For further elaboration, Marcus Hatten's usage % is 30% and 34% his two years here.
@Creighton, Sat., Jan. 13, 1p, FOX
- Thread starter otis
- Start date
I'd argue Jenkins' leash may also be because he plays with the most consistent motor (by far) on this team, and he has the least capable backup on the team.
RedmanMike
Well-known member
Haven't posted in this thread, and I'm glad I waited. Saturday was a terrific basketball game between two well-coached teams.
Jenkins continues to be very polarizing to many on this board. I'm not sure why - he's a good player who isn't a pure PG but is forced to be one because of the roster we have. He didn't shoot well on Saturday - the shots weren't awful, but he missed a few he normally makes. (I agree with whoever said that he takes too many floaters).
But regardless of what you think about Jenkins, what is the alternative to him having the ball in his hands all the time? Neither Dingle or Alleyne has a good enough handle to be a primary ballhandler, and Wilcher isn't ready for anything more than spot minutes. (His back to back poor plays in the second half turned the momentum against us for good on Saturday.)
Comparing Jenkins to Hatten and Ponds is a little silly. They are all combo guards who were forced to play the point almost exclusively, but Jenkins isn't in their class and no one expected him to be. But in fairness he's better than any PG we've had since Ponds himself. Look who we've had since then - Rutherford, Dunn, Posh, etc. You'd take Jenkins every time over all those guys.
Jenkins continues to be very polarizing to many on this board. I'm not sure why - he's a good player who isn't a pure PG but is forced to be one because of the roster we have. He didn't shoot well on Saturday - the shots weren't awful, but he missed a few he normally makes. (I agree with whoever said that he takes too many floaters).
But regardless of what you think about Jenkins, what is the alternative to him having the ball in his hands all the time? Neither Dingle or Alleyne has a good enough handle to be a primary ballhandler, and Wilcher isn't ready for anything more than spot minutes. (His back to back poor plays in the second half turned the momentum against us for good on Saturday.)
Comparing Jenkins to Hatten and Ponds is a little silly. They are all combo guards who were forced to play the point almost exclusively, but Jenkins isn't in their class and no one expected him to be. But in fairness he's better than any PG we've had since Ponds himself. Look who we've had since then - Rutherford, Dunn, Posh, etc. You'd take Jenkins every time over all those guys.
Jenkins is shooting 40.3 percent. You only want to mention the 29 percent 3 point shooting . That’s like telling 1/2 the story .So it’s okay to question Pitino’s recruiting?
My contention is not that Jenkins taking less shots “frees up other players to take more.” My contention, as dozens of posters have also opined, is that nobody on our goddamn team looks confident enough to make a meaningful basketball move — including the f*cking reigning second leading scorer in the nation!!!!! That’s not normal.
We have a player that handles the ball over 90% of the time he’s on the court. That same player took 17 shots! That same player made almost every meaningful pass as well.
At the same time everyone else around him is short-arming passes and shots and visibly uncomfortable and you don’t think there is any possible connection? That’s crazy. That’s f*cking crazy.
We haven’t had a player dominate the offense like this since Marcus Hatten. It was annoying as hell at times with Hatten, but at least everyone watching the game knew without a doubt that he was the best player on our team.
Pitino knows the fix at this point has to come from the players. Either Luis steps up and takes a portion of Jenkins role or we get to look forward to a 29% 3 pt shooter taking step-back threes late in games.
BTW, do you think there is a prayer in hell that Dingle’s father would allow his son to play with Jenkins if they each had a year of eligibility left?. Half the team would not come back solely because of Jenkins.
Let’s look at the all around game and I’m nkt trying to dump on Dingle but , rather state the case for Jenkins who has Pitino’s blessings but , not yours .
Dingle is delivering less than half the points he scored at Penn, 10 per game . His other pockets, Assists , Rebounds , Defense are empty . You could say he’s a 1 dimensional player and , he’s not doing much there either .
This fan base wants desperately for him to show more . It’s getting late in the Season and we need him to score more than 9 per game against BE opponents .
Throwing in Dingle’s father into the discussion is weak .
You condemn. Jenkins for just being a MAAC guard . Yet ,say nothing about the step up in class that the BE is over the Ivies . Which may be Dingle’s ceiling in our league , 9 points a game .
I hope not as he has to bring more than he’s done so far . He’s not great at getting his own shot off the dribble . And , Alleyne is a better defender and shooter .
Agree. Also we were in 16 out of 17 games this year. Fell apart in the 2nd half vs Michigan.
Those ladies never stop — pretty amazing program
If I’m reading this correctly, this is one of the silliest statistics I’ve ever seen.
Here at some fatal flaws: it rewards players who miss shots on teams that rebound the ball well. We are #3 in the nation this year in offensive rebounding and we were #274 and #302 with Ponds. How is that fair?!
Ponds’ starting centers the two year you cited were Owens who had a 50.8% FG % and MARVIN Clark, who shot 39% from the field. Jenkins is passing to Joel Soriano, who is shooting 64% from the field. That is 64% of possessions that Jenkins “actions don’t end a possession, either by making a shot, missing a shot that isn’t rebounded by the offense or a turnover.” Seems like quite a luxury.
So in theory if Jenkins played a 4th grade CYO team with a prime Shaq and only took 3/4 court heaves and Shaq rebounded all of his misses and dunked all of his passes, Jenkins could shoot 0% and still have a 0% for this statistic?
So this is largely an offensive rebounding statistic? Hatten’s two teams were ranked #8 and #3 in the country in offensive rebounds per game.
Jenkins’ team is now #4 in the country (#3 prior to Creighton). Ponds was #274 and #302.
Certainly we can all agree Hatten dominated the ball?
MugCostanza
Well-known member
Good thing you bring that up because there's a stat for that too! It counts just shot% while on the floor, regardless of make or miss and whether or not the offense or defense rebounded the misses.If I’m reading this correctly, this is one of the silliest statistics I’ve ever seen.
Here at some fatal flaws: it rewards players who miss shots on teams that rebound the ball well. We are #3 in the nation this year in offensive rebounding and we were #274 and #302 with Ponds. How is that fair?!
Ponds’ starting centers the two year you cited were Owens who had a 50.8% FG % and MARVIN Clark, who shot 39% from the field. Jenkins is passing to Joel Soriano, who is shooting 64% from the field. That is 64% of possessions that Jenkins “actions don’t end a possession, either by making a shot, missing a shot that isn’t rebounded by the offense or a turnover.” Seems like quite a luxury.
So in theory if Jenkins played a 4th grade CYO team with a prime Shaq and only took 3/4 court heaves and Shaq rebounded all of his misses and dunked all of his passes, Jenkins could shoot 0% and still have a 0% for this statistic?
Jenkins - 26
2023 David Jones - 31.5
2022 Julian - 30.3
2021 Julian - 29.4
2020 LJ - 28.7
2020 Heron - Heron 27.2
2020 Earlington - 27.2 (lol)
2019 Ponds - 26.9
2018 Ponds - 32.6
2017 Ahmed - 27
Listen, I have no issue with your opinion that Jenkins takes too many bad shots or is too much a part of the offense. I even actually agree with it in a general sense. But you consistently say things like "Jenkins is the most ball dominant player we've had since Hatten" that is objectively nowhere near the truth. But even your objectively false statements aren't as ridiculous as when you confidently imply nonsense like "Clayton didn't come here because he didn't want to play with Jenkins" or "Dingle's dad wouldn't have had Dingle come here if he knew how much of a ball hog Jenkins would be" when it's far more likely those things are completely wrong than they are even a little bit correct.
Usage rate estimates the percentage of a team's possessions a player uses while on the floor. Usage rate equals 100 times the sum of field goals attempted, a third of assists, turnovers and 0.44 times free throws attempted, all divided by the possessions.
By that metric, DJ is 24%.
34% and 30% are both very high usage %s, so the advanced stats back up that, yes, Marcus Hatten absolutely dominated the ball. I'm half joking when I say I was surprised it wasn't 50% lol
Larry Wright
Well-known member
Yeah Champagnie had the ball as much as Jenkins
I am sure there is a new fangled stat that shows the Earth is flat or that Brandon Nimmo is more valuable than Pete Alonso, oh wait That stat somehow exists.
He shoots 13 times a game at barely a 40% clip.
Shoots too much no one else has a pg doing that
Just admit your first stat was insane
Nobody has ever heard of it until today. If you were Sergio Wilcher and Jenkins was a soph, you aren’t sending your son to a new school next year?
I’d never let a guard who played for me played with Jenkins. A big man? Sure. Never another guard.
Any advanced statistic that shows Ponds being worse than Jenkins is useless. There is not a single poster on this forum that would agree Jenkins is on par with Ponds as a player. and we can’t agree on anything as a group.
MugCostanza
Well-known member
The first stat is literally the stat that orders players on the KenPom team page so it's one of the most well known and referred to advanced stats that exist lol.Just admit your first stat was insane
If you were Sergio Wilcher and Jenkins was a soph, you aren’t sending your son to a new school next year?
I’d never let a guard who played for me played with Jenkins. A big man? Sure. Never another guard.
Any advanced statistic that shows Ponds being worse than Jenkins is useless. There is not a single poster on this forum that would agree Jenkins is on par with Ponds as a player. and we can’t agree on anything as a group.
It doesn't matter what you would do with your kid in their situations. Implying that you know what parents are thinking about their kids situations or what players like Clayton are thinking even though he's publicly stated the exact opposite is certifiable mental institution type stuff.
Literally nowhere did I or anybody else mention that those metrics I posted state that Jenkins is a better player than Ponds or anybody else listed there. Those metrics have zero correlation to who is a better player, they simply just prove how incredibly ridiculous your statement was regarding Jenkins and Hatten. And either you know that and are purposely deflecting, or have the reading comprehension skills of a coconut. I'm guessing the former, but wouldn't wager my house on it.
You are comparing Jenkins who is a senior and has played for 3 different colleges to Wilcher who is a freshman and 6 months out of high school.Just admit your first stat was insane
If you were Sergio Wilcher and Jenkins was a soph, you aren’t sending your son to a new school next year?
I’d never let a guard who played for me played with Jenkins. A big man? Sure. Never another guard.
Any advanced statistic that shows Ponds being worse than Jenkins is useless. There is not a single poster on this forum that would agree Jenkins is on par with Ponds as a player. and we can’t agree on anything as a group.
When Ponds came here he was the best guard as a Freshman because our existing squad was awful. Rick is bringing Witcher and Dunlap
up to speed slowly. If you watch the drills before the games Wilcher is the most talented with the ball I expect Wilcher to be playing
alot more as the season continues
Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? How many advanced stats are you going to cite to me with paragraph-long definitions that don’t directly refute my point?
I never said the problem is solely with with Jenkins’ shots. You can’t handle the ball 90% of the time you are on the floor, make a majority of the meaningful passes, AND take 17 shots in a game you made 5 unless you are a uniquely talented player. It alienates the other guards and renders them less likely to hit shots at the end of the game.
I’m not sure how much more clear I can make myself. He’s too involved in everything and the only advanced stat that that even comes remotely close is Usage and it’s just an formulaic estimate that falls waayyy short, especially on a team with Soriano and one that gets so many second chance points off the glass.
Furthermore, I have stated repeatedly that there are shots of Jenkins that I like. I want him taking balanced pull-ups from the elbow. I want him taking it to the basket and looking for contact. If he makes a good % then he’s earned more.
I do NOT want him averaging 6 threes a game when he’s a career 27% shooter from 3 outside of his one year in the MAAC (and 30% if you want to count that year). That’s pure lunacy. I don’t want him shooting floaters or leaning away from contact. It’s a low % shot for him and he’s not strong enough to make them consistently.
If he HAS to be a guy that scores then take him off the ball. He can’t do it all. He’s not that guy.
MugCostanza: I’m glad you said that because when he eats Fruit Loops for breakfast and sh*ts twice weighing more than 6 oz, the following day he actually shoots 41.8% when defended by guys listed over 6’2 with GPAs over 3.1.
Here are some stats with Jenkins:
We’ve played 3 ranked teams. In those 3 games, Jenkins is shooting 14-43 (32.5%) from the field and 3-17 (17.6%) from 3. He has ZERO combined FTs. Small sample size? Sure.
I’m curious where he ranks on FT attempts per played nationally?
L J S A
Well-known member
Another coach and/or another dad, and he might not be here as a sophomore even with Jenkins gone. Nature of the game unfortunately and glad we are on the right side of the game now.
Cerveza
That’s not at all what I am doing. I might be Wilcher’s biggest fan actually.
The difference in physical talent from Jenkins and Soriano to Wilcher and Zuby is substantial. Wilcher and Zuby are so much quicker…they look like Pitino’s Louisville guys.
I do disagree with your take on Ponds though. Ponds was ready to go from day 1 from a skills perspective. Wilcher wasn’t but he has a higher athletic ceiling and more size.
Ponds would be great on this team even as a freshman. But some kids need more time.
MugCostanza
Well-known member
This is the last thing I'll say on it since it is tiresome.
Your opinion that he shoots too much and his shooting percentages are completely irrelevant to the point I'm making. Like I said, I generally agree that Jenkins is too big a part of the offense and in a perfect world he'd be taking fewer shots per game. So you can go on and on about the shots he takes that you like, don't like, his percentages on those shots and whatever. I'm not arguing any of that. That's your opinion and it's fine.
I just take exception to the fact you confidently make statements like "he's the most ball dominant player we've had since Marcus Hatten" as if it's true when it is verifiably false. I cited two of the most common metrics used to measure a player's usage in the offense, both of which prove how ridiculous of a statement that is. Your inability to accept that is nothing more than just a blind refusal to admit what you said was not based in reality whatsoever.