Jordan Status?

[monte]

http://nypost.com/2015/01/02/rysheed-jordan-takes-mysterious-indefinite-leave-from-st-johns/

 

[frank]

My thoughts, it is true it is hard being a St. John's fan. But it is harder when you have family problems. Need I say ,say a pray for Jordan and his family. Remember what happen last year with his family. It is better for him and for our team that he think of his family first.
We still have a good team. Lavin ,with his past health problems, needs our and the administration support . IF HE HAD A CONTRACT,MAYBE WE WOULD HAVE MORE RECRUITS

 

[shecky82]

Got home a little while ago from the CTK-Molloy game. Rawle as usual a man amongst boys. Anyhow as others have said, this is disappointing but not surprising. There have been warning signs including his demeanor as recently as at the SH game. Based on reports from Paultz, I assume we'll never see the likes of him again. Good bye and good luck.

Just to be clear. I am not certain how long the "leave" will be for. Since the problem has festered I just don't see a quick return.

What you have to love about rooting for this team is the way it keeps you guessing. A little over 48 hours ago, you could draw up a way for there to be two Top 10 teams playing in the Garden Tuesday night. Now a tricky game just got a lot trickier tomorrow and you can draw up a way for there to only be one ranked team playing in the Garden Tuesday night, with the unranked team without one of its two most talented players and returning to its bread and butter under multiple regimes the last 10 years: the 5 man rotation! WE ARE!

Interesting points.

Even if I cast no blame on anyone in this situation, I find myself asking a basic question, should this program be much more stable? Is there anything that can be done to reduce the instability that seems to plague us? If this is the norm, so be it. I can then find another diversion. If it is not, how can we get to a less volatile level & who is responsible for accomplishing that? My desire is to root for a team that has a minimum of drama, continuity, competes for a BE championship annually & goes to the Dance more often than not. As things stand, I have a hard time believing we will achieve that status. It seems like we get headed in the right direction only to be derailed. "Always something" could be our motto.

I've been saying this for awhile, St. John's is a tough sell to get kids to come here. This isn't the 80's anymore, things have changed so much in college BB since then. Of course Lavin gets the blame, but it's almost like he's got to take a chance on imperfect kids. I would wonder what realistic coach we could bring in here that could do a better recruiting job. At least Lavin has us in the running for the top talent. Norm was supposed to be an expert recruiter, and look how badly he failed at it.

*Edit: I don't want to make this seem like a Lavin defense. I'm not happy at all with the way he's seemingly taken recruiting periods off and put our future in a lot of doubt.

This really synthesizes where we are..Lavin was an out of the box choice, a gamble on a great communicator selling NYC and getting us relevant again. Given what the university has to offer relative to most big time programs and to compete in today's high end D1 1 and done world, we are often going to end up with "imperfect kids". If you think we are just a coach away from being Duke or UVA, you are delusional. As dialed in fans, social media allows us to see every problem play out in real time and that is painful! Jordan is a troubled kid with a posse of people giving him bad advice, a tough kid for any coach to handle.. having said that, there was a 40 page thread congratulating Lav when we signed him. In today's D1 hoops world, sadly I feel this is probably the Norm (no pun). I hope this ends up as a lesson learned for Sheed similar to what transpired when coach prescribed tough love to Harrison. In the mean time, looking forward to a packed arena and great game today.

 

[monte]

Got home a little while ago from the CTK-Molloy game. Rawle as usual a man amongst boys. Anyhow as others have said, this is disappointing but not surprising. There have been warning signs including his demeanor as recently as at the SH game. Based on reports from Paultz, I assume we'll never see the likes of him again. Good bye and good luck.

Just to be clear. I am not certain how long the "leave" will be for. Since the problem has festered I just don't see a quick return.

What you have to love about rooting for this team is the way it keeps you guessing. A little over 48 hours ago, you could draw up a way for there to be two Top 10 teams playing in the Garden Tuesday night. Now a tricky game just got a lot trickier tomorrow and you can draw up a way for there to only be one ranked team playing in the Garden Tuesday night, with the unranked team without one of its two most talented players and returning to its bread and butter under multiple regimes the last 10 years: the 5 man rotation! WE ARE!

Interesting points.

Even if I cast no blame on anyone in this situation, I find myself asking a basic question, should this program be much more stable? Is there anything that can be done to reduce the instability that seems to plague us? If this is the norm, so be it. I can then find another diversion. If it is not, how can we get to a less volatile level & who is responsible for accomplishing that? My desire is to root for a team that has a minimum of drama, continuity, competes for a BE championship annually & goes to the Dance more often than not. As things stand, I have a hard time believing we will achieve that status. It seems like we get headed in the right direction only to be derailed. "Always something" could be our motto.

I've been saying this for awhile, St. John's is a tough sell to get kids to come here. This isn't the 80's anymore, things have changed so much in college BB since then. Of course Lavin gets the blame, but it's almost like he's got to take a chance on imperfect kids. I would wonder what realistic coach we could bring in here that could do a better recruiting job. At least Lavin has us in the running for the top talent. Norm was supposed to be an expert recruiter, and look how badly he failed at it.

*Edit: I don't want to make this seem like a Lavin defense. I'm not happy at all with the way he's seemingly taken recruiting periods off and put our future in a lot of doubt.

This really synthesizes where we are..Lavin was an out of the box choice, a gamble on a great communicator selling NYC and getting us relevant again. Given what the university has to offer relative to most big time programs and to compete in today's high end D1 1 and done world, we are often going to end up with "imperfect kids". If you think we are just a coach away from being Duke or UVA, you are delusional. As dialed in fans, social media allows us to see every problem play out in real time and that is painful! Jordan is a troubled kid with a posse of people giving him bad advice, a tough kid for any coach to handle.. having said that, there was a 40 page thread congratulating Lav when we signed him. In today's D1 hoops world, sadly I feel this is probably the Norm (no pun). I hope this ends up as a lesson learned for Sheed similar to what transpired when coach prescribed tough love to Harrison. In the mean time, looking forward to a packed arena and great game today.

With the exception of the Dukes and Stanfords of the world, everyone is going to end up with some "imperfect kids". We're not the only ones. But when the "imperfect kids" start to become the norm(also no pun intended) rather than the exception, and when there's no back up plan/depth, then that's major problem. And like with Thomas and ADR earlier this year, this is yet another piece of negative publicity for our still rebuilding program.

 

[paultzman]

Got home a little while ago from the CTK-Molloy game. Rawle as usual a man amongst boys. Anyhow as others have said, this is disappointing but not surprising. There have been warning signs including his demeanor as recently as at the SH game. Based on reports from Paultz, I assume we'll never see the likes of him again. Good bye and good luck.

Just to be clear. I am not certain how long the "leave" will be for. Since the problem has festered I just don't see a quick return.

What you have to love about rooting for this team is the way it keeps you guessing. A little over 48 hours ago, you could draw up a way for there to be two Top 10 teams playing in the Garden Tuesday night. Now a tricky game just got a lot trickier tomorrow and you can draw up a way for there to only be one ranked team playing in the Garden Tuesday night, with the unranked team without one of its two most talented players and returning to its bread and butter under multiple regimes the last 10 years: the 5 man rotation! WE ARE!

Interesting points.

Even if I cast no blame on anyone in this situation, I find myself asking a basic question, should this program be much more stable? Is there anything that can be done to reduce the instability that seems to plague us? If this is the norm, so be it. I can then find another diversion. If it is not, how can we get to a less volatile level & who is responsible for accomplishing that? My desire is to root for a team that has a minimum of drama, continuity, competes for a BE championship annually & goes to the Dance more often than not. As things stand, I have a hard time believing we will achieve that status. It seems like we get headed in the right direction only to be derailed. "Always something" could be our motto.

I've been saying this for awhile, St. John's is a tough sell to get kids to come here. This isn't the 80's anymore, things have changed so much in college BB since then. Of course Lavin gets the blame, but it's almost like he's got to take a chance on imperfect kids. I would wonder what realistic coach we could bring in here that could do a better recruiting job. At least Lavin has us in the running for the top talent. Norm was supposed to be an expert recruiter, and look how badly he failed at it.

*Edit: I don't want to make this seem like a Lavin defense. I'm not happy at all with the way he's seemingly taken recruiting periods off and put our future in a lot of doubt.

I have never subscribed to your view that St Johns is a tough sell. There are schools and programs that have enjoyed or are enjoying success in lesser locations. Gonzaga in Spokane, Xavier in Cincinnati, Villanova in Radnor, Davidson in the sticks, Syracuse in the North Pole, Butler, San Diego State, and others. For Christmas sake, NYC should be an easy sell for hungry and aggressive coaches. Hiring lazies or losers has been our athletic administration's history since Brian Mahoney was endorsed by Lou. The current situation is eerie in that it is shaping up to end like the Jarvis fiasco. Coaches with big egos thinking they deserve(d) contract extension without proving they worked hard enough for it, sabotaging their recruiting efforts with JC talent and walk ons and alienating the fan base. I agree with Paultzman in regard to the length of Rysheed's absence and since the Spring semester does not begin until January 21st, neither party will have any incentive to contact the other. If Jordan returns before that date he may have gotten the message. What message? That I (Lavin ) will ruin your selfish fckn NBA dream by exposing you as uncoachable and making you damaged goods even if it means losing my job since Class of 72 says I am losing it anyway. :angry:

You're missing my point though. You're not selling the top kids on NYC anymore. With the emergence of mainstream media and social media, these guys think they're rock stars in high school. Location hasn't proven to be a factor and time and time again we've seen kids interested in leaving home rather than put NY on their back. Kids are looking to get to the next level by any means necessary, even if they have to go to Podunk U. But the biggest thing is the level of support at schools like Syracuse, using your example. They are the main attraction there. Look how little support there is for st. John's.

Have to disagree. Just look at Xavier located in a rather mundane, not exactly cosmopolitan area with other sports options, albeit less than NY. It attracts three & four star kids for most part from all around the country built on its winning tradition. They then coach the hell out of and develop recruits. It can be done here with steady, competent leadership. Avoid the fools gold of "questionable" elite kids with NBA mania & build a solid core of basketball players. The volatility of our roster is a big factor in destabilizing the program with an end result of being mediocre more often than not. It is quite ok to look at current player & roster issues like Thomas debacle, Jordan & Adonis ineligibility to posit notion that we have to look at the way we do business here. At this stage of Lavin era we should not be looking at possibility of going to battle with such a thin roster. Perhaps we should put blame aside and objectively examine the state of the program, fairly look at who should be held accountable & develop a plan of remediation.

 

[monte]

Got home a little while ago from the CTK-Molloy game. Rawle as usual a man amongst boys. Anyhow as others have said, this is disappointing but not surprising. There have been warning signs including his demeanor as recently as at the SH game. Based on reports from Paultz, I assume we'll never see the likes of him again. Good bye and good luck.

Just to be clear. I am not certain how long the "leave" will be for. Since the problem has festered I just don't see a quick return.

What you have to love about rooting for this team is the way it keeps you guessing. A little over 48 hours ago, you could draw up a way for there to be two Top 10 teams playing in the Garden Tuesday night. Now a tricky game just got a lot trickier tomorrow and you can draw up a way for there to only be one ranked team playing in the Garden Tuesday night, with the unranked team without one of its two most talented players and returning to its bread and butter under multiple regimes the last 10 years: the 5 man rotation! WE ARE!

Interesting points.

Even if I cast no blame on anyone in this situation, I find myself asking a basic question, should this program be much more stable? Is there anything that can be done to reduce the instability that seems to plague us? If this is the norm, so be it. I can then find another diversion. If it is not, how can we get to a less volatile level & who is responsible for accomplishing that? My desire is to root for a team that has a minimum of drama, continuity, competes for a BE championship annually & goes to the Dance more often than not. As things stand, I have a hard time believing we will achieve that status. It seems like we get headed in the right direction only to be derailed. "Always something" could be our motto.

I've been saying this for awhile, St. John's is a tough sell to get kids to come here. This isn't the 80's anymore, things have changed so much in college BB since then. Of course Lavin gets the blame, but it's almost like he's got to take a chance on imperfect kids. I would wonder what realistic coach we could bring in here that could do a better recruiting job. At least Lavin has us in the running for the top talent. Norm was supposed to be an expert recruiter, and look how badly he failed at it.

*Edit: I don't want to make this seem like a Lavin defense. I'm not happy at all with the way he's seemingly taken recruiting periods off and put our future in a lot of doubt.

I have never subscribed to your view that St Johns is a tough sell. There are schools and programs that have enjoyed or are enjoying success in lesser locations. Gonzaga in Spokane, Xavier in Cincinnati, Villanova in Radnor, Davidson in the sticks, Syracuse in the North Pole, Butler, San Diego State, and others. For Christmas sake, NYC should be an easy sell for hungry and aggressive coaches. Hiring lazies or losers has been our athletic administration's history since Brian Mahoney was endorsed by Lou. The current situation is eerie in that it is shaping up to end like the Jarvis fiasco. Coaches with big egos thinking they deserve(d) contract extension without proving they worked hard enough for it, sabotaging their recruiting efforts with JC talent and walk ons and alienating the fan base. I agree with Paultzman in regard to the length of Rysheed's absence and since the Spring semester does not begin until January 21st, neither party will have any incentive to contact the other. If Jordan returns before that date he may have gotten the message. What message? That I (Lavin ) will ruin your selfish fckn NBA dream by exposing you as uncoachable and making you damaged goods even if it means losing my job since Class of 72 says I am losing it anyway. :angry:

You're missing my point though. You're not selling the top kids on NYC anymore. With the emergence of mainstream media and social media, these guys think they're rock stars in high school. Location hasn't proven to be a factor and time and time again we've seen kids interested in leaving home rather than put NY on their back. Kids are looking to get to the next level by any means necessary, even if they have to go to Podunk U. But the biggest thing is the level of support at schools like Syracuse, using your example. They are the main attraction there. Look how little support there is for st. John's.

Have to disagree. Just look at Xavier located in a rather mundane, not exactly cosmopolitan area with other sports options, albeit less than NY. It attracts three & four star kids for most part from all around the country built on its winning tradition. They then coach the hell out of and develop recruits. It can be done here with steady, competent leadership. Avoid the fools gold of "questionable" elite kids with NBA mania & build a solid core of basketball players. The volatility of our roster is a big factor in destabilizing the program with an end result of being mediocre more often than not. It is quite ok to look at current player & roster issues like Thomas debacle, Jordan & Adonis ineligibility to posit notion that we have to look at the way we do business here. At this stage of Lavin era we should not be looking at possibility of going to battle with such a thin roster. Perhaps we should put blame aside and objectively examine the state of the program, fairly look at who should be held accountable & develop a plan of remediation.

Very well said. From a purely business standpoint, this business model is flawed.

 

[fan5577]

I do not know where to start with my thoughts on what I have been reading here:
1- Why the heck can we not be UVA? This is NYC for God sake. Does that fact give the players more exposure then a team in Charlottesville, VA maybe not, but it is still a prime destination for many people who want to excel. It is by no means a negative.
2- This program does have a long and storied past. The past 15 years have been awful, acknowledged, but that does not take away from the past glory of this school. We still are, even after this horrible period, a top 10 winning program.
3- When we win the City notices, all you need do is go back to 2011 at the Duke and Pitt game at the garden, I was there is was packed and loud. "If you build it they will come". You put 2 or 3 NCAA teams back to back and the fans will come out.
4- We are recruiting a lot of "slashers" and "athletes" how about basketball players who can hit an open jump shot. Maybe if we went after some 3/4 star corn feed big men from the Midwest who would like to experience the Big City along with a top NYC guy or two who wants to stay home we can get back to where we once were. At this point we can not compete for the 5 star guys with Kentucky or Duke. We need to win for a few years, become a desirable destination again and then go after the "big ones". Someone mentioned it before; why can't we be a Gonzaga, UVA or any other similar school that continues to make NCAA appearances without a continual stream of 5 star recruits?
5- As for Lavin, I just don't know, if we take him at his word, and why wouldn't we, he is a "teacher" and is very involved with these kids not only on the basketball side but also in developing "life skills". That has been seen in things like the willingness to suspend a D'Lo when it hurt his chances of making the NCAA's and other suspensions of key players at key times. D'Lo has been very vocal in his praise and admiration of Lavin since the incident. On the other side what is this team going to look like next year? Again, I believe he put all his eggs in the Briscoe, Sampson and Diallo basket and if those recruits do not pan out we are scrambling again.. That can not happen to a CEO. So I ask in an era when $ rules college sports and a winning team means so much to the health of an institution which direction do we want to go? I do not think you have to choose between the two. You can have both in one man. Is Lavin that man?
I am heartbroken over this last situation. I hope this works out for the team. These young men deserve better after what they have put into this team. I hope it works out for them and they attain their dream of a NCAA appearance.

 

[logen]

Got home a little while ago from the CTK-Molloy game. Rawle as usual a man amongst boys. Anyhow as others have said, this is disappointing but not surprising. There have been warning signs including his demeanor as recently as at the SH game. Based on reports from Paultz, I assume we'll never see the likes of him again. Good bye and good luck.

Just to be clear. I am not certain how long the "leave" will be for. Since the problem has festered I just don't see a quick return.

What you have to love about rooting for this team is the way it keeps you guessing. A little over 48 hours ago, you could draw up a way for there to be two Top 10 teams playing in the Garden Tuesday night. Now a tricky game just got a lot trickier tomorrow and you can draw up a way for there to only be one ranked team playing in the Garden Tuesday night, with the unranked team without one of its two most talented players and returning to its bread and butter under multiple regimes the last 10 years: the 5 man rotation! WE ARE!

Interesting points.

Even if I cast no blame on anyone in this situation, I find myself asking a basic question, should this program be much more stable? Is there anything that can be done to reduce the instability that seems to plague us? If this is the norm, so be it. I can then find another diversion. If it is not, how can we get to a less volatile level & who is responsible for accomplishing that? My desire is to root for a team that has a minimum of drama, continuity, competes for a BE championship annually & goes to the Dance more often than not. As things stand, I have a hard time believing we will achieve that status. It seems like we get headed in the right direction only to be derailed. "Always something" could be our motto.

I've been saying this for awhile, St. John's is a tough sell to get kids to come here. This isn't the 80's anymore, things have changed so much in college BB since then. Of course Lavin gets the blame, but it's almost like he's got to take a chance on imperfect kids. I would wonder what realistic coach we could bring in here that could do a better recruiting job. At least Lavin has us in the running for the top talent. Norm was supposed to be an expert recruiter, and look how badly he failed at it.

*Edit: I don't want to make this seem like a Lavin defense. I'm not happy at all with the way he's seemingly taken recruiting periods off and put our future in a lot of doubt.

I have never subscribed to your view that St Johns is a tough sell. There are schools and programs that have enjoyed or are enjoying success in lesser locations. Gonzaga in Spokane, Xavier in Cincinnati, Villanova in Radnor, Davidson in the sticks, Syracuse in the North Pole, Butler, San Diego State, and others. For Christmas sake, NYC should be an easy sell for hungry and aggressive coaches. Hiring lazies or losers has been our athletic administration's history since Brian Mahoney was endorsed by Lou. The current situation is eerie in that it is shaping up to end like the Jarvis fiasco. Coaches with big egos thinking they deserve(d) contract extension without proving they worked hard enough for it, sabotaging their recruiting efforts with JC talent and walk ons and alienating the fan base. I agree with Paultzman in regard to the length of Rysheed's absence and since the Spring semester does not begin until January 21st, neither party will have any incentive to contact the other. If Jordan returns before that date he may have gotten the message. What message? That I (Lavin ) will ruin your selfish fckn NBA dream by exposing you as uncoachable and making you damaged goods even if it means losing my job since Class of 72 says I am losing it anyway. :angry:

You're missing my point though. You're not selling the top kids on NYC anymore. With the emergence of mainstream media and social media, these guys think they're rock stars in high school. Location hasn't proven to be a factor and time and time again we've seen kids interested in leaving home rather than put NY on their back. Kids are looking to get to the next level by any means necessary, even if they have to go to Podunk U. But the biggest thing is the level of support at schools like Syracuse, using your example. They are the main attraction there. Look how little support there is for st. John's.

Have to disagree. Just look at Xavier located in a rather mundane, not exactly cosmopolitan area with other sports options, albeit less than NY. It attracts three & four star kids for most part from all around the country built on its winning tradition. They then coach the hell out of and develop recruits. It can be done here with steady, competent leadership. Avoid the fools gold of "questionable" elite kids with NBA mania & build a solid core of basketball players. The volatility of our roster is a big factor in destabilizing the program with an end result of being mediocre more often than not. It is quite ok to look at current player & roster issues like Thomas debacle, Jordan & Adonis ineligibility to posit notion that we have to look at the way we do business here. At this stage of Lavin era we should not be looking at possibility of going to battle with such a thin roster. Perhaps we should put blame aside and objectively examine the state of the program, fairly look at who should be held accountable & develop a plan of remediation.

On the money and why I have thought and posted for a while that Lavin is not the right guy for this job. We need a blue collar "worker" who will follow the Gonzaga/VCU/Xavier model not a "rock star" trying to compete wih Duke and Kentucky. No knock on Lavin, he is what he is. But a knock on the SJU administration who have made one mistake after another in selecting coaches. One more point to all the Lavin supporters (and you have every right to be) as TIS said earlier, I am at every game my business allows me to make and root like hell whether live or watching; that will not change. That does not mean I support or spin what I see happening in front of me; the instability of this program since Lavin arrived speaks for itself.

 

[ZanMan]

Let's hope this works itself out. Jordan and St. John's both need eachother.

What better way to make your draft stock soar than a deep run through the NCAAs in March? No way we make any type of deep run without him.

#23 and St. John's both need eachother equally. Here's hoping both sides realize this soon.

 

[room112]

Got home a little while ago from the CTK-Molloy game. Rawle as usual a man amongst boys. Anyhow as others have said, this is disappointing but not surprising. There have been warning signs including his demeanor as recently as at the SH game. Based on reports from Paultz, I assume we'll never see the likes of him again. Good bye and good luck.

Just to be clear. I am not certain how long the "leave" will be for. Since the problem has festered I just don't see a quick return.

What you have to love about rooting for this team is the way it keeps you guessing. A little over 48 hours ago, you could draw up a way for there to be two Top 10 teams playing in the Garden Tuesday night. Now a tricky game just got a lot trickier tomorrow and you can draw up a way for there to only be one ranked team playing in the Garden Tuesday night, with the unranked team without one of its two most talented players and returning to its bread and butter under multiple regimes the last 10 years: the 5 man rotation! WE ARE!

Interesting points.

Even if I cast no blame on anyone in this situation, I find myself asking a basic question, should this program be much more stable? Is there anything that can be done to reduce the instability that seems to plague us? If this is the norm, so be it. I can then find another diversion. If it is not, how can we get to a less volatile level & who is responsible for accomplishing that? My desire is to root for a team that has a minimum of drama, continuity, competes for a BE championship annually & goes to the Dance more often than not. As things stand, I have a hard time believing we will achieve that status. It seems like we get headed in the right direction only to be derailed. "Always something" could be our motto.

I've been saying this for awhile, St. John's is a tough sell to get kids to come here. This isn't the 80's anymore, things have changed so much in college BB since then. Of course Lavin gets the blame, but it's almost like he's got to take a chance on imperfect kids. I would wonder what realistic coach we could bring in here that could do a better recruiting job. At least Lavin has us in the running for the top talent. Norm was supposed to be an expert recruiter, and look how badly he failed at it.

*Edit: I don't want to make this seem like a Lavin defense. I'm not happy at all with the way he's seemingly taken recruiting periods off and put our future in a lot of doubt.

I have never subscribed to your view that St Johns is a tough sell. There are schools and programs that have enjoyed or are enjoying success in lesser locations. Gonzaga in Spokane, Xavier in Cincinnati, Villanova in Radnor, Davidson in the sticks, Syracuse in the North Pole, Butler, San Diego State, and others. For Christmas sake, NYC should be an easy sell for hungry and aggressive coaches. Hiring lazies or losers has been our athletic administration's history since Brian Mahoney was endorsed by Lou. The current situation is eerie in that it is shaping up to end like the Jarvis fiasco. Coaches with big egos thinking they deserve(d) contract extension without proving they worked hard enough for it, sabotaging their recruiting efforts with JC talent and walk ons and alienating the fan base. I agree with Paultzman in regard to the length of Rysheed's absence and since the Spring semester does not begin until January 21st, neither party will have any incentive to contact the other. If Jordan returns before that date he may have gotten the message. What message? That I (Lavin ) will ruin your selfish fckn NBA dream by exposing you as uncoachable and making you damaged goods even if it means losing my job since Class of 72 says I am losing it anyway. :angry:

You're missing my point though. You're not selling the top kids on NYC anymore. With the emergence of mainstream media and social media, these guys think they're rock stars in high school. Location hasn't proven to be a factor and time and time again we've seen kids interested in leaving home rather than put NY on their back. Kids are looking to get to the next level by any means necessary, even if they have to go to Podunk U. But the biggest thing is the level of support at schools like Syracuse, using your example. They are the main attraction there. Look how little support there is for st. John's.

Have to disagree. Just look at Xavier located in a rather mundane, not exactly cosmopolitan area with other sports options, albeit less than NY. It attracts three & four star kids for most part from all around the country built on its winning tradition. They then coach the hell out of and develop recruits. It can be done here with steady, competent leadership. Avoid the fools gold of "questionable" elite kids with NBA mania & build a solid core of basketball players. The volatility of our roster is a big factor in destabilizing the program with an end result of being mediocre more often than not. It is quite ok to look at current player & roster issues like Thomas debacle, Jordan & Adonis ineligibility to posit notion that we have to look at the way we do business here. At this stage of Lavin era we should not be looking at possibility of going to battle with such a thin roster. Perhaps we should put blame aside and objectively examine the state of the program, fairly look at who should be held accountable & develop a plan of remediation.

How are the sports facilities at Xavier? How is the campus and campus life? How is the fan support? I'm asking because I have no idea.

However, I do know that St. John's plays in a glorified high school gym nightly that is usually less than half full and has no semblance of a campus life (commuter school). I'm not trying to trash St. John's, I'm just stating what it is. When was the last time someone made a reach to come to St. John's because they wanted to elevate NYC? I think Moe Harkless I remember saying that, other than that I don't remember much of it.

Further, this goes to the administration also. The athletics are run like a mom and pop organization and has been for years. It's ridiculous really.

 

[room112]

Yahoo sports write up of game shows it's indefinitel leave to deal with personal and family circumstances.

Are we sure it's his own doing and. A suspension? Is it not his moms health issues again? Why are we jumping to conclusions and acting like the world ended. Branch has been a very good backup and been there before. He can def pick up the slack, is very unselfish with the ball and a good ball handler with very minimal TOs.

Our posters on here who have sources have hinted that it's more than that.

 

[Muse]

Not at all surprised. My last 2 posts were that Jordan was not one to start and that Steve was cooling off on him. What posters are missing is that this team has been led by Dlo for 4 years. His suspension was because his then leadership style conflicted with Steves authority. He then did what he had to do to resume leadership. Dlo is in charge Woe is Steve next year without him

 

[ccnobz]

Jordan wants to play in the NBA this stuff is not helping him. What Nba team is going to draft a kid that can't even stay on the court in college. Grow up and finish out the season

 

[paultzman]

Got home a little while ago from the CTK-Molloy game. Rawle as usual a man amongst boys. Anyhow as others have said, this is disappointing but not surprising. There have been warning signs including his demeanor as recently as at the SH game. Based on reports from Paultz, I assume we'll never see the likes of him again. Good bye and good luck.

Just to be clear. I am not certain how long the "leave" will be for. Since the problem has festered I just don't see a quick return.

What you have to love about rooting for this team is the way it keeps you guessing. A little over 48 hours ago, you could draw up a way for there to be two Top 10 teams playing in the Garden Tuesday night. Now a tricky game just got a lot trickier tomorrow and you can draw up a way for there to only be one ranked team playing in the Garden Tuesday night, with the unranked team without one of its two most talented players and returning to its bread and butter under multiple regimes the last 10 years: the 5 man rotation! WE ARE!

Interesting points.

Even if I cast no blame on anyone in this situation, I find myself asking a basic question, should this program be much more stable? Is there anything that can be done to reduce the instability that seems to plague us? If this is the norm, so be it. I can then find another diversion. If it is not, how can we get to a less volatile level & who is responsible for accomplishing that? My desire is to root for a team that has a minimum of drama, continuity, competes for a BE championship annually & goes to the Dance more often than not. As things stand, I have a hard time believing we will achieve that status. It seems like we get headed in the right direction only to be derailed. "Always something" could be our motto.

I've been saying this for awhile, St. John's is a tough sell to get kids to come here. This isn't the 80's anymore, things have changed so much in college BB since then. Of course Lavin gets the blame, but it's almost like he's got to take a chance on imperfect kids. I would wonder what realistic coach we could bring in here that could do a better recruiting job. At least Lavin has us in the running for the top talent. Norm was supposed to be an expert recruiter, and look how badly he failed at it.

*Edit: I don't want to make this seem like a Lavin defense. I'm not happy at all with the way he's seemingly taken recruiting periods off and put our future in a lot of doubt.

I have never subscribed to your view that St Johns is a tough sell. There are schools and programs that have enjoyed or are enjoying success in lesser locations. Gonzaga in Spokane, Xavier in Cincinnati, Villanova in Radnor, Davidson in the sticks, Syracuse in the North Pole, Butler, San Diego State, and others. For Christmas sake, NYC should be an easy sell for hungry and aggressive coaches. Hiring lazies or losers has been our athletic administration's history since Brian Mahoney was endorsed by Lou. The current situation is eerie in that it is shaping up to end like the Jarvis fiasco. Coaches with big egos thinking they deserve(d) contract extension without proving they worked hard enough for it, sabotaging their recruiting efforts with JC talent and walk ons and alienating the fan base. I agree with Paultzman in regard to the length of Rysheed's absence and since the Spring semester does not begin until January 21st, neither party will have any incentive to contact the other. If Jordan returns before that date he may have gotten the message. What message? That I (Lavin ) will ruin your selfish fckn NBA dream by exposing you as uncoachable and making you damaged goods even if it means losing my job since Class of 72 says I am losing it anyway. :angry:

You're missing my point though. You're not selling the top kids on NYC anymore. With the emergence of mainstream media and social media, these guys think they're rock stars in high school. Location hasn't proven to be a factor and time and time again we've seen kids interested in leaving home rather than put NY on their back. Kids are looking to get to the next level by any means necessary, even if they have to go to Podunk U. But the biggest thing is the level of support at schools like Syracuse, using your example. They are the main attraction there. Look how little support there is for st. John's.

Have to disagree. Just look at Xavier located in a rather mundane, not exactly cosmopolitan area with other sports options, albeit less than NY. It attracts three & four star kids for most part from all around the country built on its winning tradition. They then coach the hell out of and develop recruits. It can be done here with steady, competent leadership. Avoid the fools gold of "questionable" elite kids with NBA mania & build a solid core of basketball players. The volatility of our roster is a big factor in destabilizing the program with an end result of being mediocre more often than not. It is quite ok to look at current player & roster issues like Thomas debacle, Jordan & Adonis ineligibility to posit notion that we have to look at the way we do business here. At this stage of Lavin era we should not be looking at possibility of going to battle with such a thin roster. Perhaps we should put blame aside and objectively examine the state of the program, fairly look at who should be held accountable & develop a plan of remediation.

How are the sports facilities at Xavier? How is the campus and campus life? How is the fan support? I'm asking because I have no idea.

However, I do know that St. John's plays in a glorified high school gym nightly that is usually less than half full and has no semblance of a campus life (commuter school). I'm not trying to trash St. John's, I'm just stating what it is. When was the last time someone made a reach to come to St. John's because they wanted to elevate NYC? I think Moe Harkless I remember saying that, other than that I don't remember much of it.

Further, this goes to the administration also. The athletics are run like a mom and pop organization and has been for years. It's ridiculous really.

Can't argue with mom and pop point. Xavier plays in a decent arena, but MSG is better. CA admittedly is below average for sure. Xavier is a better academically than SJU & has a decent campus in a dreadful city.

I suggest you look at Seton Hall which is in Metro area in a lousy location with a so so campus. They seem to be attracting solid kids recently facing same challenges as SJU. However they are accomplishing that, it would appear it can be done. Like Tiny or not, SH appears to be putting in the work to succeed. Recruits appear to be finding SH to be a good destination. In the long run can they sustain that? I think so, but who knows. It is not about geography, facilities, kids leaving NYC, etc. It is more about leadership and surmounting those shortcomings Imo.

 

[SJU1512]

Got home a little while ago from the CTK-Molloy game. Rawle as usual a man amongst boys. Anyhow as others have said, this is disappointing but not surprising. There have been warning signs including his demeanor as recently as at the SH game. Based on reports from Paultz, I assume we'll never see the likes of him again. Good bye and good luck.

Just to be clear. I am not certain how long the "leave" will be for. Since the problem has festered I just don't see a quick return.

What you have to love about rooting for this team is the way it keeps you guessing. A little over 48 hours ago, you could draw up a way for there to be two Top 10 teams playing in the Garden Tuesday night. Now a tricky game just got a lot trickier tomorrow and you can draw up a way for there to only be one ranked team playing in the Garden Tuesday night, with the unranked team without one of its two most talented players and returning to its bread and butter under multiple regimes the last 10 years: the 5 man rotation! WE ARE!

Interesting points.

Even if I cast no blame on anyone in this situation, I find myself asking a basic question, should this program be much more stable? Is there anything that can be done to reduce the instability that seems to plague us? If this is the norm, so be it. I can then find another diversion. If it is not, how can we get to a less volatile level & who is responsible for accomplishing that? My desire is to root for a team that has a minimum of drama, continuity, competes for a BE championship annually & goes to the Dance more often than not. As things stand, I have a hard time believing we will achieve that status. It seems like we get headed in the right direction only to be derailed. "Always something" could be our motto.

I've been saying this for awhile, St. John's is a tough sell to get kids to come here. This isn't the 80's anymore, things have changed so much in college BB since then. Of course Lavin gets the blame, but it's almost like he's got to take a chance on imperfect kids. I would wonder what realistic coach we could bring in here that could do a better recruiting job. At least Lavin has us in the running for the top talent. Norm was supposed to be an expert recruiter, and look how badly he failed at it.

*Edit: I don't want to make this seem like a Lavin defense. I'm not happy at all with the way he's seemingly taken recruiting periods off and put our future in a lot of doubt.

I have never subscribed to your view that St Johns is a tough sell. There are schools and programs that have enjoyed or are enjoying success in lesser locations. Gonzaga in Spokane, Xavier in Cincinnati, Villanova in Radnor, Davidson in the sticks, Syracuse in the North Pole, Butler, San Diego State, and others. For Christmas sake, NYC should be an easy sell for hungry and aggressive coaches. Hiring lazies or losers has been our athletic administration's history since Brian Mahoney was endorsed by Lou. The current situation is eerie in that it is shaping up to end like the Jarvis fiasco. Coaches with big egos thinking they deserve(d) contract extension without proving they worked hard enough for it, sabotaging their recruiting efforts with JC talent and walk ons and alienating the fan base. I agree with Paultzman in regard to the length of Rysheed's absence and since the Spring semester does not begin until January 21st, neither party will have any incentive to contact the other. If Jordan returns before that date he may have gotten the message. What message? That I (Lavin ) will ruin your selfish fckn NBA dream by exposing you as uncoachable and making you damaged goods even if it means losing my job since Class of 72 says I am losing it anyway. :angry:

You're missing my point though. You're not selling the top kids on NYC anymore. With the emergence of mainstream media and social media, these guys think they're rock stars in high school. Location hasn't proven to be a factor and time and time again we've seen kids interested in leaving home rather than put NY on their back. Kids are looking to get to the next level by any means necessary, even if they have to go to Podunk U. But the biggest thing is the level of support at schools like Syracuse, using your example. They are the main attraction there. Look how little support there is for st. John's.

Have to disagree. Just look at Xavier located in a rather mundane, not exactly cosmopolitan area with other sports options, albeit less than NY. It attracts three & four star kids for most part from all around the country built on its winning tradition. They then coach the hell out of and develop recruits. It can be done here with steady, competent leadership. Avoid the fools gold of "questionable" elite kids with NBA mania & build a solid core of basketball players. The volatility of our roster is a big factor in destabilizing the program with an end result of being mediocre more often than not. It is quite ok to look at current player & roster issues like Thomas debacle, Jordan & Adonis ineligibility to posit notion that we have to look at the way we do business here. At this stage of Lavin era we should not be looking at possibility of going to battle with such a thin roster. Perhaps we should put blame aside and objectively examine the state of the program, fairly look at who should be held accountable & develop a plan of remediation.

Can't say it better than this. Thanks Paultz.

The last 20 years tend to blend together and make this seem like it's a lot harder than it is. But it isn't so. After a few transitional years of Mahoney after Lou, Fran had this program ready to go to the moon. We know what happened with him but if we are evaluating based on "could he have succeeded here", the answer is unequivocally yes. So one long time assistant who couldn't hack it, and a guy who made some mistakes and overplayed his hand but was ready to win big here. Far from the end of the world, happens in this business.

Then the school made two horrible hires. Simple as that. A bad guy and a good guy, neither of whom could win here. That's caused many to question whether it's possible to win here. Not a valid question IMO. No doubting SJU has it's shortcomings, but winning coaches win with similar or less all the time. Easier to win with more for sure, but possible to win with the same or less. SJU is not a fundamentally flawed basketball program.

Lavin is clearly light years ahead of the last two but unclear whether he is the right profile. For sure, Rysheed is just the latest example of volatility that is way above the norm. Lavin has averaged like 2-3 of these instances, or more, per year since he's been here. Understood the risks early, but at this point it's reasonable to ask when or if it's going to stop. IMO, too focused on the big fish which can overcomplicate things because realistically that's not really who we are so we end up being on the fringes more often than not (at least the last 3 years). We don't need to focus on a Harkless or a Briscoe "saving the program". Great to think about, but this program doesn't need to be saved, it just needs sustainable quality, and all these big swings - even with a mix of hits and misses - have resulted in us going into a conference game in early January with 5 guys averaging over 10 minutes per game, in year 5. That's concerning in terms of long term prospects.

Really rooting hard for those 5 kids and everyone else in SJU uniform today.

 

[paultzman]

Got home a little while ago from the CTK-Molloy game. Rawle as usual a man amongst boys. Anyhow as others have said, this is disappointing but not surprising. There have been warning signs including his demeanor as recently as at the SH game. Based on reports from Paultz, I assume we'll never see the likes of him again. Good bye and good luck.

Just to be clear. I am not certain how long the "leave" will be for. Since the problem has festered I just don't see a quick return.

What you have to love about rooting for this team is the way it keeps you guessing. A little over 48 hours ago, you could draw up a way for there to be two Top 10 teams playing in the Garden Tuesday night. Now a tricky game just got a lot trickier tomorrow and you can draw up a way for there to only be one ranked team playing in the Garden Tuesday night, with the unranked team without one of its two most talented players and returning to its bread and butter under multiple regimes the last 10 years: the 5 man rotation! WE ARE!

Interesting points.

Even if I cast no blame on anyone in this situation, I find myself asking a basic question, should this program be much more stable? Is there anything that can be done to reduce the instability that seems to plague us? If this is the norm, so be it. I can then find another diversion. If it is not, how can we get to a less volatile level & who is responsible for accomplishing that? My desire is to root for a team that has a minimum of drama, continuity, competes for a BE championship annually & goes to the Dance more often than not. As things stand, I have a hard time believing we will achieve that status. It seems like we get headed in the right direction only to be derailed. "Always something" could be our motto.

I've been saying this for awhile, St. John's is a tough sell to get kids to come here. This isn't the 80's anymore, things have changed so much in college BB since then. Of course Lavin gets the blame, but it's almost like he's got to take a chance on imperfect kids. I would wonder what realistic coach we could bring in here that could do a better recruiting job. At least Lavin has us in the running for the top talent. Norm was supposed to be an expert recruiter, and look how badly he failed at it.

*Edit: I don't want to make this seem like a Lavin defense. I'm not happy at all with the way he's seemingly taken recruiting periods off and put our future in a lot of doubt.

I have never subscribed to your view that St Johns is a tough sell. There are schools and programs that have enjoyed or are enjoying success in lesser locations. Gonzaga in Spokane, Xavier in Cincinnati, Villanova in Radnor, Davidson in the sticks, Syracuse in the North Pole, Butler, San Diego State, and others. For Christmas sake, NYC should be an easy sell for hungry and aggressive coaches. Hiring lazies or losers has been our athletic administration's history since Brian Mahoney was endorsed by Lou. The current situation is eerie in that it is shaping up to end like the Jarvis fiasco. Coaches with big egos thinking they deserve(d) contract extension without proving they worked hard enough for it, sabotaging their recruiting efforts with JC talent and walk ons and alienating the fan base. I agree with Paultzman in regard to the length of Rysheed's absence and since the Spring semester does not begin until January 21st, neither party will have any incentive to contact the other. If Jordan returns before that date he may have gotten the message. What message? That I (Lavin ) will ruin your selfish fckn NBA dream by exposing you as uncoachable and making you damaged goods even if it means losing my job since Class of 72 says I am losing it anyway. :angry:

You're missing my point though. You're not selling the top kids on NYC anymore. With the emergence of mainstream media and social media, these guys think they're rock stars in high school. Location hasn't proven to be a factor and time and time again we've seen kids interested in leaving home rather than put NY on their back. Kids are looking to get to the next level by any means necessary, even if they have to go to Podunk U. But the biggest thing is the level of support at schools like Syracuse, using your example. They are the main attraction there. Look how little support there is for st. John's.

Have to disagree. Just look at Xavier located in a rather mundane, not exactly cosmopolitan area with other sports options, albeit less than NY. It attracts three & four star kids for most part from all around the country built on its winning tradition. They then coach the hell out of and develop recruits. It can be done here with steady, competent leadership. Avoid the fools gold of "questionable" elite kids with NBA mania & build a solid core of basketball players. The volatility of our roster is a big factor in destabilizing the program with an end result of being mediocre more often than not. It is quite ok to look at current player & roster issues like Thomas debacle, Jordan & Adonis ineligibility to posit notion that we have to look at the way we do business here. At this stage of Lavin era we should not be looking at possibility of going to battle with such a thin roster. Perhaps we should put blame aside and objectively examine the state of the program, fairly look at who should be held accountable & develop a plan of remediation.

Can't say it better than this. Thanks Paultz.

The last 20 years tend to blend together and make this seem like it's a lot harder than it is. But it isn't so. After a few transitional years of Mahoney after Lou, Fran had this program ready to go to the moon. We know what happened with him but if we are evaluating based on "could he have succeeded here", the answer is unequivocally yes. So one long time assistant who couldn't hack it, and a guy who made some mistakes and overplayed his hand but was ready to win big here. Far from the end of the world, happens in this business.

Then the school made two horrible hires. Simple as that. A bad guy and a good guy, neither of whom could win here. That's caused many to question whether it's possible to win here. Not a valid question IMO. No doubting SJU has it's shortcomings, but winning coaches win with similar or less all the time. Easier to win with more for sure, but possible to win with the same or less. SJU is not a fundamentally flawed basketball program.

Lavin is clearly light years ahead of the last two but unclear whether he is the right profile. For sure, Rysheed is just the latest example of volatility that is way above the norm. Lavin has averaged like 2-3 of these instances, or more, per year since he's been here. Understood the risks early, but at this point it's reasonable to ask when or if it's going to stop. IMO, too focused on the big fish which can overcomplicate things because realistically that's not really who we are so we end up being on the fringes more often than not (at least the last 3 years). We don't need to focus on a Harkless or a Briscoe "saving the program". Great to think about, but this program doesn't need to be saved, it just needs sustainable quality, and all these big swings - even with a mix of hits and misses - have resulted in us going into a conference game in early January with 5 guys averaging over 10 minutes per game, in year 5. That's concerning in terms of long term prospects.

Really rooting hard for those 5 kids and everyone else in SJU uniform today.

Outstanding post SJU15. Man that "sustainable quality" reference rings so true.

 

[billthetruth]

Got home a little while ago from the CTK-Molloy game. Rawle as usual a man amongst boys. Anyhow as others have said, this is disappointing but not surprising. There have been warning signs including his demeanor as recently as at the SH game. Based on reports from Paultz, I assume we'll never see the likes of him again. Good bye and good luck.

Just to be clear. I am not certain how long the "leave" will be for. Since the problem has festered I just don't see a quick return.

What you have to love about rooting for this team is the way it keeps you guessing. A little over 48 hours ago, you could draw up a way for there to be two Top 10 teams playing in the Garden Tuesday night. Now a tricky game just got a lot trickier tomorrow and you can draw up a way for there to only be one ranked team playing in the Garden Tuesday night, with the unranked team without one of its two most talented players and returning to its bread and butter under multiple regimes the last 10 years: the 5 man rotation! WE ARE!

Interesting points.

Even if I cast no blame on anyone in this situation, I find myself asking a basic question, should this program be much more stable? Is there anything that can be done to reduce the instability that seems to plague us? If this is the norm, so be it. I can then find another diversion. If it is not, how can we get to a less volatile level & who is responsible for accomplishing that? My desire is to root for a team that has a minimum of drama, continuity, competes for a BE championship annually & goes to the Dance more often than not. As things stand, I have a hard time believing we will achieve that status. It seems like we get headed in the right direction only to be derailed. "Always something" could be our motto.

I've been saying this for awhile, St. John's is a tough sell to get kids to come here. This isn't the 80's anymore, things have changed so much in college BB since then. Of course Lavin gets the blame, but it's almost like he's got to take a chance on imperfect kids. I would wonder what realistic coach we could bring in here that could do a better recruiting job. At least Lavin has us in the running for the top talent. Norm was supposed to be an expert recruiter, and look how badly he failed at it.

*Edit: I don't want to make this seem like a Lavin defense. I'm not happy at all with the way he's seemingly taken recruiting periods off and put our future in a lot of doubt.

I have never subscribed to your view that St Johns is a tough sell. There are schools and programs that have enjoyed or are enjoying success in lesser locations. Gonzaga in Spokane, Xavier in Cincinnati, Villanova in Radnor, Davidson in the sticks, Syracuse in the North Pole, Butler, San Diego State, and others. For Christmas sake, NYC should be an easy sell for hungry and aggressive coaches. Hiring lazies or losers has been our athletic administration's history since Brian Mahoney was endorsed by Lou. The current situation is eerie in that it is shaping up to end like the Jarvis fiasco. Coaches with big egos thinking they deserve(d) contract extension without proving they worked hard enough for it, sabotaging their recruiting efforts with JC talent and walk ons and alienating the fan base. I agree with Paultzman in regard to the length of Rysheed's absence and since the Spring semester does not begin until January 21st, neither party will have any incentive to contact the other. If Jordan returns before that date he may have gotten the message. What message? That I (Lavin ) will ruin your selfish fckn NBA dream by exposing you as uncoachable and making you damaged goods even if it means losing my job since Class of 72 says I am losing it anyway. :angry:

You're missing my point though. You're not selling the top kids on NYC anymore. With the emergence of mainstream media and social media, these guys think they're rock stars in high school. Location hasn't proven to be a factor and time and time again we've seen kids interested in leaving home rather than put NY on their back. Kids are looking to get to the next level by any means necessary, even if they have to go to Podunk U. But the biggest thing is the level of support at schools like Syracuse, using your example. They are the main attraction there. Look how little support there is for st. John's.

Have to disagree. Just look at Xavier located in a rather mundane, not exactly cosmopolitan area with other sports options, albeit less than NY. It attracts three & four star kids for most part from all around the country built on its winning tradition. They then coach the hell out of and develop recruits. It can be done here with steady, competent leadership. Avoid the fools gold of "questionable" elite kids with NBA mania & build a solid core of basketball players. The volatility of our roster is a big factor in destabilizing the program with an end result of being mediocre more often than not. It is quite ok to look at current player & roster issues like Thomas debacle, Jordan & Adonis ineligibility to posit notion that we have to look at the way we do business here. At this stage of Lavin era we should not be looking at possibility of going to battle with such a thin roster. Perhaps we should put blame aside and objectively examine the state of the program, fairly look at who should be held accountable & develop a plan of remediation.

How are the sports facilities at Xavier? How is the campus and campus life? How is the fan support? I'm asking because I have no idea.

However, I do know that St. John's plays in a glorified high school gym nightly that is usually less than half full and has no semblance of a campus life (commuter school). I'm not trying to trash St. John's, I'm just stating what it is. When was the last time someone made a reach to come to St. John's because they wanted to elevate NYC? I think Moe Harkless I remember saying that, other than that I don't remember much of it.

Further, this goes to the administration also. The athletics are run like a mom and pop organization and has been for years. It's ridiculous really.

Can't argue with mom and pop point. Xavier plays in a decent arena, but MSG is better. CA admittedly is below average for sure. Xavier is a better academically than SJU & has a decent campus in a dreadful city.

I suggest you look at Seton Hall which is in Metro area in a lousy location with a so so campus. They seem to be attracting solid kids recently facing same challenges as SJU. However they are accomplishing that, it would appear it can be done. Like Tiny or not, SH appears to be putting in the work to succeed. Recruits appear to be finding SH to be a good destination. In the long run can they sustain that? I think so, but who knows. It is not about geography, facilities, kids leaving NYC, etc. It is more about leadership and surmounting those shortcomings Imo.

Come on Paultz. You are reaching on Seton Hall. You seem smarter than that. You lost me on that comparison. Major Reach

No offense but Seton Hall is a dump and the ONLY reason they got Whitehead and Delgado is because they offered jobs to Antigua and Morton. For all of Lavin's perceived faults on this board, at least he did not sell his soul to the devil (Mr. Morton) like Willard did to save his job.Their recruiting has stunk otherwise. Willard would jump from that Dump the first minute a better or more lucrative situation arose for him.

 

[room112]

Got home a little while ago from the CTK-Molloy game. Rawle as usual a man amongst boys. Anyhow as others have said, this is disappointing but not surprising. There have been warning signs including his demeanor as recently as at the SH game. Based on reports from Paultz, I assume we'll never see the likes of him again. Good bye and good luck.

Just to be clear. I am not certain how long the "leave" will be for. Since the problem has festered I just don't see a quick return.

What you have to love about rooting for this team is the way it keeps you guessing. A little over 48 hours ago, you could draw up a way for there to be two Top 10 teams playing in the Garden Tuesday night. Now a tricky game just got a lot trickier tomorrow and you can draw up a way for there to only be one ranked team playing in the Garden Tuesday night, with the unranked team without one of its two most talented players and returning to its bread and butter under multiple regimes the last 10 years: the 5 man rotation! WE ARE!

Interesting points.

Even if I cast no blame on anyone in this situation, I find myself asking a basic question, should this program be much more stable? Is there anything that can be done to reduce the instability that seems to plague us? If this is the norm, so be it. I can then find another diversion. If it is not, how can we get to a less volatile level & who is responsible for accomplishing that? My desire is to root for a team that has a minimum of drama, continuity, competes for a BE championship annually & goes to the Dance more often than not. As things stand, I have a hard time believing we will achieve that status. It seems like we get headed in the right direction only to be derailed. "Always something" could be our motto.

I've been saying this for awhile, St. John's is a tough sell to get kids to come here. This isn't the 80's anymore, things have changed so much in college BB since then. Of course Lavin gets the blame, but it's almost like he's got to take a chance on imperfect kids. I would wonder what realistic coach we could bring in here that could do a better recruiting job. At least Lavin has us in the running for the top talent. Norm was supposed to be an expert recruiter, and look how badly he failed at it.

*Edit: I don't want to make this seem like a Lavin defense. I'm not happy at all with the way he's seemingly taken recruiting periods off and put our future in a lot of doubt.

I have never subscribed to your view that St Johns is a tough sell. There are schools and programs that have enjoyed or are enjoying success in lesser locations. Gonzaga in Spokane, Xavier in Cincinnati, Villanova in Radnor, Davidson in the sticks, Syracuse in the North Pole, Butler, San Diego State, and others. For Christmas sake, NYC should be an easy sell for hungry and aggressive coaches. Hiring lazies or losers has been our athletic administration's history since Brian Mahoney was endorsed by Lou. The current situation is eerie in that it is shaping up to end like the Jarvis fiasco. Coaches with big egos thinking they deserve(d) contract extension without proving they worked hard enough for it, sabotaging their recruiting efforts with JC talent and walk ons and alienating the fan base. I agree with Paultzman in regard to the length of Rysheed's absence and since the Spring semester does not begin until January 21st, neither party will have any incentive to contact the other. If Jordan returns before that date he may have gotten the message. What message? That I (Lavin ) will ruin your selfish fckn NBA dream by exposing you as uncoachable and making you damaged goods even if it means losing my job since Class of 72 says I am losing it anyway. :angry:

You're missing my point though. You're not selling the top kids on NYC anymore. With the emergence of mainstream media and social media, these guys think they're rock stars in high school. Location hasn't proven to be a factor and time and time again we've seen kids interested in leaving home rather than put NY on their back. Kids are looking to get to the next level by any means necessary, even if they have to go to Podunk U. But the biggest thing is the level of support at schools like Syracuse, using your example. They are the main attraction there. Look how little support there is for st. John's.

Have to disagree. Just look at Xavier located in a rather mundane, not exactly cosmopolitan area with other sports options, albeit less than NY. It attracts three & four star kids for most part from all around the country built on its winning tradition. They then coach the hell out of and develop recruits. It can be done here with steady, competent leadership. Avoid the fools gold of "questionable" elite kids with NBA mania & build a solid core of basketball players. The volatility of our roster is a big factor in destabilizing the program with an end result of being mediocre more often than not. It is quite ok to look at current player & roster issues like Thomas debacle, Jordan & Adonis ineligibility to posit notion that we have to look at the way we do business here. At this stage of Lavin era we should not be looking at possibility of going to battle with such a thin roster. Perhaps we should put blame aside and objectively examine the state of the program, fairly look at who should be held accountable & develop a plan of remediation.

Can't say it better than this. Thanks Paultz.

The last 20 years tend to blend together and make this seem like it's a lot harder than it is. But it isn't so. After a few transitional years of Mahoney after Lou, Fran had this program ready to go to the moon. We know what happened with him but if we are evaluating based on "could he have succeeded here", the answer is unequivocally yes. So one long time assistant who couldn't hack it, and a guy who made some mistakes and overplayed his hand but was ready to win big here. Far from the end of the world, happens in this business.

Then the school made two horrible hires. Simple as that. A bad guy and a good guy, neither of whom could win here. That's caused many to question whether it's possible to win here. Not a valid question IMO. No doubting SJU has it's shortcomings, but winning coaches win with similar or less all the time. Easier to win with more for sure, but possible to win with the same or less. SJU is not a fundamentally flawed basketball program.

Lavin is clearly light years ahead of the last two but unclear whether he is the right profile. For sure, Rysheed is just the latest example of volatility that is way above the norm. Lavin has averaged like 2-3 of these instances, or more, per year since he's been here. Understood the risks early, but at this point it's reasonable to ask when or if it's going to stop. IMO, too focused on the big fish which can overcomplicate things because realistically that's not really who we are so we end up being on the fringes more often than not (at least the last 3 years). We don't need to focus on a Harkless or a Briscoe "saving the program". Great to think about, but this program doesn't need to be saved, it just needs sustainable quality, and all these big swings - even with a mix of hits and misses - have resulted in us going into a conference game in early January with 5 guys averaging over 10 minutes per game, in year 5. That's concerning in terms of long term prospects.

Really rooting hard for those 5 kids and everyone else in SJU uniform today.

Outstanding post SJU15. Man that "sustainable quality" reference rings so true.

But my thing is, I haven't seen this school committing the resources to this program to develop it like I've seen from many schools around the country. Sure, we're paying our coach $2 million + whatever recruiting budget he has, but that seems like the end of the investment into this program.

 

[Amaseinyourface]

Got home a little while ago from the CTK-Molloy game. Rawle as usual a man amongst boys. Anyhow as others have said, this is disappointing but not surprising. There have been warning signs including his demeanor as recently as at the SH game. Based on reports from Paultz, I assume we'll never see the likes of him again. Good bye and good luck.

Just to be clear. I am not certain how long the "leave" will be for. Since the problem has festered I just don't see a quick return.

What you have to love about rooting for this team is the way it keeps you guessing. A little over 48 hours ago, you could draw up a way for there to be two Top 10 teams playing in the Garden Tuesday night. Now a tricky game just got a lot trickier tomorrow and you can draw up a way for there to only be one ranked team playing in the Garden Tuesday night, with the unranked team without one of its two most talented players and returning to its bread and butter under multiple regimes the last 10 years: the 5 man rotation! WE ARE!

Interesting points.

Even if I cast no blame on anyone in this situation, I find myself asking a basic question, should this program be much more stable? Is there anything that can be done to reduce the instability that seems to plague us? If this is the norm, so be it. I can then find another diversion. If it is not, how can we get to a less volatile level & who is responsible for accomplishing that? My desire is to root for a team that has a minimum of drama, continuity, competes for a BE championship annually & goes to the Dance more often than not. As things stand, I have a hard time believing we will achieve that status. It seems like we get headed in the right direction only to be derailed. "Always something" could be our motto.

I've been saying this for awhile, St. John's is a tough sell to get kids to come here. This isn't the 80's anymore, things have changed so much in college BB since then. Of course Lavin gets the blame, but it's almost like he's got to take a chance on imperfect kids. I would wonder what realistic coach we could bring in here that could do a better recruiting job. At least Lavin has us in the running for the top talent. Norm was supposed to be an expert recruiter, and look how badly he failed at it.

*Edit: I don't want to make this seem like a Lavin defense. I'm not happy at all with the way he's seemingly taken recruiting periods off and put our future in a lot of doubt.

I have never subscribed to your view that St Johns is a tough sell. There are schools and programs that have enjoyed or are enjoying success in lesser locations. Gonzaga in Spokane, Xavier in Cincinnati, Villanova in Radnor, Davidson in the sticks, Syracuse in the North Pole, Butler, San Diego State, and others. For Christmas sake, NYC should be an easy sell for hungry and aggressive coaches. Hiring lazies or losers has been our athletic administration's history since Brian Mahoney was endorsed by Lou. The current situation is eerie in that it is shaping up to end like the Jarvis fiasco. Coaches with big egos thinking they deserve(d) contract extension without proving they worked hard enough for it, sabotaging their recruiting efforts with JC talent and walk ons and alienating the fan base. I agree with Paultzman in regard to the length of Rysheed's absence and since the Spring semester does not begin until January 21st, neither party will have any incentive to contact the other. If Jordan returns before that date he may have gotten the message. What message? That I (Lavin ) will ruin your selfish fckn NBA dream by exposing you as uncoachable and making you damaged goods even if it means losing my job since Class of 72 says I am losing it anyway. :angry:

You're missing my point though. You're not selling the top kids on NYC anymore. With the emergence of mainstream media and social media, these guys think they're rock stars in high school. Location hasn't proven to be a factor and time and time again we've seen kids interested in leaving home rather than put NY on their back. Kids are looking to get to the next level by any means necessary, even if they have to go to Podunk U. But the biggest thing is the level of support at schools like Syracuse, using your example. They are the main attraction there. Look how little support there is for st. John's.

Have to disagree. Just look at Xavier located in a rather mundane, not exactly cosmopolitan area with other sports options, albeit less than NY. It attracts three & four star kids for most part from all around the country built on its winning tradition. They then coach the hell out of and develop recruits. It can be done here with steady, competent leadership. Avoid the fools gold of "questionable" elite kids with NBA mania & build a solid core of basketball players. The volatility of our roster is a big factor in destabilizing the program with an end result of being mediocre more often than not. It is quite ok to look at current player & roster issues like Thomas debacle, Jordan & Adonis ineligibility to posit notion that we have to look at the way we do business here. At this stage of Lavin era we should not be looking at possibility of going to battle with such a thin roster. Perhaps we should put blame aside and objectively examine the state of the program, fairly look at who should be held accountable & develop a plan of remediation.

Can't say it better than this. Thanks Paultz.

The last 20 years tend to blend together and make this seem like it's a lot harder than it is. But it isn't so. After a few transitional years of Mahoney after Lou, Fran had this program ready to go to the moon. We know what happened with him but if we are evaluating based on "could he have succeeded here", the answer is unequivocally yes. So one long time assistant who couldn't hack it, and a guy who made some mistakes and overplayed his hand but was ready to win big here. Far from the end of the world, happens in this business.

Then the school made two horrible hires. Simple as that. A bad guy and a good guy, neither of whom could win here. That's caused many to question whether it's possible to win here. Not a valid question IMO. No doubting SJU has it's shortcomings, but winning coaches win with similar or less all the time. Easier to win with more for sure, but possible to win with the same or less. SJU is not a fundamentally flawed basketball program.

Lavin is clearly light years ahead of the last two but unclear whether he is the right profile. For sure, Rysheed is just the latest example of volatility that is way above the norm. Lavin has averaged like 2-3 of these instances, or more, per year since he's been here. Understood the risks early, but at this point it's reasonable to ask when or if it's going to stop. IMO, too focused on the big fish which can overcomplicate things because realistically that's not really who we are so we end up being on the fringes more often than not (at least the last 3 years). We don't need to focus on a Harkless or a Briscoe "saving the program". Great to think about, but this program doesn't need to be saved, it just needs sustainable quality, and all these big swings - even with a mix of hits and misses - have resulted in us going into a conference game in early January with 5 guys averaging over 10 minutes per game, in year 5. That's concerning in terms of long term prospects.

Really rooting hard for those 5 kids and everyone else in SJU uniform today.

Outstanding post SJU15. Man that "sustainable quality" reference rings so true.

Sure, we're paying our coach $2 million + whatever recruiting budget he has, but that seems like the end of the investment into this program.

Im not sure what else you could ask for. 2 mill+ is probably in the 90th percentile

 

[room112]

Got home a little while ago from the CTK-Molloy game. Rawle as usual a man amongst boys. Anyhow as others have said, this is disappointing but not surprising. There have been warning signs including his demeanor as recently as at the SH game. Based on reports from Paultz, I assume we'll never see the likes of him again. Good bye and good luck.

Just to be clear. I am not certain how long the "leave" will be for. Since the problem has festered I just don't see a quick return.

What you have to love about rooting for this team is the way it keeps you guessing. A little over 48 hours ago, you could draw up a way for there to be two Top 10 teams playing in the Garden Tuesday night. Now a tricky game just got a lot trickier tomorrow and you can draw up a way for there to only be one ranked team playing in the Garden Tuesday night, with the unranked team without one of its two most talented players and returning to its bread and butter under multiple regimes the last 10 years: the 5 man rotation! WE ARE!

Interesting points.

Even if I cast no blame on anyone in this situation, I find myself asking a basic question, should this program be much more stable? Is there anything that can be done to reduce the instability that seems to plague us? If this is the norm, so be it. I can then find another diversion. If it is not, how can we get to a less volatile level & who is responsible for accomplishing that? My desire is to root for a team that has a minimum of drama, continuity, competes for a BE championship annually & goes to the Dance more often than not. As things stand, I have a hard time believing we will achieve that status. It seems like we get headed in the right direction only to be derailed. "Always something" could be our motto.

I've been saying this for awhile, St. John's is a tough sell to get kids to come here. This isn't the 80's anymore, things have changed so much in college BB since then. Of course Lavin gets the blame, but it's almost like he's got to take a chance on imperfect kids. I would wonder what realistic coach we could bring in here that could do a better recruiting job. At least Lavin has us in the running for the top talent. Norm was supposed to be an expert recruiter, and look how badly he failed at it.

*Edit: I don't want to make this seem like a Lavin defense. I'm not happy at all with the way he's seemingly taken recruiting periods off and put our future in a lot of doubt.

I have never subscribed to your view that St Johns is a tough sell. There are schools and programs that have enjoyed or are enjoying success in lesser locations. Gonzaga in Spokane, Xavier in Cincinnati, Villanova in Radnor, Davidson in the sticks, Syracuse in the North Pole, Butler, San Diego State, and others. For Christmas sake, NYC should be an easy sell for hungry and aggressive coaches. Hiring lazies or losers has been our athletic administration's history since Brian Mahoney was endorsed by Lou. The current situation is eerie in that it is shaping up to end like the Jarvis fiasco. Coaches with big egos thinking they deserve(d) contract extension without proving they worked hard enough for it, sabotaging their recruiting efforts with JC talent and walk ons and alienating the fan base. I agree with Paultzman in regard to the length of Rysheed's absence and since the Spring semester does not begin until January 21st, neither party will have any incentive to contact the other. If Jordan returns before that date he may have gotten the message. What message? That I (Lavin ) will ruin your selfish fckn NBA dream by exposing you as uncoachable and making you damaged goods even if it means losing my job since Class of 72 says I am losing it anyway. :angry:

You're missing my point though. You're not selling the top kids on NYC anymore. With the emergence of mainstream media and social media, these guys think they're rock stars in high school. Location hasn't proven to be a factor and time and time again we've seen kids interested in leaving home rather than put NY on their back. Kids are looking to get to the next level by any means necessary, even if they have to go to Podunk U. But the biggest thing is the level of support at schools like Syracuse, using your example. They are the main attraction there. Look how little support there is for st. John's.

Have to disagree. Just look at Xavier located in a rather mundane, not exactly cosmopolitan area with other sports options, albeit less than NY. It attracts three & four star kids for most part from all around the country built on its winning tradition. They then coach the hell out of and develop recruits. It can be done here with steady, competent leadership. Avoid the fools gold of "questionable" elite kids with NBA mania & build a solid core of basketball players. The volatility of our roster is a big factor in destabilizing the program with an end result of being mediocre more often than not. It is quite ok to look at current player & roster issues like Thomas debacle, Jordan & Adonis ineligibility to posit notion that we have to look at the way we do business here. At this stage of Lavin era we should not be looking at possibility of going to battle with such a thin roster. Perhaps we should put blame aside and objectively examine the state of the program, fairly look at who should be held accountable & develop a plan of remediation.

How are the sports facilities at Xavier? How is the campus and campus life? How is the fan support? I'm asking because I have no idea.

However, I do know that St. John's plays in a glorified high school gym nightly that is usually less than half full and has no semblance of a campus life (commuter school). I'm not trying to trash St. John's, I'm just stating what it is. When was the last time someone made a reach to come to St. John's because they wanted to elevate NYC? I think Moe Harkless I remember saying that, other than that I don't remember much of it.

Further, this goes to the administration also. The athletics are run like a mom and pop organization and has been for years. It's ridiculous really.

Can't argue with mom and pop point. Xavier plays in a decent arena, but MSG is better. CA admittedly is below average for sure. Xavier is a better academically than SJU & has a decent campus in a dreadful city.

I suggest you look at Seton Hall which is in Metro area in a lousy location with a so so campus. They seem to be attracting solid kids recently facing same challenges as SJU. However they are accomplishing that, it would appear it can be done. Like Tiny or not, SH appears to be putting in the work to succeed. Recruits appear to be finding SH to be a good destination. In the long run can they sustain that? I think so, but who knows. It is not about geography, facilities, kids leaving NYC, etc. It is more about leadership and surmounting those shortcomings Imo.

See I think Seton Hall is a poor example. They've had 3 NCAA tourney appearances in the past 20+ years!!! The last coming nearly a decade ago. Until recently they've looked dead in the water. Willard was on the verge of getting fired and he pulled that Tiny stunt. Who knows what else he's been pulling to save his job?