Back to the Drawing Board.......

At this point now I think he can still walk away without much being tarnished. Coming back with the team that seems likely for next year and things can revert back to Year 1 levels and that will then start tarnishing more.

I said it with Lav and will say it again. You can't build on success once every 4 years. It might take 3-4 years to build a winner but then you have to sustain it. Can't just press reset and go back to year 1 for another run.

[quote="redmanwest" post=333215]That's not radical or wrong at all. I'd agree with that as well. The main reason I had trepidation with CM taking the job was that his image and reputation as our greatest player would be tarnished (by those who can't make the differentiation).

But, of course, he's being paid to do a job and should be held accountable. I am just saying that maybe we need to right-size our expectations in this current world of college basketball where schools with resources can maybe spend more and build better facilities to gain advantage; where some schools have obviously and continue to cheat; and a plethora of other reasons that SJU is slower to improve that we'd like.

I know that we can compare what we've seen to schools even in our own conference (X, Providence, Creighton, Georgetown) that have seemingly been able to have more stable programs than we do.

I am just saying that while the improvement has not been satisfactory, there has been improvement.

One last point, those of us who saw the heyday (with CM playing) are more inclined in some respects to be impatient and disgruntled since we saw the NCAA every single year (w/ an occasional NIT). So to us, it is very hard to have a team that is irrelevant.



[quote="Mike Zaun" post=333212]There will always be that disconnect between those who grew up with Mullin posters and attended games he played at SJ. Half the fanbase wants Mullin literally no matter what happens results wise because of the emotional connection, which I understand to a point. The other half wants what's best for the program first and more easily puts the emotions aside since we never saw him play here or maybe even in the NBA. I don't see what's radical about putting results and the program first.[/quote][/quote]
 
That's fair, Moose. I'd also say that most of us gave up on being Syracuse years ago. All the fans including myself are asking for is to be PC or SHU. When that seems to be too much to ask, that's all you need to know about where we are as a program unfortunately.
 
Sorry, but Bobby Hurley roaming the sidelines at the corner of Utopia and Union is not happening! Coach Mullin's season-by-season results have shown progress every year, whether you like it or not. Yes, this team should have been Sweet 16 bound. Some of that IS on Coach and staff, some of it IS NOT. Projecting that next season will be a disaster before it has even started is moot and will only furstrate you even more. Unfortunately, we have to let it play out and hope for the best.

Coach will be given next season and possibly the season after (assuming he wants it). If some of you don't like it, I suggest you find another team to root for.
 
[quote="ZanMan" post=333219]Sorry, but Bobby Hurley roaming the sidelines at the corner of Utopia and Union is not happening! Coach Mullin's season-by-season results have shown progress every year, whether you like it or not. Yes, this team should have been Sweet 16 bound. Some of that IS on Coach and staff, some of it IS NOT. Projecting that next season will be a disaster before it has even started is moot and will only furstrate you even more. Unfortunately, we have to let it play out and hope for the best.

Coach will be given next season and possibly the season after (assuming he wants it). If some of you don't like it, I suggest you find another team to root for.[/quote]

Thanks for the suggestion!
 
To me, he will always be our best player, even if his coaching tenure were to turn out badly. And, even if his coaching tenure turns out badly, I would still give him credit for trying to improve the team when he really doesn't have to. He doesn't need the money. It is not inconsistent to admire the effort and intent while also seeing the flaws and wanting a change, at some point.

The main flaw (there are a few), which I think is correctable, is the recruiting imbalances (no size, little depth, reliance on transfers etc). The coaching deficiencies are harder to improve since it is a matter of style, effort, etc. Hopefully, CM can improve, or supplement his staff to address these.
 
Progress objectively, yes. But this is where nuance comes in. Anyone can schedule a butter soft OOC that Vitale and may other major pundits made fun of. If we scheduled like SHU for OOC we wouldn't even be close to the NCAA's. We won on talent alone because the discrepancy was so large. Once we started playing real teams we quickly went into a tailspin. Once again, zero excuses for not getting big men here when Farleigh Dickinson has a few. This team hasn't passed the eye test in all 4 years, not sure why it would suddenly in year 5 with another rebuild. That's not a moot point, it's logic.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=333241]Progress objectively, yes. But this is where nuance comes in. Anyone can schedule a butter soft OOC that Vitale and may other major pundits made fun of. If we scheduled like SHU for OOC we wouldn't even be close to the NCAA's. We won on talent alone because the discrepancy was so large. Once we started playing real teams we quickly went into a tailspin. Once again, zero excuses for not getting big men here when Farleigh Dickinson has a few. This team hasn't passed the eye test in all 4 years, not sure why it would suddenly in year 5 with another rebuild. That's not a moot point, it's logic.[/quote]

You can use all the logic that you want. What is moot is that firing a school legend who has made progress each season and just "danced" will not happen. Attendance was up in a major way this season and we were on the back pages. We are relevant again. We will need to see how it pans out next year...we have no other choice.

On the other hand, if Coach is not enjoying this and steps away, that is different. I just don't think he is ready to do that.

To be continued...
 
Suspect playing at SJ is an unhappy experience. Would not be surprised if a couple of frosh transfer
 
[quote="ZanMan" post=333262][quote="Mike Zaun" post=333241]Progress objectively, yes. But this is where nuance comes in. Anyone can schedule a butter soft OOC that Vitale and may other major pundits made fun of. If we scheduled like SHU for OOC we wouldn't even be close to the NCAA's. We won on talent alone because the discrepancy was so large. Once we started playing real teams we quickly went into a tailspin. Once again, zero excuses for not getting big men here when Farleigh Dickinson has a few. This team hasn't passed the eye test in all 4 years, not sure why it would suddenly in year 5 with another rebuild. That's not a moot point, it's logic.[/quote]

You can use all the logic that you want. What is moot is that firing a school legend who has made progress each season and just "danced" will not happen. Attendance was up in a major way this season and we were on the back pages. We are relevant again. We will need to see how it pans out next year...we have no other choice.

On the other hand, if Coach is not enjoying this and steps away, that is different. I just don't think he is ready to do that.

To be continued...[/quote]

Don't disagree with the "firing legend" point. They boxed themselves in a corner.

Stop with the relevant nonsense.. That is a crock, they are not relevant. Going 8-10 and finishing 7th and losing by 32 in the BE Tourney is not relevant. Losing 4x to Providence and DePaul is NOT being relevant. Getting to 8-10 as your best 4 year record is NOT BETTER than the previous staff going 10-8 last 2 years. Getting in as the last at large and getting whipped by a mediocre ASU team in a play-in game is not relevant.

Whiffing on every major local recruit is not evidence you are relevant. It is evidence no one cares. Ask Mike Vaccaro of the NY POST if he thinks SJU is relevant. He just wrote a piece saying SJU in retrospect didn't belong in the NCAA Tourney. Read this board. These are the people who go to the games. Ask them if SJU is "relevant."
 
So disappointed, saddened in the way this season shook out
It is truly a relief our games are over!
I sooo
Much over-estimated our talent and possibilities hmmm
I still have hope though for 2019-20
I’m
In the camp that says there has been ( slow steady ) progress
+ I think it’s great we have a new AD w Duke roots
Still sad though and I’m looking for diversions and today I found a diversion!
Came across a NY Post article dated
March 11, 2012 in which Jim Boeheim in an interview had these nice words to share about our prior coach:
“He’s my favorite coach. He competed as hard as anybody but he shook hands and never made excuses...I’m glad I had an opportunity to coach against him, played against him...there’s nobody I have more respect for ever - in coaching - than Lou Carnesecca!”
Brought a smile to my face - and a positive memory of what SJU was
And - “ oh the pain “ - with hope
What SJU can be once again.
Shake hands. No excuses.
All the best.
 
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[quote="Muse" post=333264]Suspect playing at SJ is an unhappy experience. Would not be surprised if a couple of frosh transfer[/quote]

Why they are "relevant" again didn't you hear? They made the back page of the Daily News after the Villanova game?

They "improved" every year, from 1-17 to 8-10 over 4 years? No way you can expect better than that?
 
[quote="ZanMan" post=333262][quote="Mike Zaun" post=333241]Progress objectively, yes. But this is where nuance comes in. Anyone can schedule a butter soft OOC that Vitale and may other major pundits made fun of. If we scheduled like SHU for OOC we wouldn't even be close to the NCAA's. We won on talent alone because the discrepancy was so large. Once we started playing real teams we quickly went into a tailspin. Once again, zero excuses for not getting big men here when Farleigh Dickinson has a few. This team hasn't passed the eye test in all 4 years, not sure why it would suddenly in year 5 with another rebuild. That's not a moot point, it's logic.[/quote]

You can use all the logic that you want. What is moot is that firing a school legend who has made progress each season and just "danced" will not happen. Attendance was up in a major way this season and we were on the back pages. We are relevant again. We will need to see how it pans out next year...we have no other choice.

On the other hand, if Coach is not enjoying this and steps away, that is different. I just don't think he is ready to do that.

To be continued...[/quote]

1. Attendance: If Mullin was the reason for attendance, then why couldn't we draw well in his first 3 years aside from a historic G'Town game with tradition? Because we were awful. The main reason fans came out in droves was due to the hype from the media telling us we were top 25 worthy and from our hot start. If you think we get the same crowds next year with no chance of a postseason and likely 9th or 10th in conference, you're almost certainly wrong. Our casual fans are going back to hibernating most likely. Even if they did come out in droves, so what? Is our object to make money or win games while making money? Look at the Knicks...they are loaded with money and get great crowds...but they suck every year. So what's the point? Either way, the attendance argument doesn't hold water IMO though it was nice to see many coming out.

2. Relevant again? This depends on what your definition of relevant is. If being relevant is 32 games under .500 in conference play, looking clueless on the court, and only having a shred of a chance of an NCAA berth every 4-5 years while bowing out immediately in the BET and finishing 7th in our best year, then I'd argue we don't want to be relevant then. A nuanced look will show you we are not nationally relevant. If we were, we'd be landing real recruits on the regular. Lavin brought nothing but 4 and 5 star kids here constantly and then they stopped coming because we sucked and they never got better. They will come if you build it. That's been proven. It's no accident we aren't getting good HS recruits on the reg. They see the facade.
 
[quote="ZanMan" post=333219]Sorry, but Bobby Hurley roaming the sidelines at the corner of Utopia and Union is not happening! Coach Mullin's season-by-season results have shown progress every year, whether you like it or not. Yes, this team should have been Sweet 16 bound. Some of that IS on Coach and staff, some of it IS NOT. Projecting that next season will be a disaster before it has even started is moot and will only furstrate you even more. Unfortunately, we have to let it play out and hope for the best.

Coach will be given next season and possibly the season after (assuming he wants it). If some of you don't like it, I suggest you find another team to root for.[/quote]

But you miss the point - Mooses point. It will be easier to get out now ie. with less turmoil, coming off a season where we were brought back to the tournament, then to play a disasterous season that will get very nasty.
 
I don't think the AD has any loyalty to Mullin and his staff. Mullin was resistant to make any changes last offseason. I don't think he'll have the same option this year. If Matt A does leave, they'll need two recruiters and hopefully a new AC with college coaching experience.
 
[quote="MSP710" post=333284]I don't think the AD has any loyalty to Mullin and his staff. Mullin was resistant to make any changes last offseason. I don't think he'll have the same option this year. If Matt A does leave, they'll need two recruiters and hopefully a new AC with college coaching experience.[/quote]

If Matt A leaves,although unlikely, I would not mind seeing a completely new staff of assistants
 
However unlikely, it should be noted that there is a pathway to having a competitive team next year. I would suggest that if Simon, Heron and Figueroa all return, we could be as good or better.

Again, I consider this an extreme long shot, but it is in the realm of possibility.
 
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[quote="P Simmons" post=333270]Not sure if this has been posted yet, but Mullin's not going anywhere:

Chris Mullin is ‘100 percent’ sure he’s remaining with St. John’s
https://nypost.com/2019/03/21/chris-mullin-is-100-percent-sure-hes-remaining-with-st-johns/

He would not be making such a definitive statement if he suspected his job was on the line.[/quote]

Smart move on Chris' part. It forces Cragg's hand to make a decision about Mullin's future. At some point, Cragg has to consider the options of an extension or making a change. It's tough enough to recruit under normal circumstances but even more so when you are perceived to be a lame duck coach. makes it easier for rival coaches to negatively recruit against us.
 
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[quote="JohnnyFan" post=333294]However unlikely, it should be noted that there is a pathway to having a competitive team next year. I would suggest that if Simon, Heron and Figueroa all return, we could be as good or better.

Again, I consider this an extreme long shot, but it is in the realm of possibility.[/quote]

Better? No way. Better chance of my hair growing back (I haven't had any since 1996)
 
The only thing that will get AD Cragg out of this mess is Mike Repole’s $$$$$$$$$.

Expect more of the same next year.
(Probably worse)
 
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