It's not that statistically significant. Assuming 15 shots per game, that's the difference of 1 make per game. Can that matter? Sure. But games don't get played on average, the 7-16s get mixed in with the 1-11s. If anything the critique of Harrison is not his average, it's the penchant for the 1-11 type stinker. I'm not going to make that critique, because without him we're playing on Wednesday night in the BET maybe with an outside chance at the NIT, but if one were to be made regarding his shooting performance that would probably be it.
Harrison from Three
- Thread starter JohnnyFan
- Start date
It's not that statistically significant. Assuming 15 shots per game, that's the difference of 1 make per game. Can that matter? Sure. But games don't get played on average, the 7-16s get mixed in with the 1-11s. If anything the critique of Harrison is not his average, it's the penchant for the 1-11 type stinker. I'm not going to make that critique, because without him we're playing on Wednesday night in the BET maybe with an outside chance at the NIT, but if one were to be made regarding his shooting performance that would probably be it.
JackofVirginia
Active member
I've been a supporter of Harrison since he came to St.John's. And guess what? I don't care if he's shooting 1 for 11 I want him in the game.
MBoutchatski
Member
A 7% difference, is a big difference over the course of a whole season...
I've still got two pages to read so this may have already been stated, but to me it would seem obvious that the best situation is the ball in Jordan's hands, with the advice not to force it but to create opportunities for Dlo or someone inside unless his look is just too good. Harrison's at his worst in end games when he's forced to look like he's playing PG while he's actually trying to create for himself since the team doesn't (or didn't) really have another option. With the lead and fouls coming it's DLo 24/7.
beast of the east
Active member
9 for 20 is 45%, 8 for 20 is 40%. but over the course of a season, Hardy was making 20% more of his field goals -- 45.6% is 20% better than 38%. It's significantly better, IMO
It's one made shot per game whether it's one game or an entire season.
Dwight's senior season he averaged 5.9/13.1, this year DLo is averaging 5.1/13.4 (see it's actually less than 1 made basket per game)
DLo is shooting 3's and FT's at a higher percentage than Dwight did as a Sr as well (and assists and rebounds and blocks and less turnovers).
That 1-11 game is awful because of the situation it came in, just like that layup against Pitt is amazing because of the situation it came in. Stuff happens. But I will say Hardy's team handled end of game far better than this team does.
I remember when Dwight was 16 for 56 (28%) through 6 games senior year and some folks wanted him benched even thought the team was 5-1. IOW we are all very amusing, almost all the time.
beast of the east
Active member
since numbers are numbers think of it as the difference between driving 38 mph and 45 mph. At the end of an hour, you've driven 7 miles further, a significant distant further. It's hard to shoot 45% from the field when you have a slew of bad shooting games (like the 1-11 game the other night vs. Xavier).
As Frank Martin would say, It's still just 1 fu-king made basket per game, a$$hole!.
But seriously, your 7 miles DOES = less than 1 made basket per game. It's when the misses come in bunches, and no one makes up for them because you're really the only scoring option, that they get magnified, quite oft with great emotion.
IOW? I need that one spelled out.
Wow im an idiot. WIAI! Thanks
beast of the east
Active member
As Frank Martin would say, It's still just 1 fu-king made basket per game, a$$hole!.
But seriously, your 7 miles DOES = less than 1 made basket per game. It's when the misses come in bunches, and no one makes up for them because you're really the only scoring option, that they get magnified, quite oft with great emotion.
To be fair, Harrison's numbers sag in the Big East conference, where his shooting percentage dips to 35%. As far as him being the only scoring option, Sampson at 49.5%, Jordan at 45%, Sanchez at 49.5%, and even Pointer at 46% have shot with more accuracy. Phil Greene, at 35% also shoots poorly in conference. So using the 20 shot analogy, Harrison is really 7/20 vs. 9/20 in conference - or 2 baskets and 4 points per game.
FWIW Jordan has shot much better in conference than out, an indication of his vast improvement. Sanchez, Pointer, and Sampson about the same. Harrison and Greene shot much better out of conference, and indication that their stats are padded against inferior opponents.
So, again, with an inability to raise his game in the clutch, in conference there is a 2/3 likelihood of not socring when the ball is in Harrison's hands in crunch time. These numbers support having the ball in Jordan's hands down the stretch, where he shoots better, has 41 turnovers to Harrison's 31, but 51 assists to Harrison's 24. He is a higher % shooter, better to the hole, and a better distributor.
Moose
Well-known member
As Frank Martin would say, It's still just 1 fu-king made basket per game, a$$hole!.
But seriously, your 7 miles DOES = less than 1 made basket per game. It's when the misses come in bunches, and no one makes up for them because you're really the only scoring option, that they get magnified, quite oft with great emotion.
To be fair, Harrison's numbers sag in the Big East conference, where his shooting percentage dips to 35%. As far as him being the only scoring option, Sampson at 49.5%, Jordan at 45%, Sanchez at 49.5%, and even Pointer at 46% have shot with more accuracy. Phil Greene, at 35% also shoots poorly in conference. So using the 20 shot analogy, Harrison is really 7/20 vs. 9/20 in conference - or 2 baskets and 4 points per game.
FWIW Jordan has shot much better in conference than out, an indication of his vast improvement. Sanchez, Pointer, and Sampson about the same. Harrison and Greene shot much better out of conference, and indication that their stats are padded against inferior opponents.
So, again, with an inability to raise his game in the clutch, in conference there is a 2/3 likelihood of not socring when the ball is in Harrison's hands in crunch time. These numbers support having the ball in Jordan's hands down the stretch, where he shoots better, has 41 turnovers to Harrison's 31, but 51 assists to Harrison's 24. He is a higher % shooter, better to the hole, and a better distributor.
The only issue with reporting Karr, Jordan, Sanchez and Pointer with higher percentages is where are most of their shots from? Karr is the only one that with no data I would think shoots close to the majority of his shots as jumpers, yet most on these boards don't like him shooting and wish he would stay down low. Most of Jordan's 'shots' are on drives. Sanchez doesn't shoot as many J's as early in the year and now has runners and post plays. Dom.....well no comment.
beast of the east
Active member
As Frank Martin would say, It's still just 1 fu-king made basket per game, a$$hole!.
But seriously, your 7 miles DOES = less than 1 made basket per game. It's when the misses come in bunches, and no one makes up for them because you're really the only scoring option, that they get magnified, quite oft with great emotion.
To be fair, Harrison's numbers sag in the Big East conference, where his shooting percentage dips to 35%. As far as him being the only scoring option, Sampson at 49.5%, Jordan at 45%, Sanchez at 49.5%, and even Pointer at 46% have shot with more accuracy. Phil Greene, at 35% also shoots poorly in conference. So using the 20 shot analogy, Harrison is really 7/20 vs. 9/20 in conference - or 2 baskets and 4 points per game.
FWIW Jordan has shot much better in conference than out, an indication of his vast improvement. Sanchez, Pointer, and Sampson about the same. Harrison and Greene shot much better out of conference, and indication that their stats are padded against inferior opponents.
So, again, with an inability to raise his game in the clutch, in conference there is a 2/3 likelihood of not socring when the ball is in Harrison's hands in crunch time. These numbers support having the ball in Jordan's hands down the stretch, where he shoots better, has 41 turnovers to Harrison's 31, but 51 assists to Harrison's 24. He is a higher % shooter, better to the hole, and a better distributor.
The only issue with reporting Karr, Jordan, Sanchez and Pointer with higher percentages is where are most of their shots from? Karr is the only one that with no data I would think shoots close to the majority of his shots as jumpers, yet most on these boards don't like him shooting and wish he would stay down low. Most of Jordan's 'shots' are on drives. Sanchez doesn't shoot as many J's as early in the year and now has runners and post plays. Dom.....well no comment.
I'm aware, and your point is accurate if we are setting up for a 20 foot shot, then Harrison is obviously a top option among that group. But the object of basketball is to score, and who cares where those guys are scoring from - they are more accurate shooters on the court when the ball leaves their hands. If you look at the numbers of shots Harrison has taken, his 35% in conference drags down the team shooting percentage, and becomes a key reason we are 9-8 and struggling. To his credit he is hitting 90% of his BE Ft shots, and also believe it or not, is our BEST defensive rebounder. On sheer percentage improvement 45% is a 40% improvement over 35%. I thought is sophomore campaign was a bad shooting campaign to toss away, but it's becoming clear that against the best competition, Harrison's numbers drop off. Don't make the mistake of saying, well, if you add 2-4 points to each of our losses, they'd probably be losses, because there would be uneven distribution. In some games, none, in other games 8 or more points. So it's reasonable to assert that if Harrison shot in the mid 40s or better, we may be at 11 or even 12 wins already.
That being said, I think Harrison's turnaround from being very close to being removed from the program to solid citizen, team leader, and enthusiastic supporter has been startling and worth far more than better performance on the court. For that alone, I have extremely high regard for him as a person, and I hope it carries him far in life.
As Frank Martin would say, It's still just 1 fu-king made basket per game, a$$hole!.
But seriously, your 7 miles DOES = less than 1 made basket per game. It's when the misses come in bunches, and no one makes up for them because you're really the only scoring option, that they get magnified, quite oft with great emotion.
To be fair, Harrison's numbers sag in the Big East conference, where his shooting percentage dips to 35%. As far as him being the only scoring option, Sampson at 49.5%, Jordan at 45%, Sanchez at 49.5%, and even Pointer at 46% have shot with more accuracy. Phil Greene, at 35% also shoots poorly in conference. So using the 20 shot analogy, Harrison is really 7/20 vs. 9/20 in conference - or 2 baskets and 4 points per game.
FWIW Jordan has shot much better in conference than out, an indication of his vast improvement. Sanchez, Pointer, and Sampson about the same. Harrison and Greene shot much better out of conference, and indication that their stats are padded against inferior opponents.
So, again, with an inability to raise his game in the clutch, in conference there is a 2/3 likelihood of not socring when the ball is in Harrison's hands in crunch time. These numbers support having the ball in Jordan's hands down the stretch, where he shoots better, has 41 turnovers to Harrison's 31, but 51 assists to Harrison's 24. He is a higher % shooter, better to the hole, and a better distributor.
The only issue with reporting Karr, Jordan, Sanchez and Pointer with higher percentages is where are most of their shots from? Karr is the only one that with no data I would think shoots close to the majority of his shots as jumpers, yet most on these boards don't like him shooting and wish he would stay down low. Most of Jordan's 'shots' are on drives. Sanchez doesn't shoot as many J's as early in the year and now has runners and post plays. Dom.....well no comment.
I'm aware, and your point is accurate if we are setting up for a 20 foot shot, then Harrison is obviously a top option among that group. But the object of basketball is to score, and who cares where those guys are scoring from - they are more accurate shooters on the court when the ball leaves their hands. If you look at the numbers of shots Harrison has taken, his 35% in conference drags down the team shooting percentage, and becomes a key reason we are 9-8 and struggling. To his credit he is hitting 90% of his BE Ft shots, and also believe it or not, is our BEST defensive rebounder. On sheer percentage improvement 45% is a 40% improvement over 35%. I thought is sophomore campaign was a bad shooting campaign to toss away, but it's becoming clear that against the best competition, Harrison's numbers drop off. Don't make the mistake of saying, well, if you add 2-4 points to each of our losses, they'd probably be losses, because there would be uneven distribution. In some games, none, in other games 8 or more points. So it's reasonable to assert that if Harrison shot in the mid 40s or better, we may be at 11 or even 12 wins already.
That being said, I think Harrison's turnaround from being very close to being removed from the program to solid citizen, team leader, and enthusiastic supporter has been startling and worth far more than better performance on the court. For that alone, I have extremely high regard for him as a person, and I hope it carries him far in life.
The amount of times he gets fouled and the number of free throws that he makes greatly increases his effectiveness. I think he has more free throws made then Sampson, Jordan and Greene combined. Someone would have to fact check that.
beast of the east
Active member
As Frank Martin would say, It's still just 1 fu-king made basket per game, a$$hole!.
But seriously, your 7 miles DOES = less than 1 made basket per game. It's when the misses come in bunches, and no one makes up for them because you're really the only scoring option, that they get magnified, quite oft with great emotion.
To be fair, Harrison's numbers sag in the Big East conference, where his shooting percentage dips to 35%. As far as him being the only scoring option, Sampson at 49.5%, Jordan at 45%, Sanchez at 49.5%, and even Pointer at 46% have shot with more accuracy. Phil Greene, at 35% also shoots poorly in conference. So using the 20 shot analogy, Harrison is really 7/20 vs. 9/20 in conference - or 2 baskets and 4 points per game.
FWIW Jordan has shot much better in conference than out, an indication of his vast improvement. Sanchez, Pointer, and Sampson about the same. Harrison and Greene shot much better out of conference, and indication that their stats are padded against inferior opponents.
So, again, with an inability to raise his game in the clutch, in conference there is a 2/3 likelihood of not socring when the ball is in Harrison's hands in crunch time. These numbers support having the ball in Jordan's hands down the stretch, where he shoots better, has 41 turnovers to Harrison's 31, but 51 assists to Harrison's 24. He is a higher % shooter, better to the hole, and a better distributor.
The only issue with reporting Karr, Jordan, Sanchez and Pointer with higher percentages is where are most of their shots from? Karr is the only one that with no data I would think shoots close to the majority of his shots as jumpers, yet most on these boards don't like him shooting and wish he would stay down low. Most of Jordan's 'shots' are on drives. Sanchez doesn't shoot as many J's as early in the year and now has runners and post plays. Dom.....well no comment.
I'm aware, and your point is accurate if we are setting up for a 20 foot shot, then Harrison is obviously a top option among that group. But the object of basketball is to score, and who cares where those guys are scoring from - they are more accurate shooters on the court when the ball leaves their hands. If you look at the numbers of shots Harrison has taken, his 35% in conference drags down the team shooting percentage, and becomes a key reason we are 9-8 and struggling. To his credit he is hitting 90% of his BE Ft shots, and also believe it or not, is our BEST defensive rebounder. On sheer percentage improvement 45% is a 40% improvement over 35%. I thought is sophomore campaign was a bad shooting campaign to toss away, but it's becoming clear that against the best competition, Harrison's numbers drop off. Don't make the mistake of saying, well, if you add 2-4 points to each of our losses, they'd probably be losses, because there would be uneven distribution. In some games, none, in other games 8 or more points. So it's reasonable to assert that if Harrison shot in the mid 40s or better, we may be at 11 or even 12 wins already.
That being said, I think Harrison's turnaround from being very close to being removed from the program to solid citizen, team leader, and enthusiastic supporter has been startling and worth far more than better performance on the court. For that alone, I have extremely high regard for him as a person, and I hope it carries him far in life.
The amount of times he gets fouled and the number of free throws that he makes greatly increases his effectiveness. I think he has more free throws made then Sampson, Jordan and Greene combined. Someone would have to fact check that.
It's a reasonable point, but also consider that a foul in the act of shooting is not counted as a shot attempt. So, for example, if you go 5 for 14 from the field (35.7%), but get fouled 3 times in the act of shooting, and make all 6, you end up with Harrison's Big East average production 16 points (17 if he hits a 3). In reality he would be 5/17 (29.4%). Of course there is a value of drawing fouls and putting the opponent in foul trouble. It appears to me that many of Harrison's FT attempts appear to be not in the act of shooting, especially late in games when we have the lead. Strategically we like the ball in his hands late when we have a lead because he is a MUCH better FT shooter than Jordan, Greene, Sampson, etc.
MBoutchatski
Member
1-2 exttra baskets per game accounts for 2-6 extra points per game, accounting for roughly 80-200 extra points per season. I know this isn't perfect math, because free throws aren't accounted, but the point remains that even 1 extra basket per game would account to an extra 2-3 wins for our team. How would our season look right now if we were already sitting on 21 wins?
Harrison has had an awful shooting season...lets hope he brings his A game on Saturday!
Harrison has had an awful shooting season...lets hope he brings his A game on Saturday!
The quantitative analysis is a key measure of comparative worth, but not the only one.
The reason almost all of us want him on the floor is not because he is a stat leader but
because of his leadership.
His intensity, reflected as competitive fire, combined with a desire to assume responsibility when someone has
to take charge is how his leadership skill is transmitted. It is his most critical value to the team. His first two
years it would be discounted by displays of petulance, but this year he seems to have exorcised that spoiled brat.
The reason almost all of us want him on the floor is not because he is a stat leader but
because of his leadership.
His intensity, reflected as competitive fire, combined with a desire to assume responsibility when someone has
to take charge is how his leadership skill is transmitted. It is his most critical value to the team. His first two
years it would be discounted by displays of petulance, but this year he seems to have exorcised that spoiled brat.
All valid points you raise Mike but there is no one else on this team that is prepared to take a key shot.
Greene , Pointer, Obekpa, Branch , Sampson , etc are contributors to Dlos shooting percentage. Rysheed may be the guy with the ball in his hand at the end of the game or a player who will take more shots as his career evolves but he is not that player today.