Dunlap to Charlotte
- Thread starter austour
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jerseyshorejohnny
Well-known member
Pete Vecsey's column today in the N.Y. Post:
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/bob_and_weave_sWzASevcUE7DlCfCEX97lO
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/bob_and_weave_sWzASevcUE7DlCfCEX97lO
You can discuss what you want to discuss and I can discuss what I want to discuss. I was looking at it from the players side. It's been repeatedly stated by many that these guys are local because they moved to the NY area but they moved there purely to advance their basketball prospects. STJ doesn't become attractive because it's local to them, it's certainly not home. If your position is that Slice relates to and recruits city kids, well the four locals signed this year don't fit that bill. Also, not only aren't they NYers, they weren't part of the NY HS sports scene (trust me, I'm from out Centereach way, it's NYC adjacent like Bakersfield is LA adjacent).
However the point that they're all internationals and NY is so much more multi-cultural than many of their other options was likely a very important factor. Don't need Slice to prove there's a lot of International citizens in NY.
Re the Slice discussion he would be redundant on this staff. You're obviously a big time fan of his if not a friend. I've got nothing against him myself. However if you look at both sides objectively it's easy to see why so many people are disagreeing with you.
Your Points:
* Slice is a great recruiter, you can't have too many great recruiters, talent wins out over coaching
Other folks Points:
* Lavin constructed this staff with guys who fill certain roles. You wouldn't hire an HR superstar to fill the role of a departing VP of Marketing. Doubtful Lavin will replace a tactician with a recruiter
* We already have great recruiters in Lavin and Chiles who signed all these guys from Slice Country without his help and who have already made inroads with the top city kids from the next two classes
* With a young team and only a few rides to give out over the next couple years player development and coaching will be far more important than recruiting
* Slice specialized in finding under recruited kids who ended up excelling in the Howland/Dixon system, Lavin goes after kids at a much higher level
Here's a list of the top 100 players signed by Pitt while Barry was there:
1999: 0
2000: 0
2001: Carl Krauser, #98
2002: 0
2003: Chris Taft, #29
2004: Keith Benjamin, #81
2005: Sam Young, #58, Tyrell Biggs, #71, Levance Fields, #93
2006: Gilbert Brown, #91
One great class, 6 top 100 guys total. 1 Top 50. Only two of those guys were drafted,none in the first round.
Over Lavin's 3 years there's 8 top 100 guys (9 if you want to count the re-recruitment of Jakarr Sampson, 10 if you want to count the transfer of Jamal Branch), 4 top 50 and 2 Juco AA's to top it off. And one of has/will be a first round draft pick already.
Just a little summary. FWIW I don't think anyone on this board would be against hiring Slice if Chiles was leaving. [/quote]
ALLNET :
Thanks for your summary, Austour, which was more than a little both in quality and quantity.
It took time and effort to research and you brought out many interesting points and statistics.
As they say, regarding the two of us, that's what makes a market of buyers and sellers.
I think Lavin has done a tremendous job considering the short time he has been here and considering what he's been through.
It might be that he needs more time , however, his classes so far have been comprised mainly of players in the ranking numbers of between 50 and 100.
I would like us to get to the next level. The 0 to 50 level and that's a quantum leap.
Lavin is talented and a real closer but to get to the next level, I think he needs help.
I think he needs a big time recruiting staff, to help him get there.
He has the intelligence, personality and sincerity to attract big time recruiters,like Slice, especially with the backdrop of New York City.
He needs their help to land the really big fish.
At the top level it's just too big a job for one guy. Tony Chiles is a quality guy but coming from Drexel, I am dubious about his ability to recruit against the big guys. I'm speculating here though and Tony may have grown with the job.
An X's and 0's guy will help but he wont give us that great leap forward..
You can romanticize that function, X's and 0's of the game all you want, it's not going to give you the points on the scoreboard that big time talent will !
ALLNET :
Thanks for your summary, Austour, which was more than a little both in quality and quantity.
It took time and effort to research and you brought out many interesting points and statistics.
As they say, regarding the two of us, that's what makes a market of buyers and sellers.
I think Lavin has done a tremendous job considering the short time he has been here and considering what he's been through.
It might be that he needs more time , however, his classes so far have been comprised mainly of players in the ranking numbers of between 50 and 100.
I would like us to get to the next level. The 0 to 50 level and that's a quantum leap.
Lavin is talented and a real closer but to get to the next level, I think he needs help.
I think he needs a big time recruiting staff, to help him get there.
He has the intelligence, personality and sincerity to attract big time recruiters,like Slice, especially with the backdrop of New York City.
He needs their help to land the really big fish.
At the top level it's just too big a job for one guy. Tony Chiles is a quality guy but coming from Drexel, I am dubious about his ability to recruit against the big guys. I'm speculating here though and Tony may have grown with the job.
An X's and 0's guy will help but he wont give us that great leap forward..
You can romanticize that function, X's and 0's of the game all you want, it's not going to give you the points on the scoreboard that big time talent will ![/quote]
Harrison, Harkless and pointer all top 50. Lavin recruited 2 years and has done as good as any of the top coaches, and he spent one year on the sideline. Chiles is not a Drexel guy. He's a top NYC recruiter like Slice. Everybody entitled to their own opinions, but we are reciting phenomenally right now and it's only going to get better.
ALLNET :
Thanks for your summary, Austour, which was more than a little both in quality and quantity.
It took time and effort to research and you brought out many interesting points and statistics.
As they say, regarding the two of us, that's what makes a market of buyers and sellers.
I think Lavin has done a tremendous job considering the short time he has been here and considering what he's been through.
It might be that he needs more time , however, his classes so far have been comprised mainly of players in the ranking numbers of between 50 and 100.
I would like us to get to the next level. The 0 to 50 level and that's a quantum leap.
Lavin is talented and a real closer but to get to the next level, I think he needs help.
I think he needs a big time recruiting staff, to help him get there.
He has the intelligence, personality and sincerity to attract big time recruiters,like Slice, especially with the backdrop of New York City.
He needs their help to land the really big fish.
At the top level it's just too big a job for one guy. Tony Chiles is a quality guy but coming from Drexel, I am dubious about his ability to recruit against the big guys. I'm speculating here though and Tony may have grown with the job.
An X's and 0's guy will help but he wont give us that great leap forward..
You can romanticize that function, X's and 0's of the game all you want, it's not going to give you the points on the scoreboard that big time talent will ![/quote]
Please for the love of god stop. It's fantastic to have a opinion on something.. But to be so forceful about it is a different story. Truth of the matter is that.. You wouldn't know the difference between Chiles and Slice ability to recruit kids if it slapped you in the face . You have now taken it to the next level of taking a shot at our own assistant Coach. How much better would you like the staff to recruit? You want to get top 20 players ?? Fine then advocate the hiring of the best assistant coach in the country.. His name is winning.. Once the product on the floor improves, we will get our share of top 20 kids. Coach Lavin doesn't need help.. You do
Phenomenally ? I wish we were. We are doing very well , but no five star guys and just some mid four star.. I think you know the schools that recruit the phenoms and that's my point . We don't. Not Lavin's fault but he can't do it alone. By the way, phenomenal is spelled Calipari.
The truth is Tony Chiles did come to us from Drexel and the big question was, at that time, could he carry his load here.
I think he has,at least, that's what many on the board are claiming but his recruiting prowess may be limited when we talk bucking top ten teams. He just might be over his head..
When we talk about our 2011/2012 recruiting class, I believe that you are wrong. Harkless was the gem and he came in ranked in the mid 30's. Most of our guys were consensus mid fifties to mid 90's or higher. I'm talking about the consensus of rating services. Not a service here or one there.
We were ranked third in recruiting but that third was in a different world than Calipari's first. We also had a large class so that might have inflated us.
When the smoke settled 2 of our guys,never made it through the front door and another was around for a cup of coffee. Garrett had to come late but he appears to be blossoming.
.
The truth is Tony Chiles did come to us from Drexel and the big question was, at that time, could he carry his load here.
I think he has,at least, that's what many on the board are claiming but his recruiting prowess may be limited when we talk bucking top ten teams. He just might be over his head..
When we talk about our 2011/2012 recruiting class, I believe that you are wrong. Harkless was the gem and he came in ranked in the mid 30's. Most of our guys were consensus mid fifties to mid 90's or higher. I'm talking about the consensus of rating services. Not a service here or one there.
We were ranked third in recruiting but that third was in a different world than Calipari's first. We also had a large class so that might have inflated us.
When the smoke settled 2 of our guys,never made it through the front door and another was around for a cup of coffee. Garrett had to come late but he appears to be blossoming.
.
Why am I not worried about the level of recruits Lavin can bring in?
Lavin has a record of being a phenomenal recruiter. Better than anything Slice has done. He has done a tremendous job, out of the gate, here at St. John's. Aside from the one man class consisting of Polee before his first season, when he only had one scholly, his next two have been more than anyone could have expected. The obstacles that he has had to deal with need not be restated.
I don't know how much credit each member of the coaching staff deserves, but as a group they have done well. Maybe one of the selling points (and I suspect it is) has been the teaching that they would receive from Dunlap. That would make replacing him as important, if not more so, than bringing in a guy with great hair and fancy suits who would simply duplicate Lavin's skills as a recruiter/closer.
Simply put, I trust that Lavin knows what is most important for selling St. John's to recruits and their parents.
Lavin has a record of being a phenomenal recruiter. Better than anything Slice has done. He has done a tremendous job, out of the gate, here at St. John's. Aside from the one man class consisting of Polee before his first season, when he only had one scholly, his next two have been more than anyone could have expected. The obstacles that he has had to deal with need not be restated.
I don't know how much credit each member of the coaching staff deserves, but as a group they have done well. Maybe one of the selling points (and I suspect it is) has been the teaching that they would receive from Dunlap. That would make replacing him as important, if not more so, than bringing in a guy with great hair and fancy suits who would simply duplicate Lavin's skills as a recruiter/closer.
Simply put, I trust that Lavin knows what is most important for selling St. John's to recruits and their parents.
Methinks your expectations are absurd at this point. We will land our share of 5-star guys, but it isn't because of "lack of help". We are out-recruiting and matching guys like Jim Calhoun, Izzo, Donovan, Crean, and tons of others. We are right in line with where we're supposed to be. You are jaded, thinking we should be landing scores of top 10 kids which nobody but UK lands.
It's also spelled Kentucky. You wanna know why? Because year after year they consistently make runs at sweet 16's and final 4's. Players came for Calipari, and as they won better and better recruits began to choose UK. Right now you need to slow down. I think the johnnies have a legit shot at the tourney this year. Sweet 16? Once we get into the season we'll see. Once we start having bigger years your big fish will come in. Right now you need to slow down and realize that STJohns is no Kentucky. Not yet. Maybe not ever but given the past years we have had I am ecstatic to see where this program is going and what potential it has for the future. 6 years ago a kid from Texas named D'Angelo Harrison or Jamal Branch chuckle at the mention of the Redstorm, and now, they are putting on the red and white in the hopes to get the Johnnies back to dance. We are on the rise, and that doesn't happen over night. Patience is key. I'm a little bit of younger generation than some of you guys here. But I can still tell you how long I've waited to see the redstorm get to a point where they have this kind of squad. This kind of chance. A good season this year means better recruiting classes ahead. You need to stop dwelling and enjoy the good times that are ahead. And trust me there are good times ahead. This season and season to come. Oh yeah, 6 days from now, NBA draft.
We are recruiting very well at the moment. What's up with the "mid" four star talk? So, you're diminishing what the staff is doing in an attempt to strengthen your (weak) argument?
If phenomenal is Calipari, then what makes Slice similiar to Calipari? By the way, did you know Lavin was about to get a visit from a 2011 top 10 player (Texas high schooler, LeBryan Nash), but his mom nixed the official visit due to it being too far? The staff felt very positive in landing Nash until his visit was nixed. I bet if Nash had been a local kid, short drive for his mom, or didn't care about distance, then he would've been a part of our 2011 class. This is the kind of in-roads made only after being on the job for 4 months.
What makes you think he's in "over his head?"
Per the RSCI (which is a collaboration of recruitniks rankings): Here are the consensus rankings.
Pointer - #35
Harkless - #38
Sampson - #40
Harrison - #47
Pelle - #51
Branch - #52 (transfer to our 2012 class)
Garrett - #73
Greene didn't make the cut.
Consensus for the 2012 class:
Obekpa - #69
Sampson - #73*
Wood didn't make the cut.
*Sampson was only ranked by two services, considering he was a 5th year senior, which made his RSCI ranking take a huge hit. The two services ranked him #36 and #45, respectively. IMO, he's considered a top 40 player by those particular rankings. He was also the AA NEPSAC POY (one of the top HS leagues in the country).
Only two recruits didn't make the cut for the consensus top 100, per the RSCI.
Here you go attempting to diminish what the staff done on the recruiting trail again. The class was ranked that highly because we picked up solid players.
Lavin currently has us in a position for a soon-to-be 5-star player from Louisiana, in Jerrell Martin. We're currently amongst a large group of teams, but hopefully we're able to make the cut to 5 in another month. If we're able to make the cut to 5, then I'm gonna pretty darn confident in our prospects of landing him.
We're also on a long list of schools for a 5-star local kid in Jermaine Lawrence. The staff will have one or two scholarships at their disposal, and I'm willing to bet they are going to be very dangerous with a small amount of scholarships to use. The staff can zero in on a few prospects and make it incredibly hard for the opposition. Not to mention, it'll also give them a chance to focus on the '14 and '15 classes.
Besides, how many arguments are you gonna have here? Are you gonna argue about our classes versus Pitt classes when they had "Slice? Are you gonna argue about the "star" system of the classes we're bringing in? Are you gonna argue about us getting quality NYC area players? Are you gonna argue about Chiles not being up to snuff as a recruiting assistant?
It seems you have lots of iron's in the fire in an attempt to prove your lone point.
MJ, if your post doesn't shut him up I don't think anything will. >-)
ALLNET :
Thanks for your summary, Austour, which was more than a little both in quality and quantity.
It took time and effort to research and you brought out many interesting points and statistics.
As they say, regarding the two of us, that's what makes a market of buyers and sellers.
I think Lavin has done a tremendous job considering the short time he has been here and considering what he's been through.
It might be that he needs more time , however, his classes so far have been comprised mainly of players in the ranking numbers of between 50 and 100.
I would like us to get to the next level. The 0 to 50 level and that's a quantum leap.
Lavin is talented and a real closer but to get to the next level, I think he needs help.
I think he needs a big time recruiting staff, to help him get there.
He has the intelligence, personality and sincerity to attract big time recruiters,like Slice, especially with the backdrop of New York City.
He needs their help to land the really big fish.
At the top level it's just too big a job for one guy. Tony Chiles is a quality guy but coming from Drexel, I am dubious about his ability to recruit against the big guys. I'm speculating here though and Tony may have grown with the job.
An X's and 0's guy will help but he wont give us that great leap forward..
You can romanticize that function, X's and 0's of the game all you want, it's not going to give you the points on the scoreboard that big time talent will ![/quote]
I'm sorry to quote this overlong thread again and that I don't get up as early as you guys. I thought my original post had already pointed out that Lavin and Chile's class of 2011 exceeded Slice's cumulative recruiting history over the last 13 years in both top 50's and top 100's. I tried to do it politely rather than slap him in the face with it forgetting that reading comprehension is a lost art in this country.
I remember some of those guys being bigger recruits, but I guess that is a big kudos to Dixon and staff for developing them. Lineup the Slice recruits at Pitt with what we've landed with Lavin and Chiles, and we come out on top IMO. Keep in mind we had one moderately successful season and Pitt was at one off the highest peaks in the history of the program. Also, Dunlap was only involved with a very small % of the recruiting.
An x's and o's guy has to be the choice.
An x's and o's guy has to be the choice.
I'm sorry to quote this overlong thread again and that I don't get up as early as you guys. I thought my original post had already pointed out that Lavin and Chile's class of 2011 exceeded Slice's cumulative recruiting history over the last 13 years in both top 50's and top 100's. I tried to do it politely rather than slap him in the face with it forgetting that reading comprehension is a lost art in this country.[/quote]
You absolutely did but some just refuse to accept reason and logic and there is nothing you can do.
As for Kenyucky, lets be clear and I hope I am dead wrong, but we will never be Kentucky within my lifetime and I am in my early fifties, but we can be UCONN.
Why dont we look at how many MCAAs UCONN got in the last 25 years and you will see very few. Calhoun built his great teams with a bunch of top 50-100 recruits, players who developed well , transfers, etc.
You can win very big without top 20 players and Calhoun is living proof and this staff is exceeding everyone's expectations beyond our wildest dreams on the recruiting trail.
We need a tactician to replace Coac Dunlap and nothing else.
RedStorm212
Member
Bottom line, Slice has done nothing to prove he could help us get 5 star recruits. He's a good recruiter, don't get me wrong. But, he specializes in NYC, and we already got Harkless and Obekpa without him. Maybe he could help a little, but I'd rather get an X's and O's guy. Lavin is already a top notch recruiter.