@Creighton, Sat., Jan. 13, 1p, FOX

dk423 said:
Usage rate estimates the percentage of a team's possessions a player uses while on the floor. Usage rate equals 100 times the sum of field goals attempted, a third of assists, turnovers and 0.44 times free throws attempted, all divided by the possessions.

By that metric, DJ is 24%.

34% and 30% are both very high usage %s, so the advanced stats back up that, yes, Marcus Hatten absolutely dominated the ball. I'm half joking when I say I was surprised it wasn't 50% lol
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The Hatten bit shows why advanced statistics are a joke in college basketball.

Every single person on this site would agree that Hatten dominated the ball more than any player we’ve had here this century — we could disagree whether that was for good or bad maybe. Not even the biggest contrarian would disagree that he didn’t though. Let’s be real.

Here is the problem: when we say that we are talking about the first shot in the half court offense. We aren’t talking about transition or offensive rebounds.

We just saw Wilcher throw two lazy passes against Creighton that led to easy layups. Well, those would lower Hatten’s usage rate if someone like Sharif Fordham did that. Same thing if Anthony Glover and Eric King grab 3 straight offensive rebounds and put one back. That lowers Hatten’s usage.

That St. John’s team was #5 in steals and they pushed everything because they did not want to get stuck in fr half court😂
 
paultzman said:
We argue and fight more after gut busting losses 😇
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Except for my bud Marillac. I called it 2 weeks ago. He’s gone full blown Robert Downey Jr “ Tropic Thunder “

. “I don’t get out of my character until the DVD is done.”
 

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MugCostanza said:
This is the last thing I'll say on it since it is tiresome.

Your opinion that he shoots too much and his shooting percentages are completely irrelevant to the point I'm making. Like I said, I generally agree that Jenkins is too big a part of the offense and in a perfect world he'd be taking fewer shots per game. So you can go on and on about the shots he takes that you like, don't like, his percentages on those shots and whatever. I'm not arguing any of that. That's your opinion and it's fine.

I just take exception to the fact you confidently make statements like "he's the most ball dominant player we've had since Marcus Hatten" as if it's true when it is verifiably false. I cited two of the most common metrics used to measure a player's usage in the offense, both of which prove how ridiculous of a statement that is. Your inability to accept that is nothing more than just a blind refusal to admit what you said was not based in reality whatsoever.
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You pay KenPom $21.99 a year and you can’t come up with one statistic to refute a claim that a college senior dribbles, passes, and shoots too much made by an anonymous poster that is posting with one hand while throwing a Super Mario Koopa-shaped football to his son with the other. That does sound tiresome.
 
Marillac2 said:
You pay KenPom $21.99 a year and you can’t come up with one statistic to refute a claim that a college senior dribbles, passes, and shoots too much made by an anonymous poster that is posting with one hand while throwing a Super Mario Koopa-shaped football to his son with the other. That does sound tiresome.
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I already did two, but ok
 
Marillac2 said:
Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? How many advanced stats are you going to cite to me with paragraph-long definitions that don’t directly refute my point?

I never said the problem is solely with with Jenkins’ shots. You can’t handle the ball 90% of the time you are on the floor, make a majority of the meaningful passes, AND take 17 shots in a game you made 5 unless you are a uniquely talented player. It alienates the other guards and renders them less likely to hit shots at the end of the game.

I’m not sure how much more clear I can make myself. He’s too involved in everything and the only advanced stat that that even comes remotely close is Usage and it’s just an formulaic estimate that falls waayyy short, especially on a team with Soriano and one that gets so many second chance points off the glass.

Furthermore, I have stated repeatedly that there are shots of Jenkins that I like. I want him taking balanced pull-ups from the elbow. I want him taking it to the basket and looking for contact. If he makes a good % then he’s earned more.

I do NOT want him averaging 6 threes a game when he’s a career 27% shooter from 3 outside of his one year in the MAAC (and 30% if you want to count that year). That’s pure lunacy. I don’t want him shooting floaters or leaning away from contact. It’s a low % shot for him and he’s not strong enough to make them consistently.

If he HAS to be a guy that scores then take him off the ball. He can’t do it all. He’s not that guy.

MugCostanza: I’m glad you said that because when he eats Fruit Loops for breakfast and sh*ts twice weighing more than 6 oz, the following day he actually shoots 41.8% when defended by guys listed over 6’2 with GPAs over 3.1.

Here are some stats with Jenkins:

We’ve played 3 ranked teams. In those 3 games, Jenkins is shooting 14-43 (32.5%) from the field and 3-17 (17.6%) from 3. He has ZERO combined FTs. Small sample size? Sure.

I’m curious where he ranks on FT attempts per played nationally?
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To answer your final question, I don't have that exact value but I do have FTRate which is calculated as: 100*FTA/FGA. This measures a player's ability to get the line using the number of free throws shot per 100 field goal attempts. Jenkins = 13.9, which is last of 41 qualified players in the Big East. Surrounding him is Joplin at 14.0 and Kam Jones at 14.1 Other main PGs - Ashworth 18.1, Kolek - 27.1, Posh - 33.8, Kadary - 35.8, Claude - 36.8, and Newton - 55.2. Highest St. John's player is Soriano (5th overall) at 52.4.

Big Jenkins supporter, but thought I would answer your question.
 
SLYFOXX1968 said:
Jenkins is shooting 40.3 percent. You only want to mention the 29 percent 3 point shooting . That’s like telling 1/2 the story .

Let’s look at the all around game and I’m nkt trying to dump on Dingle but , rather state the case for Jenkins who has Pitino’s blessings but , not yours .

Dingle is delivering less than half the points he scored at Penn, 10 per game . His other pockets, Assists , Rebounds , Defense are empty . You could say he’s a 1 dimensional player and , he’s not doing much there either .

This fan base wants desperately for him to show more . It’s getting late in the Season and we need him to score more than 9 per game against BE opponents .

Throwing in Dingle’s father into the discussion is weak .
You condemn. Jenkins for just being a MAAC guard . Yet ,say nothing about the step up in class that the BE is over the Ivies . Which may be Dingle’s ceiling in our league , 9 points a game .

I hope not as he has to bring more than he’s done so far . He’s not great at getting his own shot off the dribble . And , Alleyne is a better defender and shooter .
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You realize 40.3% isn't good, right? Worst amongst all rotation players except Luis.
 
I have read all of the posts covering the last 2 pages, and have no idea what anyone is talking about. Or perhaps I don't want to know. I grew up in a time when the stats that mattered were things like batting average, home runs, and ERA. We used our eyes to determine a player's worth by watching him play. I have no idea how WAR works or some of the other new age stats. Based on today's metrics, Willie Horton was better than Joe Dimaggio. OK, I made that up, but I'm sure many get the point. We all see the games. Of course the stats matter, but I only have the patience to take it so far.
 
rlogazino said:
To answer your final question, I don't have that exact value but I do have FTRate which is calculated as: 100*FTA/FGA. This measures a player's ability to get the line using the number of free throws shot per 100 field goal attempts. Jenkins = 13.9, which is last of 41 qualified players in the Big East. Surrounding him is Joplin at 14.0 and Kam Jones at 14.1 Other main PGs - Ashworth 18.1, Kolek - 27.1, Posh - 33.8, Kadary - 35.8, Claude - 36.8, and Newton - 55.2. Highest St. John's player is Soriano (5th overall) at 52.4.

Big Jenkins supporter, but thought I would answer your question.
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And this is an issue as FTA are a big part of the Usage stat. Which is why these advanced stats are a joke outside baseball.
 
Knight said:
I thought Soriano was little bit reluctant to shoot another 3-pointer after he missed his first attempt. He needs to shoot again to draw the big out high.
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You are correct. He was left wide open on two occasions and chose to pass. While he was more effective in the second half, and got his points, he did not play an overall good game again kornblower.
 
MugCostanza said:
I already did two, but ok
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This is the definition of your first stat: “Simply assigns credit or blame to a player when his actions end a possession, either by making a shot, missing a shot that isn’t rebounded by the offense, or committing a turnover.”

How does that prove or disprove my contention that Jenkins dribbles, passes, AND shoots too much? It doesn’t even address dribbling at all, it indirectly touches passing (turnovers?) and — as far as shooting goes — it is heavily influenced by how well a player’s teammates rebound his misses. Jenkins plays for the #4 ranked offensive rebounding team in the country while Ponds played for #274 and #302. By definition, less of Jenkins’ misses result in possessions ending. Do you get that?

You didn’t name or properly define your second stat so I can’t comment.
 
Marillac2 said:
This is the definition of your first stat: “Simply assigns credit or blame to a player when his actions end a possession, either by making a shot, missing a shot that isn’t rebounded by the offense, or committing a turnover.”

How does that prove or disprove my contention that Jenkins dribbles, passes, AND shoots too much? It doesn’t even address dribbling at all, it indirectly touches passing (turnovers?) and — as far as shooting goes — it is heavily influenced by how well a player’s teammates rebound his misses. Jenkins plays for the #4 ranked offensive rebounding team in the country while Ponds played for #274 and #302. By definition, less of Jenkins’ misses result in possessions ending. Do you get that?

You didn’t name or properly define your second stat so I can’t comment.
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I never tried to disprove your contention that Jenkins dribbles, passes (not sure how you claiming a player passes too much doesn't directly contradict your argument that a player is too ball dominant lol but whatever) AND shoots too much because "too much" is a subjective term with no quantifiable definition, duh. How could anybody possibly prove somebody does something "too much" or "too little" in basketball when everybody's definition of those terms is different. Again, I find it difficult to believe you are doing anything more than trolling here because your reading comprehension and common sense can't possibly be this bad.

I did name and properly define the second stat. It's just the percentage of the team's shots a player has taken while on the court. If a player has a shot% of 25 that means he takes 1 out of every 4 of his team's shots while the player is on the floor. So it doesn't matter whether the shot is made, missed or who rebounded it. If there were a huge gap in differences between poss% and shot% between Jenkins and the players from previous years I mentioned then the offensive rebounding thing would be the thing that tipped the scaled. But, it didn't.

What I did prove by clear standards is that your contention that "Jenkins is the most ball dominant player we've had since Marcus Hatten" was demonstrably and verifiably false. That's the only one of your claims that I ever set out to dismiss, and I did pretty clearly and easily.
 
logen said:
This may be Auriemma/Dailey’s best coaching job. Decimated by injuries to 4 key players, they start only one player over 6’, start 4 guards and play 4 freshman out of the 7 in rotation. But they play hellacious D and make you play very fast. They have the BE DPOY the last 2 years in Nika Muhl, who played Drake straight up, no switching and was able to take her completely out of the game.
Muhl last year played Caitlin Clark similarly in a UConn win over Iowa, and while she didn’t take her out of the game, she did harass her into 9-24 shooting, of which 2 of her baskets were breakaway layups off of Iowa steals.
Big UConn WBB fan, having been friends with Chris Dailey when she was an assistant at Rutgers. She has been the UConn Associate Head Coach since 1988 and is one of only 2 assistants to be named to the basketball HOF. Auriemma has shared many times that the tipping point in his interview for the Uconn job in 1985 (he was an assistant at U of Va.) was that if he got the job Dailey had agreed to come with him, she was that highly respected in WBB circles.
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For those interested, coaching perspective from Geno Auriemma, much of it could be applied to fandom, particularly the comments regarding player development
 
MugCostanza said:
I never tried to disprove your contention that Jenkins dribbles, passes (not sure how you claiming a player passes too much doesn't directly contradict your argument that a player is too ball dominant lol but whatever) AND shoots too much because "too much" is a subjective term with no quantifiable definition, duh. How could anybody possibly prove somebody does something "too much" or "too little" in basketball when everybody's definition of those terms is different. Again, I find it difficult to believe you are doing anything more than trolling here because your reading comprehension and common sense can't possibly be this bad.

I did name and properly define the second stat. It's just the percentage of the team's shots a player has taken while on the court. If a player has a shot% of 25 that means he takes 1 out of every 4 of his team's shots while the player is on the floor. So it doesn't matter whether the shot is made, missed or who rebounded it. If there were a huge gap in differences between poss% and shot% between Jenkins and the players from previous years I mentioned then the offensive rebounding thing would be the thing that tipped the scaled. But, it didn't.

What I did prove by clear standards is that your contention that "Jenkins is the most ball dominant player we've had since Marcus Hatten" was demonstrably and verifiably false. That's the only one of your claims that I ever set out to dismiss, and I did pretty clearly and easily.
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He dictates too much of our offense…that is where the passing comes in. If he didn’t dominate the dribbling and take so many shots, passing would obviously not be an issue. It’s the totality of his impact that doesn’t allow anyone else to feel confident.

He’s simply not talented enough to have this kind of role. If he HAS to score, ok, get him off the ball. If he is going to handle it and facilitate our offense as much as he does, then he can’t also be taking 17 freaking shots.
 
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