only way the school had any control of this process.

What I do believe is that because even a low-ball salary is a considerable expense that SJU did want Lavin back if the price was fair in their eyes. If that wasn't the case, they could simply have terminated him and gave him his buyout without negotiation. Thus, what I believe occurred is that they were simply too far apart in term of Lavin's own perceived value, and the terms offered by SJU. By making a lowball offer they weren't escaping the buyout if he wasn't to come back in 2015-16.

But I do agree that neither party wanted Lavin to coach next season without a contract beyond this year.

 

[gregbodkin]

The cost-cutting, I have direct knowledge of. It is no secret. Many people at the school, including within the athletic department, were offered buyouts in the past two years. As to what they will pay the next coach, that is opinion and speculation.

And it's my understanding that of the 200 or so employees who took the buyouts, none have been replaced. This is a very real and serious issue, faced by not just St. John's, but just about every university and college in the country.

Not exactly true. The upper 10-20% of schools are not lacking for applicants as far as I know, with students more than happy to mortgage their futures for the chance of attending a highly regarded university

Exactly. The UC system is deluged with applications and their acceptance rates keep going down each year. Of course the UCs are also a bargain compared to their relative competition but I don't think the Ivies are at a loss for applicants either. How high do you have to be ranked to be in the top 10%? I take it not 347?

Austour, I believe I owe you an apology as my last response to you was a flippant remark, which I regret. It was regarding Erick Barkley and Omar Cook. You were right and I was wrong. I apologize. Please chalk it up to a little too much Chianti, as I am want to do on some occasions.

 

[beast of the east]

The cost-cutting, I have direct knowledge of. It is no secret. Many people at the school, including within the athletic department, were offered buyouts in the past two years. As to what they will pay the next coach, that is opinion and speculation.

And it's my understanding that of the 200 or so employees who took the buyouts, none have been replaced. This is a very real and serious issue, faced by not just St. John's, but just about every university and college in the country.

Not exactly true. The upper 10-20% of schools are not lacking for applicants as far as I know, with students more than happy to mortgage their futures for the chance of attending a highly regarded university

You may be right. I couldn't find anything on that. But according to a report from the US Census Bureau from September 2014, College enrollment dropped by 463,000 between 2012 and 2013. There was a two year drop of 930,000 between 2011-2013. Most of that drop took place in two year colleges, where the drop was 10%. Four year colleges saw a mild increase of 1% enrollment. There were no stats on enrollment increases or decreases at the top 10-20% of schools.

Thanks for the research. Having just gone through the process, excellent schools are as or more difficult to get into than ever, and their endowments continue to soar. My experience is of course, anecdotal. I'm not sure exactly how to interpret the 463,000 drop in enrollment. Certainly it has to do with the economy, but I'm not sure how those students rate as compared to those who attend college.

 

[beast of the east]

Has Lavin made any public statements since his departure?