Four Recruting Classes: A Summary

[quote="Mike Zaun" post=316903][quote="Marillac" post=316871][quote="Knight" post=316863]Starting to think that if there is no invite to the dance, then there is an amicable parting of the ways with CM and staff. Back to square one, but this time with an AD leading.[/quote]

Why even bring this up now?[/quote]

Why not? It's fair game IMO...of course we should all wait until the end of the year to judge and hopefully things get back on track, but fanbases of teams are constantly discussing this stuff. Were us Jets fans not allowed to discuss the possibility of a Bowles replacement while he was still coach? That happened for years even before he was on the hottest of seats and it was warm. If it can't be discussed here then where can it be discussed? It's a SJ basketball forum after all. Just how I see it. People need outlets to discuss these things, it's healthy after a buildup of frustration. You give him the rest of the year and see what happens, but it's not outrageous to discuss the possibility IMO simultaneously. No one is speaking in definite terms. Just my take, feel free to disagree.

Also we are sju, the tri state is chock full of talent. That's not the issue. The issue is we don't have a winning culture and our staff may need tweaking. I think both are related.[/quote]

This is 1,000% not the time to discuss a coaching change. How can you compare a 15 and 4 team with this or almost any version of the Jets? The team is still on the right side of the bubble. Just way off base at this point.
 
That is not the issue and SJU has as much if not more to offer then other BE schools that are kicking SJU all over the floor in recruiting. Creativity is fine but that is only part of the solution.. Also this excuse was never used for Jarvis, Roberts or Lavin. For crying out loud Providence is a dump. They did nothing for years upon years. In year 2 Cooley takes them to the NIT and 5 straight years to the NCAA's and 2 times to the BE title game. I think SJU can match that with the right coach if not exceed that. Instead we are told the ultimate goal was to "improve" over 4 years.

After this year even if it is a pretty good year, putting aside a potential coaching change which I don't believe even in a bad year would happen, Coach needs to sit down and ask himself does he have it in to make the necessary changes both to himself and potentially the staff to make this program what he wants it to be. Again he didn't leave a nice life in California to sit here and hope every 4 years they have a decent shot at the NCAA's. So we know he wants to win. The question is after 4 years does he understand the work and staff make up it takes to win consistently in major college basketball. I myself would love for him to succeed. I think it would a tremendous story, but I am not going to make excuses for him when it is not warranted just because his last name is "Mullin."
 
[quote="we are sju" post=316901]Not sure why people don't seem to understand that ST John's University is not a desirable spot for big time HS recruits? Outside of getting someone shady like Cal or Sean Miller, which will never happen not going to get talented HS recruits w/o baggage accept for the random kid that truly wants to stay hope. And the problem with that is NY is no longer the talent base it was when Louie was coaching. To get talent whoever the coach is, he or she (When Mullin leaves who knows where next coach comes from so not ruling anything out) will have to be creative.[/quote]

Granted our facilities are not on par with most successful high-major programs and we still suffer for our ‘commuter school’ label, but Gonzaga, early on in building a nationa basketball rep, had a lousy campus and facilities and still plays in a weak conference, and Louisiville is, well, in Louisiville, and Seton Hall is a small school in a leafy suburb, while Providence is, well, in Providence.
What these other schools have, are superb Staffs and wise and energetic ADs who have made correct decisiones on recruits and modernizing their facilities and who have built winning programs.
That’s our model and I see no reason why St. John’s, in NYC, in the BEC, cannot attain it.
 
[quote="Ray Morgan" post=316904][quote="we are sju" post=316901]Not sure why people don't seem to understand that ST John's University is not a desirable spot for big time HS recruits? Outside of getting someone shady like Cal or Sean Miller, which will never happen not going to get talented HS recruits w/o baggage accept for the random kid that truly wants to stay hope. And the problem with that is NY is no longer the talent base it was when Louie was coaching. To get talent whoever the coach is, he or she (When Mullin leaves who knows where next coach comes from so not ruling anything out) will have to be creative.[/quote]

Can you define creative?[/quote]

Rysheed Jordan, Zach Brown, Norvel Pelle, juco, transfers, foreign kids. Basically what we have been trying to do.
I agree last two coaches did not do a good job with both roster and position balance. But again they are scrambling around trying to get talent, so that is sometimes the trade off.
 
[quote="Ray Morgan" post=316907][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316903][quote="Marillac" post=316871][quote="Knight" post=316863]Starting to think that if there is no invite to the dance, then there is an amicable parting of the ways with CM and staff. Back to square one, but this time with an AD leading.[/quote]

Why even bring this up now?[/quote]

Why not? It's fair game IMO...of course we should all wait until the end of the year to judge and hopefully things get back on track, but fanbases of teams are constantly discussing this stuff. Were us Jets fans not allowed to discuss the possibility of a Bowles replacement while he was still coach? That happened for years even before he was on the hottest of seats and it was warm. If it can't be discussed here then where can it be discussed? It's a SJ basketball forum after all. Just how I see it. People need outlets to discuss these things, it's healthy after a buildup of frustration. You give him the rest of the year and see what happens, but it's not outrageous to discuss the possibility IMO simultaneously. No one is speaking in definite terms. Just my take, feel free to disagree.

Also we are sju, the tri state is chock full of talent. That's not the issue. The issue is we don't have a winning culture and our staff may need tweaking. I think both are related.[/quote]

This is 1,000% not the time to discuss a coaching change. How can you compare a 15 and 4 team with this or almost any version of the Jets? The team is still on the right side of the bubble. Just way off base at this point.[/quote]

15-4 includes a fool's gold OOC record. Our real record is 3-4. Let's hope that changes and fast. Kinda like how competitive colleges want to see your GPA with only core classes aka real classes and not with Gym, Art, and Music factored in.
 
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[quote="Chicago Days" post=316909][quote="we are sju" post=316901]Not sure why people don't seem to understand that ST John's University is not a desirable spot for big time HS recruits? Outside of getting someone shady like Cal or Sean Miller, which will never happen not going to get talented HS recruits w/o baggage accept for the random kid that truly wants to stay hope. And the problem with that is NY is no longer the talent base it was when Louie was coaching. To get talent whoever the coach is, he or she (When Mullin leaves who knows where next coach comes from so not ruling anything out) will have to be creative.[/quote]

Granted our facilities are not on par with most successful high-major programs and we still suffer for our ‘commuter school’ label, but Gonzaga, early on in building a nationa basketball rep, had a lousy campus and facilities and still plays in a weak conference, and Louisiville is, well, in Louisiville, and Seton Hall is a small school in a leafy suburb, while Providence is, well, in Providence.
What these other schools have, are superb Staffs and wise and energetic ADs who have made correct decisiones on recruits and modernizing their facilities and who have built winning programs.
That’s our model and I see no reason why St. John’s, in NYC, in the BEC, cannot attain it.[/quote]

It is in Queens, a commuter school, campus is not great and judging by cheerleaders has a coed problem. Tack on we have been mediocre to terrible for going on what 25 years......Yes if someone could figure out to get us in tourney consistently for a prolonged period of time then yes the recruiting will see an uptick. But therein lies the rub.Have to win before you get the big HS recruits. Now how do we do that w/o throwing out blanket "we need to get better HS recruits"?
 
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Since I have been a fan the most highly rated HS recruits we have gotten have always been NYC kids that wanted to stay home. Now NYC is now the same and a lot of these kids are already leaving in HS to go to Prep schools. Who were our most highly rated out of the tri-state area recruits? Harrison, Jordan, Pointer, Sampson, Sproling? Not a long or great list.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=316903][quote="Marillac" post=316871][quote="Knight" post=316863]Starting to think that if there is no invite to the dance, then there is an amicable parting of the ways with CM and staff. Back to square one, but this time with an AD leading.[/quote]

Why even bring this up now?[/quote]

Why not? It's fair game IMO...of course we should all wait until the end of the year to judge and hopefully things get back on track, but fanbases of teams are constantly discussing this stuff. Were us Jets fans not allowed to discuss the possibility of a Bowles replacement while he was still coach? That happened for years even before he was on the hottest of seats and it was warm. If it can't be discussed here then where can it be discussed? It's a SJ basketball forum after all. Just how I see it. People need outlets to discuss these things, it's healthy after a buildup of frustration. You give him the rest of the year and see what happens, but it's not outrageous to discuss the possibility IMO simultaneously. No one is speaking in definite terms. Just my take, feel free to disagree.

Also we are sju, the tri state is chock full of talent. That's not the issue. The issue is we don't have a winning culture and our staff may need tweaking. I think both are related. If it's not allowed here, anyone can feel free to discuss it on the Mullin's Maniacs forum ;)[/quote]

You're just wrong man. This is not the time. How do you even judge a team mid-season following a loss? It's absurd.
We could win just two more or go on to win the Big East and make the Sweet 16. Why not just wait 8-9 weeks and judge the full season?

How can anyone seriously be discussing firing ANOTHER coach?! Do we EVER learn? It's a 3-5 year rebuild every goddamn time. You lose commitments and rapport built with kids spanning 4-5 classes.

Mullin isnt going anywhere next year so this talk does nothing but put negative energy out there and make it tougher for our staff to recruit the missing pieces of a team that could be better next year.
 
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[quote="we are sju" post=316917]Since I have been a fan the most highly rated HS recruits we have gotten have always been NYC kids that wanted to stay home. Now NYC is now the same and a lot of these kids are already leaving in HS to go to Prep schools. Who were our most highly rated out of the tri-state area recruits? Harrison, Jordan, Pointer, Sampson, Sproling? Not a long or great list.[/quote]

If schools with similar attributes are getting HS players to build a program around, then so should St. John's. It's how to do it that has to be answered. Whether we go on a nice run from here or not, there is always reason to find ways to get better, and have sustained success. The landscape in NY may have changed, but this recruiting season there were a good number of 4 and 5 star players with NY roots, whether they prepped elsewhere for a year or not.
 
[quote="Ray Morgan" post=316919][quote="we are sju" post=316917]Since I have been a fan the most highly rated HS recruits we have gotten have always been NYC kids that wanted to stay home. Now NYC is now the same and a lot of these kids are already leaving in HS to go to Prep schools. Who were our most highly rated out of the tri-state area recruits? Harrison, Jordan, Pointer, Sampson, Sproling? Not a long or great list.[/quote]

If schools with similar attributes are getting HS players to build a program around, then so should St. John's. It's how to do it that has to be answered. Whether we go on a nice run from here or not, there is always reason to find ways to get better, and have sustained success. The landscape in NY may have changed, but this recruiting season there were a good number of 4 and 5 star players with NY roots, whether they prepped elsewhere for a year or not.[/quote]

We have not had a coach that has had any sustained success since Lou left. And outside of Norm for some insane reason this fan base has hated even the coaches (Fran, Jarvis, Lavin) that has had even modest success. And part of the reason was always because"coach so and so has gotten lazy with recruiting". The reason is because having the same success that Lou had is not sustainable here. Have to get a younger guy who has a system and will recruit to fit his system and let him grow with the program. But most on here will never let that happen. You all want the instant gratification and that is not happening here!
 
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[quote="we are sju" post=316921][quote="Ray Morgan" post=316919][quote="we are sju" post=316917]Since I have been a fan the most highly rated HS recruits we have gotten have always been NYC kids that wanted to stay home. Now NYC is now the same and a lot of these kids are already leaving in HS to go to Prep schools. Who were our most highly rated out of the tri-state area recruits? Harrison, Jordan, Pointer, Sampson, Sproling? Not a long or great list.[/quote]

If schools with similar attributes are getting HS players to build a program around, then so should St. John's. It's how to do it that has to be answered. Whether we go on a nice run from here or not, there is always reason to find ways to get better, and have sustained success. The landscape in NY may have changed, but this recruiting season there were a good number of 4 and 5 star players with NY roots, whether they prepped elsewhere for a year or not.[/quote]

We have not had a coach that has had any sustained success since Lou left. And outside of Norm for some insane reason this fan base has hated even the coaches (Fran, Jarvis, Lavin) that has had even modest success. And part of the reason was always because"coach so and so has gotten lazy with recruiting". The reason is because having the same success that Lou had is not sustainable here. Have to get a younger guy who has a system and will recruit to fit his system. But most on here will never let that happen. You all want the instant gratification and that is not happening here![/quote]

Our fanbase is delusional. We hate every coach! Even when Lou was winning 20+ a year there were complainers. Thank God there was no forum then. Less than a year after Jarvis won the BIg East and less than two years removed from coming within on possession of a Final Four people wanted Jarvis fired!!!!!!

Lavin won 20 almost every year and was HATED.

CHRIS MULLIN has us projected to dance and just got a commitment from the #58 recruit in 2020 and we are discussing his replacement?! CHRIS MULLIN--the face of our program. Stop and think of what's happening fellas.

If you can't handle being 15-4....find another hobby or another team. It doesn't get much better for St. John's.
 
[quote="Marillac" post=316925][quote="we are sju" post=316921][quote="Ray Morgan" post=316919][quote="we are sju" post=316917]Since I have been a fan the most highly rated HS recruits we have gotten have always been NYC kids that wanted to stay home. Now NYC is now the same and a lot of these kids are already leaving in HS to go to Prep schools. Who were our most highly rated out of the tri-state area recruits? Harrison, Jordan, Pointer, Sampson, Sproling? Not a long or great list.[/quote]

The ironical thing is that people are complaining that Chris Mullin can't get a type of recruit like Chris Mullin. Maybe the "next Chris Mullin" doesn't want to come here win player of the year go to a Final Four then come back coach a stagnate program and get bitched about? Maybe just maybe you are all a part of the problem.
 
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As someone who wasn’t around for the Lou years and doesn’t hold the program up to that esteem, I will say that I still disagree with Marillac’s post.

Ignoring some of the revisionist history about Lavin, cherry picking him “almost winning 20 every year” completely ignores a lot of the completely valid criticisms about him from the years he was a coach...

When it comes to mullin, as a young fan who watched some of the norm years, all of the Lavin years, and have personally been on campus for three of the mullin years...

I don’t want to believe that 15-4 and 3-4 in conference play is the best we are gonna get here.

WASJU, you say fans won’t be satisfied unless we reach Lou type success. Maybe that’s true for some, but it’s also wildly unfair.

I’m sure a lot of people on this board would sign up for making the tournament 6 times a decade, with a few of those trips including some tournament wins. Maybe a sweet 16 appearance. That’s not asking for Lou levels of success.

The fact that marillac says where we are now, a bubble team, is the “best St. John’s is gonna get” is awfully troubling to me. We don’t have don’t have to have carnessecca type success, but I think fans should demand more.

With all that being said, I still think we make the tournament this year and I think Mullin sticks around, for now. If we miss the tournament, I’m not gonna advocate for him coming back, though.

The one thing marillac said that I will agree with, is that firing coaches and starting over, losing connections with recruits, it is frustrating and does set us back. But if a coach shows over and over that he is incapable of winning, we have to make the tough decision and move on.
 
If someone started a topic entitled "Fashion experts predict red to be be the new in color for summer", responses would immediately appear saying red would have been the hot color years ago if Mullin was replaced Every topic ends up the same way. There are news headlines about corruption in college basketball related to recruiting. Overall, the topic of recruiting is fascinating. How it works, what counts the most, how to succeed at it, how to fail at it, whatever. Yet maybe 1 out of 5 posts are on topic, and the rest are about the perceived failings of a coach that is 15 and 4 and has wins over Coach K, Jay Wright and this season Marquette on his resume. Recruiting is important enough for members of many programs to offer money, and women, and jobs to family members. It matters enough to spend thousands of miles building relationships with players that don't want or need the illegal money but want a program with a staff and HC they or their family trusts, or that has the best chance of advancing their career goals or with a style that fits their game. So thanks to all that have shared their thoughts on the recruiting process and St. John's place in it.
 
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[quote="Jack Williams" post=316927]As someone who wasn’t around for the Lou years and doesn’t hold the program up to that esteem, I will say that I still disagree with Marillac’s post.

Ignoring some of the revisionist history about Lavin, cherry picking him “almost winning 20 every year” completely ignores a lot of the completely valid criticisms about him from the years he was a coach...

When it comes to mullin, as a young fan who watched some of the norm years, all of the Lavin years, and have personally been on campus for three of the mullin years...

I don’t want to believe that 15-4 and 3-4 in conference play is the best we are gonna get here.

WASJU, you say fans won’t be satisfied unless we reach Lou type success. Maybe that’s true for some, but it’s also wildly unfair.

I’m sure a lot of people on this board would sign up for making the tournament 6 times a decade, with a few of those trips including some tournament wins. Maybe a sweet 16 appearance. That’s not asking for Lou levels of success.

The fact that marillac says where we are now, a bubble team, is the “best St. John’s is gonna get” is awfully troubling to me. We don’t have don’t have to have carnessecca type success, but I think fans should demand more.

With all that being said, I still think we make the tournament this year and I think Mullin sticks around, for now. If we miss the tournament, I’m not gonna advocate for him coming back, though.

The one thing marillac said that I will agree with, is that firing coaches and starting over, losing connections with recruits, it is frustrating and does set us back. But if a coach shows over and over that he is incapable of winning, we have to make the tough decision and move on.[/quote]

We haven't won a single tournament game in a season that started with a 2 at the beginning of the year, Jack. When was the last time we won two games in the Big East tournament?!

Those are called facts. That is evidence to support my conclusion. Your conclusion is supported by feelings.

Maybe we can end this trend...it's certainly possible...but it won't happen with another firing. It will take sustained success and improvement. Roster building with guys like Williams who don't demand 25 minutes as true freshman. That is how every good program in this conference builds. Creighton redshirted Justin Patton! Xavier redshirts everyone. Nova redshirted Donte. Guys that don't get redshirted accept smaller roles as underclassmen.
 
[quote="Jack Williams" post=316927]As someone who wasn’t around for the Lou years and doesn’t hold the program up to that esteem, I will say that I still disagree with Marillac’s post.

Ignoring some of the revisionist history about Lavin, cherry picking him “almost winning 20 every year” completely ignores a lot of the completely valid criticisms about him from the years he was a coach...

When it comes to mullin, as a young fan who watched some of the norm years, all of the Lavin years, and have personally been on campus for three of the mullin years...

I don’t want to believe that 15-4 and 3-4 in conference play is the best we are gonna get here.

WASJU, you say fans won’t be satisfied unless we reach Lou type success. Maybe that’s true for some, but it’s also wildly unfair.

I’m sure a lot of people on this board would sign up for making the tournament 6 times a decade, with a few of those trips including some tournament wins. Maybe a sweet 16 appearance. That’s not asking for Lou levels of success.

The fact that marillac says where we are now, a bubble team, is the “best St. John’s is gonna get” is awfully troubling to me. We don’t have don’t have to have carnessecca type success, but I think fans should demand more.

With all that being said, I still think we make the tournament this year and I think Mullin sticks around, for now. If we miss the tournament, I’m not gonna advocate for him coming back, though.

The one thing marillac said that I will agree with, is that firing coaches and starting over, losing connections with recruits, it is frustrating and does set us back. But if a coach shows over and over that he is incapable of winning, we have to make the tough decision and move on.[/quote]

Was not a big Lavin fan. In fact think he was a fraud and a chowder head. With that being said I was on board with extending him even though I am 99% sure it would have ended horribly. I posted on the two sites that Lavin EARNED an extension. Most on this board did not agree with that sentiment. Outside of a clear cut replacement, the absolute best player to ever play here or Walter Berry getting hired, I thought he should have gotten an extension. Results wise Lavin did enough to at least placate people. It did not happen that way.
 
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I feel that a major cause of the lack of H.S recruits is the make up of the coaching staff. Matt - recruiting , Mitch - player development, St. Jean - game coaching, Mullin - spread out all three facets and many other non player responsibilities.
When Mullin was hired Matt was brought in to concentrate on transfers, his expertise and he has performed very well. Slice was hired to probably concentrate on H. S. Recruits both local and out of the area. A problem arises and Mitch is brought in.
SJU ends up allocating 25 per cent of its coaching on recruiting which almost all experts feel is about 80 per cent of importance in building a program. This may have been OK to try but it has been obvious for years the current staff make up doesn't work. It doesn't take a basketball genius to figure out St. Jean should have both in game responsibilities and player development , freeing up a position to be filled by a hot shot recruiter. Why is Mullin so stubborn?
Years one and two were going to be a struggle no matter what but last year and this year could have been so much better if a recruiter had brought in even one or two players who were able to contribute.
 
[quote="Marillac" post=316931][quote="Jack Williams" post=316927]As someone who wasn’t around for the Lou years and doesn’t hold the program up to that esteem, I will say that I still disagree with Marillac’s post.

Ignoring some of the revisionist history about Lavin, cherry picking him “almost winning 20 every year” completely ignores a lot of the completely valid criticisms about him from the years he was a coach...

When it comes to mullin, as a young fan who watched some of the norm years, all of the Lavin years, and have personally been on campus for three of the mullin years...

I don’t want to believe that 15-4 and 3-4 in conference play is the best we are gonna get here.

WASJU, you say fans won’t be satisfied unless we reach Lou type success. Maybe that’s true for some, but it’s also wildly unfair.

I’m sure a lot of people on this board would sign up for making the tournament 6 times a decade, with a few of those trips including some tournament wins. Maybe a sweet 16 appearance. That’s not asking for Lou levels of success.

The fact that marillac says where we are now, a bubble team, is the “best St. John’s is gonna get” is awfully troubling to me. We don’t have don’t have to have carnessecca type success, but I think fans should demand more.

With all that being said, I still think we make the tournament this year and I think Mullin sticks around, for now. If we miss the tournament, I’m not gonna advocate for him coming back, though.

The one thing marillac said that I will agree with, is that firing coaches and starting over, losing connections with recruits, it is frustrating and does set us back. But if a coach shows over and over that he is incapable of winning, we have to make the tough decision and move on.[/quote]

We haven't won a single tournament game in a season that started with a 2 at the beginning of the year, Jack. When was the last time we won two games in the Big East tournament?!

Those are called facts. That is evidence to support my conclusion. Your conclusion is supported by feelings.

Maybe we can end this trend...it's certainly possible...but it won't happen with another firing. It will take sustained success and improvement. Roster building with guys like Williams who don't demand 25 minutes as true freshman. That is how every good program in this conference builds. Creighton redshirted Justin Patton! Xavier redshirts everyone. Nova redshirted Donte. Guys that don't get redshirted accept smaller roles as underclassmen.[/quote]

So even if a coach is mediocre at best, we should stick with him because that’s how you build a program...

Didn’t we try that with Norm Roberts? He was given a lot of time, and sure he brought stability and lack of program scandal, but we didn’t win.

And you’re right we haven’t won anything in a long time, but we shouldn’t just settle for a mediocre coach because of that fact. We should want to be better and try to be better.

I get what you’re saying about it taking time with Mullin to build to program up, and I WOULD be on board with you.

If we were a well coached team. If we had a coach in here that really had the team running well and disciplined, I’d be down to wait for him to build the program with a handful of recruiting classes.

When we hired Mullin, I knew we wouldn’t be well coached, but I thought maybe because of his status as a hall of famer we’d get some really good recruits and win despite coaching deficiencies. It hasn’t happened.

I’m excited for the rest of this season and I want mullin to be the long term answer, but I can’t agree with the idea that we should stick with him just because “that’s how you build a program”. I agree it takes time and players buying in... but Mullin May not deserve all that time if the product on the court doesn’t get much better. I’m rooting for him though
 
And some people operate on the premise that if they are not judging they are going to be judged, stuff that I associate with Stockholm syndrome and Yankee fans.
 
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