Around the Big East

[Mean Gene]

Willard's an excellent coach in my opinion. No one comes close to Jay Wright, but in my book Willard & McDermott have shown a very nice body of work and could easily leave for bigger jobs if they so desired.   

I'd add Shaka Smart to this group.




 

Totally overrated until he proves me wrong.  Which I do not expect

How exactly is Shaka Smart overrated when he made it to a Final Four at a school that has fewer resources and lesser facilities than the school he’s at now? He consistently won
Over 25 games a year at VCU and consistently brought in Top 20 recruiting classes at Texas. The only thing that hindered him at Texas , besides the universities and the fanbase’s absurd expectations, was that he had some of those top recruits become one and done’s and I also believe there were some injuries. He will have Marquette in top 5 of the Big East every year starting next season, just watch. He already brought two recruits from Texas over and signed two other high level guards for next season.

If by "absurd expectations" you mean "win a single NCAA tournament game in six years at Texas, with all the resources in the world (both legit and otherwise) and lauded recruiting classes" then yeah.

Smart is essentially a modern-era Steve Lavin. Which I do not mean as a compliment.

Maybe he will turn it around at Marquette and prove that his VCU run was not a fluke. He was certainly a good gamble for Marquette (and it worked out for him since Texas was going to fire him for underperforming). He may in fact turn out to be a good coach although so far there is little evidence that he is anything more than a personality guy / salesman.

But to view him as one of the top coaches in the game is (in my opinion) a mistake which is why I say he's overrated when people talk about him as though he is on the Wright/Iszo/McDermott/Self level of the game. He's an interesting guy who can clearly recruit and has yet to prove that he is a good coach.

Just my opinion.

Prove his VCU run was no fluke?? He didn’t just have one run the Final Four year. He won over 25 games six years in a row at VCU and then won 20 his first year at Texas. That’s hardly a Fluke. No, I don’t think he is on the Jay Wright, Tom Izzo level as you stated. But, I do think that other than Wright I would take him over just about any other coach in our conference. As a coach he’s accomplished more than Hurley, Steele, Jordan, Stubblefield, Ewing, Willard, Cooley etc.

 

[lawmanfan]

 

Prove his VCU run was no fluke?? He didn’t just have one run the Final Four year. He won over 25 games six years in a row at VCU and then won 20 his first year at Texas. That’s hardly a Fluke. No, I don’t think he is on the Jay Wright, Tom Izzo level as you stated. But, I do think that other than Wright I would take him over just about any other coach in our conference. As a coach he’s accomplished more than Hurley, Steele, Jordan, Stubblefield, Ewing, Willard, Cooley etc.

 

Now that's an interesting discussion.  I'd go something like this in tiers:

Wright
----------
McDermott
Willard
-----------
Hurley
Cooley
Anderson
Smart
----------
Jordan
Steele
Ewing
Stubblefield

Stubblefield is only in the last group due to lack of a resume, but if I were to guess it will turn out that he and Smart are about the same guy and that he will wind up in the tier above.

Ewing can recruit and he can coach, but it is increasingly apparent that his old school approach does not work with the players, which mires him in the bottom category.  If he could fix that then he could rise as high as the second tier but there's no evidence to date that he can fix that.

Jordan and Steele have yet to impress me.

As you can see I am not saying that Smart is trash.  He is a great recruiter and coaches well enough to win a bunch of games (at least in the regular season).  I'm saying that he's overrated because people think of him as a a Tier 1 or Tier 2 coach when there's no evidence that he is, at least at the major conference level.  I don't care about his wins at a mid-major when he was outrecruiting everyone in his conference.  When he got to the Power 5+1 level, his teams consistently underperformed comparative to the talent on the roster, he won zero NCAA games, and he managed to lose to 14 seed Abilene Christian as a 3 seed. 

You just can't compare that to coaches like McDermott, Willard, Cooley, Hurley.  At least not yet.  It's very possible that he'll turn the corner at Marquette, but until he does it's just speculation based on what he did at a lower level which did not translate to this level.
 

 

[Mean Gene]

 

Prove his VCU run was no fluke?? He didn’t just have one run the Final Four year. He won over 25 games six years in a row at VCU and then won 20 his first year at Texas. That’s hardly a Fluke. No, I don’t think he is on the Jay Wright, Tom Izzo level as you stated. But, I do think that other than Wright I would take him over just about any other coach in our conference. As a coach he’s accomplished more than Hurley, Steele, Jordan, Stubblefield, Ewing, Willard, Cooley etc.


 

Now that's an interesting discussion.  I'd go something like this in tiers:

Wright
----------
McDermott
Willard
-----------
Hurley
Cooley
Anderson
Smart
----------
Jordan
Steele
Ewing
Stubblefield

Stubblefield is only in the last group due to lack of a resume, but if I were to guess it will turn out that he and Smart are about the same guy and that he will wind up in the tier above.

Ewing can recruit and he can coach, but it is increasingly apparent that his old school approach does not work with the players, which mires him in the bottom category.  If he could fix that then he could rise as high as the second tier but there's no evidence to date that he can fix that.

Jordan and Steele have yet to impress me.

As you can see I am not saying that Smart is trash.  He is a great recruiter and coaches well enough to win a bunch of games (at least in the regular season).  I'm saying that he's overrated because people think of him as a a Tier 1 or Tier 2 coach when there's no evidence that he is, at least at the major conference level.  I don't care about his wins at a mid-major when he was outrecruiting everyone in his conference.  When he got to the Power 5+1 level, his teams consistently underperformed comparative to the talent on the roster, he won zero NCAA games, and he managed to lose to 14 seed Abilene Christian as a 3 seed. 

You just can't compare that to coaches like McDermott, Willard, Cooley, Hurley.  At least not yet.  It's very possible that he'll turn the corner at Marquette, but until he does it's just speculation based on what he did at a lower level which did not translate to this level.

 

Why are McDermott and Willard a tier above Smart? What have they ever won? Have either of them been to a Final Four, have either of them ever recruited to the level Smart did at Texas, have either ever had the success that Smart had at a smaller school with fewer resources and lesser facilities? Interesting discussion, absolutely, only time will tell. I think Smart kills it at Marquette and has them as a top tier Big East program from next season on.

 

[BrookJersey Redmen]

LMF's grouping and ordering of coaches seems to me spot on.

Wright, head and shoulders the top.

I hate to say it, but Cooley is a good coach but given his distaste for St. John's I just cannot like the guy.

Willard is a good coach too, but given his means and methods and connection through his dad to Slick Rick, I cannot like that guy. (I liked Ralph Willard when he was Head Coach at Holy Cross).

All I can say about Hurley, being a NJ guy, and watching him as a player at Seton Hall he was no Bobby Hurley Jr. as a player (probably same as a person) and he is no Bob Hurley Sr. as a coach.

 

[lawmanfan]

Smart at Texas
Overall: 109–86 (.559)          
Conference: 51–56 (.477)
NCAA appearances: 3 in 6 years
NCAA Wins:  0

McDermott at Creighton/Big East
Overall:  261-128 (.671)
Conference:  82-63 (.566)
NCAA appearances:  4 in 8 years
NCAA wins:  3

Willard at Seton Hall
Overall:  216-152 (.587)
Conference:  96-107 (.473)
NCAA Appearances:  4 in 10 years (all in the past 5 years)
NCAA wins:  1

Cooley at Providence
Overall:  208-137 ).603)
Conference:  96-90 (.516)
NCAA Appearances:  5 in 9 years
NCAA wins:  1

 

[Mean Gene]

Smart at Texas
Overall: 109–86 (.559)          
Conference: 51–56 (.477)
NCAA appearances: 3 in 6 years
NCAA Wins:  0

McDermott at Creighton/Big East
Overall:  261-128 (.671)
Conference:  82-63 (.566)
NCAA appearances:  4 in 8 years
NCAA wins:  3

Willard at Seton Hall
Overall:  216-152 (.587)
Conference:  96-107 (.473)
NCAA Appearances:  4 in 10 years (all in the past 5 years)
NCAA wins:  1

Cooley at Providence
Overall:  208-137 ).603)
Conference:  96-90 (.516)
NCAA Appearances:  5 in 9 years
NCAA wins:  1

So you’re ignoring what Smart did at VCU? Where was 163-56 , made the NCAA tournament 5 out of 6 years and went to a final four?

 

[room112]

Smart at Texas
Overall: 109–86 (.559)          
Conference: 51–56 (.477)
NCAA appearances: 3 in 6 years
NCAA Wins:  0

McDermott at Creighton/Big East
Overall:  261-128 (.671)
Conference:  82-63 (.566)
NCAA appearances:  4 in 8 years
NCAA wins:  3

Willard at Seton Hall
Overall:  216-152 (.587)
Conference:  96-107 (.473)
NCAA Appearances:  4 in 10 years (all in the past 5 years)
NCAA wins:  1

Cooley at Providence
Overall:  208-137 ).603)
Conference:  96-90 (.516)
NCAA Appearances:  5 in 9 years
NCAA wins:  1

I give Willard credit. But if you look at that record, especially Big East Wins and NCAA wins, he would have been run out of this school by our fans if he was our coach, many years ago.

 

[RedmanMike]

I tend to agree with those who think Smart is overrated.  He had a great run at VCU, when they were paying for players. (Wade was his assistant, and he would take part of his salary and use it to pay players.  That's well-known in coaching circles.  That was before Wade has access to bags of cash from Adidas at LSU.)

At Texas. Smart underachieved.  He didn't do badly, but considering the resources at his disposal I think its fair to say he was a disappointment.  COVID hurt him, since his best team is the one that didn't get to play in the NCAAs. 

So far, he's done well at Marquette.  We'll see how it goes over time.

 

[lawmanfan]

 

So you’re ignoring what Smart did at VCU? Where was 163-56 , made the NCAA tournament 5 out of 6 years and went to a final four?

Correct.  I don't care what Smart did at VCU or what Hurley did at Buffalo or what Willard did at Iona or what Cooley did at Fairfield.  That you can outcoach or outrecruit mid-major or low-major competition, get the bid out of a one-bid league, and maybe catch lightening in a bottle in the NCAA tournament is a ticket to a job in a major conference.

Once you get into a major conference, you get judged based on what you have done at this level.

Look at it this way:  if you get super grades and a great SAT score in high school, get into Harvard, and then flunk out of Harvard, you still aren't a Harvard grad.  Nobody says "gee but he did well in high school."

Smart got great grades and a great SAT score at VCU.  He's been a middling student at this level.  Doesn't mean he can't improve, and he very well may.  But you can't look at his VCU record and say "that means he's great" when thus far it hasn't translated to more than decent at the high-major level.

 

[fordham96]

You are also forgetting Texas was a 3 seed last year (the highest seed for Texas in NCAA's in more than a decade).  

How many Power 5 coaches get fired/gently pushed out after Making the NCAA's as a top 12 team?  Even with a first round loss?  You would be hard pressed to find any at least on performance.

And if you are going to dismiss his time at VCU then Greg McDermott was a TERRIBLE coach prior to coaching at Creighton because he coached at Iowa St and literally did NOTHING.

It is also funny how you conveniently made excuses for Mike Anderson getting fired at Arkansas (I can assure you Anderson would not have been fired at Arkansas after a season in which he was a 3 seed in the NCAA's) saying they have unreal expectations there but say nothing about Texas firing a coach who was a THREE SEED in the NCAA's.  


 

 

[paultzman]

AP Poll
14 - @NovaMBB 
17 - @XavierMBB 
20 - @SetonHallMBB 
23 - @PCFriarsmbb

 

[Las Vegan]

AP Poll
14 - @NovaMBB 
17 - @XavierMBB 
20 - @SetonHallMBB 
23 - @PCFriarsmbb

Good chance those four play in the Big East Tournament semis. I think Uconn, Creighton and Marquette fight it out for the last first round bye spot.

Texas plays in what can arguably be the toughest conference in college basketball and whoever is making the hire/fire decisions there evidently expects final four level results, in both football and basketball, and have the $ to continually buy out coaches with winning records.
I didn't suggest Sharp is ready for HOF induction, but I think he can certainly be compared to the successful Big East Coaches, with the exception of Wright.
 

 

[fordham96]

I hope our boys are ready on Wednesday at Gampel.  Because UCONN is going to be a bear.  They played a brutal non-conference schedule, Auburn, WVU, St. Bonaventure, Michigan St, VCU.  They are finally getting healthy and when they are at full strength I really believe they are the 2nd best team in the conference.

 

 

[lawmanfan]

You are also forgetting Texas was a 3 seed last year (the highest seed for Texas in NCAA's in more than a decade).  

How many Power 5 coaches get fired/gently pushed out after Making the NCAA's as a top 12 team?  Even with a first round loss?  You would be hard pressed to find any at least on performance.

And if you are going to dismiss his time at VCU then Greg McDermott was a TERRIBLE coach prior to coaching at Creighton because he coached at Iowa St and literally did NOTHING.

It is also funny how you conveniently made excuses for Mike Anderson getting fired at Arkansas (I can assure you Anderson would not have been fired at Arkansas after a season in which he was a 3 seed in the NCAA's) saying they have unreal expectations there but say nothing about Texas firing a coach who was a THREE SEED in the NCAA's. 

 

1.  I nowhere disputed that Texas has unreasonable expectations.  They do.  OTOH it wasn't necessarily unreasonable for them to see a coach who had all the resources in the world as well as a wealth of talent on the roster win zero NCAA tournament games in six years, lose to a 14 seed as a 3 seed (no I didn't forget that if you read my earlier posts), and decide that maybe they could do better than that.  I guess we will see if Chris Beard does better there than Smart did.  So far he's doing pretty well, though.

2.  I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Coach Anderson, but if you noticed I put him and Smart in the same tier.  They're both coaches who bring some pluses and minuses to the table, and neither of them is on the same level as the top tier coaches in the game.  They're both good, but not great coaches (albeit with very different skill sets that IMO get them to about the same level in the profession - but Smart is younger and may yet grow whereas Anderson is a finished product).

3.  Again, my point is simply that those who put Smart in with the top-tier coaches are overrating him based on his body of work to date.  Which doesn't mean that he won't turn out to be a home run hire by Marquette, which is entirely possible but remains to be seen.

I guess nuance is dead - just because I said "I don't think the guy is an A+" does not mean "I think the guy is an F."  But sadly that's the way of the world these days, not a lot of room for discussion the area in between.

And now I'm going to stop beating this dead horse.  Everyone's entitled to their opinion, as always, and I am always in favor of all of the teams in the Big East being good and well-coached.  What's good for the conference is good for everyone in the conference.

 

[paultzman]

The BIG EAST has announced that the Providence v Creighton game, scheduled for tonight, has been canceled due to COVID issues within the PC program.

 

[lawmanfan]

The BIG EAST has announced that the Providence v Creighton game, scheduled for tonight, has been canceled due to COVID issues within the PC program.
 

I'd anticipate disruptions like this for the next few weeks, and between that and the rescheduled games it's going to inject a fair amount of volatility into the season.  Has worked against us so far, but could work for us at points also.

 

[espken]

The BIG EAST has announced that the Providence v Creighton game, scheduled for tonight, has been canceled due to COVID issues within the PC program.

A day late and a dollar short, such as life as a SJU diehard.

 

[BrookJersey Redmen]

What is Steve Lavin going to do in Omaha tonight with free time, CUv.PC game postponed?

It's not exactly the West Village, or even Cincinati for that matter?

Bill Rafferty would just find some Irish gin mill and have a ball, I think Lavin's tastes run a little plusher. Maybe he asks what Warren Buffett is doing?

 

[Ray Morgan]

Raftery is amazing. I'm more than a decade younger than him, and I had to go to bed all afternoon after an hour at the dentist. Bill flies from city to city and calls night games with the energy and excitement of a young kid opening his Christmas presents.

 

[RedStormNC]

Not sure if the coaches are playing up for being mic'd up, but Stubblefield is a nutjub and Smart is a bit all over the place too.