Coaching Decision Poll

[Class of 72]

^^^ Very thoughtful first post, Johnnies Not Lately. It actually expresses exactly my thoughts and position on Lavin and the state of our program.

I agree Simplyred,
When you consider this poll was started by a rabid Lavin hater hoping to show the world how right he and the other numbsculls have been about what the "majority " really thinks, the results are a kick in the ass.
Half hour into the poll the pollster makes a premature declaration. At that point your most [strike]Rabinowitz[/strike] rabinous haters had voted already, polls closed, results dead even. Everyone saves face. Unfortunately 24 hours later even after a few multiple screen name votes from "fans" that have never set foot on the St. John's campus, the results are still in the 60-40 range. Now, some of the resident experts and insiders are starting to insert their rationale for such shocking results, e.g., redmen.com does not have a sizable poll sample of fans, we need at least 500 votes, Paultzman even alludes to premature ejaculatory announcements like Dewey, assumptions the "voters" didn't come out to vote because, hey it was assumed Lavin would be fired as soon as he stepped off the tarmac in NYC, blah, blah,blah. Perhaps the brainiacs here should have started a different poll. While our President was socializing with the team and hugging Lavin one guy not holding hands with President Bobby was missing. Any guesses?

 

[Marillac]

The last part rings true.
If you knew they would get Bobby Hurley or Archie Miller, would you be willing to fire Lavin?

That's the key question. I've turned it into a poll for those interested.

I just have no faith in the school making a proper hire. Anyone involved in the decision to hire Norm Roberts with his 24-84 record at Queens College should have been lined up for every SJU fan to slap once. If you go the up-and-comer route, you get a guy like Archie Miller or Bobby Hurley, with past accomplishments that suggest they will achieve success. You don't hire a past failure and hope for the best.

Couldn't agree with you more on this

We've been traumatized by a string of horrible past decisions with regards to the basketball program
( I wouldn't put Lavin in that category because I think hiring Lavin was great at the time and even knowing what I know now I'd still have done the same thing because I don't remember there being a bunch of attractive names at the time that were legitimate )

What's sad is that I think Fran actually had everything needed to be a legend here. He just went off the reservation a little bit. If he didn't, the past 20 years at SJU could have been a lot different.

 

[fuchsia]

The last part rings true.
If you knew they would get Bobby Hurley or Archie Miller, would you be willing to fire Lavin?

That's the key question. I've turned it into a poll for those interested.

I just have no faith in the school making a proper hire. Anyone involved in the decision to hire Norm Roberts with his 24-84 record at Queens College should have been lined up for every SJU fan to slap once. If you go the up-and-comer route, you get a guy like Archie Miller or Bobby Hurley, with past accomplishments that suggest they will achieve success. You don't hire a past failure and hope for the best.

Couldn't agree with you more on this

We've been traumatized by a string of horrible past decisions with regards to the basketball program
( I wouldn't put Lavin in that category because I think hiring Lavin was great at the time and even knowing what I know now I'd still have done the same thing because I don't remember there being a bunch of attractive names at the time that were legitimate )

What's sad is that I think Fran actually had everything needed to be a legend here. He just went off the reservation a little bit. If he didn't, the past 20 years at SJU could have been a lot different.

Could not disagree more. I think Fran is so much happier with his current life than as a coach. It's one thing to have a competitive attitude. It's not quite as useful when the attitude has you.

 

[tom in salem]

http://www.silive.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/03/poll_would_you_keep_steve_lavi.html

 

[Marillac]

I have been a fan since the early 1980's. I have read just about every post on this board since the very beginning, but I have only posted once or twice ever. I couldn't even figure out how to post without hitting reply. LOL. I wanted to note my background, because I suspect that the votes are coming from many like me who don't post regularly. (ie the vote total is the genuine view of the board and not just a product of yes people being better at creating alternative login accounts. LOL)

I voted yes and here is why. The last 5 years have been a very bumpy road. I have been disappointed by the constant drama. However, when you are not already at the top, I think it hard to be as selective in avoiding players with baggage (see SHU for example). It would help to get us over the hump, if Lavin was also an outstanding game coach, but he is not. As with many fans, I have not been that happy with our style of play. However, there are a lot of very successful coaches (several still in the current sweet 16) who more or less play the same style as us. As much as I don't like our style some times, I am not convinced that our style of play is really holding us back. it should be noted that Lavin also clearly has some coaching strengths. Particularly, he seems to be a very good player manager. How in the world he gets the kids not to quit when we have some bad losses is beyond me, and how he completely changed DLO's attitude is impressive. The bottom line is, if Lavin can recruit at the level he has generally achieved at both UCLA and here, I think we will be in the tournament pretty consistently.

The main question for the immediate future then is why Lavin hasn't reloaded us with talent, particularly last years class. The thing I keep coming back to is how Lavin answered a question from a reporter about our lack of recent recruiting. I believe it was during a post game interview during our bad streak, but I am not sure. Lavin's response was basically, he acknowledged that we have had some major problems overall, but insisted that recruiting is not one of them. He said that we are in the best position recruiting-wise that we have been in since he got here. Now I know Lavin's tendency to exaggerate, but the way he kind of laughed when answering the question gave me the distinct impression that this is not BS. So, I will wait and see.

My guess is that if they extend him, this years and next years recruiting class will turn out better then some expect. If so, 2 years from now I imagine that we will be back to the talent level we had last year and this year. If we have that kind of talent consistently, we will generally be in the tournament and hopefully sometimes make a deeper run. I would be happy with that. If the recruiting does not go well, I hope that the extension has a lower buyout. But based on Lavin's comment, and his large body of work recruiting wise, I believe that we generally have a better chance at quickly getting back to that talent level by keeping him, rather than going in a new direction.

That is why I voted yes.

Great post and welcome. We could use more posts from reasonable fans like you around here. I suspected the silent majority wasn't as negative about the program or the coach. Message boards are dominated by a very small sampling of the fans.

I agree with everything you wrote.

 

[1and1sju]

^^^ Very thoughtful first post, Johnnies Not Lately. It actually expresses exactly my thoughts and position on Lavin and the state of our program.

I agree Simplyred,
When you consider this poll was started by a rabid Lavin hater hoping to show the world how right he and the other numbsculls have been about what the "majority " really thinks, the results are a kick in the ass.
Half hour into the poll the pollster makes a premature declaration. At that point your most [strike]Rabinowitz[/strike] rabinous haters had voted already, polls closed, results dead even. Everyone saves face. Unfortunately 24 hours later even after a few multiple screen name votes from "fans" that have never set foot on the St. John's campus, the results are still in the 60-40 range. Now, some of the resident experts and insiders are starting to insert their rationale for such shocking results, e.g., redmen.com does not have a sizable poll sample of fans, we need at least 500 votes, Paultzman even alludes to premature ejaculatory announcements like Dewey, assumptions the "voters" didn't come out to vote because, hey it was assumed Lavin would be fired as soon as he stepped off the tarmac in NYC, blah, blah,blah. Perhaps the brainiacs here should have started a different poll. While our President was socializing with the team and hugging Lavin one guy not holding hands with President Bobby was missing. Any guesses?

You are dunce of the first order.
Not everything is as cynical as you frame it. I offered the poll to genuinely see how the fan base feels on the issue at hand. There's no right or wrong answer. The President is going to do what he feels is best regardless of this poll.
If more people wanted to fire Lavin it wouldn't mean I "won", it would just show that's what the popular opinion is.

 

[lawmanfan]

I have been a fan since the early 1980's. I have read just about every post on this board since the very beginning, but I have only posted once or twice ever. I couldn't even figure out how to post without hitting reply. LOL. I wanted to note my background, because I suspect that the votes are coming from many like me who don't post regularly. (ie the vote total is the genuine view of the board and not just a product of yes people being better at creating alternative login accounts. LOL)

I voted yes and here is why. The last 5 years have been a very bumpy road. I have been disappointed by the constant drama. However, when you are not already at the top, I think it hard to be as selective in avoiding players with baggage (see SHU for example). It would help to get us over the hump, if Lavin was also an outstanding game coach, but he is not. As with many fans, I have not been that happy with our style of play. However, there are a lot of very successful coaches (several still in the current sweet 16) who more or less play the same style as us. As much as I don't like our style some times, I am not convinced that our style of play is really holding us back. it should be noted that Lavin also clearly has some coaching strengths. Particularly, he seems to be a very good player manager. How in the world he gets the kids not to quit when we have some bad losses is beyond me, and how he completely changed DLO's attitude is impressive. The bottom line is, if Lavin can recruit at the level he has generally achieved at both UCLA and here, I think we will be in the tournament pretty consistently.

The main question for the immediate future then is why Lavin hasn't reloaded us with talent, particularly last years class. The thing I keep coming back to is how Lavin answered a question from a reporter about our lack of recent recruiting. I believe it was during a post game interview during our bad streak, but I am not sure. Lavin's response was basically, he acknowledged that we have had some major problems overall, but insisted that recruiting is not one of them. He said that we are in the best position recruiting-wise that we have been in since he got here. Now I know Lavin's tendency to exaggerate, but the way he kind of laughed when answering the question gave me the distinct impression that this is not BS. So, I will wait and see.

My guess is that if they extend him, this years and next years recruiting class will turn out better then some expect. If so, 2 years from now I imagine that we will be back to the talent level we had last year and this year. If we have that kind of talent consistently, we will generally be in the tournament and hopefully sometimes make a deeper run. I would be happy with that. If the recruiting does not go well, I hope that the extension has a lower buyout. But based on Lavin's comment, and his large body of work recruiting wise, I believe that we generally have a better chance at quickly getting back to that talent level by keeping him, rather than going in a new direction.

That is why I voted yes.

This is a very reasonable post. Thanks for joining the conversation.

For me the things you identify are precisely the reason why Lavin is the wrong man for the job (turmoil, poor game coach). To some extent your reason for keeping him is based more on a projection of what you think he will do on the recruiting front going forward. I don't share your confidence in that, and even if I did I think his lack of coaching ability will consistently result in the team underperforming any talent he recruits.

I also disagree that you can find a team in the Sweet 16 that is remotely as poorly coached or that plays our "style" (which is really the lack of any organized offense).

And if two years from now we are back to our talent level then that will mean 3 NCAA appearances every 8 years (with blowout exits in the first round) is the standard for success, which is not my standard.

I guess the question is whether the glass is half empty or half full. I respect your opinion that the glass is half full, but also respectfully disagree.

 

[lawmanfan]

^^^ Very thoughtful first post, Johnnies Not Lately. It actually expresses exactly my thoughts and position on Lavin and the state of our program.

I agree Simplyred,
When you consider this poll was started by a rabid Lavin hater hoping to show the world how right he and the other numbsculls have been about what the "majority " really thinks, the results are a kick in the ass.
Half hour into the poll the pollster makes a premature declaration. At that point your most [strike]Rabinowitz[/strike] rabinous haters had voted already, polls closed, results dead even. Everyone saves face. Unfortunately 24 hours later even after a few multiple screen name votes from "fans" that have never set foot on the St. John's campus, the results are still in the 60-40 range. Now, some of the resident experts and insiders are starting to insert their rationale for such shocking results, e.g., redmen.com does not have a sizable poll sample of fans, we need at least 500 votes, Paultzman even alludes to premature ejaculatory announcements like Dewey, assumptions the "voters" didn't come out to vote because, hey it was assumed Lavin would be fired as soon as he stepped off the tarmac in NYC, blah, blah,blah. Perhaps the brainiacs here should have started a different poll. While our President was socializing with the team and hugging Lavin one guy not holding hands with President Bobby was missing. Any guesses?

You are dunce of the first order.
Not everything is as cynical as you frame it. I offered the poll to genuinely see how the fan base feels on the issue at hand. There's no right or wrong answer. The President is going to do what he feels is best regardless of this poll.
If more people wanted to fire Lavin it wouldn't mean I "won", it would just show that's what the popular opinion is.

Please don't feed the trolls. It only encourages them.

 

[Knight]

I heard Vin Parise of Fox Sports on Bruce Beck's NBC's Sports Final on Sunday night, say that Lavin's Crew "brought excitement back to the program and he expects to see him back for 1 more year."

Lavin back with no extension is worse case. Can't recruit.

 

[tim23red]

What is the rule at a poker table? If you can't find the sucker in 10 minutes, its you who is the sucker. Put Lavin at a poker table with the other coaches, do you feel he would outwit anyone? This is nothing against him personally, nor do I wish him ill will but can we do better? Have we underachieved? I expected 25 wins this year. I don't believe that was asking too much. Are there always discipline problems ? Yes. Are we poorly set up for the next two years? Yes. Does the Big East need St. John's to be in its top half yearly? Yes. I don't beileve it happens under Lavin's watch. I see him as a Rex Ryan- he is great with the media, players like to play for him, but like that High School English teacher who you loved but realized after graduating you didn't learn much (if at all) players don't get to their potential under Lavin.-Just My Two Cents.

 

[southernjohnny2]

What is the rule at a poker table? If you can't find the sucker in 10 minutes, its you who is the sucker. Put Lavin at a poker table with the other coaches, do you feel he would outwit anyone? This is nothing against him personally, nor do I wish him ill will but can we do better? Have we underachieved? I expected 25 wins this year. I don't believe that was asking too much. Are there always discipline problems ? Yes. Are we poorly set up for the next two years? Yes. Does the Big East need St. John's to be in its top half yearly? Yes. I don't beileve it happens under Lavin's watch. I see him as a Rex Ryan- he is great with the media, players like to play for him, but like that High School English teacher who you loved but realized after graduating you didn't learn much (if at all) players don't get to their potential under Lavin.-Just My Two Cents.

I would of agreed with you after the game Friday night which was a hard pill to swallow, however when I look at the difference in Pointer this season, and how much his game improved and his patience at the top of the key against the zone I was impressed. He was named most improved in the conference. I was impressed with the maturity of Dlo all season long. He really matured. Then I go to Sheed, and he really matured as well as the season went on. He went from a me first euro walking selfish take it to the hole everytime to letting the game come to him.

I agree the recruiting this last cycle was a mess. He should of had a couple blue chippers to fill the gap so we weren't left with a bakers dozen of schollies to give out.I really like what we have coming in next year, and have been a big fan of BSamp, and Samir, I think both of them will be instant offense from day 1. We got on Samir before he blew up, and locked him up. I think we are good at guards but definitely need a really good couple of forwards. I am not one wanting Obekpa coming back, but Sheed would be huge

 

[bamafan]

I heard Vin Parise of Fox Sports on Bruce Beck's NBC's Sports Final on Sunday night, say that Lavin's Crew "brought excitement back to the program and he expects to see him back for 1 more year."

Lavin back with no extension is worse case. Can't recruit.

Just goes to show you what clowns these talking heads are. Lame duck coach on last year is bad at pro level let alone college where it hampers recruiting.

 

[beast of the east]

Here's another poll to consider. If you voted yes, would you really be that upset if Lavin wasn't back next season?

 

[TonyinFairfield]

Here's another poll to consider. If you voted yes, would you really be that upset if Lavin wasn't back next season?

Depends on who replaced him. I would be very upset if it was one of the Hurleys or Masiello. I would be somewhat cautious if it were Miller. Absolutely thrilled if it were Jay Wright, Rick Pitino or John Calipari! But we all know, "that ain't happening!"

 

[JackofVirginia]

After hearing the way the departing Seniors spoke so highly of Lavin, plus all that Lavin had to go through personally here with the cancer, loss of his Father etc. Harkless and Sampson leaving early, I say extend him. D-Lo said at the press conference after the game that he was probably going to call Lavin everyday for the rest of his life. That says something. I know it's about wins and loses, I also realize that even though we have won 20 games two years in a row and three out of 5 years with two NCAA's, that we still expect a little more than that at this point. But, taking all factors into consideration, everything I mentioned, graduation rate etc. I say extend him with a low buyout. I would also either force hime to hire another recruiter, someone very well known and capable or hire another really x's and O's guy in addition to Whitesell. Just my humble opinion.

Let's take a long look at all these assistants, including Keady.

 

[lawmanfan]

What is the rule at a poker table? If you can't find the sucker in 10 minutes, its you who is the sucker. Put Lavin at a poker table with the other coaches, do you feel he would outwit anyone? This is nothing against him personally, nor do I wish him ill will but can we do better? Have we underachieved? I expected 25 wins this year. I don't believe that was asking too much. Are there always discipline problems ? Yes. Are we poorly set up for the next two years? Yes. Does the Big East need St. John's to be in its top half yearly? Yes. I don't beileve it happens under Lavin's watch. I see him as a Rex Ryan- he is great with the media, players like to play for him, but like that High School English teacher who you loved but realized after graduating you didn't learn much (if at all) players don't get to their potential under Lavin.-Just My Two Cents.

I would of agreed with you after the game Friday night which was a hard pill to swallow, however when I look at the difference in Pointer this season, and how much his game improved and his patience at the top of the key against the zone I was impressed. He was named most improved in the conference. I was impressed with the maturity of Dlo all season long. He really matured. Then I go to Sheed, and he really matured as well as the season went on. He went from a me first euro walking selfish take it to the hole everytime to letting the game come to him.

I agree the recruiting this last cycle was a mess. He should of had a couple blue chippers to fill the gap so we weren't left with a bakers dozen of schollies to give out.I really like what we have coming in next year, and have been a big fan of BSamp, and Samir, I think both of them will be instant offense from day 1. We got on Samir before he blew up, and locked him up. I think we are good at guards but definitely need a really good couple of forwards. I am not one wanting Obekpa coming back, but Sheed would be huge

It's interesting to see Lavin getting credit for the improvement in Dom. If you read the article about Dom's improvement, what actually occurred is that Dom's father couldn't figure out why Dom had lost so much confidence and gotten so bad under Lavin. He went and found a basketball tutor for Dom in California, and the rest is history.

I can't think of many things more damning than for a player to get so little help from an NCAA Division 1 coach and staff that his father had to go find outside help for him. Which clearly did a heck of a lot more for the kid than anyone here did.

Similarly I'll give Lavin some credit for suspending Harrison (though I'm pretty sure he really didn't have much of a choice). Yet it was Lucas who spurred the transformation. Once again, a player who didn't get what he needed here and had to go elsewhere to get it.

 

[stjohnschris]

What is the rule at a poker table? If you can't find the sucker in 10 minutes, its you who is the sucker. Put Lavin at a poker table with the other coaches, do you feel he would outwit anyone? This is nothing against him personally, nor do I wish him ill will but can we do better? Have we underachieved? I expected 25 wins this year. I don't believe that was asking too much. Are there always discipline problems ? Yes. Are we poorly set up for the next two years? Yes. Does the Big East need St. John's to be in its top half yearly? Yes. I don't beileve it happens under Lavin's watch. I see him as a Rex Ryan- he is great with the media, players like to play for him, but like that High School English teacher who you loved but realized after graduating you didn't learn much (if at all) players don't get to their potential under Lavin.-Just My Two Cents.

I would of agreed with you after the game Friday night which was a hard pill to swallow, however when I look at the difference in Pointer this season, and how much his game improved and his patience at the top of the key against the zone I was impressed. He was named most improved in the conference. I was impressed with the maturity of Dlo all season long. He really matured. Then I go to Sheed, and he really matured as well as the season went on. He went from a me first euro walking selfish take it to the hole everytime to letting the game come to him.

I agree the recruiting this last cycle was a mess. He should of had a couple blue chippers to fill the gap so we weren't left with a bakers dozen of schollies to give out.I really like what we have coming in next year, and have been a big fan of BSamp, and Samir, I think both of them will be instant offense from day 1. We got on Samir before he blew up, and locked him up. I think we are good at guards but definitely need a really good couple of forwards. I am not one wanting Obekpa coming back, but Sheed would be huge

It's interesting to see Lavin getting credit for the improvement in Dom. If you read the article about Dom's improvement, what actually occurred is that Dom's father couldn't figure out why Dom had lost so much confidence and gotten so bad under Lavin. He went and found a basketball tutor for Dom in California, and the rest is history.

I can't think of many things more damning than for a player to get so little help from an NCAA Division 1 coach and staff that his father had to go find outside help for him. Which clearly did a heck of a lot more for the kid than anyone here did.

Similarly I'll give Lavin some credit for suspending Harrison (though I'm pretty sure he really didn't have much of a choice). Yet it was Lucas who spurred the transformation. Once again, a player who didn't get what he needed here and had to go elsewhere to get it.

Excellent point, I'm not sure if this NY Post article got posted to the board, but it's a good read going into detail about lawmanfan's post.
http://nypost.com/2015/03/12/this-fix-turned-st-johns-pointer-from-a-reserve-to-a-game-player/

 

[Avon Barksdale]

i think the results of this poll dont really reflect the poster's confidence in Lavin as a coach, but rather SJU's inability to target a replacement who will be more effective than Lavin.

with all due respect to desco since he is one of my favorite posters, i think the other poll with Lavin, Miller Hurley and Other as the choices is a better poll to see the pulse of the posters

 

[TonyinFairfield]

i think the results of this poll dont really reflect the poster's confidence in Lavin as a coach, but rather SJU's inability to target a replacement who will be more effective than Lavin.

with all due respect to desco since he is one of my favorite posters, i think the other poll with Lavin, Miller Hurley and Other as the choices is a better poll to see the pulse of the posters

What a shock. Because the results are not to your liking, this poll does not reflect the posters' confidence in Lavin. Rather it focuses on SJU's inability to target a replacement who will be more effective than Lavin.

Good spin. Unfortunately, it's not applicable here. This poll asked a simple question and as of now, 62% of respondents favor giving Lavin an extension. THAT'S a fact.

 

[monte]

i think the results of this poll dont really reflect the poster's confidence in Lavin as a coach, but rather SJU's inability to target a replacement who will be more effective than Lavin.

with all due respect to desco since he is one of my favorite posters, i think the other poll with Lavin, Miller Hurley and Other as the choices is a better poll to see the pulse of the posters

I think Desco's poll was telling, and I thank him for posting it. I do think that if the poll asked the question "who thinks Lavin should be signed to a long term extension(IE 5 years)" the results would be far different. It seems that most who voted to extend him feel that he should be given more time in light of his health issues, the state of the program when he took over, etc. But I can't imagine that there are to many diehard fans who have enough faith in Lavin that they would be willing to support a long term extension.