Fire Lavin!

[quote="Mike Zaun" post=318506][quote="Marillac" post=318503]Mike Zaun, Mullin already has three more wins than Jay Wright had in his first four years as a head coach. And he had a decade of experience as a college assistant.

Even at Villanova, Jay Wright was 6-10 in the Big East during his his bird season with EIGHT former RSCI top 100 recruits.

Doesn't it make sense that a brand new staff will get better with time? Our RPI has improved a lot each year.[/quote]

Jay Wright: 32-32 in conference in 4 years (50% winning)
Chris Mullin: 15-47 in conference in his 4th year to this point (31% winning)

That's when you take the fluff away of the OOC. You can't totally disregard OOC of course because sometimes you get nice wins, but for the most part it's low and mid major cupcakes. Jay Wright was also 24-8 (11-5) in his 4th year and had them ranked 19th to finish the season. If Mullin did what Jay Wright did in his year 4, I'd be working on his statue.[/quote]

When Wright took over for Lappas, he didn't have to start from scratch like Chris did. Not saying Chris is the answer, but you're not comparing apples to apples. Not even close. .
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=318505][quote="Eric Williamson" post=318499][quote="Mike Zaun" post=318493][quote="Marillac" post=318492]"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -George Santayana"

-Marillac[/quote]

I can't believe you really believe that continuity should come before results. Imagine your kid having a terrible teacher and at a meeting, the administration tells you they plan to keep the teacher because continuity is more important than competence and results. It's your emotion involving Mullin interfering with your thought process IMO.[/quote]

That's a terrible analogy. So you expect the school's administration to make a teaching change because of one disgruntled student and his/her parents? Now if the majority of the students and parents complain, that may be a different story. Even then, you have to look at and compare to past years results. If said teacher has been using the same teaching methods for 10 years and has achieved positive results, and then in year 11, results are down, that does not mean that the teacher is a bad teach and should be replaced. More than likely it was just a bad year, an outlier, and things will get back to 'normal' in future years.

In regards to Mullin, unless he voluntarily decides to step down, he isn't going anywhere. He provides a level of continuity and has improved every year since he's been here. The team has won 8, 14, 16, and currently 15 games in each season since he's been hired. The only argument to made against him is that the turnaround hasn't happened quick enough. Then you need to remember that we weren't exactly a powerhouse when he was brought in. We had made the tournament like 2 times in the past 20 years, so to expect Mullin to come here and make the tournament every year isn't that reasonable.[/quote]

People vote with their feet. How many have left the program since Mullin started here? What is the recruiting situation like with HS kids? That represents many disgruntled kids/parents in the analogy.

You're not taking a nuanced look at the results. You disregard huge factors like the OOC games being 90% cupcakes, progress but much slower than anticipated progress, etc. Since you love my analogies here's another...your boss pays you a few bucks more each year and you complain you don't get raises. Well, technically you are getting more money each year, just not nearly enough. Last year was NIT minimum regardless of LoVett and this season is NCAA's or bust. The only record that truly matters is your conference record. Our OOC schedule was an abomination and we were supposed to be undefeated. When our competition is more level in the same weight class, we have failed miserably. If you don't have real standards, you accept failure. This mindset has infected many fans sadly.[/quote]

Who are you to set these arbitrary minimums? You want to be judge, jury, and executioner.

Jay Wright would have failed by your third year standard at both Hofstra and Nova and he inherited Gary Buchanon, top 75 RSCI Ricky Wright, #59 RSCI Andrew Sullivan as rising juniors, #82 RSCI Derrick Snowden as a soph, and #94 Marcus Austin as a frosh.

A lot of guys did "vote with their feet" and left Wright...like Reggie Bryant who averaged 9.1 points as a soph.
 
Jay Wright was wildly successful by our standards in his 4th year at Nova. If 15-47 is acceptable by any standards then we deserve this suffering quite frankly. Those numbers get brushed under the rug so quickly it's mind-numbing. Some people are very keen on mental gymnastics.
 
The Jay wright analogy is beyond Parody. It is so stupid that the only thing missing is someone bringing up Mike Krzyzewski.

Please will someone bring up Coach K and tell me if you make a coaching change now you risk missing out on the best coach ever?
 
I don't care what anyone says, there is more to replacing a coach when he is basically the face of the program. There just is. But even looking past that for a second I still have not heard anyone throw out a a name of a coach that would actually considering coming here. Who the school would be ok with hiring. Who would be able to recruit here. Who would be able to recruit top HS kids (Which is a pipe dream btw). And finally be a good in game coach, who would hire Mike Rice I guess and keep Matt.
Easy to say fire so and so. If no tourney this year Mullin deserves to go, though still might not happen. Harder to name someone where we won't be having the same conversations four years from now.
 
Last edited:
Guys, Mullin's first 3.5 years have been mediocre, period. There is no way to spin the numbers.

This year of course still has a lot of potential. We just need to hope the next half year is a success. If it is, then people will quickly forget about the first 3 years. It's that simple.

At least hold off until after the Creighton game tonight, because the narrative will dramatically shift in one direction or the other.
 
[quote="Adam" post=318514]Guys, Mullin's first 3.5 years have been mediocre, period. There is no way to spin the numbers.

This year of course still has a lot of potential. We just need to hope the next half year is a success. If it is, then people will quickly forget about the first 3 years. It's that simple.

At least hold off until after the Creighton game tonight, because the narrative will dramatically shift in one direction or the other.[/quote]

This.

There is nobody who thought on 4/1/15 when he was hired that we would be this bad/mediocre at this point. No one. Don't lie. Because if anyone told the board that his record would be what it actually is 3 1/2 years into this NO ONE would have signed on for that. With almost no top 100 HS recruits coming, zero bench because of bad HS recruits and over reliance on transfers and poor staff construction. There is nobody who would have guessed it. And I can tell you almost none of that is bad luck or Lavin;s fault. It is all self-inflicted. This staff gambled on some bad strategies and it needs to change.
 
[quote="fordham96" post=318516][quote="Adam" post=318514]Guys, Mullin's first 3.5 years have been mediocre, period. There is no way to spin the numbers.

This year of course still has a lot of potential. We just need to hope the next half year is a success. If it is, then people will quickly forget about the first 3 years. It's that simple.

At least hold off until after the Creighton game tonight, because the narrative will dramatically shift in one direction or the other.[/quote]

This.

There is nobody who thought on 4/1/15 when he was hired that we would be this bad/mediocre at this point. No one. Don't lie. Because if anyone told the board that his record would be what it actually is 3 1/2 years into this NO ONE would have signed on for that. With almost no top 100 HS recruits coming, zero bench because of bad HS recruits and over reliance on transfers and poor staff construction. There is nobody who would have guessed it. And I can tell you almost none of that is bad luck or Lavin;s fault. It is all self-inflicted. This staff gambled on some bad strategies and it needs to change.[/quote]

Going into this year overall Mullin has not done a good job.
Lovett thing WAS bad luck that didn't help.
Was not left with anything based off of Lavin's uneven recruiting after that first class and because of two of Lavin's erratic recruits after that first class.
Not acknowledging those two issues no matter what you feel about Mullin or his results is revisionist history at its best.
 
[quote="mjmaherjr" post=318491]this should be a fun one to go through when I have 2 free days. 123 pages holy shite[/quote] If you haven't already watch the latest of True Detective and Berlin Station. This thread will make you want to pull your hair out.
 
[quote="we are sju" post=318513]I don't care what anyone says, there is more to replacing a coach when he is basically the face of the program. There just is. But even looking past that for a second I still have not heard anyone throw out a a name of a coach that would actually considering coming here. Who the school would be ok with hiring. Who would be able to recruit here. Who would be able to recruit top HS kids (Which is a pipe dream btw). And finally be a good in game coach, who would hire Mike Rice I guess and keep Matt.
Easy to say fire so and so. If no tourney this year Mullin deserves to go, though still might not happen. Harder to name someone where we won't be having the same conversations four years from now.[/quote]

Bobby Hurley
Nate Oats
Eric Musselman

And wrong, Lavin recruited tons of good HS kids.
 
Last edited:
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=318521][quote="we are sju" post=318513]I don't care what anyone says, there is more to replacing a coach when he is basically the face of the program. There just is. But even looking past that for a second I still have not heard anyone throw out a a name of a coach that would actually considering coming here. Who the school would be ok with hiring. Who would be able to recruit here. Who would be able to recruit top HS kids (Which is a pipe dream btw). And finally be a good in game coach, who would hire Mike Rice I guess and keep Matt.
Easy to say fire so and so. If no tourney this year Mullin deserves to go, though still might not happen. Harder to name someone where we won't be having the same conversations four years from now.[/quote]

Bobby Hurley
Nate Oats
Eric Musselman

And wrong, Lavin recruited tons of good HS kids.[/quote]

Oates possibly but what proof do you have he could recruit. Cause if he can't by year two or three at latest you and others will have a Fire Oates thread going.
Lavin had one really good class and then Rysheed Jordan. Lavin also as has been well documented is not a good game coach either.
 
I don't believe he is in danger of being fired. Even if this thing goes south from here. But I do believe even if they squeak into the NCAA's Cragg needs to sit down with Chris after the season and discuss the future and how committed he is, as I said before. Make it clear even with no change at the top that some things do need to change. The staff and strategy need to be fixed going forward. This is not building, this is spit and glue in many cases.

And even if a change came I agree there is no surefire hire that we are 100% convinced will turn the program around. But that in itself is not an excuse to continue with bad coaching and recruiting. If a change is warranted and it needs to be made regardless of whether the search maybe difficult.
 
[quote="fordham96" post=318525]I don't believe he is in danger of being fired. Even if this thing goes south from here. But I do believe even if they squeak into the NCAA's Cragg needs to sit down with Chris after the season and discuss the future and how committed he is, as I said before. Make it clear even with no change at the top that some things do need to change. The staff and strategy need to be fixed going forward. This is not building, this is spit and glue in many cases.

And even if a change came I agree there is no surefire hire that we are 100% convinced will turn the program around. But that in itself is not an excuse to continue with bad coaching and recruiting. If a change is warranted and it needs to be made regardless of whether the search maybe difficult.[/quote]

New AD so gets benefit of doubt, but there is a reason the last 3 hires were Norm, TV and nostalgia.
Is the School really committed to the program or in the case of last two hires content on going for a Hail Mary?
 
My personal opinion if team fails to dance this year, Chris will not be fired, but expect Cragg to mandate shaking up staff. In that event, how CM would respond is an unknown.

Hopefully team wins tonight & takes some fan tension out of equation. Go Johnnies!
 
[quote="we are sju" post=318500]Just like to point out that though I had no affinity for Lavin, I did not appear to contribute to this thread. Just skipped every 5 pages or so but do not see any of my posts. So Mullin fan or not, it appears that I am basically a patient, non whiny fan! At least since Norm was finally let go.[/quote]

So I scanned the first 20 pages to see who posted and was able to stop which is a good sign that I am able to control my OCD a little.

You show up a couple of times on page 5 or so arguing that Golden State should not fire Mark Jackson. Well maybe Mullin gets fired and Kerr comes here and leads us to multiple National Championships. Completely kidding so no need to rip into me. :)
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=318506][quote="Marillac" post=318503]Mike Zaun, Mullin already has three more wins than Jay Wright had in his first four years as a head coach. And he had a decade of experience as a college assistant.

Even at Villanova, Jay Wright was 6-10 in the Big East during his his bird season with EIGHT former RSCI top 100 recruits.

Doesn't it make sense that a brand new staff will get better with time? Our RPI has improved a lot each year.[/quote]

Jay Wright: 32-32 in conference in 4 years (50% winning)
Chris Mullin: 15-47 in conference in his 4th year to this point (31% winning)

That's when you take the fluff away of the OOC. You can't totally disregard OOC of course because sometimes you get nice wins, but for the most part it's low and mid major cupcakes. Jay Wright was also 24-8 (11-5) in his 4th year and had them ranked 19th to finish the season. If Mullin did what Jay Wright did in his year 4, I'd be working on his statue. There's still time for Mullin of course and will see what happens, but hard to see a path to success with this 3 game stretch.[/quote]

I like how you completely ignored Wright's first four years as a head coach. Doesn't fit your narrative? What a crazy idea...Jay Wright became a better coach with time!

As for Nova, Wright had a great fourth year, but you said NIT was the minimum standard year three and Wright wouldn't have come close to making the NIT under today's standards (after we sold it to the NCAA). They were 6-10 in conference and that was with a loaded roster with depth and size. They were 16-16 and that was with playing TWO non-D1 opponents.

Some posters like Fordham96 deal in absolutes...the coach has to be Wright or Coach K...no other coaches can improve.

How about a guy like Kevin Willard? Average 6-12 record and five losing seasons on conference play his first five years.
 
[quote="fordham96" post=318525]I don't believe he is in danger of being fired. Even if this thing goes south from here. But I do believe even if they squeak into the NCAA's Cragg needs to sit down with Chris after the season and discuss the future and how committed he is, as I said before. Make it clear even with no change at the top that some things do need to change. The staff and strategy need to be fixed going forward. This is not building, this is spit and glue in many cases.

And even if a change came I agree there is no surefire hire that we are 100% convinced will turn the program around. But that in itself is not an excuse to continue with bad coaching and recruiting. If a change is warranted and it needs to be made regardless of whether the search maybe difficult.[/quote]

Great post that sums up my thoughts much more effectively. Am I being too harsh to suggest that Cragg should require him not only to change his strategy (recruit a lot more and put in full-time effort) but to also hire a real assistant? I don't think 1 of the 2 fixes the problem. I think we need Mullin to do both to have a real shot of getting this experiment back on track towards success.
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=318531]My personal opinion if team fails to dance this year, Chris will not be fired, but expect Cragg to mandate shaking up staff. In that event, how CM would respond is an unknown.

Hopefully team wins tonight & takes some fan tension out of equation. Go Johnnies![/quote]

Agreed. But Paultz I think you agree with me even if they make the NCAA's the strategy has to change along with the staff. In other words this problem runs much deeper then just "Hey if SJU makes the NCAA's everything is great but if we just miss it everything sucks..." There are serious issues with this program that need to be addressed.

Remember Lavin made NCAA's last year and did not get retained. Because the issues ran deeper than just a good year or not.
 
[quote="fordham96" post=318535][quote="Paultzman" post=318531]My personal opinion if team fails to dance this year, Chris will not be fired, but expect Cragg to mandate shaking up staff. In that event, how CM would respond is an unknown.

Hopefully team wins tonight & takes some fan tension out of equation. Go Johnnies![/quote]

Agreed. But Paultz I think you agree with me even if they make the NCAA's the strategy has to change along with the staff. In other words this problem runs much deeper then just "Hey if SJU makes the NCAA's everything is great but if we just miss it everything sucks..." There are serious issues with this program that need to be addressed.

Remember Lavin made NCAA's last year and did not get retained. Because the issues ran deeper than just a good year or not.[/quote]

Lavin as fired because we have a delusional fanbase that will attack a coach on everything from attire to choice of beverage in-game. Our fans are the problem...that is the problem that runs deeper than any coach's ability.
 
There is nobody who thought on 4/1/15 when he was hired that we would be this bad/mediocre at this point. No one. Don't lie. Because if anyone told the board that his record would be what it actually is 3 1/2 years into this NO ONE would have signed on for that. With almost no top 100 HS recruits coming, zero bench because of bad HS recruits and over reliance on transfers and poor staff construction. There is nobody who would have guessed it. And I can tell you almost none of that is bad luck or Lavin;s fault. It is all self-inflicted. This staff gambled on some bad strategies and it needs to change.[/quote]

I disagree. I was dead set against hiring a coach without any coaching experience. Legend or not. It is not like the fan base was asked or should have been asked. Once the decision was made to hire Mullin I at least expected him to be able to recruit and to hire an assistant who had coaching experience. None of that happened (unless you count Slice) with rather predictable results. I do not believe results are going to change going forward with this staff. There is every reason to think next year's team is going to be worse than this year's given the players we are going to lose and those replacing them thus far.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top