Criticism

[quote="Logen" post=407945]I certainly do my share of criticizing but at this point in CMA’s tenure I try to stick to game comments, emphasis on try to. But the criticism of his recruiting to date is just beyond my understanding. He inherited a dumpster of a program from Mullin, who inherited a dumpster of a program from Lavin, who inherited as it turns out a built for one year success program from Roberts, maybe only because of the need for Dunlap to take a lead role. Behind that was a coach who made arrogance an art form and one with one foot out the door and the other on his zipper. Behind that was Louie’s successor, who was not up to the job.
So six failed coaches, some scandal mixed in and decades of mediocrity, and that is being kind. Putting the commuter school aspect and facilities aside, what on earth did people expect; that after one season of play and two recruiting cycles blue chip players were going to be knocking down the doors to come here? That with a culture of many players more concerned with impending pro careers than winning in college that SJU at this point in time would be the place to make that happen?
I am not sold on CMA’s style of play or in game coaching to date but I am sold on the man. IMO, he is just what SJU needed, bringing stability, professionalism and a history of success to a program that desperately needed all three. I understand success is subjective and will change from fan to fan but compared to what we have gone through since Louie retired CMA is Red Auerbach.
As for recruiting, we shall see, I have long held that SJU is not a realistic destination for the blue chip, one and done player and I still believe that. So my point is, and I said this with every coach we have hired, let it play out; let’s see where the program is two / three years from now. Certainly, not a new suggestion by any means. And advice frankly, I need to follow myself.[/quote]

Thank you very much Logan. From what I recall you tend to be on the critical side and I tend to be on the positive or give it time to play side .
I appreciate your post though and your acknowledgment of what CMA inherited. For the better part of 25-30 years St. John’s has been mediocre to poor! Even my fellow west point Alum Mike K took the better part of 3 to 4 years to turn Duke around
And many Duke people - seeking instant gratification - wanted to fire him after one or two years.
Mike Anderson has been on the job about 20 months Mike Craig has been on the job about 30 months.
Anything in life worthwhile raising a kid, creating a career, developing a skill takes a lot more than 20 months especially when you’re starting from ground zero.
All the best
Go St. John’s and go Army!
Blessings for the holidays no matter your preference or creed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote="OhioFan" post=407988]Just to clarify all the "facts" being thrown around on this thread:

1. According to 247sports, CMA has not brought in any two star recruits.
2. Class ratings below for the three CMA recruiting classes, showing improvement every year for a perennial 9th or 10th place team.
2019-2020 - 159
2020-2021 - 82
2021-2022 - 59[/quote]
_________

Hey ..... this is Redmen.com where facts don't matter.

.
 
Last edited:
[quote="otis" post=407990][quote="OhioFan" post=407988]Just to clarify all the "facts" being thrown around on this thread:

1. According to 247sports, CMA has not brought in any two star recruits.
2. Class ratings below for the three CMA recruiting classes, showing improvement every year for a perennial 9th or 10th place team.
2019-2020 - 159
2020-2021 - 82
2021-2022 - 59[/quote]
_________

Hey ..... this is Redmen.com where facts don't matter.

.[/quote]

But true even the most optimistic fans blend in reality with their optimism if you notice from those numbers you cite - we are trending in the right direction...
if this were after four recruiting cycles and three full years it would be a lot different imo.
It’s been one full year of basketball and another Covid year and two recruiting cycles and I see that Mike Anderson and his staff are busting their behind to reestablish ties and recruiting channels. Recruiting channels that were busted.
Like the Hatfields and McCoy‘s and the north and the south maybe the two camps on the St. John’s site will never see eye to eye...
with time however and a few more seasons passing we will know how it shook out during Mike Aniston and Mike Craigs
tenure... but we simply cannot determine the outcome in 2020.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote="Enright" post=407983]Beast of the East set forth all the money problems at SJU distinctly which just illuminates the problems with the powers to be running the athletic programs at SJU. Sometimes you have to give a little to get a lot in return from possible donors and SJU won’t do it.
You would think that with the financial situation so desperate they would bend a little or even a lot to a potential donor.[/quote]

I think you are sadly mistaken. We are spending 2.5 million or thereabouts for this coach, and spent $2 million for each of the prior coaches and healthy amounts for the assistants.

If you are referring to one particular donor, that donor wanted to run the athletic department and make demands on the AD as to who we should hire. That one donor torched the school on public airwaves, professed to love SJU, then proceeded to rip to shreds the president and the board of trustees. He also kind of egged on Mike Cragg to leave for the next offer. Doesn't sound like love to me.

Actually its sort of funny, because he criticized the current board, who approved Anderson, hired Cragg, and brought in Shanley. The outgoing chair of the board of trustees Bill Collins and his wife donated $10 million to St Johns on top of the large amounts already donated, which totally dwarfs any amount that the donor noted had ever donated. When you are spending well north of $3 million for our coaching staff and have 800 season ticket subscribers (that account for less than $1 million in revenue) just where is the bending going to come from? Certainly, one donor didn't promise to write a 5 year check to cover the coaching staffs salaries for the contract, or anywhere near it. He wasn't even aware of athletic department priorities, as he floated the idea of himself donating $10 million to renovate CA (which he said would cost $20 mm)

As it is, the guy ran for the hills like a high school kid egging a house and SJU has not heard from him since. With a new chair for the BOT (who incidentally owns a significant chunk of the MLB Marlins and loves SJU basketball), and a new President, the door is open any time he wants to come back and open his checkbook. Remember, the school kept silent about that guy as he torched them. So everything is on him to come back when he is ready to support the program monetarily.
 
[quote="OhioFan" post=407988]Just to clarify all the "facts" being thrown around on this thread:

1. According to 247sports, CMA has not brought in any two star recruits.
2. Class ratings below for the three CMA recruiting classes, showing improvement every year for a perennial 9th or 10th place team.
2019-2020 - 159
2020-2021 - 82
2021-2022 - 59[/quote]

Seriously if this post was meant to be a full throated defense of CMA's recruiting and simultaneously trying to own his critics not sure it will have its desired effect. Jmho
 
[quote="OhioFan" post=407988]Just to clarify all the "facts" being thrown around on this thread:

1. According to 247sports, CMA has not brought in any two star recruits.
2. Class ratings below for the three CMA recruiting classes, showing improvement every year for a perennial 9th or 10th place team.
2019-2020 - 159
2020-2021 - 82
2021-2022 - 59[/quote]

I have met CMA several times now and like him immensely personally and professionally. I do believe he is a tremendous hire, and I'm not sure after a summer highlighted by violent protests SJU could not have made a better choice all things considered to run our program.

That being said, I will say that the 59th ranked class would help to a national ranking of what? 59th?
 
Last edited:
[quote="OhioFan" post=407988]Just to clarify all the "facts" being thrown around on this thread:

1. According to 247sports, CMA has not brought in any two star recruits.
2. Class ratings below for the three CMA recruiting classes, showing improvement every year for a perennial 9th or 10th place team.
2019-2020 - 159
2020-2021 - 82
2021-2022 - 59[/quote]

I believe any player that signs with a high major is automatically made 3* at least that is how it used to be

Edit: just check 3* recruits went all the way down to the #520 recruit...
 
Last edited:
[quote="fordham96" post=407993][quote="OhioFan" post=407988]Just to clarify all the "facts" being thrown around on this thread:

1. According to 247sports, CMA has not brought in any two star recruits.
2. Class ratings below for the three CMA recruiting classes, showing improvement every year for a perennial 9th or 10th place team.
2019-2020 - 159
2020-2021 - 82
2021-2022 - 59[/quote]

Seriously if this post was meant to be a full throated defense of CMA's recruiting and simultaneously trying to own his critics not sure it will have its desired effect. Jmho[/quote]

Not my attempt at all. I just hate actual and implied incorrect statements.
 
[quote="Monte" post=407954][quote="Logen" post=407945]I certainly do my share of criticizing but at this point in CMA’s tenure I try to stick to game comments, emphasis on try to. But the criticism of his recruiting to date is just beyond my understanding. He inherited a dumpster of a program from Mullin, who inherited a dumpster of a program from Lavin, who inherited as it turns out a built for one year success program from Roberts, maybe only because of the need for Dunlap to take a lead role. Behind that was a coach who made arrogance an art form and one with one foot out the door and the other on his zipper. Behind that was Louie’s successor, who was not up to the job.
So six failed coaches, some scandal mixed in and decades of mediocrity, and that is being kind. Putting the commuter school aspect and facilities aside, what on earth did people expect; that after one season of play and two recruiting cycles blue chip players were going to be knocking down the doors to come here? That with a culture of many players more concerned with impending pro careers than winning in college that SJU at this point in time would be the place to make that happen?
I am not sold on CMA’s style of play or in game coaching to date but I am sold on the man. IMO, he is just what SJU needed, bringing stability, professionalism and a history of success to a program that desperately needed all three. I understand success is subjective and will change from fan to fan but compared to what we have gone through since Louie retired CMA is Red Auerbach.
As for recruiting, we shall see, I have long held that SJU is not a realistic destination for the blue chip, one and done player and I still believe that. So my point is, and I said this with every coach we have hired, let it play out; let’s see where the program is two / three years from now. Certainly, not a new suggestion by any means. And advice frankly, I need to follow myself.[/quote]

Fair post Logen. Just a few thing I'd like to point out especially as it relates to critiquing recruiting:
1. Those 6 previous coached did not have trouble recruiting here, and did so right out of the gate. Even the 3 coaches who had never coached before.
2. Those 6 coaches also did not have trouble bringing in mostly quality kids. Many of whom stayed for 4 years.
3. While it's still early in CMA's tenure, we are now looking at his 4th recruiting cycle. I think that's a fair amount of time to question the level of kids being targeted.
4. Other then any coach's first recruiting class, criticism of recruiting in open game and an ongoing thing.
5. No one is saying that we have to recruit at the level of the Duke's and Kentucky's of the world, but we are going to have to recruit at the level of the PC's and SH's of the world, and that just hasn't happen yet.

This isn't an either/or situation. We can be supportive of of CMA , and still question whether or not our recruiting is good enough, use of TO's, substitution patterns, etc. Like Otis, I remain "cautiously optimistic". That's the best you're gonna get from me until I see the results on the court over a period of time.[/quote]
Fair points and, IMO every BE team should be able to pick up a 4 star or two. . .however, IMO, going back 6 coaches is not a fair comparison as it relates to quickly bringing in highly rated recruits.

Fraschilla and Jarvis were both here when SJU was still highly relevant. Roberts did not kill it on the recruiting trail. The fact that his kids ultimately won is mostly a function of having a senior laden team - which in many, if not, most cases will yield good results.

Agree, however, that Lavin and Mullin both were able to bring in highly rated recruits early in their tenure. Credit to both of them but have to believe that their high profile names helped.

Unfortunately, for CMA, I think it is going to require more time, Twenty years of mostly lackluster results has made us irrelevant. The fact that Seton Hall has passed us is testament to this - as they were rarely, if ever, mentioned in the same breath as SJU, They would still be floundering had Willard not made those moves with the Whitehead recruiting class.

CMA doesn’t have the high profile name necessary to overcome a period that has now deemed us to be a mediocre program. As suggested by many on this board, style may play into it as well. So, it’ll have to be based on results and making noise (not just reaching) in the tournament,

At this point, I am trusting (maybe its hope) that he is the man to get it done,
 
[quote="Section3" post=407997][quote="Monte" post=407954][quote="Logen" post=407945]I certainly do my share of criticizing but at this point in CMA’s tenure I try to stick to game comments, emphasis on try to. But the criticism of his recruiting to date is just beyond my understanding. He inherited a dumpster of a program from Mullin, who inherited a dumpster of a program from Lavin, who inherited as it turns out a built for one year success program from Roberts, maybe only because of the need for Dunlap to take a lead role. Behind that was a coach who made arrogance an art form and one with one foot out the door and the other on his zipper. Behind that was Louie’s successor, who was not up to the job.
So six failed coaches, some scandal mixed in and decades of mediocrity, and that is being kind. Putting the commuter school aspect and facilities aside, what on earth did people expect; that after one season of play and two recruiting cycles blue chip players were going to be knocking down the doors to come here? That with a culture of many players more concerned with impending pro careers than winning in college that SJU at this point in time would be the place to make that happen?
I am not sold on CMA’s style of play or in game coaching to date but I am sold on the man. IMO, he is just what SJU needed, bringing stability, professionalism and a history of success to a program that desperately needed all three. I understand success is subjective and will change from fan to fan but compared to what we have gone through since Louie retired CMA is Red Auerbach.
As for recruiting, we shall see, I have long held that SJU is not a realistic destination for the blue chip, one and done player and I still believe that. So my point is, and I said this with every coach we have hired, let it play out; let’s see where the program is two / three years from now. Certainly, not a new suggestion by any means. And advice frankly, I need to follow myself.[/quote]

Fair post Logen. Just a few thing I'd like to point out especially as it relates to critiquing recruiting:
1. Those 6 previous coached did not have trouble recruiting here, and did so right out of the gate. Even the 3 coaches who had never coached before.
2. Those 6 coaches also did not have trouble bringing in mostly quality kids. Many of whom stayed for 4 years.
3. While it's still early in CMA's tenure, we are now looking at his 4th recruiting cycle. I think that's a fair amount of time to question the level of kids being targeted.
4. Other then any coach's first recruiting class, criticism of recruiting in open game and an ongoing thing.
5. No one is saying that we have to recruit at the level of the Duke's and Kentucky's of the world, but we are going to have to recruit at the level of the PC's and SH's of the world, and that just hasn't happen yet.

This isn't an either/or situation. We can be supportive of of CMA , and still question whether or not our recruiting is good enough, use of TO's, substitution patterns, etc. Like Otis, I remain "cautiously optimistic". That's the best you're gonna get from me until I see the results on the court over a period of time.[/quote]
Fair points and, IMO every BE team should be able to pick up a 4 star or two. . .however, IMO, going back 6 coaches is not a fair comparison as it relates to quickly bringing in highly rated recruits.

Fraschilla and Jarvis were both here when SJU was still highly relevant. Roberts did not kill it on the recruiting trail. The fact that his kids ultimately won is mostly a function of having a senior laden team - which in many, if not, most cases will yield good results.

Agree, however, that Lavin and Mullin both were able to bring in highly rated recruits early in their tenure. Credit to both of them but have to believe that their high profile names helped.

Unfortunately, for CMA, I think it is going to require more time, Twenty years of mostly lackluster results has made us irrelevant. The fact that Seton Hall has passed us is testament to this - as they were rarely, if ever, mentioned in the same breath as SJU, They would still be floundering had Willard not made those moves with the Whitehead recruiting class.

CMA doesn’t have the high profile name necessary to overcome a period that has now deemed us to be a mediocre program. As suggested by many on this board, style may play into it as well. So, it’ll have to be based on results and making noise (not just reaching) in the tournament,

At this point, I am trusting (maybe its hope) that he is the man to get it done,[/quote]

All fair points Section 3. Every one of the last 6 coaches came in with a different track record, and under different circumstances. The 1st 3 came in riding the Lou C wave. As such, recruiting wasn't as difficult. Norm took over at the worst point in our school's history, had his hands completely tied with who he could recruit, and had little recruiting budget by all accounts. Yet I would argue that his recruiting was comparable at the same juncture to CMA's....and Norm never coached before he got here. CMA is a great representative of the school, a wonderful mentor to the kids and a good coach, but there's no reason IMO that he should be recruiting at a Norm level with his track record. Hopefully it improves.
 
All these Posts offer many valid opinions on the Program . I think many are not critical of Coach A and the way he has managed the Program with Class and Professionalism since he arrived . Clearly , he has done that . A few thoughts , Arkansas as a State University has a lot to offer kids looking for a BB program to play for . And , if you are a 4-5 star player in that State , you would naturally give a look to playing there . Coach A did get his share of those kids . Here are St Johns’s we are competing in much deeper waters for the 4-5 star players , either locally or around the Country . It’s been tough too, when the Program has fallen a lot over the last 20 years and Tournament games have been few and far between . In the BE we have basically been a 3 rd tier team with the rare breakout to a first or second tier finish . As for Coach A ‘s style , I think he realizes we don’t have the depth of talent to fully implement his 40 minutes of hell at a level that he himself is satisfied with , just yet . 6’10 inch , 200 pound players are going to get pushed around in the BE , no matter the skills they may bring . 6 ‘ foot guards are handicapped too , unless you present talent like Howard, Ponds , etc who were high 4-5 star players . I do think CMA has to bring in longer and quicker forwards , who can beat people off the dribble consistently and can stick the jumper at a decent percentage . We sure do need a terrific 3 point shooter . Even if he’s just that and nothing more . Even a 5 th year transfer who can shoot would be worth it . I don’t know if next year ‘s class who we are recruiting deliver that level of play ? Hope so . Right now , we are still looking at a relatively young season that could go either way , better than last year or not as good . Let’s hope it’s the former .
 
[quote="Logen" post=407945]I certainly do my share of criticizing but at this point in CMA’s tenure I try to stick to game comments, emphasis on try to. But the criticism of his recruiting to date is just beyond my understanding. He inherited a dumpster of a program from Mullin, who inherited a dumpster of a program from Lavin, who inherited as it turns out a built for one year success program from Roberts, maybe only because of the need for Dunlap to take a lead role. Behind that was a coach who made arrogance an art form and one with one foot out the door and the other on his zipper. Behind that was Louie’s successor, who was not up to the job.
So six failed coaches, some scandal mixed in and decades of mediocrity, and that is being kind. Putting the commuter school aspect and facilities aside, what on earth did people expect; that after one season of play and two recruiting cycles blue chip players were going to be knocking down the doors to come here? That with a culture of many players more concerned with impending pro careers than winning in college that SJU at this point in time would be the place to make that happen?
I am not sold on CMA’s style of play or in game coaching to date but I am sold on the man. IMO, he is just what SJU needed, bringing stability, professionalism and a history of success to a program that desperately needed all three. I understand success is subjective and will change from fan to fan but compared to what we have gone through since Louie retired CMA is Red Auerbach.
As for recruiting, we shall see, I have long held that SJU is not a realistic destination for the blue chip, one and done player and I still believe that. So my point is, and I said this with every coach we have hired, let it play out; let’s see where the program is two / three years from now. Certainly, not a new suggestion by any means. And advice frankly, I need to follow myself.[/quote]



Very fair, insightful and accurate post. Thank you.
 
Years of frustration and mediocrity breeds impatience, griping and impulsivity. We should get paid to hang on with our Johnnies. :) Thankfully it is a diversion.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote="Paultzman" post=408003]Years of frustration and mediocrity breeds impatience, griping and impulsivity. We should get paid to hang on with our Johnnies. :) Thankfully it is a diversion.[/quote]

If I didn't have this site and you guys to vent to and commiserate with , I'm sure I'd have been institutionalized by now. Probably multiple times, like during every coaching search.
 
[quote="Monte" post=408004][quote="Paultzman" post=408003]Years of frustration and mediocrity breeds impatience, griping and impulsivity. We should get paid to hang on with our Johnnies. :) Thankfully it is a diversion.[/quote]

If I didn't have this site and you guys to vent to and commiserate with , I'm sure I'd have been institutionalized by now. Probably multiple times, like during every coaching search.[/quote]

Maybe Panther and I could unretire to assist your treatment team.
 
[quote="fuchsia" post=408005][quote="Monte" post=408004][quote="Paultzman" post=408003]Years of frustration and mediocrity breeds impatience, griping and impulsivity. We should get paid to hang on with our Johnnies. :) Thankfully it is a diversion.[/quote]

If I didn't have this site and you guys to vent to and commiserate with , I'm sure I'd have been institutionalized by now. Probably multiple times, like during every coaching search.[/quote]

Maybe Panther and I could unretire to assist your treatment team.[/quote]

Thanks for offer. Panther has tried. I think he'll tell you, I'm probably beyond help ;)
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=407992][quote="Enright" post=407983]Beast of the East set forth all the money problems at SJU distinctly which just illuminates the problems with the powers to be running the athletic programs at SJU. Sometimes you have to give a little to get a lot in return from possible donors and SJU won’t do it.
You would think that with the financial situation so desperate they would bend a little or even a lot to a potential donor.[/quote]

I think you are sadly mistaken. We are spending 2.5 million or thereabouts for this coach, and spent $2 million for each of the prior coaches and healthy amounts for the assistants.

If you are referring to one particular donor, that donor wanted to run the athletic department and make demands on the AD as to who we should hire. That one donor torched the school on public airwaves, professed to love SJU, then proceeded to rip to shreds the president and the board of trustees. He also kind of egged on Mike Cragg to leave for the next offer. Doesn't sound like love to me.

Actually its sort of funny, because he criticized the current board, who approved Anderson, hired Cragg, and brought in Shanley. The outgoing chair of the board of trustees Bill Collins and his wife donated $10 million to St Johns on top of the large amounts already donated, which totally dwarfs any amount that the donor noted had ever donated. When you are spending well north of $3 million for our coaching staff and have 800 season ticket subscribers (that account for less than $1 million in revenue) just where is the bending going to come from? Certainly, one donor didn't promise to write a 5 year check to cover the coaching staffs salaries for the contract, or anywhere near it. He wasn't even aware of athletic department priorities, as he floated the idea of himself donating $10 million to renovate CA (which he said would cost $20 mm)

As it is, the guy ran for the hills like a high school kid egging a house and SJU has not heard from him since. With a new chair for the BOT (who incidentally owns a significant chunk of the MLB Marlins and loves SJU basketball), and a new President, the door is open any time he wants to come back and open his checkbook. Remember, the school kept silent about that guy as he torched them. So everything is on him to come back when he is ready to support the program monetarily.[/quote]

The Collins family and The Brennan Family have probably donated somewhere in the neighborhood of $20 million (each) to The University.

Both families are big basketball fans
 
Last edited:
[quote="Monte" post=407954][quote="Logen" post=407945]I certainly do my share of criticizing but at this point in CMA’s tenure I try to stick to game comments, emphasis on try to. But the criticism of his recruiting to date is just beyond my understanding. He inherited a dumpster of a program from Mullin, who inherited a dumpster of a program from Lavin, who inherited as it turns out a built for one year success program from Roberts, maybe only because of the need for Dunlap to take a lead role. Behind that was a coach who made arrogance an art form and one with one foot out the door and the other on his zipper. Behind that was Louie’s successor, who was not up to the job.
So six failed coaches, some scandal mixed in and decades of mediocrity, and that is being kind. Putting the commuter school aspect and facilities aside, what on earth did people expect; that after one season of play and two recruiting cycles blue chip players were going to be knocking down the doors to come here? That with a culture of many players more concerned with impending pro careers than winning in college that SJU at this point in time would be the place to make that happen?
I am not sold on CMA’s style of play or in game coaching to date but I am sold on the man. IMO, he is just what SJU needed, bringing stability, professionalism and a history of success to a program that desperately needed all three. I understand success is subjective and will change from fan to fan but compared to what we have gone through since Louie retired CMA is Red Auerbach.
As for recruiting, we shall see, I have long held that SJU is not a realistic destination for the blue chip, one and done player and I still believe that. So my point is, and I said this with every coach we have hired, let it play out; let’s see where the program is two / three years from now. Certainly, not a new suggestion by any means. And advice frankly, I need to follow myself.[/quote]

Fair post Logen. Just a few thing I'd like to point out especially as it relates to critiquing recruiting:
1. Those 6 previous coached did not have trouble recruiting here, and did so right out of the gate. Even the 3 coaches who had never coached before.
2. Those 6 coaches also did not have trouble bringing in mostly quality kids. Many of whom stayed for 4 years.
3. While it's still early in CMA's tenure, we are now looking at his 4th recruiting cycle. I think that's a fair amount of time to question the level of kids being targeted.
4. Other then any coach's first recruiting class, criticism of recruiting in open game and an ongoing thing.
5. No one is saying that we have to recruit at the level of the Duke's and Kentucky's of the world, but we are going to have to recruit at the level of the PC's and SH's of the world, and that just hasn't happen yet.

This isn't an either/or situation. We can be supportive of of CMA , and still question whether or not our recruiting is good enough, use of TO's, substitution patterns, etc. Like Otis, I remain "cautiously optimistic". That's the best you're gonna get from me until I see the results on the court over a period of time.[/quote]

I would disagree with your recruiting premise for the previous coaches. If you go by rating stars, fine, but I don’t, I look at the product on the court. And success on the court has been fleeting and unsustained since Louie retired, so no, I don’t consider any of the 6 good recruiters. And I think considering this a 4th recruiting cycle for CMA to be disingenuous and self serving at best based on the time of his hire. Having said that, feel free to criticize, but I would like you offer reasons why the level of recruit you want to judge CMA on so early in his tenure should realistically consider SJU. I can’t find many and offered that in my post.
 
His 3rd recruiting class is pretty much done, barring some transfer(s) out and late pick ups. So we are now "looking at" his 4th recruiting class. I realize that his 1st class was incomplete, just like most 1st year coach's' classes are.
....
I still can’t follow judgements based on anticipated futures and partial events....must be modern math.
 
[quote="Logen" post=408013][quote="Monte" post=407954][quote="Logen" post=407945]I certainly do my share of criticizing but at this point in CMA’s tenure I try to stick to game comments, emphasis on try to. But the criticism of his recruiting to date is just beyond my understanding. He inherited a dumpster of a program from Mullin, who inherited a dumpster of a program from Lavin, who inherited as it turns out a built for one year success program from Roberts, maybe only because of the need for Dunlap to take a lead role. Behind that was a coach who made arrogance an art form and one with one foot out the door and the other on his zipper. Behind that was Louie’s successor, who was not up to the job.
So six failed coaches, some scandal mixed in and decades of mediocrity, and that is being kind. Putting the commuter school aspect and facilities aside, what on earth did people expect; that after one season of play and two recruiting cycles blue chip players were going to be knocking down the doors to come here? That with a culture of many players more concerned with impending pro careers than winning in college that SJU at this point in time would be the place to make that happen?
I am not sold on CMA’s style of play or in game coaching to date but I am sold on the man. IMO, he is just what SJU needed, bringing stability, professionalism and a history of success to a program that desperately needed all three. I understand success is subjective and will change from fan to fan but compared to what we have gone through since Louie retired CMA is Red Auerbach.
As for recruiting, we shall see, I have long held that SJU is not a realistic destination for the blue chip, one and done player and I still believe that. So my point is, and I said this with every coach we have hired, let it play out; let’s see where the program is two / three years from now. Certainly, not a new suggestion by any means. And advice frankly, I need to follow myself.[/quote]

Fair post Logen. Just a few thing I'd like to point out especially as it relates to critiquing recruiting:
1. Those 6 previous coached did not have trouble recruiting here, and did so right out of the gate. Even the 3 coaches who had never coached before.
2. Those 6 coaches also did not have trouble bringing in mostly quality kids. Many of whom stayed for 4 years.
3. While it's still early in CMA's tenure, we are now looking at his 4th recruiting cycle. I think that's a fair amount of time to question the level of kids being targeted.
4. Other then any coach's first recruiting class, criticism of recruiting in open game and an ongoing thing.
5. No one is saying that we have to recruit at the level of the Duke's and Kentucky's of the world, but we are going to have to recruit at the level of the PC's and SH's of the world, and that just hasn't happen yet.

This isn't an either/or situation. We can be supportive of of CMA , and still question whether or not our recruiting is good enough, use of TO's, substitution patterns, etc. Like Otis, I remain "cautiously optimistic". That's the best you're gonna get from me until I see the results on the court over a period of time.[/quote]

I would disagree with your recruiting premise for the previous coaches. If you go by rating stars, fine, but I don’t, I look at the product on the court. And success on the court has been fleeting and unsustained since Louie retired, so no, I don’t consider any of the 6 good recruiters. And I think considering this a 4th recruiting cycle for CMA to be disingenuous and self serving at best based on the time of his hire. Having said that, feel free to criticize, but I would like you offer reasons why the level of recruit you want to judge CMA on so early in his tenure should realistically consider SJU. I can’t find many and offered that in my post.[/quote]

You lost me at "I don't consider any of the 6 good recruiters".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top