Cooley versus Anderson

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[quote="newsman13" post=378666]Norm Roberts had much better players than Anderson has today. We saw how that went. Right now, Anderson is bringing in "Norm Quality" recruits...so we'll always be at the bottom of the league. At least they're more fun to watch.[/quote]

Yeah, that's just not true.

Norm's first class was: Cedric Jackson, Eugene Lawrence and Dexter Gray to go with Epperson, Maybank and Ryan Williams from Juco's. His second class, recruited in his first year on the job was: Mason Jr, Jasulonis, Ricky Torres and Aaron Spears.

Anderson's first class was: Champanie, McGriff, Dunn, Sears & Rutherford. His 2nd class is Cole (1st team JUCO all american), Moore (possibly another JUCO AA), Posh Alexander (4* local PG) and Wusu.

Champanie, Cole, Posh, Dunn are better than any player Norm brought in in his first two classes. And it's not even close. Yes Mason JR was a solid player here, and CJ ended up getting a cup of coffee in the NBA but his numbers here were abysmal.

I agree that the recruiting has to continue to improve, and I believe it will, but Anderson is recruiting circles around Norm at this stage in his career at St John's.
 
[quote="Redman#13" post=378696]Dayton and SDSU have one 4 star on the roster and are in the top 10. Stop with the you only need 4 and 5s to compete. Coaching up, game planning, culture, stability lead to success. See the attachment for the breakdown of recruits of teams in the top 10[/quote]

Stop. You are going to make Mike Zaun cry if you keep pointing out that top 50 guys aren't required to be good. That it's FAR more important to have competent hardworking coaches with an eye for talent that fits their system.
 
SJUFAN@ wrote: Yeah, that's just not true.

Norm's first class was: Cedric Jackson, Eugene Lawrence and Dexter Gray to go with Epperson, Maybank and Ryan Williams from Juco's. His second class, recruited in his first year on the job was: Mason Jr, Jasulonis, Ricky Torres and Aaron Spears.

Anderson's first class was: Champanie, McGriff, Dunn, Sears & Rutherford. His 2nd class is Cole (1st team JUCO all american), Moore (possibly another JUCO AA), Posh Alexander (4* local PG) and Wusu.

Champanie, Cole, Posh, Dunn are better than any player Norm brought in in his first two classes. And it's not even close. Yes Mason JR was a solid player here, and CJ ended up getting a cup of coffee in the NBA but his numbers here were abysmal.

I agree that the recruiting has to continue to improve, and I believe it will, but Anderson is recruiting circles around Norm at this stage in his career at St John's.

Probably a bit early to say categorically that any of CMAs recruits mentioned above are categorically better than Anthony Mason Jr., otherwise agree.
 
[quote="NCJohnnie" post=378723]SJUFAN@ wrote: Yeah, that's just not true.

Norm's first class was: Cedric Jackson, Eugene Lawrence and Dexter Gray to go with Epperson, Maybank and Ryan Williams from Juco's. His second class, recruited in his first year on the job was: Mason Jr, Jasulonis, Ricky Torres and Aaron Spears.

Anderson's first class was: Champanie, McGriff, Dunn, Sears & Rutherford. His 2nd class is Cole (1st team JUCO all american), Moore (possibly another JUCO AA), Posh Alexander (4* local PG) and Wusu.

Champanie, Cole, Posh, Dunn are better than any player Norm brought in in his first two classes. And it's not even close. Yes Mason JR was a solid player here, and CJ ended up getting a cup of coffee in the NBA but his numbers here were abysmal.

I agree that the recruiting has to continue to improve, and I believe it will, but Anderson is recruiting circles around Norm at this stage in his career at St John's.

Probably a bit early to say categorically that any of CMAs recruits mentioned above are categorically better than Anthony Mason Jr., otherwise agree.[/quote]

Yeah, It is. It's also too early to label his recruiting to be at Norm levels.

For what it's worth, Champaine's stats are better than Mason's across the board as a frosh.
 
[quote="SJUFAN2" post=378721][quote="Redman#13" post=378696]Dayton and SDSU have one 4 star on the roster and are in the top 10. Stop with the you only need 4 and 5s to compete. Coaching up, game planning, culture, stability lead to success. See the attachment for the breakdown of recruits of teams in the top 10[/quote]

Stop. You are going to make Mike Zaun cry if you keep pointing out that top 50 guys aren't required to be good. That it's FAR more important to have competent hardworking coaches with an eye for talent that fits their system.[/quote]

SDSU and Dayton are two big time exceptions to the rule. Why do people always focus on the exceptions as if they're the rule? Half court shots go in sometimes...so what? They almost never do. They're exceptions for a reason. The rule is that you need mostly 4 stars routinely to be a regular top 25 team regularly making runs in the tourney. I won't get into it, but SDSU's schedule is awful compared to any real major conference teams. So that is why they are in the top 10. You really think for a second they'd be top 10 if they were in a real conference? Their SOS is 101! So yes they are overachieving a lot but their ranking is totally inflated due to feeding on lots of no names. They blew out Creighton but that was early. I highly doubt they beat them now and we obviously don't beat Zona or WVU now either.

Bottom line is that you need very good recruiting and a very good coach to be able to consistently be a factor nationally with deep tourney runs. Mostly 3 stars and JUCO's won't cut it. They should patch holes.
 
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[quote="Mike Zaun" post=378726][quote="SJUFAN2" post=378721][quote="Redman#13" post=378696]Dayton and SDSU have one 4 star on the roster and are in the top 10. Stop with the you only need 4 and 5s to compete. Coaching up, game planning, culture, stability lead to success. See the attachment for the breakdown of recruits of teams in the top 10[/quote]

Stop. You are going to make Mike Zaun cry if you keep pointing out that top 50 guys aren't required to be good. That it's FAR more important to have competent hardworking coaches with an eye for talent that fits their system.[/quote]

SDSU and Dayton are two big time exceptions to the rule. Why do people always focus on the exceptions as if they're the rule? Half court shots go in sometimes...so what? They almost never do. They're exceptions for a reason. The rule is that you need mostly 4 stars routinely to be a regular top 25 team regularly making runs in the tourney. I won't get into it, but SDSU's schedule is awful compared to any real major conference teams. So that is why they are in the top 10. You really think for a second they'd be top 10 if they were in a real conference? Their SOS is 101! So yes they are overachieving a lot but their ranking is totally inflated due to feeding on lots of no names. They blew out Creighton but that was early. I highly doubt they beat them now and we obviously don't beat Zona or WVU now either.

Bottom line is that you need very good recruiting and a very good coach to be able to consistently be a factor nationally with deep tourney runs. Mostly 3 stars and JUCO's won't cut it. They should patch holes.[/quote]


This is where I think you are off on your claim. Here at St. Johns we had a roster full of 4 stars and only managed one tourney appearance.

Harrison
Sampson
Obekpa
Garrett
Jordan

cant remember who else was a 4 star if any one else, Or even if they all played at the same time
 
[quote="Redman#13" post=378729]

Harrison
Sampson
Obekpa
Garrett
Jordan

cant remember who else was a 4 star if any one else, Or even if they all played at the same time[/quote]

Pointer? Top rated recruit in that class of 2011. Jamal Branch was also a 4star out of HS. All of these guys played together for two years except Garrett only played the first year (17-16) and Jordan the 2nd(20-13).
 
[quote="austour" post=378731][quote="Redman#13" post=378729]

Harrison
Sampson
Obekpa
Garrett
Jordan

cant remember who else was a 4 star if any one else, Or even if they all played at the same time[/quote]

Pointer? Top rated recruit in that class of 2011. Jamal Branch was also a 4star out of HS. All of these guys played together for two years except Garrett only played the first year (17-16) and Jordan the 2nd(20-13).[/quote]


Was just about to add Pointer, forgot about Branch. But Yes a team full of 4*s that accomplished nothing.

HS rankings are misleading sometimes, a lot of times these kids are playing inferior opponents.
 
Simon and Heron were 5 stars and Ponds was a high 4 star. I also believe Figgy was 4 star out of Hs.
 
[quote="richard A Steinfeld" post=378736]Simon and Heron were 5 stars and Ponds was a high 4 star. I also believe Figgy was 4 star out of Hs.[/quote]

Yes I think Figueroa was ranked 82 from Rivals. The truth is that Figueroa and his ranking are the overall level of recruit we should look to grab. He has been great for us and is not a Ponds, but is very talented and a team player. 4+ Figueroa-ranked types in our starting roster and we are playing ball unlike now.
 
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I know it doesn't always work out this neatly but I think you need at least 1 top 50 type guy to be the star player preferably a guard. You need several top 100 4 star guys and a few high 3 star glue guys then patch holes with transfers/JUCO's. Yes recruiting alone is not enough as we saw with Lavin. He was bringing us great recruiting but could not coach a lick. It was blatantly obvious watching us run offensive weaves at the top of the key going east to west but never to the basket. Our players never got better save for very few. Others were low character kids who brought drama e.g. Jordan, Obekpa, even Pointer had moments, etc. I've been saying all along that CMA is a good enough coach to consistently get us to the tourney and at worst around mid tier Big East consistently but the huge IF is recruiting.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=378759]I know it doesn't always work out this neatly but I think you need at least 1 top 50 type guy to be the star player preferably a guard. You need several top 100 4 star guys and a few high 3 star glue guys then patch holes with transfers/JUCO's. Yes recruiting alone is not enough as we saw with Lavin. He was bringing us great recruiting but could not coach a lick. It was blatantly obvious watching us run offensive weaves at the top of the key going east to west but never to the basket. Our players never got better save for very few. Others were low character kids who brought drama e.g. Jordan, Obekpa, even Pointer had moments, etc. I've been saying all along that CMA is a good enough coach to consistently get us to the tourney and at worst around mid tier Big East consistently but the huge IF is recruiting.[/quote]

Lavin couldnt coach a lick?

In the 4 years he was coaching SJU in the BE he went 12-6, 8-8, 10-8 and 10-8. (Yes I left out the Dunlap year and in the 8-8 year he missed 2 games due to the death of his father)

There were plenty of issues with Lavin and how he built his staff and going for the stud recruit with issues however how often has SJU been above 500 in 4 out of 5 total years in the BE?
 
[quote="austour" post=378731][quote="Redman#13" post=378729]

Harrison
Sampson
Obekpa
Garrett
Jordan

cant remember who else was a 4 star if any one else, Or even if they all played at the same time[/quote]

Pointer? Top rated recruit in that class of 2011. Jamal Branch was also a 4star out of HS. All of these guys played together for two years except Garrett only played the first year (17-16) and Jordan the 2nd(20-13).[/quote]

My guess is if Anderson had these players...we'd be in for a good run in the NCAA's. Right now, all we have is the worst shooters at any level in America. Forget the rankings...if you can't shoot, you're a one star player.
 
[quote="Moose" post=378760][quote="Mike Zaun" post=378759]I know it doesn't always work out this neatly but I think you need at least 1 top 50 type guy to be the star player preferably a guard. You need several top 100 4 star guys and a few high 3 star glue guys then patch holes with transfers/JUCO's. Yes recruiting alone is not enough as we saw with Lavin. He was bringing us great recruiting but could not coach a lick. It was blatantly obvious watching us run offensive weaves at the top of the key going east to west but never to the basket. Our players never got better save for very few. Others were low character kids who brought drama e.g. Jordan, Obekpa, even Pointer had moments, etc. I've been saying all along that CMA is a good enough coach to consistently get us to the tourney and at worst around mid tier Big East consistently but the huge IF is recruiting.[/quote]

Lavin couldnt coach a lick?

In the 4 years he was coaching SJU in the BE he went 12-6, 8-8, 10-8 and 10-8. (Yes I left out the Dunlap year and in the 8-8 year he missed 2 games due to the death of his father)

There were plenty of issues with Lavin and how he built his staff and going for the stud recruit with issues however how often has SJU been above 500 in 4 out of 5 total years in the BE?[/quote]

Thank you, Moose! This is one of those overplayed tales that often is regurgitated even though it lacks any true "meat and potatoes."

The guy won 65% of his games at UCLA, advanced to the Sweet 16 five times in seven seasons, along with an Elite 8 appearance. This was also done with injuries to key cogs of his team.

He won 60% of his games at St. John's and finished 10 games over .500 in conference play. Although, I wished he had more tournament success at St. John's; he did at least had us competitive and relevant.

I'll admit he did come with a wart or two, but I don't consider someone who has won 63% of his games he's coached (and 60% of his conference games at two separate schools) and an 11-9 NCAA Tournament record as someone who couldn't "coach a lick."
 
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Here's what I like about Willard and Cooley. They both have proved that a down program doesn't have to be a dog in the conference forever. A strong Big East is better for everyone in conference.

To Moose's comments, to some extent many of us got greedy, that two NCAA's in 5 years were not good enough, and that Lavin wasn't going to elevate the program past the 1 and done NCAA appearance half the seasons. Our conference record is a good measure of the fact he took us from hopelessness (Roberts) to a modicum of success. I'm not privy to inside information, but I kind of think the decision to part ways wasn't clear cut.

In my opinion Anderson can and will get us back at least to the level of success Lavin had, with the hope that he can not get stuck at the level Lavin departed. It may be 3 years out, but the sincere hope is we can be put a top 25 team on the floor and compete for a national championship. Hard to put that forth now as we struggle this season, but this is why he is here.
 
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Lavin was an interesting case, because you knew with the eye test his SJ teams would not go anywhere significant despite all the great recruits. Yes his records were pretty good, but don't you remember fighting tooth and nail just to make the tournament even when we had deep, experienced teams chock full of 4-5 star guys? We went down to the wire to barely make the tourney except the 2011 year. Once we made it we bent over instantly. With the rosters we had, we should've been competing for Big East titles. A good coach gets us there with that talent. Lavin held them back. Sir Dom was terrible until his SR year when he finally found himself. He was a Jordan Brand top 30 kid I believe. Borderline 5 star. By the time he finally started playing like it, he was gone. We get Orlando Sanchez who we think is the missing piece and we still underperform a ton. A huge part of coaching is developing players and Lavin was very poor in that area. So he was never going to be a real long-term answer here unless our ceiling is fighting for NCAA berths with some of the most talented lineups in America. It would be like a Pro Bowl level NFL team barely making the playoffs as a WC team winning on a FG with time expiring. Well coached teams live up to expectations at worst and at best exceed them. CMA at least has a real plan but as Windy City said in another thread, we used to be all in on transfers now we are all in on JUCO's. I highly doubt you win at this level consistently that way. You need mostly 4 star HS kids as your foundation.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=378775]Lavin was an interesting case, because you knew with the eye test his SJ teams would not go anywhere significant despite all the great recruits. Yes his records were pretty good, but don't you remember fighting tooth and nail just to make the tournament even when we had deep, experienced teams chock full of 4-5 star guys? We went down to the wire to barely make the tourney except the 2011 year. Once we made it we bent over instantly. With the rosters we had, we should've been competing for Big East titles. A good coach gets us there with that talent. Lavin held them back. Sir Dom was terrible until his SR year when he finally found himself. He was a Jordan Brand top 30 kid I believe. Borderline 5 star. By the time he finally started playing like it, he was gone. We get Orlando Sanchez who we think is the missing piece and we still underperform a ton. A huge part of coaching is developing players and Lavin was very poor in that area. So he was never going to be a real long-term answer here unless our ceiling is fighting for NCAA berths with some of the most talented lineups in America. It would be like a Pro Bowl level NFL team barely making the playoffs as a WC team winning on a FG with time expiring. Well coached teams live up to expectations at worst and at best exceed them. CMA at least has a real plan but as Windy City said in another thread, we used to be all in on transfers now we are all in on JUCO's. I highly doubt you win at this level consistently that way. You need mostly 4 star HS kids as your foundation.[/quote]

Lavin failed to recruit a balanced roster of big men and guards, and his last team was essentially a rotation 5 guards and Obekpa.

However he was decisive enough to start Hardy and Brownlee over Boothe and Evans, which more than anything else was the reason the team exceeded thing Roberts could have produced. I always had the feeling that to Roberts both Boothe and Omari Lawrence were mini-me's to him, that if given the chance he didn't get, could be undersized top flight Big East performers. Hardy overall was so much better, it was sick what he produced in his one season as a starter. Brownlee was a rock solid big man until he broke his finger, the first crack in the armor our team was presenting to opponents that culminated with DJ Kennedy's and SJU's hopes ending crumpled in a heap vs. Syracuse.

The decision to have Pointer, a mediocre ballhandler at best,push the call up court to lead a running attack, was innovative and freed up Harrison from the burden of always having the ball in his hand. Unfortunately that season crashed when the Wooden award candidate Harrison finally showed he was physically human when he injured his shoulder after mid season. All hopes went up in smoke with Obekpa's failed drug test.

It was the best 5 year run (minus year 2) that our program had since Jarvis left, and better than anything anyone else not named JArvis achieved since Carnesecca.
 
I think we all need a dose of reality as fans. We are aiming for consistent sweet 16/final 4 teams when in reality we should really really be happy just to make the tourney each year and count that as a success.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=378775]Lavin was an interesting case, because you knew with the eye test his SJ teams would not go anywhere significant despite all the great recruits. Yes his records were pretty good, but don't you remember fighting tooth and nail just to make the tournament even when we had deep, experienced teams chock full of 4-5 star guys? We went down to the wire to barely make the tourney except the 2011 year. Once we made it we bent over instantly. With the rosters we had, we should've been competing for Big East titles. A good coach gets us there with that talent. Lavin held them back. Sir Dom was terrible until his SR year when he finally found himself. He was a Jordan Brand top 30 kid I believe. Borderline 5 star. By the time he finally started playing like it, he was gone. We get Orlando Sanchez who we think is the missing piece and we still underperform a ton. A huge part of coaching is developing players and Lavin was very poor in that area. So he was never going to be a real long-term answer here unless our ceiling is fighting for NCAA berths with some of the most talented lineups in America. It would be like a Pro Bowl level NFL team barely making the playoffs as a WC team winning on a FG with time expiring. Well coached teams live up to expectations at worst and at best exceed them. CMA at least has a real plan but as Windy City said in another thread, we used to be all in on transfers now we are all in on JUCO's. I highly doubt you win at this level consistently that way. You need mostly 4 star HS kids as your foundation.[/quote]

None of what you postulated constitutes Lavin couldn't "coach a lick."
 
I think Lavin gets a bad rap on here by some people. He was a good recruiter (not great, but good) and a good face of the program with the media. And he pushed to upgrade the program in terms of travel, facilities, training etc. He clearly was a huge factor in getting Norm's players to maximize their collective abilities in his first season - and I still believe that could have been a special team that made a good run if DJ didn't get hurt.

That said, I think his fourth year was by far his most talented team - and that team under-performed terribly. The should have easily been a NCAA tournament team, not a team that gets blown out in the first round of the NIT.

I think what you saw with Lavin is what you would get every year had he remained - probably 20-22 wins a year, hanging around the bubble, make the Dance every couple of years with a mediocre seed and an early exit in the NCAAs. That's not awful, and it's better than we've done since he left, but I like to think we should hope for more.

I think the Mullin hiring was an attempt to shoot for the stars. Maybe the Crown Prince of the St. John's program could lead us to even greater heights, with his NBA pedigree and HoF credentials. It didn't work out that way, and those on this board who feel we should have stuck with Lavin aren't crazy.

Personally, I think that after all of this upheaval we actually now have the best coach we have had since Looie retired. Of course, CMA is now stuck with a full rebuild and all of us have to be patient yet again.
 
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