Astros
- Thread starter Moose
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[quote="SJ_NYC" post=372417]With all the resources that the Astros and Redsox - and they are still cheating - how do you feel if you are the KC Royals or some other smaller market team? Houston and Boston should be absolutely hammered over this.[/quote]
They should, but the Astros weren't, and I suspect the Red Sux will get off fairly lightly too.
They should, but the Astros weren't, and I suspect the Red Sux will get off fairly lightly too.
Spocky Ramone
Well-known member
[quote="bamafan" post=372415][quote="L J S A" post=372411][quote="bamafan" post=372409]If the Mets fire Beltran he will be one of the most successful managers in team history finishing at .500 with a record of 0-0.[/quote]
I actually think 0-0 is considered 1.000.[/quote]
It's actually .000 and I was going to put in a disclaimer to my original post because I knew it would be caught but though it would ruin the joke. Consider the joke ruined. Thanks to all who participated. :lol:[/quote]
Either way...
UNDEFEATED!
I actually think 0-0 is considered 1.000.[/quote]
It's actually .000 and I was going to put in a disclaimer to my original post because I knew it would be caught but though it would ruin the joke. Consider the joke ruined. Thanks to all who participated. :lol:[/quote]
Either way...
UNDEFEATED!
beast of the east
Active member
[quote="bamafan" post=372415][quote="L J S A" post=372411][quote="bamafan" post=372409]If the Mets fire Beltran he will be one of the most successful managers in team history finishing at .500 with a record of 0-0.[/quote]
I actually think 0-0 is considered 1.000.[/quote]
It's actually .000 and I was going to put in a disclaimer to my original post because I knew it would be caught but though it would ruin the joke. Consider the joke ruined. Thanks to all who participated. :lol:[/quote]
I'm always too literal but isn't a zero in the denominator infinity?
I actually think 0-0 is considered 1.000.[/quote]
It's actually .000 and I was going to put in a disclaimer to my original post because I knew it would be caught but though it would ruin the joke. Consider the joke ruined. Thanks to all who participated. :lol:[/quote]
I'm always too literal but isn't a zero in the denominator infinity?
Didn't go back and read all the posts in this thread, and I have to admit I haven't read a ton on this whole cheating scandal, but it seems to me that the reaction is way overboard. I mean, are people upset that the Stros and Sox stole the signs? Or are they upset that they used technology to steal the signs? Because as someone that played a lot of organized baseball as a kid, it was well know that everyone tried to steal everyone else's signs. Catcher's signs, 3rd base coach signs, everyone! Hell it was part of the game. Nothing has changed about it. That's why the signs are so complicated. That's why pitchers cover their mouth with their glove when talking to a catcher or pitching coach on the mound, they know they're being watched. As far as I'm concerned, everyone does it who can do it. So again I ask the question: are people so upset by this because they stole signs, or because they used technology to steal signs?
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beast of the east
Active member
[quote="Monte" post=372882]Didn't go back and read all the posts in this thread, and I have to admit I haven't read a ton on this whole cheating scandal, but it seems to me that the reaction is way overboard. I mean, are people upset that the Stros and Sox stole the signs? Or are they upset that they used technology to steal the signs? Because as someone that played a lot of organized baseball as a kid, it was well know that everyone tried to steal everyone else's signs. Catcher's signs, 3rd base coach signs, everyone! Hell it was part of the game. Nothing has changed about it. That's why the signs are so complicated. That's why pitchers cover their mouth with their glove when talking to a catcher or pitching coach on the mound, they know they're being watched. As far as I'm concerned, everyone does it who can do it. So again I ask the question: are people so upset by this because they stole signs, or because they used technology to steal signs?[/quote]
Monte, there is a big difference between baserunners trying to steal signs and relaying it to the catcher, and a team doing this using technology or other means.
Little leaguers couldnt hit a big fastball with a tail or a curveball if the pitcher announced it. High schooler for the matter either. Major leaguers though can crush fastballs all day if they know they are coming, lay off a split fingered sinker that's going to fall out of the strike zone, and be ready for a curve. It's why batter who are exceptionally good at guessing do a lot better. This is cheating at its worst. In basketball a team can know the other team's plays and mostly the better team wins anyway. In football, if you know plays, it can have a dramatic effect on the outcome. Baseball also.
[URL]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-feb-04-sp-20895-story.html[/URL]
Monte, there is a big difference between baserunners trying to steal signs and relaying it to the catcher, and a team doing this using technology or other means.
Little leaguers couldnt hit a big fastball with a tail or a curveball if the pitcher announced it. High schooler for the matter either. Major leaguers though can crush fastballs all day if they know they are coming, lay off a split fingered sinker that's going to fall out of the strike zone, and be ready for a curve. It's why batter who are exceptionally good at guessing do a lot better. This is cheating at its worst. In basketball a team can know the other team's plays and mostly the better team wins anyway. In football, if you know plays, it can have a dramatic effect on the outcome. Baseball also.
[URL]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-feb-04-sp-20895-story.html[/URL]
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[quote="Beast of the East" post=372886][quote="Monte" post=372882]Didn't go back and read all the posts in this thread, and I have to admit I haven't read a ton on this whole cheating scandal, but it seems to me that the reaction is way overboard. I mean, are people upset that the Stros and Sox stole the signs? Or are they upset that they used technology to steal the signs? Because as someone that played a lot of organized baseball as a kid, it was well know that everyone tried to steal everyone else's signs. Catcher's signs, 3rd base coach signs, everyone! Hell it was part of the game. Nothing has changed about it. That's why the signs are so complicated. That's why pitchers cover their mouth with their glove when talking to a catcher or pitching coach on the mound, they know they're being watched. As far as I'm concerned, everyone does it who can do it. So again I ask the question: are people so upset by this because they stole signs, or because they used technology to steal signs?[/quote]
Monte, there is a big difference between baserunners trying to steal signs and relaying it to the catcher, and a team doing this using technology or other means.
Little leaguers couldnt hit a big fastball with a tail or a curveball if the pitcher announced it. High schooler for the matter either. Major leaguers though can crush fastballs all day if they know they are coming, lay off a split fingered sinker that's going to fall out of the strike zone, and be ready for a curve. It's why batter who are exceptionally good at guessing do a lot better. This is cheating at its worst. In basketball a team can know the other team's plays and mostly the better team wins anyway. In football, if you know plays, it can have a dramatic effect on the outcome. Baseball also.
[URL]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-feb-04-sp-20895-story.html[/URL][/quote]
Agreed Beast.
This couldn't be a bigger cheating scandal. Yes, teams have alway tried to steal signs or determine if someone is tipping pitches. That's part of the game, and if the batter can pick that up in the box and put it to use because a pitcher holds his glove at a different angle when he throws a certain pitch, more power to him. If a runner at 2nd wants to try to let a batter know what pitch was called...go for it. The pitcher has remedies for that, including throwing at the batters head.
Monte, what the Astros did was use technology to decipher the signals in real time and then convey that information to the batter in real time so he could act on that pitch accordingly. That's the MLB equivalent of the NFL home team having an open mic between their coaches and QB the whole game and the opposing team having no radio communications at all.
If that's going to be acceptable, then why bother playing?
Monte, there is a big difference between baserunners trying to steal signs and relaying it to the catcher, and a team doing this using technology or other means.
Little leaguers couldnt hit a big fastball with a tail or a curveball if the pitcher announced it. High schooler for the matter either. Major leaguers though can crush fastballs all day if they know they are coming, lay off a split fingered sinker that's going to fall out of the strike zone, and be ready for a curve. It's why batter who are exceptionally good at guessing do a lot better. This is cheating at its worst. In basketball a team can know the other team's plays and mostly the better team wins anyway. In football, if you know plays, it can have a dramatic effect on the outcome. Baseball also.
[URL]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-feb-04-sp-20895-story.html[/URL][/quote]
Agreed Beast.
This couldn't be a bigger cheating scandal. Yes, teams have alway tried to steal signs or determine if someone is tipping pitches. That's part of the game, and if the batter can pick that up in the box and put it to use because a pitcher holds his glove at a different angle when he throws a certain pitch, more power to him. If a runner at 2nd wants to try to let a batter know what pitch was called...go for it. The pitcher has remedies for that, including throwing at the batters head.
Monte, what the Astros did was use technology to decipher the signals in real time and then convey that information to the batter in real time so he could act on that pitch accordingly. That's the MLB equivalent of the NFL home team having an open mic between their coaches and QB the whole game and the opposing team having no radio communications at all.
If that's going to be acceptable, then why bother playing?
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JackofVirginia
Active member
[quote="Beast of the East" post=363161]This is just a higher tech version of how the Giants came back from 14 or 15 games back in 1951, capped by the "Shot heard 'round the world", Bobby Thompson's home run against Ralph Branca.
Bobby Thompson (s Staten Islander, I just learned while visiting the incredible CYO facility there), knew what Branca was doing to throw. The Giants had a lookout in the scoreboard with binoculars, who would signals the bullpen, who had a buzzer to the dugout indicating the pitch. The third base coach, Leo Druchoer would then signal the batter, perfected all to a couple of seconds.
Branca, who was continually booed at public appearances for many, many years, found out about the cheating in 1954. Despite being one of the great young National league pitchers, he tried to come back from an arm injury too soon to shake the label of "bum", and damaged his arm. He was discarded to Cleveland, where the backup catcher from the Giants had also landed, and who told him of the cheating. Branca, not wanting to be labeled a whiner, kept his mouth shit for over 50 years until a book about how the Giants stole the pennant was published. He tried to get MLB to invalidate the pennant and give the Dodgers NL championship rings, which they would not do.
MLB should act quickly to strip the Astros of their accomplishments. This is systemic cheating endorsed by the organization, not a baserunner trying to steal a sign and relaying it[/quote]
I broke down and cried after that home run. Prior to Thompson's shot my brother was handing out crying towels to our N.Y.Giant friends. Oh well!
Bobby Thompson (s Staten Islander, I just learned while visiting the incredible CYO facility there), knew what Branca was doing to throw. The Giants had a lookout in the scoreboard with binoculars, who would signals the bullpen, who had a buzzer to the dugout indicating the pitch. The third base coach, Leo Druchoer would then signal the batter, perfected all to a couple of seconds.
Branca, who was continually booed at public appearances for many, many years, found out about the cheating in 1954. Despite being one of the great young National league pitchers, he tried to come back from an arm injury too soon to shake the label of "bum", and damaged his arm. He was discarded to Cleveland, where the backup catcher from the Giants had also landed, and who told him of the cheating. Branca, not wanting to be labeled a whiner, kept his mouth shit for over 50 years until a book about how the Giants stole the pennant was published. He tried to get MLB to invalidate the pennant and give the Dodgers NL championship rings, which they would not do.
MLB should act quickly to strip the Astros of their accomplishments. This is systemic cheating endorsed by the organization, not a baserunner trying to steal a sign and relaying it[/quote]
I broke down and cried after that home run. Prior to Thompson's shot my brother was handing out crying towels to our N.Y.Giant friends. Oh well!
[quote="SJUFAN2" post=372890][quote="Beast of the East" post=372886][quote="Monte" post=372882]Didn't go back and read all the posts in this thread, and I have to admit I haven't read a ton on this whole cheating scandal, but it seems to me that the reaction is way overboard. I mean, are people upset that the Stros and Sox stole the signs? Or are they upset that they used technology to steal the signs? Because as someone that played a lot of organized baseball as a kid, it was well know that everyone tried to steal everyone else's signs. Catcher's signs, 3rd base coach signs, everyone! Hell it was part of the game. Nothing has changed about it. That's why the signs are so complicated. That's why pitchers cover their mouth with their glove when talking to a catcher or pitching coach on the mound, they know they're being watched. As far as I'm concerned, everyone does it who can do it. So again I ask the question: are people so upset by this because they stole signs, or because they used technology to steal signs?[/quote]
Monte, there is a big difference between baserunners trying to steal signs and relaying it to the catcher, and a team doing this using technology or other means.
Little leaguers couldnt hit a big fastball with a tail or a curveball if the pitcher announced it. High schooler for the matter either. Major leaguers though can crush fastballs all day if they know they are coming, lay off a split fingered sinker that's going to fall out of the strike zone, and be ready for a curve. It's why batter who are exceptionally good at guessing do a lot better. This is cheating at its worst. In basketball a team can know the other team's plays and mostly the better team wins anyway. In football, if you know plays, it can have a dramatic effect on the outcome. Baseball also.
[URL]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-feb-04-sp-20895-story.html[/URL][/quote]
Agreed Beast.
This couldn't be a bigger cheating scandal. Yes, teams have alway tried to steal signs or determine if someone is tipping pitches. That's part of the game, and if the batter can pick that up in the box and put it to use because a pitcher holds his glove at a different angle when he throws a certain pitch, more power to him. If a runner at 2nd wants to try to let a batter know what pitch was called...go for it. The pitcher has remedies for that, including throwing at the batters head.
Monte, what the Astros did was use technology to decipher the signals in real time and then convey that information to the batter in real time so he could act on that pitch accordingly. That's the MLB equivalent of the NFL home team having an open mic between their coaches and QB the whole game and the opposing team having no radio communications at all.
If that's going to be acceptable, then why bother playing?[/quote]
Not disagreeing, just trying to understand everyone's mindset here. So stealing signs is OK, as long as it's not done with technology. Is that it? And yes, I understand there is a difference. But in a game which has had cheating going on since it's inception, I'm wondering why everyone is so appalled and outraged over this morally?
Monte, there is a big difference between baserunners trying to steal signs and relaying it to the catcher, and a team doing this using technology or other means.
Little leaguers couldnt hit a big fastball with a tail or a curveball if the pitcher announced it. High schooler for the matter either. Major leaguers though can crush fastballs all day if they know they are coming, lay off a split fingered sinker that's going to fall out of the strike zone, and be ready for a curve. It's why batter who are exceptionally good at guessing do a lot better. This is cheating at its worst. In basketball a team can know the other team's plays and mostly the better team wins anyway. In football, if you know plays, it can have a dramatic effect on the outcome. Baseball also.
[URL]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-feb-04-sp-20895-story.html[/URL][/quote]
Agreed Beast.
This couldn't be a bigger cheating scandal. Yes, teams have alway tried to steal signs or determine if someone is tipping pitches. That's part of the game, and if the batter can pick that up in the box and put it to use because a pitcher holds his glove at a different angle when he throws a certain pitch, more power to him. If a runner at 2nd wants to try to let a batter know what pitch was called...go for it. The pitcher has remedies for that, including throwing at the batters head.
Monte, what the Astros did was use technology to decipher the signals in real time and then convey that information to the batter in real time so he could act on that pitch accordingly. That's the MLB equivalent of the NFL home team having an open mic between their coaches and QB the whole game and the opposing team having no radio communications at all.
If that's going to be acceptable, then why bother playing?[/quote]
Not disagreeing, just trying to understand everyone's mindset here. So stealing signs is OK, as long as it's not done with technology. Is that it? And yes, I understand there is a difference. But in a game which has had cheating going on since it's inception, I'm wondering why everyone is so appalled and outraged over this morally?
[quote="Monte" post=372899][quote="SJUFAN2" post=372890][quote="Beast of the East" post=372886][quote="Monte" post=372882]Didn't go back and read all the posts in this thread, and I have to admit I haven't read a ton on this whole cheating scandal, but it seems to me that the reaction is way overboard. I mean, are people upset that the Stros and Sox stole the signs? Or are they upset that they used technology to steal the signs? Because as someone that played a lot of organized baseball as a kid, it was well know that everyone tried to steal everyone else's signs. Catcher's signs, 3rd base coach signs, everyone! Hell it was part of the game. Nothing has changed about it. That's why the signs are so complicated. That's why pitchers cover their mouth with their glove when talking to a catcher or pitching coach on the mound, they know they're being watched. As far as I'm concerned, everyone does it who can do it. So again I ask the question: are people so upset by this because they stole signs, or because they used technology to steal signs?[/quote]
Monte, there is a big difference between baserunners trying to steal signs and relaying it to the catcher, and a team doing this using technology or other means.
Little leaguers couldnt hit a big fastball with a tail or a curveball if the pitcher announced it. High schooler for the matter either. Major leaguers though can crush fastballs all day if they know they are coming, lay off a split fingered sinker that's going to fall out of the strike zone, and be ready for a curve. It's why batter who are exceptionally good at guessing do a lot better. This is cheating at its worst. In basketball a team can know the other team's plays and mostly the better team wins anyway. In football, if you know plays, it can have a dramatic effect on the outcome. Baseball also.
[URL]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-feb-04-sp-20895-story.html[/URL][/quote]
Agreed Beast.
This couldn't be a bigger cheating scandal. Yes, teams have alway tried to steal signs or determine if someone is tipping pitches. That's part of the game, and if the batter can pick that up in the box and put it to use because a pitcher holds his glove at a different angle when he throws a certain pitch, more power to him. If a runner at 2nd wants to try to let a batter know what pitch was called...go for it. The pitcher has remedies for that, including throwing at the batters head.
Monte, what the Astros did was use technology to decipher the signals in real time and then convey that information to the batter in real time so he could act on that pitch accordingly. That's the MLB equivalent of the NFL home team having an open mic between their coaches and QB the whole game and the opposing team having no radio communications at all.
If that's going to be acceptable, then why bother playing?[/quote]
Not disagreeing, just trying to understand everyone's mindset here. So stealing signs is OK, as long as it's not done with technology. Is that it? And yes, I understand there is a difference. But in a game which has had cheating going on since it's inception, I'm wondering why everyone is so appalled and outraged over this morally?[/quote]
I can't speak for everyone else, but my mindset is that if you use technology to steal signs or communicate with players on the field during the game, you are cheating. The league doesn't have a rule against a player on 2nd base trying to tip a batter to a pitch, but they DO have a rule against using technology to accomplish that.
Perhaps this will put things in better context for you. Think of the two guys playing blackjack as the Astros and De Niro as the rest of the universe...
Monte, there is a big difference between baserunners trying to steal signs and relaying it to the catcher, and a team doing this using technology or other means.
Little leaguers couldnt hit a big fastball with a tail or a curveball if the pitcher announced it. High schooler for the matter either. Major leaguers though can crush fastballs all day if they know they are coming, lay off a split fingered sinker that's going to fall out of the strike zone, and be ready for a curve. It's why batter who are exceptionally good at guessing do a lot better. This is cheating at its worst. In basketball a team can know the other team's plays and mostly the better team wins anyway. In football, if you know plays, it can have a dramatic effect on the outcome. Baseball also.
[URL]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-feb-04-sp-20895-story.html[/URL][/quote]
Agreed Beast.
This couldn't be a bigger cheating scandal. Yes, teams have alway tried to steal signs or determine if someone is tipping pitches. That's part of the game, and if the batter can pick that up in the box and put it to use because a pitcher holds his glove at a different angle when he throws a certain pitch, more power to him. If a runner at 2nd wants to try to let a batter know what pitch was called...go for it. The pitcher has remedies for that, including throwing at the batters head.
Monte, what the Astros did was use technology to decipher the signals in real time and then convey that information to the batter in real time so he could act on that pitch accordingly. That's the MLB equivalent of the NFL home team having an open mic between their coaches and QB the whole game and the opposing team having no radio communications at all.
If that's going to be acceptable, then why bother playing?[/quote]
Not disagreeing, just trying to understand everyone's mindset here. So stealing signs is OK, as long as it's not done with technology. Is that it? And yes, I understand there is a difference. But in a game which has had cheating going on since it's inception, I'm wondering why everyone is so appalled and outraged over this morally?[/quote]
I can't speak for everyone else, but my mindset is that if you use technology to steal signs or communicate with players on the field during the game, you are cheating. The league doesn't have a rule against a player on 2nd base trying to tip a batter to a pitch, but they DO have a rule against using technology to accomplish that.
Perhaps this will put things in better context for you. Think of the two guys playing blackjack as the Astros and De Niro as the rest of the universe...
[quote="SJUFAN2" post=372903][quote="Monte" post=372899][quote="SJUFAN2" post=372890][quote="Beast of the East" post=372886][quote="Monte" post=372882]Didn't go back and read all the posts in this thread, and I have to admit I haven't read a ton on this whole cheating scandal, but it seems to me that the reaction is way overboard. I mean, are people upset that the Stros and Sox stole the signs? Or are they upset that they used technology to steal the signs? Because as someone that played a lot of organized baseball as a kid, it was well know that everyone tried to steal everyone else's signs. Catcher's signs, 3rd base coach signs, everyone! Hell it was part of the game. Nothing has changed about it. That's why the signs are so complicated. That's why pitchers cover their mouth with their glove when talking to a catcher or pitching coach on the mound, they know they're being watched. As far as I'm concerned, everyone does it who can do it. So again I ask the question: are people so upset by this because they stole signs, or because they used technology to steal signs?[/quote]
Monte, there is a big difference between baserunners trying to steal signs and relaying it to the catcher, and a team doing this using technology or other means.
Little leaguers couldnt hit a big fastball with a tail or a curveball if the pitcher announced it. High schooler for the matter either. Major leaguers though can crush fastballs all day if they know they are coming, lay off a split fingered sinker that's going to fall out of the strike zone, and be ready for a curve. It's why batter who are exceptionally good at guessing do a lot better. This is cheating at its worst. In basketball a team can know the other team's plays and mostly the better team wins anyway. In football, if you know plays, it can have a dramatic effect on the outcome. Baseball also.
[URL]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-feb-04-sp-20895-story.html[/URL][/quote]
Agreed Beast.
This couldn't be a bigger cheating scandal. Yes, teams have alway tried to steal signs or determine if someone is tipping pitches. That's part of the game, and if the batter can pick that up in the box and put it to use because a pitcher holds his glove at a different angle when he throws a certain pitch, more power to him. If a runner at 2nd wants to try to let a batter know what pitch was called...go for it. The pitcher has remedies for that, including throwing at the batters head.
Monte, what the Astros did was use technology to decipher the signals in real time and then convey that information to the batter in real time so he could act on that pitch accordingly. That's the MLB equivalent of the NFL home team having an open mic between their coaches and QB the whole game and the opposing team having no radio communications at all.
If that's going to be acceptable, then why bother playing?[/quote]
Not disagreeing, just trying to understand everyone's mindset here. So stealing signs is OK, as long as it's not done with technology. Is that it? And yes, I understand there is a difference. But in a game which has had cheating going on since it's inception, I'm wondering why everyone is so appalled and outraged over this morally?[/quote]
I can't speak for everyone else, but my mindset is that if you use technology to steal signs or communicate with players on the field during the game, you are cheating. The league doesn't have a rule against a player on 2nd base trying to tip a batter to a pitch, but they DO have a rule against using technology to accomplish that.
Perhaps this will put things in better context for you. Think of the two guys playing blackjack as the Astros and De Niro as the rest of the universe...
[/quote]
Again, you are drawing an line based on your ethical standards. Clearly you have higher ethical standards then I do, because while I think this is wrong, I am not outraged about it like so many others are. And team owners are so full of crap. I happen to completely agree with Francesca here, not something I do much:
[URL]https://www.nj.com/yankees/202...hining-about-astros-sign-stealing.html?fbclid[/URL]=IwAR0AwTGTyTHFQveiLI4GyneFPIQgD6SJMFoqbIbcduDDSYJRGJ8Cd2rkCd0
Monte, there is a big difference between baserunners trying to steal signs and relaying it to the catcher, and a team doing this using technology or other means.
Little leaguers couldnt hit a big fastball with a tail or a curveball if the pitcher announced it. High schooler for the matter either. Major leaguers though can crush fastballs all day if they know they are coming, lay off a split fingered sinker that's going to fall out of the strike zone, and be ready for a curve. It's why batter who are exceptionally good at guessing do a lot better. This is cheating at its worst. In basketball a team can know the other team's plays and mostly the better team wins anyway. In football, if you know plays, it can have a dramatic effect on the outcome. Baseball also.
[URL]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-feb-04-sp-20895-story.html[/URL][/quote]
Agreed Beast.
This couldn't be a bigger cheating scandal. Yes, teams have alway tried to steal signs or determine if someone is tipping pitches. That's part of the game, and if the batter can pick that up in the box and put it to use because a pitcher holds his glove at a different angle when he throws a certain pitch, more power to him. If a runner at 2nd wants to try to let a batter know what pitch was called...go for it. The pitcher has remedies for that, including throwing at the batters head.
Monte, what the Astros did was use technology to decipher the signals in real time and then convey that information to the batter in real time so he could act on that pitch accordingly. That's the MLB equivalent of the NFL home team having an open mic between their coaches and QB the whole game and the opposing team having no radio communications at all.
If that's going to be acceptable, then why bother playing?[/quote]
Not disagreeing, just trying to understand everyone's mindset here. So stealing signs is OK, as long as it's not done with technology. Is that it? And yes, I understand there is a difference. But in a game which has had cheating going on since it's inception, I'm wondering why everyone is so appalled and outraged over this morally?[/quote]
I can't speak for everyone else, but my mindset is that if you use technology to steal signs or communicate with players on the field during the game, you are cheating. The league doesn't have a rule against a player on 2nd base trying to tip a batter to a pitch, but they DO have a rule against using technology to accomplish that.
Perhaps this will put things in better context for you. Think of the two guys playing blackjack as the Astros and De Niro as the rest of the universe...
[/quote]
Again, you are drawing an line based on your ethical standards. Clearly you have higher ethical standards then I do, because while I think this is wrong, I am not outraged about it like so many others are. And team owners are so full of crap. I happen to completely agree with Francesca here, not something I do much:
[URL]https://www.nj.com/yankees/202...hining-about-astros-sign-stealing.html?fbclid[/URL]=IwAR0AwTGTyTHFQveiLI4GyneFPIQgD6SJMFoqbIbcduDDSYJRGJ8Cd2rkCd0
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beast of the east
Active member
[quote="Monte" post=372899][quote="SJUFAN2" post=372890][quote="Beast of the East" post=372886][quote="Monte" post=372882]Didn't go back and read all the posts in this thread, and I have to admit I haven't read a ton on this whole cheating scandal, but it seems to me that the reaction is way overboard. I mean, are people upset that the Stros and Sox stole the signs? Or are they upset that they used technology to steal the signs? Because as someone that played a lot of organized baseball as a kid, it was well know that everyone tried to steal everyone else's signs. Catcher's signs, 3rd base coach signs, everyone! Hell it was part of the game. Nothing has changed about it. That's why the signs are so complicated. That's why pitchers cover their mouth with their glove when talking to a catcher or pitching coach on the mound, they know they're being watched. As far as I'm concerned, everyone does it who can do it. So again I ask the question: are people so upset by this because they stole signs, or because they used technology to steal signs?[/quote]
Monte, there is a big difference between baserunners trying to steal signs and relaying it to the catcher, and a team doing this using technology or other means.
Little leaguers couldnt hit a big fastball with a tail or a curveball if the pitcher announced it. High schooler for the matter either. Major leaguers though can crush fastballs all day if they know they are coming, lay off a split fingered sinker that's going to fall out of the strike zone, and be ready for a curve. It's why batter who are exceptionally good at guessing do a lot better. This is cheating at its worst. In basketball a team can know the other team's plays and mostly the better team wins anyway. In football, if you know plays, it can have a dramatic effect on the outcome. Baseball also.
[URL]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-feb-04-sp-20895-story.html[/URL][/quote]
Agreed Beast.
This couldn't be a bigger cheating scandal. Yes, teams have alway tried to steal signs or determine if someone is tipping pitches. That's part of the game, and if the batter can pick that up in the box and put it to use because a pitcher holds his glove at a different angle when he throws a certain pitch, more power to him. If a runner at 2nd wants to try to let a batter know what pitch was called...go for it. The pitcher has remedies for that, including throwing at the batters head.
Monte, what the Astros did was use technology to decipher the signals in real time and then convey that information to the batter in real time so he could act on that pitch accordingly. That's the MLB equivalent of the NFL home team having an open mic between their coaches and QB the whole game and the opposing team having no radio communications at all.
If that's going to be acceptable, then why bother playing?[/quote]
Not disagreeing, just trying to understand everyone's mindset here. So stealing signs is OK, as long as it's not done with technology. Is that it? And yes, I understand there is a difference. But in a game which has had cheating going on since it's inception, I'm wondering why everyone is so appalled and outraged over this morally?[/quote]
Here's what happens when a batter tries to steal a sign [attachment=1263]roseboro.jpg[/attachment]
Monte, there is a big difference between baserunners trying to steal signs and relaying it to the catcher, and a team doing this using technology or other means.
Little leaguers couldnt hit a big fastball with a tail or a curveball if the pitcher announced it. High schooler for the matter either. Major leaguers though can crush fastballs all day if they know they are coming, lay off a split fingered sinker that's going to fall out of the strike zone, and be ready for a curve. It's why batter who are exceptionally good at guessing do a lot better. This is cheating at its worst. In basketball a team can know the other team's plays and mostly the better team wins anyway. In football, if you know plays, it can have a dramatic effect on the outcome. Baseball also.
[URL]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-feb-04-sp-20895-story.html[/URL][/quote]
Agreed Beast.
This couldn't be a bigger cheating scandal. Yes, teams have alway tried to steal signs or determine if someone is tipping pitches. That's part of the game, and if the batter can pick that up in the box and put it to use because a pitcher holds his glove at a different angle when he throws a certain pitch, more power to him. If a runner at 2nd wants to try to let a batter know what pitch was called...go for it. The pitcher has remedies for that, including throwing at the batters head.
Monte, what the Astros did was use technology to decipher the signals in real time and then convey that information to the batter in real time so he could act on that pitch accordingly. That's the MLB equivalent of the NFL home team having an open mic between their coaches and QB the whole game and the opposing team having no radio communications at all.
If that's going to be acceptable, then why bother playing?[/quote]
Not disagreeing, just trying to understand everyone's mindset here. So stealing signs is OK, as long as it's not done with technology. Is that it? And yes, I understand there is a difference. But in a game which has had cheating going on since it's inception, I'm wondering why everyone is so appalled and outraged over this morally?[/quote]
Here's what happens when a batter tries to steal a sign [attachment=1263]roseboro.jpg[/attachment]
[quote="Monte" post=372907] Again, you are drawing an line based on your ethical standards. Clearly you have higher ethical standards then I do, because while I think this is wrong, I am not outraged about it like so many others are. And team owners are so full of crap. I happen to completely agree with Francesca here, not something I do much:
[URL]https://www.nj.com/yankees/202...hining-about-astros-sign-stealing.html?fbclid[/URL]=IwAR0AwTGTyTHFQveiLI4GyneFPIQgD6SJMFoqbIbcduDDSYJRGJ8Cd2rkCd0[/quote]
Don't get me started on steroid users...:cheer:
[URL]https://www.nj.com/yankees/202...hining-about-astros-sign-stealing.html?fbclid[/URL]=IwAR0AwTGTyTHFQveiLI4GyneFPIQgD6SJMFoqbIbcduDDSYJRGJ8Cd2rkCd0[/quote]
Don't get me started on steroid users...:cheer:
[quote="Monte" post=372907]
Again, you are drawing an line based on your ethical standards. Clearly you have higher ethical standards then I do, because while I think this is wrong, I am not outraged about it like so many others are. And team owners are so full of crap. I happen to completely agree with Francesca here, not something I do much:
[URL]https://www.nj.com/yankees/202...hining-about-astros-sign-stealing.html?fbclid[/URL]=IwAR0AwTGTyTHFQveiLI4GyneFPIQgD6SJMFoqbIbcduDDSYJRGJ8Cd2rkCd0[/quote]
Clearly we aren't going to agree on this so I'll leave it with this: Not all cheating is equal.
If I do 100mph on the freeway and get a ticket I'm not likely losing my licence for a first offense.
If I do 100mph past an elementary school when school is letting out, I'm not only losing my licence but I could get jail time.
Both are crimes. Even identical acts at a basic level. But one is far worse than the other, no?
Again, you are drawing an line based on your ethical standards. Clearly you have higher ethical standards then I do, because while I think this is wrong, I am not outraged about it like so many others are. And team owners are so full of crap. I happen to completely agree with Francesca here, not something I do much:
[URL]https://www.nj.com/yankees/202...hining-about-astros-sign-stealing.html?fbclid[/URL]=IwAR0AwTGTyTHFQveiLI4GyneFPIQgD6SJMFoqbIbcduDDSYJRGJ8Cd2rkCd0[/quote]
Clearly we aren't going to agree on this so I'll leave it with this: Not all cheating is equal.
If I do 100mph on the freeway and get a ticket I'm not likely losing my licence for a first offense.
If I do 100mph past an elementary school when school is letting out, I'm not only losing my licence but I could get jail time.
Both are crimes. Even identical acts at a basic level. But one is far worse than the other, no?
[quote="SJUFAN2" post=372915][quote="Monte" post=372907]
Again, you are drawing an line based on your ethical standards. Clearly you have higher ethical standards then I do, because while I think this is wrong, I am not outraged about it like so many others are. And team owners are so full of crap. I happen to completely agree with Francesca here, not something I do much:
[URL]https://www.nj.com/yankees/202...hining-about-astros-sign-stealing.html?fbclid[/URL]=IwAR0AwTGTyTHFQveiLI4GyneFPIQgD6SJMFoqbIbcduDDSYJRGJ8Cd2rkCd0[/quote]
Clearly we aren't going to agree on this so I'll leave it with this: Not all cheating is equal.
If I do 100mph on the freeway and get a ticket I'm not likely losing my licence for a first offense.
If I do 100mph past an elementary school when school is letting out, I'm not only losing my licence but I could get jail time.
Both are crimes. Even identical acts at a basic level. But one is far worse than the other, no?[/quote]
Once you ask me a question you don’t “leave it with this” lol. Agree completely that there are degrees of cheating, as well as all types of cheating. Yes using technology is a whole other level, and yes there should be punishment. But in a game were cheating of all different types and levels has been rampant since it’s inception, I just don’t get the outrage over this. And this ain’t new by any stretch. Not sure if this has been posted before:
[URL]https://www.espn.com/mlb/story...-russa-had-sign-stealing-system-white-sox-80s[/URL]
Again, you are drawing an line based on your ethical standards. Clearly you have higher ethical standards then I do, because while I think this is wrong, I am not outraged about it like so many others are. And team owners are so full of crap. I happen to completely agree with Francesca here, not something I do much:
[URL]https://www.nj.com/yankees/202...hining-about-astros-sign-stealing.html?fbclid[/URL]=IwAR0AwTGTyTHFQveiLI4GyneFPIQgD6SJMFoqbIbcduDDSYJRGJ8Cd2rkCd0[/quote]
Clearly we aren't going to agree on this so I'll leave it with this: Not all cheating is equal.
If I do 100mph on the freeway and get a ticket I'm not likely losing my licence for a first offense.
If I do 100mph past an elementary school when school is letting out, I'm not only losing my licence but I could get jail time.
Both are crimes. Even identical acts at a basic level. But one is far worse than the other, no?[/quote]
Once you ask me a question you don’t “leave it with this” lol. Agree completely that there are degrees of cheating, as well as all types of cheating. Yes using technology is a whole other level, and yes there should be punishment. But in a game were cheating of all different types and levels has been rampant since it’s inception, I just don’t get the outrage over this. And this ain’t new by any stretch. Not sure if this has been posted before:
[URL]https://www.espn.com/mlb/story...-russa-had-sign-stealing-system-white-sox-80s[/URL]
Last edited:
[quote="Beast of the East" post=372911][quote="Monte" post=372899][quote="SJUFAN2" post=372890][quote="Beast of the East" post=372886][quote="Monte" post=372882]Didn't go back and read all the posts in this thread, and I have to admit I haven't read a ton on this whole cheating scandal, but it seems to me that the reaction is way overboard. I mean, are people upset that the Stros and Sox stole the signs? Or are they upset that they used technology to steal the signs? Because as someone that played a lot of organized baseball as a kid, it was well know that everyone tried to steal everyone else's signs. Catcher's signs, 3rd base coach signs, everyone! Hell it was part of the game. Nothing has changed about it. That's why the signs are so complicated. That's why pitchers cover their mouth with their glove when talking to a catcher or pitching coach on the mound, they know they're being watched. As far as I'm concerned, everyone does it who can do it. So again I ask the question: are people so upset by this because they stole signs, or because they used technology to steal signs?[/quote]
Monte, there is a big difference between baserunners trying to steal signs and relaying it to the catcher, and a team doing this using technology or other means.
Little leaguers couldnt hit a big fastball with a tail or a curveball if the pitcher announced it. High schooler for the matter either. Major leaguers though can crush fastballs all day if they know they are coming, lay off a split fingered sinker that's going to fall out of the strike zone, and be ready for a curve. It's why batter who are exceptionally good at guessing do a lot better. This is cheating at its worst. In basketball a team can know the other team's plays and mostly the better team wins anyway. In football, if you know plays, it can have a dramatic effect on the outcome. Baseball also.
[URL]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-feb-04-sp-20895-story.html[/URL][/quote]
Agreed Beast.
This couldn't be a bigger cheating scandal. Yes, teams have alway tried to steal signs or determine if someone is tipping pitches. That's part of the game, and if the batter can pick that up in the box and put it to use because a pitcher holds his glove at a different angle when he throws a certain pitch, more power to him. If a runner at 2nd wants to try to let a batter know what pitch was called...go for it. The pitcher has remedies for that, including throwing at the batters head.
Monte, what the Astros did was use technology to decipher the signals in real time and then convey that information to the batter in real time so he could act on that pitch accordingly. That's the MLB equivalent of the NFL home team having an open mic between their coaches and QB the whole game and the opposing team having no radio communications at all.
If that's going to be acceptable, then why bother playing?[/quote]
Not disagreeing, just trying to understand everyone's mindset here. So stealing signs is OK, as long as it's not done with technology. Is that it? And yes, I understand there is a difference. But in a game which has had cheating going on since it's inception, I'm wondering why everyone is so appalled and outraged over this morally?[/quote]
Here's what happens when a batter tries to steal a sign [attachment=1263]roseboro.jpg[/attachment][/quote]
Baseball policing its own. Beefsteak dinner tonight!
Monte, there is a big difference between baserunners trying to steal signs and relaying it to the catcher, and a team doing this using technology or other means.
Little leaguers couldnt hit a big fastball with a tail or a curveball if the pitcher announced it. High schooler for the matter either. Major leaguers though can crush fastballs all day if they know they are coming, lay off a split fingered sinker that's going to fall out of the strike zone, and be ready for a curve. It's why batter who are exceptionally good at guessing do a lot better. This is cheating at its worst. In basketball a team can know the other team's plays and mostly the better team wins anyway. In football, if you know plays, it can have a dramatic effect on the outcome. Baseball also.
[URL]https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-feb-04-sp-20895-story.html[/URL][/quote]
Agreed Beast.
This couldn't be a bigger cheating scandal. Yes, teams have alway tried to steal signs or determine if someone is tipping pitches. That's part of the game, and if the batter can pick that up in the box and put it to use because a pitcher holds his glove at a different angle when he throws a certain pitch, more power to him. If a runner at 2nd wants to try to let a batter know what pitch was called...go for it. The pitcher has remedies for that, including throwing at the batters head.
Monte, what the Astros did was use technology to decipher the signals in real time and then convey that information to the batter in real time so he could act on that pitch accordingly. That's the MLB equivalent of the NFL home team having an open mic between their coaches and QB the whole game and the opposing team having no radio communications at all.
If that's going to be acceptable, then why bother playing?[/quote]
Not disagreeing, just trying to understand everyone's mindset here. So stealing signs is OK, as long as it's not done with technology. Is that it? And yes, I understand there is a difference. But in a game which has had cheating going on since it's inception, I'm wondering why everyone is so appalled and outraged over this morally?[/quote]
Here's what happens when a batter tries to steal a sign [attachment=1263]roseboro.jpg[/attachment][/quote]
Baseball policing its own. Beefsteak dinner tonight!
[quote="Monte" post=372928][quote="SJUFAN2" post=372915][quote="Monte" post=372907]
Again, you are drawing an line based on your ethical standards. Clearly you have higher ethical standards then I do, because while I think this is wrong, I am not outraged about it like so many others are. And team owners are so full of crap. I happen to completely agree with Francesca here, not something I do much:
[URL]https://www.nj.com/yankees/202...hining-about-astros-sign-stealing.html?fbclid[/URL]=IwAR0AwTGTyTHFQveiLI4GyneFPIQgD6SJMFoqbIbcduDDSYJRGJ8Cd2rkCd0[/quote]
Clearly we aren't going to agree on this so I'll leave it with this: Not all cheating is equal.
If I do 100mph on the freeway and get a ticket I'm not likely losing my licence for a first offense.
If I do 100mph past an elementary school when school is letting out, I'm not only losing my licence but I could get jail time.
Both are crimes. Even identical acts at a basic level. But one is far worse than the other, no?[/quote]
Once you ask me a question you don’t “leave it with this” lol. Agree completely that there are degrees of cheating, as well as all types of cheating. Yes using technology is a whole other level, and yes there should be punishment. But in a game were cheating of all different types and levels has been rampant since it’s inception, I just don’t get the outrage over this. And this ain’t new by any stretch. Not sure if this has been posted before:
[URL]https://www.espn.com/mlb/story...-russa-had-sign-stealing-system-white-sox-80s[/URL][/quote]
You just don't get the outrage? You just don't get the outrage? Well you better get outraged buster!
Again, you are drawing an line based on your ethical standards. Clearly you have higher ethical standards then I do, because while I think this is wrong, I am not outraged about it like so many others are. And team owners are so full of crap. I happen to completely agree with Francesca here, not something I do much:
[URL]https://www.nj.com/yankees/202...hining-about-astros-sign-stealing.html?fbclid[/URL]=IwAR0AwTGTyTHFQveiLI4GyneFPIQgD6SJMFoqbIbcduDDSYJRGJ8Cd2rkCd0[/quote]
Clearly we aren't going to agree on this so I'll leave it with this: Not all cheating is equal.
If I do 100mph on the freeway and get a ticket I'm not likely losing my licence for a first offense.
If I do 100mph past an elementary school when school is letting out, I'm not only losing my licence but I could get jail time.
Both are crimes. Even identical acts at a basic level. But one is far worse than the other, no?[/quote]
Once you ask me a question you don’t “leave it with this” lol. Agree completely that there are degrees of cheating, as well as all types of cheating. Yes using technology is a whole other level, and yes there should be punishment. But in a game were cheating of all different types and levels has been rampant since it’s inception, I just don’t get the outrage over this. And this ain’t new by any stretch. Not sure if this has been posted before:
[URL]https://www.espn.com/mlb/story...-russa-had-sign-stealing-system-white-sox-80s[/URL][/quote]
You just don't get the outrage? You just don't get the outrage? Well you better get outraged buster!