Around the Big East

[logen]

Look, no one can tell the future, but I do watch Villanova a lot, he has been there for 3 years now! I think it is more than fair to make judgements, have opinions about whether or not he can hack it at this level.

Frankly, my issue with bringing up other coaches having slow starts as a shield for Neptune, is that's a pretty flimsy case for why a coach should be given more time.

What does Neptune do that you like? Is there anything? Has he constructed the roster well, does he have a good sense of when to take timeouts, when his huddles are mic'd up, do you feel he is running a productive timeout, does his team consistently run quality sets, especially late in games when things are tight? I would answer NO to all of those questions. The only argument for Neptune I have seen on this board is that he made Fordham a .500 team in his one year there. But for the past 3 years, I look at Nova and I don't see a well coached team.

Furthermore, I think the comparisons to coaches having slow starts is especially flimsy now. In the NIL era, building a team/program is not the same task it was when Jay Wright took over Villanova. There was a lot more development of underclassmen needed, transfers couldn't play instantly, you didn't have an NIL budget, etc. Thats not to say anything is easy, it is still difficult don't get me wrong. It is just different, and with the resources Nova is privy to, fresh off of their golden age, I think Neptune needed to show more than he's shown, to get the benefit of the doubt. And I think the higher ups there agree with me based on what I have heard.

I am pulling for Nova to move off of Neptune this offseason. We are still in a very uncertain time right now for the Big East, and we could use Nova being a better asset than they have been since Wright left.

Here’s my problem, I never said you were wrong or certainly never questioned your right to your opinion. But frankly, you have no idea what kind of job he is doing, neither do I. I presented the examples as reasons why Nova may be retaining him, in the same vein they decided on Wright and Duke on K after 3 mediocre seasons.
I do know a 15-4 run to end a game and lose by two is way more on the players than the coach and I believe Nova has lost a few of those type games. Good teams have players who make plays at crunch time, I don’t think anyone would argue that St. John’s would be much less a team without having more than one of those type players.
So to answer your question, frankly I have no idea what Neptune’s strength or weaknesses are, and don’t think I am remotely qualified to judge from afar.

 

[lawmanfan]

I do know a 15-4 run to end a game and lose by two is way more on the players than the coach and I believe Nova has lost a few of those type games

Proceeding from your premise: you do not think that a team that repeatedly gives up large leads and loses games is indicative of a potential coaching deficit? So when they build the lead the coach gets the credit but when they give it up that's on the players?

Respect your experience and acumen (and admittedly enjoy your combativeness and crankiness) but would need a better explanation of your logic on this one.

 

[Amaseinyourface]

While leaning towards Logan here, I have a hard time imagining Neptune improving the rosters he’s had. That would be my concern with Butler and Providence as well, and Matta has absolutely proven he can coach.

 

[Jack Williams]

While leaning towards Logan here, I have a hard time imagining Neptune improving the rosters he’s had. That would be my concern with Butler and Providence as well, and Matta has absolutely proven he can coach.

I have the opposite concern. Nova has the resources to put together solid teams for years to come. It is Neptune who I don't believe will get the most out of them. Guess we will see how it plays out

 

[SJU14]

This is pretty terrible for Big East. Kentucky (21-8) and Arkansas (14-15) wasn't exactly a heavyweight matchup.

Seton Hall is a terrible game to pick if you're looking for viewership, even if they were good.

 

[Amaseinyourface]

I have the opposite concern. Nova has the resources to put together solid teams for years to come. It is Neptune who I don't believe will get the most out of them. Guess we will see how it plays out

A 5th year forward with final four experience and leading the country in scoring is really hard to come by.

Last years roster was loaded as well.

 

[logen]

Ok, here goes, I look at coaching as somewhat of a paradox; coaches do the vast majority of their work in practice and have very much less of an influence during actual games; now that is not none at all but way less than the average fan thinks.
Second IMO there are two games within a single game of shall I say a close game.
For sake of the explanation let’s say the first 36 minutes and the last four. The last 4 is a players game, you simply need players who will make plays.
Example, the Johnnies bench make a great call on the inbounds play, I think it was UConn, but if Luis doesn’t drill the very tough pressure jumper, so what?
Another example, St. John’s has all season dominated on defense during that last 4 minutes if close games, players stepping up and taking “ownership” of the game themselves. No strategy involved but a ton of grit and heart and willingness to go for it.
I am just a firm believer players win or lose close games, because it becomes much more about heart and nerves and effort than strategy.
Tough to deny a big part of the Johnnies record is a result of them having a team really not afraid of “the moment” led of course by Luis, Richmond, and Eijofor but certainly others have made huge plays and shots at winning time.

 

[Jack Williams]

A 5th year forward with final four experience and leading the country in scoring is really hard to come by.

Last years roster was loaded as well.

Dixon is a great player, but one could argue the team they have is way too centered around him. He's top 5 in usage rate in the country. People here thought Daniss "The ball hog" Jenkins had way too much usage, and his was 25.2. Dixon's is 34.5! That is nuts.

I think future Nova teams would be way better off as a balanced squad with multiple high level options.

But therein lies my other complaint about Neptune. He doesn't really know what he is doing assembling rosters, IMO. Boakye was a horrid pickup. Jhamir Brickus? What made him think Brickus was a good fit for the Big East? And when he does get talent, he struggles to implement them in any meaningful way. Anyone remember Cam Whitmore? Kid looked miserable the entire year he was there and he never worked on Nova, despite having obvious talent.

Dixon committed to play for Jay Wright and stuck around. I just don't see what Neptune has done, developmentally, recruiting, or coaching wise to inspire any confidence outside of that.

 

[BrooklynRed]

This does not surprise me as Georgetown students are not locals but from throughout the country unlike ST. John's kids who are Metro NY in the majority. We have many alumni (subway alums) to draw on while most Hoya's graduate and move away. Washington DC is populated by a majority of folks in government who come from all over the US and have their own universities to support.

When we played them in Cap Center there were 4,400 in attendance and 12,800 at MSG. Similar in 2024 with 4,800 and 16,100. In 2023, 3,000 and 11,500

 

[MugCostanza]

Dixon is a great player, but one could argue the team they have is way too centered around him. He's top 5 in usage rate in the country. People here thought Daniss "The ball hog" Jenkins had way too much usage, and his was 25.2. Dixon's is 34.5! That is nuts.

Person

 

[Amaseinyourface]

I just don't see what Neptune has done, developmentally, recruiting, or coaching wise to inspire any confidence outside of that.

He hasn’t won and IMO he has had enough talent to do so. I am not claiming he will succeed if kept, just that I don’t think he’s proven he CANT succeed.

I think plenty of people thought after the first 1/4 of the season he would lose this team this year, and I don’t think that has been the case. Hes also built plenty of leads against quality teams which speaks to his ability to get his teams prepared and to gameplan. Now losing those leads is certainly an issue but coaches get better too.

Did he out coach Pitino in their close win?

 

[Jack Williams]

He hasn’t won and IMO he has had enough talent to do so. I am not claiming he will succeed if kept, just that I don’t think he’s proven he CANT succeed.

I think plenty of people thought after the first 1/4 of the season he would lose this team this year, and I don’t think that has been the case. Hes also built plenty of leads against quality teams which speaks to his ability to get his teams prepared and to gameplan. Now losing those leads is certainly an issue but coaches get better too.

Did he out coach Pitino in their close win?

I am not saying he can't succeed, What I am saying, 3 years in, he has shown me nothing that makes me think the lightbulb is going to suddenly turn on. Some athletes, coaches, etc. struggle out the gate but show glimpses of things that can make me a believer and more willing to be patient. There can be improvement on things along the way that point to the arrow trending up. With Neptune, I don't see a plan in the way he recruits, I don't see a team with an identity, I really just get nothing from them. They won one more Big East game than last year. And the conference is worse. And that is why the fans of the program have turned on them, it is just so "bleh" right now. There's no juice, no excitement, no belief

As for the game against us, no I don't think he outcoached Pitino. I think he caught St. John's at the right time, a home game with Smith out, and got a hot shooting night from his team. Which is why days later, they went up to providence and got punked, in that one they only hit 5 threes and didn't know how to handle it.

Overall, ask yourself, if you had vested interest in Villanova basketball. You see donations, attendance, relevancy all trending downward. What's the better bet, go use your resources to get a head coach with proven high major success, or cross your fingers and hope Kyle Neptune becomes the guy in years 4-6? To me the decision is obvious. If Kyle gets fired, goes down a level and figures things out, god bless him. Doesn't mean Nova should sit around and hope it happens for them when they have the brand, history, and fanbase that can attract a coach that is way more of a sure thing

 

[room112]

Two big games tonight for Big East tourney seeding purposes. Xavier @ Butler (Xavier needs this one to keep their NCAA hopes alive) and of course Marquette @ UConn. Both should be good.

 

[austour]

This does not surprise me as Georgetown students are not locals but from throughout the country unlike ST. John's kids who are Metro NY in the majority. We have many alumni (subway alums) to draw on while most Hoya's graduate and move away. Washington DC is populated by a majority of folks in government who come from all over the US and have their own universities to support.

When we played them in Cap Center there were 4,400 in attendance and 12,800 at MSG. Similar in 2024 with 4,800 and 16,100. In 2023, 3,000 and 11,500

True but they averaged 10K-16K per game in conference from 1981 to 2015. Been precipitously dropping ever since to a nadir of under 6K in 21-23 with a little blip last year just over 7K. It's still about the product. DC bigwigs will support a winning product just like NYC finance bros if not quite to the same numbers.

 

[NCJohnnie]

I have the opposite concern. Nova has the resources to put together solid teams for years to come. It is Neptune who I don't believe will get the most out of them. Guess we will see how it plays out

I’d be shocked if Nova doesn’t have more than sufficient NIL resources to field a highly competitive Big East team.
Question becomes how much luster has program lost in the eyes of portal and/or high school recruits since Jay left.

 

[dk423]

True but they averaged 10K-16K per game in conference from 1981 to 2015. Been precipitously dropping ever since to a nadir of under 6K in 21-23 with a little blip last year just over 7K. It's still about the product. DC bigwigs will support a winning product just like NYC finance bros if not quite to the same numbers.

2006–07 Georgetown Hoyas men's basketball team - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2007–08 Georgetown Hoyas men's basketball team - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Their attendance during their last final four run + the year after. Interesting that, even in those good years, they did rely on BE competition to fill it up.

#11 in the nation and only 9k against STJ? Would never happen here.

 

[lawmanfan]

Hes also built plenty of leads against quality teams which speaks to his ability to get his teams prepared and to gameplan. Now losing those leads is certainly an issue but coaches get better too.

Did he out coach Pitino in their close win?

For sake of the explanation let’s say the first 36 minutes and the last four. The last 4 is a players game, you simply need players who will make plays.
Example, the Johnnies bench make a great call on the inbounds play, I think it was UConn, but if Luis doesn’t drill the very tough pressure jumper, so what?
Another example, St. John’s has all season dominated on defense during that last 4 minutes if close games, players stepping up and taking “ownership” of the game themselves. No strategy involved but a ton of grit and heart and willingness to go for it.
I am just a firm believer players win or lose close games, because it becomes much more about heart and nerves and effort than strategy.
Tough to deny a big part of the Johnnies record is a result of them having a team really not afraid of “the moment” led of course by Luis, Richmond, and Eijofor but certainly others have made huge plays and shots at winning time.

These are both good points.

I do think that from what I've seen this year Neptune has had his team ready to play.

And I agree that veteran players (or clutch players) have a resiliency that is needed to win close games.

However with regard to Neptune, what troubles me is that last year I thought he made the least of the roster he had, and this year either his roster is not good outside of Dixon and Poplar or he hasn't figured out how to use it. And I have no idea what he does when Dixon leaves.

I also do not entirely agree that "routinely chokes away double digit leads" is strictly a player problem. If you're doing that repeatedly then unless your team is completely lacking in character it means that as a coach you aren't doing anything to stop the bleeding (slow reaction time in calling TOs and getting your troops organized) and/or the other team is making adjustments that you aren't responding to (again often a reaction-speed issue).

So I don't think you can hold the coach harmless and put it all on the players. Having vets like we do definitely helps. but so does good coaching.

 

[paultzman]

True but they averaged 10K-16K per game in conference from 1981 to 2015. Been precipitously dropping ever since to a nadir of under 6K in 21-23 with a little blip last year just over 7K. It's still about the product. DC bigwigs will support a winning product just like NYC finance bros if not quite to the same numbers.

Exactly

 

[Marillac2]

Dixon is a great player, but one could argue the team they have is way too centered around him. He's top 5 in usage rate in the country. People here thought Daniss "The ball hog" Jenkins had way too much usage, and his was 25.2. Dixon's is 34.5! That is nuts.

I think future Nova teams would be way better off as a balanced squad with multiple high level options.

But therein lies my other complaint about Neptune. He doesn't really know what he is doing assembling rosters, IMO. Boakye was a horrid pickup. Jhamir Brickus? What made him think Brickus was a good fit for the Big East? And when he does get talent, he struggles to implement them in any meaningful way. Anyone remember Cam Whitmore? Kid looked miserable the entire year he was there and he never worked on Nova, despite having obvious talent.

Dixon committed to play for Jay Wright and stuck around. I just don't see what Neptune has done, developmentally, recruiting, or coaching wise to inspire any confidence outside of that.

Usage doesn't account for dribbling. Over-dribbling is back-breaking for chemistry and team morale.
I can't stand the way Dixon plays. He's such a good player too. If he dedicated himself to being a rebounding and defensive machine, I think Nova wins the regular season.

 

[Marillac2]

This is pretty terrible for Big East. Kentucky (21-8) and Arkansas (14-15) wasn't exactly a heavyweight matchup.

Terrible games for CBS to pick. Both games were in one market too.