Ex STJ Dean on Trial For Stealing From University

I have been told by St.John's students that Harrington rarely mixes with students and avoids student activities.

While other Catholic colleges and Universities have raised their academic image over the past 25 years St. john's academic image has at best remained stagnet. Harrington has seemingly set low goals for academic recognition and has sometimes failed to meet even his low goals.

Harrington has embarrassed himself and St. John's University.

In fairness, arguably 2 of the biggest factors that act as a drag in our U.S. News ranking are: Retention (now a tad under 80%) and 6 yr. graduation rate.

Since a very healthy percent of students are Pell Grant eligible, a fair number find they don't have the money to continue their St. John's education at some point after they matriculate at the university.

 
 

The exception I take in your hypothesis is that approximately 40% of current SJU students are Pell eligible. This has also contributed mightily to the decline in Catholic students. I take little issue with Pell grants, but I think that better universities who have Pell recipients among their students have better qualified students than we do.

When 40% of your student body come from poorer areas in NYC, the campus is going to be radically changed, and it has. I guarantee you that FH understands that the school can turn a profit on these kids who recieve about $7000 per year in grants.
 

Hello Beast!

I stand by my # that about 40% of Queens campus students, commmuter and resident combined, are Pell eligible.

The biggest difference, IMO, between St. John's in 2012 and St. John's in 1972 are the names of our perceived competition.

40 years ago it was Fordham, Nova and BC.

For the most part, all of these aforementioned institutions were "local / commuter" schools at the time with similar student bodies particularly as it pertained to religion and the socio-economic backgrounds of their students.

There wasn't a dramatic perception difference between those schools (and many others) and St. John's.

Arguably, the type of kid (define that as you will) who went to St. John's 4 decades ago NOW goes to a SUNY like Stony Brook, primarily because of the cost and/or the relative lack of a "sufficient" amount of grants or scholarships.

At some point, your guess is as good as mine, the tuiton bubble will burst, but until it does many of those who are "above average" academically will not take a serious look at us or any private school. It just is not practical for them and their families.

In addition, we are not a big "legacy" school.

That is to say, many of our alumni (who have the financial means to do so) send their kids to BC, Nova , Fordham or other colleges instead of our alma mater for a variety of reasons.

Futhermore, in 1972, it wasn't as fashionable or as common (on a relative basis), for kids to go away to school.

At that timei, when the earth was cooling, kids didn't think they had to wear a "Scarlet A" if they stayed home when attending college.

Today if a kid doesn't go away to school they think Western civilization is going to end and yet many are amazed when it doesn't!!!

Personally, I think we should discourage anyone who cannot financially attend the university from starting in the first place. Yes, I know, I'm tilting at windmills.

That said,what's the point of having someone start when we know from the proverbial data that they aren't good bets to graduate due to overwhelming financial challenges.

It simply doesn't reflect well on the school, IMO.

I think everyone would be much better off if these kids were encouraged to go to a community college and transfer into St. John's for their junior year and graduate.

Yes, you may risk having that person finish up at a SUNY or CUNY (instead of St. John's) but that is the right thing to do.

No reason to saddle someone with a financial burden and no degree. I mean what's the point ?

Even for those who graduate, are we creating a pool of "indentured servants" ?

Rhetorically, should someone from a SEVERELY FINANCIALLY CHALLENGED household be encouraged to saddle themselves with outsized student loan debt for a liberal arts degree at a private university?

This obviously then circles back to the acute need for us as alumni to contribute to annual appeals and capital campaigns.

The most pressing issue that college students face today is figuring out a way to pay for their education and the more grants and scholarships we can offer the better it is for everyone.

If this was to come to fruition our retention and 6 yr. grad rates would improve markedly IMO and so would our U.S. News ranking.  

Finnally, and as a suggestion, for those who would like to see St. John's earn a higher U.S. News ranking perhaps you might like to get involved and personally and pro-actively recruit high school students in your area who you think would be great additions to the St. John's student population.

http://www.stjohns.edu/admission/undergraduate/alumni

    
 
The business model under which St. john's is outdated.

In my opinion the size of the school's undergrad enrollment should be decreased.

The noble mission of educating the masses was pronounced by St.John's in 1870 at a time when the individuals of limited financial means had few alternatives.

Since St. John's was founded less expensive alternatives for college education in the New York metro area have multiplied.

New York State created the SUNY public educational 1948.

The CUNY system was formalized in 1961.

Both the CUNY and the SUNY system provide quality educations to their students and leave the students with far less debt than St. John's leaves its grads.

The average indebtedness of a grad from CUNY Queens College is $17,700.

The average indebtedness of a grad from SUNY Albany is $20,400

The average indebtedness of a grad from St. John's University is a whopping $35,451.

St. John's should investigate cutting its undergrad enrollment from 15,766+/- undergrads to 10,000+/- undergrads and allocate ithe considerable financial aid it presently provides on the fewer students that attended the school with the smaller enrollment accomplishing the noble mission of providing quality education to the poor without burdening it's grads with debt. The smaller enrollment for St. John's would increase the academic profile of its incoming students.






.
 
Also why would FH share a home purchase with Jim Pellow former COO?

That seems strange to me, JSJ let us all know how the President's Dinner goes and if there are any side discusiions about FH's future?
 
I have been told by St.John's students that Harrington rarely mixes with students and avoids student activities.

While other Catholic colleges and Universities have raised their academic image over the past 25 years St. john's academic image has at best remained stagnet. Harrington has seemingly set low goals for academic recognition and has sometimes failed to meet even his low goals.

Harrington has embarrassed himself and St. John's University.

In fairness, arguably 2 of the biggest factors that act as a drag in our U.S. News ranking are: Retention (now a tad under 80%) and 6 yr. graduation rate.

Since a very healthy percent of students are Pell Grant eligible, a fair number find they don't have the money to continue their St. John's education at some point after they matriculate at the university.

 
 

The exception I take in your hypothesis is that approximately 40% of current SJU students are Pell eligible. This has also contributed mightily to the decline in Catholic students. I take little issue with Pell grants, but I think that better universities who have Pell recipients among their students have better qualified students than we do.

When 40% of your student body come from poorer areas in NYC, the campus is going to be radically changed, and it has. I guarantee you that FH understands that the school can turn a profit on these kids who recieve about $7000 per year in grants.
 

Hello Beast!

I stand by my # that about 40% of Queens campus students, commmuter and resident combined, are Pell eligible.

The biggest difference, IMO, between St. John's in 2012 and St. John's in 1972 are the names of our perceived competition.

40 years ago it was Fordham, Nova and BC.

For the most part, all of these aforementioned institutions were "local / commuter" schools at the time with similar student bodies particularly as it pertained to religion and the socio-economic backgrounds of their students.

There wasn't a dramatic perception difference between those schools (and many others) and St. John's.

Arguably, the type of kid (define that as you will) who went to St. John's 4 decades ago NOW goes to a SUNY like Stony Brook, primarily because of the cost and/or the relative lack of a "sufficient" amount of grants or scholarships.

At some point, your guess is as good as mine, the tuiton bubble will burst, but until it does many of those who are "above average" academically will not take a serious look at us or any private school. It just is not practical for them and their families.

In addition, we are not a big "legacy" school.

That is to say, many of our alumni (who have the financial means to do so) send their kids to BC, Nova , Fordham or other colleges instead of our alma mater for a variety of reasons.

Futhermore, in 1972, it wasn't as fashionable or as common (on a relative basis), for kids to go away to school.

At that timei, when the earth was cooling, kids didn't think they had to wear a "Scarlet A" if they stayed home when attending college.

Today if a kid doesn't go away to school they think Western civilization is going to end and yet many are amazed when it doesn't!!!

Personally, I think we should discourage anyone who cannot financially attend the university from starting in the first place. Yes, I know, I'm tilting at windmills.

That said,what's the point of having someone start when we know from the proverbial data that they aren't good bets to graduate due to overwhelming financial challenges.

It simply doesn't reflect well on the school, IMO.

I think everyone would be much better off if these kids were encouraged to go to a community college and transfer into St. John's for their junior year and graduate.

Yes, you may risk having that person finish up at a SUNY or CUNY (instead of St. John's) but that is the right thing to do.

No reason to saddle someone with a financial burden and no degree. I mean what's the point ?

Even for those who graduate, are we creating a pool of "indentured servants" ?

Rhetorically, should someone from a SEVERELY FINANCIALLY CHALLENGED household be encouraged to saddle themselves with outsized student loan debt for a liberal arts degree at a private university?

This obviously then circles back to the acute need for us as alumni to contribute to annual appeals and capital campaigns.

The most pressing issue that college students face today is figuring out a way to pay for their education and the more grants and scholarships we can offer the better it is for everyone.

If this was to come to fruition our retention and 6 yr. grad rates would improve markedly IMO and so would our U.S. News ranking.  

Finnally, and as a suggestion, for those who would like to see St. John's earn a higher U.S. News ranking perhaps you might like to get involved and personally and pro-actively recruit high school students in your area who you think would be great additions to the St. John's student population.

http://www.stjohns.edu/admission/undergraduate/alumni

    
 

I don't think I made myself clear. I am aware that 40% of the student body is Pell eligibile. What I dispute is that finances alone are the reason many don't matriculate. I would rather the school. offer enrollemnt to more qualified Pell applicants that can handle the rigors of a college education, and in doing so, provide a better package of financial aid. The end result is a higher % of Pell students graduating in 4 years because they handle the academic challenges better overall, and they don't fall into the financial holes others do.

Government sponsored low interest student loans are the cause of some very bad decisions by students to attend a private university. They can't see very far down the road, and student loans have the highest default rate when comapred to other types of loans. The Univeristy is almost immoral to admit kids with Pell grants when they are inferior students, saddle them with student loans where the university is the benefactor of the tuition dollars, and then the kid fails out, or maxes out on what he can borrow before he graduates. 

My guess is that children of SJU graduates are not heading to Stony Brook in droves, but probably like all SUNY schools, in increased numbers in a down economy. I think SJU singelhandedly made Molloy grow when LI families opted not to send their kids to Queens, and also contributed mightily to the growth of Hofstra, Adelphi, and St. Joes in Patchogue.
 
The whole cash/slush fund in desk with no accounting of it whatsoever leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. I mean its just common sense to have extra detailed records in that case 
 

At the very least this is poor judgment from Harrington, accepting lavish gifts (a tailored suit), and cash payments for charity where no records are kept.

In this day and age, a large cash charitable donation warrants a receipt for tax purposes. Lack of such constitutes a breach of conduct to say the least. Harrington knows better.

In a public coroporation this would likely cause him his job. The Vincentians though who hire and fire him (not the BOT - who are hand picked and controlled by FH), will likely consider the body of work and how much money FH has brought in and just let it die down till he retires.
 
I have been told by St.John's students that Harrington rarely mixes with students and avoids student activities.

While other Catholic colleges and Universities have raised their academic image over the past 25 years St. john's academic image has at best remained stagnet. Harrington has seemingly set low goals for academic recognition and has sometimes failed to meet even his low goals.

Harrington has embarrassed himself and St. John's University.

In fairness, arguably 2 of the biggest factors that act as a drag in our U.S. News ranking are: Retention (now a tad under 80%) and 6 yr. graduation rate.

Since a very healthy percent of students are Pell Grant eligible, a fair number find they don't have the money to continue their St. John's education at some point after they matriculate at the university.

 
 

The exception I take in your hypothesis is that approximately 40% of current SJU students are Pell eligible. This has also contributed mightily to the decline in Catholic students. I take little issue with Pell grants, but I think that better universities who have Pell recipients among their students have better qualified students than we do.

When 40% of your student body come from poorer areas in NYC, the campus is going to be radically changed, and it has. I guarantee you that FH understands that the school can turn a profit on these kids who recieve about $7000 per year in grants.
 

Hello Beast!

I stand by my # that about 40% of Queens campus students, commmuter and resident combined, are Pell eligible.

The biggest difference, IMO, between St. John's in 2012 and St. John's in 1972 are the names of our perceived competition.

40 years ago it was Fordham, Nova and BC.

For the most part, all of these aforementioned institutions were "local / commuter" schools at the time with similar student bodies particularly as it pertained to religion and the socio-economic backgrounds of their students.

There wasn't a dramatic perception difference between those schools (and many others) and St. John's.

Arguably, the type of kid (define that as you will) who went to St. John's 4 decades ago NOW goes to a SUNY like Stony Brook, primarily because of the cost and/or the relative lack of a "sufficient" amount of grants or scholarships.

At some point, your guess is as good as mine, the tuiton bubble will burst, but until it does many of those who are "above average" academically will not take a serious look at us or any private school. It just is not practical for them and their families.

In addition, we are not a big "legacy" school.

That is to say, many of our alumni (who have the financial means to do so) send their kids to BC, Nova , Fordham or other colleges instead of our alma mater for a variety of reasons.

Futhermore, in 1972, it wasn't as fashionable or as common (on a relative basis), for kids to go away to school.

At that timei, when the earth was cooling, kids didn't think they had to wear a "Scarlet A" if they stayed home when attending college.

Today if a kid doesn't go away to school they think Western civilization is going to end and yet many are amazed when it doesn't!!!

Personally, I think we should discourage anyone who cannot financially attend the university from starting in the first place. Yes, I know, I'm tilting at windmills.

That said,what's the point of having someone start when we know from the proverbial data that they aren't good bets to graduate due to overwhelming financial challenges.

It simply doesn't reflect well on the school, IMO.

I think everyone would be much better off if these kids were encouraged to go to a community college and transfer into St. John's for their junior year and graduate.

Yes, you may risk having that person finish up at a SUNY or CUNY (instead of St. John's) but that is the right thing to do.

No reason to saddle someone with a financial burden and no degree. I mean what's the point ?

Even for those who graduate, are we creating a pool of "indentured servants" ?

Rhetorically, should someone from a SEVERELY FINANCIALLY CHALLENGED household be encouraged to saddle themselves with outsized student loan debt for a liberal arts degree at a private university?

This obviously then circles back to the acute need for us as alumni to contribute to annual appeals and capital campaigns.

The most pressing issue that college students face today is figuring out a way to pay for their education and the more grants and scholarships we can offer the better it is for everyone.

If this was to come to fruition our retention and 6 yr. grad rates would improve markedly IMO and so would our U.S. News ranking.  

Finnally, and as a suggestion, for those who would like to see St. John's earn a higher U.S. News ranking perhaps you might like to get involved and personally and pro-actively recruit high school students in your area who you think would be great additions to the St. John's student population.

http://www.stjohns.edu/admission/undergraduate/alumni

    
 

I don't think I made myself clear. I am aware that 40% of the student body is Pell eligibile. What I dispute is that finances alone are the reason many don't matriculate. I would rather the school. offer enrollemnt to more qualified Pell applicants that can handle the rigors of a college education, and in doing so, provide a better package of financial aid. The end result is a higher % of Pell students graduating in 4 years because they handle the academic challenges better overall, and they don't fall into the financial holes others do.

Government sponsored low interest student loans are the cause of some very bad decisions by students to attend a private university. They can't see very far down the road, and student loans have the highest default rate when comapred to other types of loans. The Univeristy is almost immoral to admit kids with Pell grants when they are inferior students, saddle them with student loans where the university is the benefactor of the tuition dollars, and then the kid fails out, or maxes out on what he can borrow before he graduates. 

My guess is that children of SJU graduates are not heading to Stony Brook in droves, but probably like all SUNY schools, in increased numbers in a down economy. I think SJU singelhandedly made Molloy grow when LI families opted not to send their kids to Queens, and also contributed mightily to the growth of Hofstra, Adelphi, and St. Joes in Patchogue.
 

I totally agree that we need to provide a more attractive package of financial aid (little or no student loans) and we need to pro-actively and aggressively recruit from a wider geographic pool (i.e. N.J. Pa. and Ohio would be a good place to start) of qualified applicants.

As a generalization, NYC , particularly its public high schools, no longer produces as many qualified applicants a it did in the past.

The key is for us to raise enough cash for grants and scholarships so that we become a more attractive option. 

That said, cost is not the only reason why some don't matriculate, but it is a big reason.  
 
JSJ,

Your posts frequently point with a level of pride to the St. John's Pharmacy School.

While the St. John's School of Pharmacy has a long  and proud tradition it appears that the School's prominence may have faded a bit under the long tenure of Fr. Donald J. Harrington, C.M.

US News and World Report ranks the St. John's School of Pharmacy a distant 62 of the 80 ranked programs- behind Albany, Rutgers, Buffalo and others.
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...ols/top-health-schools/pharmacy-rankings/page+3

Most interesting however is that for whatever reason St. John's is one of the few pharmacy schools whose admissions statistics are "not reported" on the American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy.
http://www.aacp.org/resources/student/pharmacyforyou/admissions/Documents/PSAR-1213_narratives.pdf

All other pharmacy schools in New York State reported their admissions stats except St. John's.

A general "google search" of college guides for students planning to apply to pharmacy schools similarly report that for whatever reason St. John's does not report admission stats for its pharmacy school.

If St. John's pharmacy applications compare favorably with neighboring pharmacy schools in attracting top students it is difficult to understand why St. John's failed or refused to report its admissions stats.

Can you provide the St. John's statistics?

Thanks. 
 
JSJ,

Your posts frequently point with a level of pride to the St. John's Pharmacy School.

While the St. John's School of Pharmacy has a long  and proud tradition it appears that the School's prominence may have faded a bit under the long tenure of Fr. Donald J. Harrington, C.M.

US News and World Report ranks the St. John's School of Pharmacy a distant 62 of the 80 ranked programs- behind Albany, Rutgers, Buffalo and others.
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...ols/top-health-schools/pharmacy-rankings/page+3

Most interesting however is that for whatever reason St. John's is one of the few pharmacy schools whose admissions statistics are "not reported" on the American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy.
http://www.aacp.org/resources/student/pharmacyforyou/admissions/Documents/PSAR-1213_narratives.pdf

All other pharmacy schools in New York State reported their admissions stats except St. John's.

If St. John's pharmacy applications compare favorably with neighboring pharmacy schools in attracting top students it is difficult to understand why St. John's failed or refused to report its admissions stats.

Can you provide the St. John's statistics?

Thanks.
 

Otis, These rankings appear to be based on a survery that is purely subjective.

There is a link on the survey page which explains the methodology for ranking:

Methodology: Graduate Health Rankings

All the health rankings are based solely on the results of peer assessment surveys sent to deans, other administrators, and/or faculty at accredited degree programs or schools in each discipline. All schools surveyed in a discipline were sent the same number of surveys. Respondents rated the academic quality of programs on a scale of 1 (marginal) to 5 (outstanding). They were instructed to select "don't know" if they did not have enough knowledge to rate a program. Only fully accredited programs in good standing during the survey period are ranked. Those schools with the highest average scores appear in the rankings.

I toured the college a couple of years ago with Bob Mangione (Dean of College of Pharmacy and Allied Health), and was informed that the incoming freshman class had an average SAT of 1350. I don't know why the school doesn't report scores, but SJU has for long been one of the largest pharmacy college in the US (at the very top). As a result I would guess they are slightly less selective than some other schools who have many fewer seats to fill. That's all speculation though.
 
Beast - -

All rankings are subjective to one extent or another.

Can you point to just one ranking about St. John's University under Rev. Donald J. Harrington, C.M. that reflects academic excellence?

US News ranks St. John's School of Pharmacy 62 of 80.

Can you point to any national ranking that reflects more favorably on the St. John's School of Pharmacy other than 62 of 80?

I hope you can.
 
Beast - -

All rankings are subjective to one extent or another.

Can you point to just one ranking about St. John's University under Rev. Donald J. Harrington, C.M. that reflects academic excellence?

US News ranks St. John's School of Pharmacy 62 of 80.

Can you point to any national ranking that reflects more favorably on the St. John's School of Pharmacy other than 62 of 80?

I hope you can.
 



In terms of the quality of a pharmacy program, traditionally, schools like Philadelphia College of Pharmacy, and mid east schools like Purdue and Ohio State that often are viewed as among the top schools. I think one measure of how well a pharmacy school is doing is the pass rate on part 1 one the pharmacy boards, which is a national exam. I'm not sure if pass rates are public information.

St. John's has always skimped on paying top salaries for faculty, which could have an impact on the peer surveys. The methodlogy doesn't have a construct that really evaluates a school, for example, rate the academic programs 1 to 5. So if I think St. John's is a 1, and the Dean of LIU College of Pharmacy thinks they are a 5, then LIU would score higher. It carries little water.

I took a look at the reporting of admissions data, and it also appears that most of the schools requires 2 years of prerequisite courses to be taken before application to pharmacy schools. St. John's is among the group that admits students to pharmacy school in year 1, without having to apply to pharmacy school after 2 years of undergrduate studies.

I'm not sure what makes a college of pharmacy "great". If you admit only 50 students for example, and they average an SAT of 1550, chances are you will get a high boards pass rate, and a higher likelihood that these graduates will have much success in their careers. Admit 400, with an average SAT of 1350 (SJU scores), and the class may not have as much success. I'm pretty sure that example is not valid, but I'd like to see how many successful businessmen, superior clinicians, or pharmacy leaders (Directors of Pharmacy) are generated from each school. Again a subjective manner of assessment.

Dean Bartilucci once explained to me how he had to balance great teachers with faculty that were great researchers, consistently putting out research papers that helped with accredidation. All schools face that problem.

I fear I've muddied the waters a bit. In general, historically SJU has not been viewed as a great pharmacy school on a national basis, but for the past 40 years (since the demise of Columbia and Fordham College of Pharmacy) St John's graduates have been providing medications safely for millions of New yorkers.
 
 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/st-john-dean-burned-documents-student-testifies-article-1.1189846

Above the latest from the daily news as the trial drags on, no mention of FH's involvement.

As this case drags on and places SJU's name in the mud do you think there will be any mention at the President's Dinner?
 
 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/st-john-dean-burned-documents-student-testifies-article-1.1189846

Above the latest from the daily news as the trial drags on, no mention of FH's involvement.

As this case drags on and places SJU's name in the mud do you think there will be any mention at the President's Dinner?
 

The President's Dinner is a rah-rah rubber chicken event, hornoring big donors and usually someone who does great charitable work without 7 figure contributions. It makes the University about $2 million. It's not the forum to bring up challenging events, and while it may be subject for conversation around a few tables, chances are it will not be an issue brought up very much by anyone even in small discussions
 
Did anyone else get the invite for the event at the Crescent Club in huntington with Fr Harrington on nov 8th ?  
 
Back
Top