Fire Lavin!

[gregbodkin]

I've said it before and now here again. We need to learn how to box out and get those rebounds on both ends. Then we will start winning games. Coach needs to emphasize this.

 

[ccnobz]

I've said it before and now here again. We need to learn how to box out and get those rebounds on both ends. Then we will start winning games. Coach needs to emphasize this.

2nd chance points buried us last night. 3 guys jumping out of their shoes to block the same shot leaves a lot of people not boxed out to put back the miss.

 

[cappy105]

Lavin does a fine job recruiting. We need some inside guys. Sanchez with his big body needs to get some rebs. Some Trees should be top of the recruiting list.

Problem is that we need an Xs & Os coach. What is Mike Dunlop up to these days?

Dunlap is not coming back.
Need to move on.

im sorry guys, but this is big time Big East basketball. Division 1, do we need a mastermind coach to teach a kid how to finish under the basket ? Please.....as far as im concerned, these kids put themselves in these holes. Lav has made some poor decisions this year no doubt, but i dont think at this level you need to "teach" a kid how to go strong to the basket and FINISH !!!

 

[beast of the east]

Orlando Antigua?! Maybe he can run his shop, but he hasn't been head coach at the college level. Successful, but working on a pitch for some high-profile coaches to close the deal.

Sorry, but that's akin to hiring a local guy who has had success recruiting to Kansas under Bill Self. It COULD work, but one hopes the Big East isn't a mid-major program that has to take that chance, and can instead get a coach with some years of experience as a head man on a lower or similar level.

You don't have to be a midmajor to hire an elite assistant, you strike while you can. If we wait for Antigua to go to Marshall and win 20 games for a year or two, then he's going to be in demand by the big schools and be above us a la Shaka Smart or Mark Few.

Marquette plucked Tom Crean as an Izzo assistant, Pittsbugh hired Jamie Dixon and UCONN just hired Kevin Ollie.
I respect the opinion that we should pursue someone with HC experience, that makes a lot of sense. But it's not below a "high major" to hire an excellent assistant.

Spot on. Not that Antigua specifically is or isn't the right person for the job, or that we can't get somebody better or with more experience. But if better programs than us can take a shot on guys with no HC experience based on a projection that he is going to be the goods, so can we. Every great head coach had someone take a shot on them in their first job.

Hopefully Lavin is here for a long time based on success and this conversation is moot. But if and when we are looking for a coach we have to be realistic about where we are. There are variables that can swing it either way (namely $$), but generally we're a decent job, not a great one. Sometimes we lack that reality (myself included). There was a conversation a while back about the virtues of SJU v. Cincy (#19, 16-2, 5-0, on their way to a 4th consecutive NCAA bid) when it came to the attractiveness of the programs for recruits that is currently comical in retrospect.

The key is "better programs than us" have chosen someone without HC experience. Often it is someone groomed or familiar with the program. We can't afford on the job training, but again, this is conceptual because at this point Lavin is going nowhere.

 

[SJU1512]

Orlando Antigua?! Maybe he can run his shop, but he hasn't been head coach at the college level. Successful, but working on a pitch for some high-profile coaches to close the deal.

Sorry, but that's akin to hiring a local guy who has had success recruiting to Kansas under Bill Self. It COULD work, but one hopes the Big East isn't a mid-major program that has to take that chance, and can instead get a coach with some years of experience as a head man on a lower or similar level.

You don't have to be a midmajor to hire an elite assistant, you strike while you can. If we wait for Antigua to go to Marshall and win 20 games for a year or two, then he's going to be in demand by the big schools and be above us a la Shaka Smart or Mark Few.

Marquette plucked Tom Crean as an Izzo assistant, Pittsbugh hired Jamie Dixon and UCONN just hired Kevin Ollie.
I respect the opinion that we should pursue someone with HC experience, that makes a lot of sense. But it's not below a "high major" to hire an excellent assistant.

Spot on. Not that Antigua specifically is or isn't the right person for the job, or that we can't get somebody better or with more experience. But if better programs than us can take a shot on guys with no HC experience based on a projection that he is going to be the goods, so can we. Every great head coach had someone take a shot on them in their first job.

Hopefully Lavin is here for a long time based on success and this conversation is moot. But if and when we are looking for a coach we have to be realistic about where we are. There are variables that can swing it either way (namely $$), but generally we're a decent job, not a great one. Sometimes we lack that reality (myself included). There was a conversation a while back about the virtues of SJU v. Cincy (#19, 16-2, 5-0, on their way to a 4th consecutive NCAA bid) when it came to the attractiveness of the programs for recruits that is currently comical in retrospect.

The key is "better programs than us" have chosen someone without HC experience. Often it is someone groomed or familiar with the program. We can't afford on the job training, but again, this is conceptual because at this point Lavin is going nowhere.

Agreed, both with respect to other programs being in a better position to hire someone with no HC experience (especially if they are an internal candidate) and Lavin not going anywhere (which I'm nowhere near sold is a bad thing).

But if and when we are looking, you always have to be digging for a candidate light on experience but heavy on upside. That's when you get a Crean who restored a dormant Marquette program. Especially when you're not always in a position to be choosy, like us. That's all I was trying to say (and I know you're not disputing this, just wanted to clarify).

 

[beast of the east]

Orlando Antigua?! Maybe he can run his shop, but he hasn't been head coach at the college level. Successful, but working on a pitch for some high-profile coaches to close the deal.

Sorry, but that's akin to hiring a local guy who has had success recruiting to Kansas under Bill Self. It COULD work, but one hopes the Big East isn't a mid-major program that has to take that chance, and can instead get a coach with some years of experience as a head man on a lower or similar level.

You don't have to be a midmajor to hire an elite assistant, you strike while you can. If we wait for Antigua to go to Marshall and win 20 games for a year or two, then he's going to be in demand by the big schools and be above us a la Shaka Smart or Mark Few.

Marquette plucked Tom Crean as an Izzo assistant, Pittsbugh hired Jamie Dixon and UCONN just hired Kevin Ollie.
I respect the opinion that we should pursue someone with HC experience, that makes a lot of sense. But it's not below a "high major" to hire an excellent assistant.

Spot on. Not that Antigua specifically is or isn't the right person for the job, or that we can't get somebody better or with more experience. But if better programs than us can take a shot on guys with no HC experience based on a projection that he is going to be the goods, so can we. Every great head coach had someone take a shot on them in their first job.

Hopefully Lavin is here for a long time based on success and this conversation is moot. But if and when we are looking for a coach we have to be realistic about where we are. There are variables that can swing it either way (namely $$), but generally we're a decent job, not a great one. Sometimes we lack that reality (myself included). There was a conversation a while back about the virtues of SJU v. Cincy (#19, 16-2, 5-0, on their way to a 4th consecutive NCAA bid) when it came to the attractiveness of the programs for recruits that is currently comical in retrospect.

The key is "better programs than us" have chosen someone without HC experience. Often it is someone groomed or familiar with the program. We can't afford on the job training, but again, this is conceptual because at this point Lavin is going nowhere.

Agreed, both with respect to other programs being in a better position to hire someone with no HC experience (especially if they are an internal candidate) and Lavin not going anywhere (which I'm nowhere near sold is a bad thing).

But if and when we are looking, you always have to be digging for a candidate light on experience but heavy on upside. That's when you get a Crean who restored a dormant Marquette program. Especially when you're not always in a position to be choosy, like us. That's all I was trying to say (and I know you're not disputing this, just wanted to clarify).

Good post, and to be clear, I'm by no means solidly behind Lavin. He has done a very good job restocking with talent that most programs wanted and would still take, but hasn't had success with one of his own teams yet. I am an advocate of patience, because roster wise we have recruited more talented in 3 years than I can recall any St. John's coach doing - but we can argue that.

If Lavin does walk at some point, and I'm not sure he doesn't walk when his contract is up, I think it would be in the best interest of the program if we could afford a proven entity, at least someone who has won big at the D1 level. That doesn't guarantee success in any way shape or form, but the likelihood is greater than hiring another guy who never was a head coach.

Just something we aren't consciously aware of. The last 4 coaches since Carnesecca have all been fired without a single tenure that was beyond 6-7 years. I think anyone who is thinking of coming here, should the position become open, would raise their price and want a guarantee of X years. The bigger the name, the longer the guarantee.

 

[SJU1512]

Orlando Antigua?! Maybe he can run his shop, but he hasn't been head coach at the college level. Successful, but working on a pitch for some high-profile coaches to close the deal.

Sorry, but that's akin to hiring a local guy who has had success recruiting to Kansas under Bill Self. It COULD work, but one hopes the Big East isn't a mid-major program that has to take that chance, and can instead get a coach with some years of experience as a head man on a lower or similar level.

You don't have to be a midmajor to hire an elite assistant, you strike while you can. If we wait for Antigua to go to Marshall and win 20 games for a year or two, then he's going to be in demand by the big schools and be above us a la Shaka Smart or Mark Few.

Marquette plucked Tom Crean as an Izzo assistant, Pittsbugh hired Jamie Dixon and UCONN just hired Kevin Ollie.
I respect the opinion that we should pursue someone with HC experience, that makes a lot of sense. But it's not below a "high major" to hire an excellent assistant.

Spot on. Not that Antigua specifically is or isn't the right person for the job, or that we can't get somebody better or with more experience. But if better programs than us can take a shot on guys with no HC experience based on a projection that he is going to be the goods, so can we. Every great head coach had someone take a shot on them in their first job.

Hopefully Lavin is here for a long time based on success and this conversation is moot. But if and when we are looking for a coach we have to be realistic about where we are. There are variables that can swing it either way (namely $$), but generally we're a decent job, not a great one. Sometimes we lack that reality (myself included). There was a conversation a while back about the virtues of SJU v. Cincy (#19, 16-2, 5-0, on their way to a 4th consecutive NCAA bid) when it came to the attractiveness of the programs for recruits that is currently comical in retrospect.

The key is "better programs than us" have chosen someone without HC experience. Often it is someone groomed or familiar with the program. We can't afford on the job training, but again, this is conceptual because at this point Lavin is going nowhere.

Agreed, both with respect to other programs being in a better position to hire someone with no HC experience (especially if they are an internal candidate) and Lavin not going anywhere (which I'm nowhere near sold is a bad thing).

But if and when we are looking, you always have to be digging for a candidate light on experience but heavy on upside. That's when you get a Crean who restored a dormant Marquette program. Especially when you're not always in a position to be choosy, like us. That's all I was trying to say (and I know you're not disputing this, just wanted to clarify).

Good post, and to be clear, I'm by no means solidly behind Lavin. He has done a very good job restocking with talent that most programs wanted and would still take, but hasn't had success with one of his own teams yet. I am an advocate of patience, because roster wise we have recruited more talented in 3 years than I can recall any St. John's coach doing - but we can argue that.

If Lavin does walk at some point, and I'm not sure he doesn't walk when his contract is up, I think it would be in the best interest of the program if we could afford a proven entity, at least someone who has won big at the D1 level. That doesn't guarantee success in any way shape or form, but the likelihood is greater than hiring another guy who never was a head coach.

Just something we aren't consciously aware of. The last 4 coaches since Carnesecca have all been fired without a single tenure that was beyond 6-7 years. I think anyone who is thinking of coming here, should the position become open, would raise their price and want a guarantee of X years. The bigger the name, the longer the guarantee.

Great points. For whatever reason, last week I came across the fact that Nova has only had 3 coaches since 1973 (Massimino, Lappas, Wright). I suppose I was aware of that fact, but had never really thought about it expressly. We're on our 5th since 1992, as you mention. To go back 5 coaches for Villanova you are talking 1936.

I'm not saying this is indicative of anything other than it's shocking how much more stability Villanova has had than SJU, a program I'd like to think we aren't that different from (even though we clearly have been for the last decade). I want Lavin to succeed for a variety of reasons, but this is chief among them: the more coaches who cycle through here without generating consistent success, the more doubt there will be that any reasonable candidate can get it done (including the candidates themselves).

 

[jr49]

How bad would things have to get for him to be let go this season?

You can just start hoping the team loses every game from now until the end of the year. Thats been done here before, and looks like it might be going that way again. I'll continue to root for the kids and hope Lav's recruits a more complete team then the rush job he was forced into when he came here. Whatta ya say guys? Time to start rooting against these kids? Maybe Steve can leave the next coach naked.

 

[beast of the east]

Orlando Antigua?! Maybe he can run his shop, but he hasn't been head coach at the college level. Successful, but working on a pitch for some high-profile coaches to close the deal.

Sorry, but that's akin to hiring a local guy who has had success recruiting to Kansas under Bill Self. It COULD work, but one hopes the Big East isn't a mid-major program that has to take that chance, and can instead get a coach with some years of experience as a head man on a lower or similar level.

You don't have to be a midmajor to hire an elite assistant, you strike while you can. If we wait for Antigua to go to Marshall and win 20 games for a year or two, then he's going to be in demand by the big schools and be above us a la Shaka Smart or Mark Few.

Marquette plucked Tom Crean as an Izzo assistant, Pittsbugh hired Jamie Dixon and UCONN just hired Kevin Ollie.
I respect the opinion that we should pursue someone with HC experience, that makes a lot of sense. But it's not below a "high major" to hire an excellent assistant.

Spot on. Not that Antigua specifically is or isn't the right person for the job, or that we can't get somebody better or with more experience. But if better programs than us can take a shot on guys with no HC experience based on a projection that he is going to be the goods, so can we. Every great head coach had someone take a shot on them in their first job.

Hopefully Lavin is here for a long time based on success and this conversation is moot. But if and when we are looking for a coach we have to be realistic about where we are. There are variables that can swing it either way (namely $$), but generally we're a decent job, not a great one. Sometimes we lack that reality (myself included). There was a conversation a while back about the virtues of SJU v. Cincy (#19, 16-2, 5-0, on their way to a 4th consecutive NCAA bid) when it came to the attractiveness of the programs for recruits that is currently comical in retrospect.

The key is "better programs than us" have chosen someone without HC experience. Often it is someone groomed or familiar with the program. We can't afford on the job training, but again, this is conceptual because at this point Lavin is going nowhere.

Agreed, both with respect to other programs being in a better position to hire someone with no HC experience (especially if they are an internal candidate) and Lavin not going anywhere (which I'm nowhere near sold is a bad thing).

But if and when we are looking, you always have to be digging for a candidate light on experience but heavy on upside. That's when you get a Crean who restored a dormant Marquette program. Especially when you're not always in a position to be choosy, like us. That's all I was trying to say (and I know you're not disputing this, just wanted to clarify).

Good post, and to be clear, I'm by no means solidly behind Lavin. He has done a very good job restocking with talent that most programs wanted and would still take, but hasn't had success with one of his own teams yet. I am an advocate of patience, because roster wise we have recruited more talented in 3 years than I can recall any St. John's coach doing - but we can argue that.

If Lavin does walk at some point, and I'm not sure he doesn't walk when his contract is up, I think it would be in the best interest of the program if we could afford a proven entity, at least someone who has won big at the D1 level. That doesn't guarantee success in any way shape or form, but the likelihood is greater than hiring another guy who never was a head coach.

Just something we aren't consciously aware of. The last 4 coaches since Carnesecca have all been fired without a single tenure that was beyond 6-7 years. I think anyone who is thinking of coming here, should the position become open, would raise their price and want a guarantee of X years. The bigger the name, the longer the guarantee.

Great points. For whatever reason, last week I came across the fact that Nova has only had 3 coaches since 1973 (Massimino, Lappas, Wright). I suppose I was aware of that fact, but had never really thought about it expressly. We're on our 5th since 1992, as you mention. To go back 5 coaches for Villanova you are talking 1936.

I'm not saying this is indicative of anything other than it's shocking how much more stability Villanova has had than SJU, a program I'd like to think we aren't that different from (even though we clearly have been for the last decade). I want Lavin to succeed for a variety of reasons, but this is chief among them: the more coaches who cycle through here without generating consistent success, the more doubt there will be that any reasonable candidate can get it done (including the candidates themselves).

Wow, I didn't realize that about Nova. Having strong knowledge of both schools, comparing Villanova's administration and willing to create a strong infrastructure of staff, faculty, buildings, and sports teams to St. John's, is like comparing America's military strength to that of Mexico. They are bright, responsive, and spend money where money should be spent without pinching penny's. And on top of all of that, I can email their President today, and get an answer in one day indicating he read and considered my correspondence.. It's a great, great school.

 

[JohnnyFan]

This is the worst basketball coach I have ever seen. I am now at the point where I declare the following.........If you like Steve Lavin as your coach, you don't know enough about how the game of basketball is played.

You, my friend, have clearly not followed St. John's basketball long enough.

Those of us not yet ready to grab the torches and pitchforks suffered through much worse. (See: Roberts, Norm; Jarvis, Mike; Mahoney, Brian; et al)

I will confess, I might join the mob if Lavin tries the "it's not a losing season; it's a learning season..." line.

You got the wrong guy, my friend. I attended my first Redmen game in 1978 (or 36 years ago) and never looked back. I have lived the coaches you mentioned. For me, all thing considered, this is by far the worst and most infuriating coach. IMO.

 

[cmurph]

This team lacks basic basketball fundamentals. They play as individuals and not as a team although they are individually talented.The last few games were painful to watch. Aren't you tired of hearing, next year will be the year?

 

[SJU1512]

Orlando Antigua?! Maybe he can run his shop, but he hasn't been head coach at the college level. Successful, but working on a pitch for some high-profile coaches to close the deal.

Sorry, but that's akin to hiring a local guy who has had success recruiting to Kansas under Bill Self. It COULD work, but one hopes the Big East isn't a mid-major program that has to take that chance, and can instead get a coach with some years of experience as a head man on a lower or similar level.

You don't have to be a midmajor to hire an elite assistant, you strike while you can. If we wait for Antigua to go to Marshall and win 20 games for a year or two, then he's going to be in demand by the big schools and be above us a la Shaka Smart or Mark Few.

Marquette plucked Tom Crean as an Izzo assistant, Pittsbugh hired Jamie Dixon and UCONN just hired Kevin Ollie.
I respect the opinion that we should pursue someone with HC experience, that makes a lot of sense. But it's not below a "high major" to hire an excellent assistant.

Spot on. Not that Antigua specifically is or isn't the right person for the job, or that we can't get somebody better or with more experience. But if better programs than us can take a shot on guys with no HC experience based on a projection that he is going to be the goods, so can we. Every great head coach had someone take a shot on them in their first job.

Hopefully Lavin is here for a long time based on success and this conversation is moot. But if and when we are looking for a coach we have to be realistic about where we are. There are variables that can swing it either way (namely $$), but generally we're a decent job, not a great one. Sometimes we lack that reality (myself included). There was a conversation a while back about the virtues of SJU v. Cincy (#19, 16-2, 5-0, on their way to a 4th consecutive NCAA bid) when it came to the attractiveness of the programs for recruits that is currently comical in retrospect.

The key is "better programs than us" have chosen someone without HC experience. Often it is someone groomed or familiar with the program. We can't afford on the job training, but again, this is conceptual because at this point Lavin is going nowhere.

Agreed, both with respect to other programs being in a better position to hire someone with no HC experience (especially if they are an internal candidate) and Lavin not going anywhere (which I'm nowhere near sold is a bad thing).

But if and when we are looking, you always have to be digging for a candidate light on experience but heavy on upside. That's when you get a Crean who restored a dormant Marquette program. Especially when you're not always in a position to be choosy, like us. That's all I was trying to say (and I know you're not disputing this, just wanted to clarify).

Good post, and to be clear, I'm by no means solidly behind Lavin. He has done a very good job restocking with talent that most programs wanted and would still take, but hasn't had success with one of his own teams yet. I am an advocate of patience, because roster wise we have recruited more talented in 3 years than I can recall any St. John's coach doing - but we can argue that.

If Lavin does walk at some point, and I'm not sure he doesn't walk when his contract is up, I think it would be in the best interest of the program if we could afford a proven entity, at least someone who has won big at the D1 level. That doesn't guarantee success in any way shape or form, but the likelihood is greater than hiring another guy who never was a head coach.

Just something we aren't consciously aware of. The last 4 coaches since Carnesecca have all been fired without a single tenure that was beyond 6-7 years. I think anyone who is thinking of coming here, should the position become open, would raise their price and want a guarantee of X years. The bigger the name, the longer the guarantee.

Great points. For whatever reason, last week I came across the fact that Nova has only had 3 coaches since 1973 (Massimino, Lappas, Wright). I suppose I was aware of that fact, but had never really thought about it expressly. We're on our 5th since 1992, as you mention. To go back 5 coaches for Villanova you are talking 1936.

I'm not saying this is indicative of anything other than it's shocking how much more stability Villanova has had than SJU, a program I'd like to think we aren't that different from (even though we clearly have been for the last decade). I want Lavin to succeed for a variety of reasons, but this is chief among them: the more coaches who cycle through here without generating consistent success, the more doubt there will be that any reasonable candidate can get it done (including the candidates themselves).

Wow, I didn't realize that about Nova. Having strong knowledge of both schools, comparing Villanova's administration and willing to create a strong infrastructure of staff, faculty, buildings, and sports teams to St. John's, is like comparing America's military strength to that of Mexico. They are bright, responsive, and spend money where money should be spent without pinching penny's. And on top of all of that, I can email their President today, and get an answer in one day indicating he read and considered my correspondence.. It's a great, great school.

It certainly seems like it. Another factor that goes without saying in terms of the basketball program's current success is Wright. The results speak for themselves but I've been around him on a few occassions and he takes charisma to the next level. He also knows what he's doing on the basketball court and when you have that combination it's not difficult to understand why he's been so successful.

If we didn't hire Jarvis in 98, do you think it would have been Wright?

 

[beast of the east]

Orlando Antigua?! Maybe he can run his shop, but he hasn't been head coach at the college level. Successful, but working on a pitch for some high-profile coaches to close the deal.

Sorry, but that's akin to hiring a local guy who has had success recruiting to Kansas under Bill Self. It COULD work, but one hopes the Big East isn't a mid-major program that has to take that chance, and can instead get a coach with some years of experience as a head man on a lower or similar level.

You don't have to be a midmajor to hire an elite assistant, you strike while you can. If we wait for Antigua to go to Marshall and win 20 games for a year or two, then he's going to be in demand by the big schools and be above us a la Shaka Smart or Mark Few.

Marquette plucked Tom Crean as an Izzo assistant, Pittsbugh hired Jamie Dixon and UCONN just hired Kevin Ollie.
I respect the opinion that we should pursue someone with HC experience, that makes a lot of sense. But it's not below a "high major" to hire an excellent assistant.

Spot on. Not that Antigua specifically is or isn't the right person for the job, or that we can't get somebody better or with more experience. But if better programs than us can take a shot on guys with no HC experience based on a projection that he is going to be the goods, so can we. Every great head coach had someone take a shot on them in their first job.

Hopefully Lavin is here for a long time based on success and this conversation is moot. But if and when we are looking for a coach we have to be realistic about where we are. There are variables that can swing it either way (namely $$), but generally we're a decent job, not a great one. Sometimes we lack that reality (myself included). There was a conversation a while back about the virtues of SJU v. Cincy (#19, 16-2, 5-0, on their way to a 4th consecutive NCAA bid) when it came to the attractiveness of the programs for recruits that is currently comical in retrospect.

The key is "better programs than us" have chosen someone without HC experience. Often it is someone groomed or familiar with the program. We can't afford on the job training, but again, this is conceptual because at this point Lavin is going nowhere.

Agreed, both with respect to other programs being in a better position to hire someone with no HC experience (especially if they are an internal candidate) and Lavin not going anywhere (which I'm nowhere near sold is a bad thing).

But if and when we are looking, you always have to be digging for a candidate light on experience but heavy on upside. That's when you get a Crean who restored a dormant Marquette program. Especially when you're not always in a position to be choosy, like us. That's all I was trying to say (and I know you're not disputing this, just wanted to clarify).

Good post, and to be clear, I'm by no means solidly behind Lavin. He has done a very good job restocking with talent that most programs wanted and would still take, but hasn't had success with one of his own teams yet. I am an advocate of patience, because roster wise we have recruited more talented in 3 years than I can recall any St. John's coach doing - but we can argue that.

If Lavin does walk at some point, and I'm not sure he doesn't walk when his contract is up, I think it would be in the best interest of the program if we could afford a proven entity, at least someone who has won big at the D1 level. That doesn't guarantee success in any way shape or form, but the likelihood is greater than hiring another guy who never was a head coach.

Just something we aren't consciously aware of. The last 4 coaches since Carnesecca have all been fired without a single tenure that was beyond 6-7 years. I think anyone who is thinking of coming here, should the position become open, would raise their price and want a guarantee of X years. The bigger the name, the longer the guarantee.

Great points. For whatever reason, last week I came across the fact that Nova has only had 3 coaches since 1973 (Massimino, Lappas, Wright). I suppose I was aware of that fact, but had never really thought about it expressly. We're on our 5th since 1992, as you mention. To go back 5 coaches for Villanova you are talking 1936.

I'm not saying this is indicative of anything other than it's shocking how much more stability Villanova has had than SJU, a program I'd like to think we aren't that different from (even though we clearly have been for the last decade). I want Lavin to succeed for a variety of reasons, but this is chief among them: the more coaches who cycle through here without generating consistent success, the more doubt there will be that any reasonable candidate can get it done (including the candidates themselves).

Wow, I didn't realize that about Nova. Having strong knowledge of both schools, comparing Villanova's administration and willing to create a strong infrastructure of staff, faculty, buildings, and sports teams to St. John's, is like comparing America's military strength to that of Mexico. They are bright, responsive, and spend money where money should be spent without pinching penny's. And on top of all of that, I can email their President today, and get an answer in one day indicating he read and considered my correspondence.. It's a great, great school.

It certainly seems like it. Another factor that goes without saying in terms of the basketball program's current success is Wright. The results speak for themselves but I've been around him on a few occassions and he takes charisma to the next level. He also knows what he's doing on the basketball court and when you have that combination it's not difficult to understand why he's been so successful.

If we didn't hire Jarvis in 98, do you think it would have been Wright?

A lot of people speculate that Wright would have come here. the bonus for SJU at the time was AD Ed Manetta was a childhood friend of Tom Pecora from Queens Village and wanted him here on staff. I can tell you that NYC HS coaches love Jay Wright, who still comes here for a golf tourney that attracts a lot of HS coaches. It's hard not to think of what he would have done for us, in nearly every single way you could list.

 

[TobinGrad]

I see alot of talk here claiming that St. Johns is a mediocre job and that should Lavin leave, we will have a difficult time finding a high quality guy. This is rubbish. At this very moment there are tons of coaches all over the country that are salivating at the thought of having the STJ job, including a few good ones in this metro area.

The only potential problem that would prevent us from landing a guy who could take the team to the tourney and stay there consistently is the stupidity of the AD, not the appeal of the job itself.

 

[jerseyshorejohnny]

Orlando Antigua?! Maybe he can run his shop, but he hasn't been head coach at the college level. Successful, but working on a pitch for some high-profile coaches to close the deal.

Sorry, but that's akin to hiring a local guy who has had success recruiting to Kansas under Bill Self. It COULD work, but one hopes the Big East isn't a mid-major program that has to take that chance, and can instead get a coach with some years of experience as a head man on a lower or similar level.

You don't have to be a midmajor to hire an elite assistant, you strike while you can. If we wait for Antigua to go to Marshall and win 20 games for a year or two, then he's going to be in demand by the big schools and be above us a la Shaka Smart or Mark Few.

Marquette plucked Tom Crean as an Izzo assistant, Pittsbugh hired Jamie Dixon and UCONN just hired Kevin Ollie.
I respect the opinion that we should pursue someone with HC experience, that makes a lot of sense. But it's not below a "high major" to hire an excellent assistant.

Spot on. Not that Antigua specifically is or isn't the right person for the job, or that we can't get somebody better or with more experience. But if better programs than us can take a shot on guys with no HC experience based on a projection that he is going to be the goods, so can we. Every great head coach had someone take a shot on them in their first job.

Hopefully Lavin is here for a long time based on success and this conversation is moot. But if and when we are looking for a coach we have to be realistic about where we are. There are variables that can swing it either way (namely $$), but generally we're a decent job, not a great one. Sometimes we lack that reality (myself included). There was a conversation a while back about the virtues of SJU v. Cincy (#19, 16-2, 5-0, on their way to a 4th consecutive NCAA bid) when it came to the attractiveness of the programs for recruits that is currently comical in retrospect.

The key is "better programs than us" have chosen someone without HC experience. Often it is someone groomed or familiar with the program. We can't afford on the job training, but again, this is conceptual because at this point Lavin is going nowhere.

Agreed, both with respect to other programs being in a better position to hire someone with no HC experience (especially if they are an internal candidate) and Lavin not going anywhere (which I'm nowhere near sold is a bad thing).

But if and when we are looking, you always have to be digging for a candidate light on experience but heavy on upside. That's when you get a Crean who restored a dormant Marquette program. Especially when you're not always in a position to be choosy, like us. That's all I was trying to say (and I know you're not disputing this, just wanted to clarify).

Good post, and to be clear, I'm by no means solidly behind Lavin. He has done a very good job restocking with talent that most programs wanted and would still take, but hasn't had success with one of his own teams yet. I am an advocate of patience, because roster wise we have recruited more talented in 3 years than I can recall any St. John's coach doing - but we can argue that.

If Lavin does walk at some point, and I'm not sure he doesn't walk when his contract is up, I think it would be in the best interest of the program if we could afford a proven entity, at least someone who has won big at the D1 level. That doesn't guarantee success in any way shape or form, but the likelihood is greater than hiring another guy who never was a head coach.

Just something we aren't consciously aware of. The last 4 coaches since Carnesecca have all been fired without a single tenure that was beyond 6-7 years. I think anyone who is thinking of coming here, should the position become open, would raise their price and want a guarantee of X years. The bigger the name, the longer the guarantee.

Great points. For whatever reason, last week I came across the fact that Nova has only had 3 coaches since 1973 (Massimino, Lappas, Wright). I suppose I was aware of that fact, but had never really thought about it expressly. We're on our 5th since 1992, as you mention. To go back 5 coaches for Villanova you are talking 1936.

I'm not saying this is indicative of anything other than it's shocking how much more stability Villanova has had than SJU, a program I'd like to think we aren't that different from (even though we clearly have been for the last decade). I want Lavin to succeed for a variety of reasons, but this is chief among them: the more coaches who cycle through here without generating consistent success, the more doubt there will be that any reasonable candidate can get it done (including the candidates themselves).

Wow, I didn't realize that about Nova. Having strong knowledge of both schools, comparing Villanova's administration and willing to create a strong infrastructure of staff, faculty, buildings, and sports teams to St. John's, is like comparing America's military strength to that of Mexico. They are bright, responsive, and spend money where money should be spent without pinching penny's. And on top of all of that, I can email their President today, and get an answer in one day indicating he read and considered my correspondence.. It's a great, great school.

It certainly seems like it. Another factor that goes without saying in terms of the basketball program's current success is Wright. The results speak for themselves but I've been around him on a few occassions and he takes charisma to the next level. He also knows what he's doing on the basketball court and when you have that combination it's not difficult to understand why he's been so successful.

If we didn't hire Jarvis in 98, do you think it would have been Wright?

A lot of people speculate that Wright would have come here. the bonus for SJU at the time was AD Ed Manetta was a childhood friend of Tom Pecora from Queens Village and wanted him here on staff. I can tell you that NYC HS coaches love Jay Wright, who still comes here for a golf tourney that attracts a lot of HS coaches. It's hard not to think of what he would have done for us, in nearly every single way you could list.

Jay's coaching record:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Wright_(basketball)

 

[beast of the east]

Orlando Antigua?! Maybe he can run his shop, but he hasn't been head coach at the college level. Successful, but working on a pitch for some high-profile coaches to close the deal.

Sorry, but that's akin to hiring a local guy who has had success recruiting to Kansas under Bill Self. It COULD work, but one hopes the Big East isn't a mid-major program that has to take that chance, and can instead get a coach with some years of experience as a head man on a lower or similar level.

You don't have to be a midmajor to hire an elite assistant, you strike while you can. If we wait for Antigua to go to Marshall and win 20 games for a year or two, then he's going to be in demand by the big schools and be above us a la Shaka Smart or Mark Few.

Marquette plucked Tom Crean as an Izzo assistant, Pittsbugh hired Jamie Dixon and UCONN just hired Kevin Ollie.
I respect the opinion that we should pursue someone with HC experience, that makes a lot of sense. But it's not below a "high major" to hire an excellent assistant.

Spot on. Not that Antigua specifically is or isn't the right person for the job, or that we can't get somebody better or with more experience. But if better programs than us can take a shot on guys with no HC experience based on a projection that he is going to be the goods, so can we. Every great head coach had someone take a shot on them in their first job.

Hopefully Lavin is here for a long time based on success and this conversation is moot. But if and when we are looking for a coach we have to be realistic about where we are. There are variables that can swing it either way (namely $$), but generally we're a decent job, not a great one. Sometimes we lack that reality (myself included). There was a conversation a while back about the virtues of SJU v. Cincy (#19, 16-2, 5-0, on their way to a 4th consecutive NCAA bid) when it came to the attractiveness of the programs for recruits that is currently comical in retrospect.

The key is "better programs than us" have chosen someone without HC experience. Often it is someone groomed or familiar with the program. We can't afford on the job training, but again, this is conceptual because at this point Lavin is going nowhere.

Agreed, both with respect to other programs being in a better position to hire someone with no HC experience (especially if they are an internal candidate) and Lavin not going anywhere (which I'm nowhere near sold is a bad thing).

But if and when we are looking, you always have to be digging for a candidate light on experience but heavy on upside. That's when you get a Crean who restored a dormant Marquette program. Especially when you're not always in a position to be choosy, like us. That's all I was trying to say (and I know you're not disputing this, just wanted to clarify).

Good post, and to be clear, I'm by no means solidly behind Lavin. He has done a very good job restocking with talent that most programs wanted and would still take, but hasn't had success with one of his own teams yet. I am an advocate of patience, because roster wise we have recruited more talented in 3 years than I can recall any St. John's coach doing - but we can argue that.

If Lavin does walk at some point, and I'm not sure he doesn't walk when his contract is up, I think it would be in the best interest of the program if we could afford a proven entity, at least someone who has won big at the D1 level. That doesn't guarantee success in any way shape or form, but the likelihood is greater than hiring another guy who never was a head coach.

Just something we aren't consciously aware of. The last 4 coaches since Carnesecca have all been fired without a single tenure that was beyond 6-7 years. I think anyone who is thinking of coming here, should the position become open, would raise their price and want a guarantee of X years. The bigger the name, the longer the guarantee.

Great points. For whatever reason, last week I came across the fact that Nova has only had 3 coaches since 1973 (Massimino, Lappas, Wright). I suppose I was aware of that fact, but had never really thought about it expressly. We're on our 5th since 1992, as you mention. To go back 5 coaches for Villanova you are talking 1936.

I'm not saying this is indicative of anything other than it's shocking how much more stability Villanova has had than SJU, a program I'd like to think we aren't that different from (even though we clearly have been for the last decade). I want Lavin to succeed for a variety of reasons, but this is chief among them: the more coaches who cycle through here without generating consistent success, the more doubt there will be that any reasonable candidate can get it done (including the candidates themselves).

Wow, I didn't realize that about Nova. Having strong knowledge of both schools, comparing Villanova's administration and willing to create a strong infrastructure of staff, faculty, buildings, and sports teams to St. John's, is like comparing America's military strength to that of Mexico. They are bright, responsive, and spend money where money should be spent without pinching penny's. And on top of all of that, I can email their President today, and get an answer in one day indicating he read and considered my correspondence.. It's a great, great school.

It certainly seems like it. Another factor that goes without saying in terms of the basketball program's current success is Wright. The results speak for themselves but I've been around him on a few occassions and he takes charisma to the next level. He also knows what he's doing on the basketball court and when you have that combination it's not difficult to understand why he's been so successful.

If we didn't hire Jarvis in 98, do you think it would have been Wright?

A lot of people speculate that Wright would have come here. the bonus for SJU at the time was AD Ed Manetta was a childhood friend of Tom Pecora from Queens Village and wanted him here on staff. I can tell you that NYC HS coaches love Jay Wright, who still comes here for a golf tourney that attracts a lot of HS coaches. It's hard not to think of what he would have done for us, in nearly every single way you could list.

Jay's coaching record:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Wright_(basketball)

WOW. 389 wins. Can you believe that Wright will be closing in on 500 wins in about 5 seasons?

 

[monte]

I see alot of talk here claiming that St. Johns is a mediocre job and that should Lavin leave, we will have a difficult time finding a high quality guy. This is rubbish. At this very moment there are tons of coaches all over the country that are salivating at the thought of having the STJ job, including a few good ones in this metro area.

The only potential problem that would prevent us from landing a guy who could take the team to the tourney and stay there consistently is the stupidity of the AD, not the appeal of the job itself.

Especially since one of the major knocks on the job was how difficult it would be recruit here, which many of us though was a bunch of BS. If Lavin did nothing else for the program he proved that kids from all over the country will come here.

 

[Andrew]

I see alot of talk here claiming that St. Johns is a mediocre job and that should Lavin leave, we will have a difficult time finding a high quality guy. This is rubbish. At this very moment there are tons of coaches all over the country that are salivating at the thought of having the STJ job, including a few good ones in this metro area.

The only potential problem that would prevent us from landing a guy who could take the team to the tourney and stay there consistently is the stupidity of the AD, not the appeal of the job itself.

Especially since one of the major knocks on the job was how difficult it would be recruit here, which many of us though was a bunch of BS. If Lavin did nothing else for the program he proved that kids from all over the country will come here.

I think that was an amazing accomplishment. However, I think this song that came out shortly after Mullin and Berry left pretty much sums up the state of the program much of the last twenty years. Enjoy.

 

[frank]

Is it true that Lavin said no to N.C.State head coaching job before accepting us?

 

[beast of the east]

I see alot of talk here claiming that St. Johns is a mediocre job and that should Lavin leave, we will have a difficult time finding a high quality guy. This is rubbish. At this very moment there are tons of coaches all over the country that are salivating at the thought of having the STJ job, including a few good ones in this metro area.

The only potential problem that would prevent us from landing a guy who could take the team to the tourney and stay there consistently is the stupidity of the AD, not the appeal of the job itself.

Especially since one of the major knocks on the job was how difficult it would be recruit here, which many of us though was a bunch of BS. If Lavin did nothing else for the program he proved that kids from all over the country will come here.

We really don't have a lot of evidence in terms of recruiting. Mahoney recruited two local kids who were highly touted (Lopez and Hamilton), who turned out to be not as good as the can't miss expectations. Other than that, not so well. Fraschilla recruited well, but not for very long. Jarvis didn't recruit well, nor did Roberts. Lavin so far has done better than all of them combined. It remains to be seen whether Lavin is a phenomenal recruiter, and anything much less in that regard may find it difficult. I was just reading an article last night from Norm's era where the writer wrote about how MSG is not the attraction for kids that older fans think it may be. Honestly, it's not like fans flock to the Garden to see good college basketball. Sure fans/alumni of Syracuse, Duke, UCONN, ND, Nova, etc. will come to see their teams, but other than that, fans of college basketball stay home to watch games on 50" HD TVs. I think if I was a recruit, I'd be more impressed with the Cameron, Carrier Dome, Rupp crowd than I would for 14,000 subdued fans for St. John's Nova, or whatever horrible numbers we turn out for SJU Creighton.