Around the Big East 19/20

[quote="Jack Williams" post=391197]I understand none of us like UConn, hell even our own Room112 went there I believe and he doesn’t even like UConn!

With that said, there’s no denying that getting them was a good business move. For TV deals and the eventual renegotiating of the MSG deal. I know Big East re-upped with MSG a couple years ago, but time flies[/quote]

Question being is what’s good for the Big East always good for St. John’s?
 
[quote="redmannorth" post=391189][quote="Amaseinyourface" post=391181]If our 5 man class is considered the 78th best in the country then my problem Isn’t with CMA’s recruiting, it’s with the recruiting class rankings.

I really am not worried about this staff getting the players it needs.[/quote]
It is because they did not include the jucos which may very well be the best two players in the class next season.
We can all be comfortable knowing that the 5 man class plus McGriff is much much better than 78th and also fills the needs we have.
G d willing the staff will bring in another good class with a greater emphasis on high school players.[/quote]

They actually do include jucos and our full class.

https://247sports.com/college/saint-johns/Season/2020-Basketball/Commits/

To be fair, though, I do think the juco rankings undervalue Cole (#21 overall). These are composite rankings so I don't think there are better sources, it's just that juco has limited data vs high school.

Now, looking at the #6 team in the Big East for 2020: Butler. They are one spot ahead of us in the Big East rankings...

https://247sports.com/college/butler/Season/2020-Basketball/Commits/

They have 4 high school kids all ranked ahead of our top high school player (Posh). Further, they're all around 100 spots ahead of Posh.

Given Butler's class vs our own, I don't really think they're undervaluing our class much. Some, yes, but we're still being outclassed by the rest of the conference. Not getting any kids in at least the top 200 for 3 straight years would be a warning sign. 6/11 Big East teams have at least 1 kid in the top 165 for 2021 and I don't think Coronavirus has impacted much tbh. I keep track of these rankings every year and the overall number of commitments by June seems on par with prior years. I still expect the big majority of kids to be committed by October.

As others have mentioned, this staff does keep things under wraps. Just have to hope for a surprise I guess.
 
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It is truly amazing to me how many people are slave to these rankings that are complete BS.

Newsflash, these scouts try really hard to get the top 25 or so recruits right. Everything after is a complete crapshoot. If only that one top 100 recruit Sid Wilson stuck around at St. John’s I heard he became a hell of a player
 
[quote="Amaseinyourface" post=391198][quote="Jack Williams" post=391197]I understand none of us like UConn, hell even our own Room112 went there I believe and he doesn’t even like UConn!

With that said, there’s no denying that getting them was a good business move. For TV deals and the eventual renegotiating of the MSG deal. I know Big East re-upped with MSG a couple years ago, but time flies[/quote]

Question being is what’s good for the Big East always good for St. John’s?[/quote]

No, but at some point you gotta suck it up.

If we have people arguing for the addition of Dayton instead of UConn because it makes things easier for St. John’s to be good, that’s a pretty big loser mentality right there.

Our conference isn’t gonna make decisions to make things smooth for the johnnies. At some point, our program needs to take it upon ourselves to be a consistent, winning team despite any of the teams around us.

And the bottom line is, if we are looking back at some of our teams 20 years from now, saying “aww we could’ve been so good that year if it wasn’t for that damned UConn!” Then we probably didn’t deserve to be good in the first place. Gotta make it happen. No excuses
 
[quote="Amaseinyourface" post=391198][quote="Jack Williams" post=391197]I understand none of us like UConn, hell even our own Room112 went there I believe and he doesn’t even like UConn!

With that said, there’s no denying that getting them was a good business move. For TV deals and the eventual renegotiating of the MSG deal. I know Big East re-upped with MSG a couple years ago, but time flies[/quote]

Question being is what’s good for the Big East always good for St. John’s?[/quote]

Yes, because the best leagues have the best teams and those teams generally win. The ACC wins and has duke,UNC and a bunch of others that always push for top dog. None are threatened by the other. Gotta be a big fish to swim in a big pond. No other school effects us becoming a big fish again.
 
[quote="Adam" post=391203][quote="redmannorth" post=391189][quote="Amaseinyourface" post=391181]If our 5 man class is considered the 78th best in the country then my problem Isn’t with CMA’s recruiting, it’s with the recruiting class rankings.

I really am not worried about this staff getting the players it needs.[/quote]
It is because they did not include the jucos which may very well be the best two players in the class next season.
We can all be comfortable knowing that the 5 man class plus McGriff is much much better than 78th and also fills the needs we have.
G d willing the staff will bring in another good class with a greater emphasis on high school players.[/quote]

They actually do include jucos and our full class.

https://247sports.com/college/saint-johns/Season/2020-Basketball/Commits/

To be fair, though, I do think the juco rankings undervalue Cole (#21 overall). These are composite rankings so I don't think there are better sources, it's just that juco has limited data vs high school.

Now, looking at the #6 team in the Big East for 2020: Butler. They are one spot ahead of us in the Big East rankings...

https://247sports.com/college/butler/Season/2020-Basketball/Commits/

They have 4 high school kids all ranked ahead of our top high school player (Posh). Further, they're all around 100 spots ahead of Posh.

Given Butler's class vs our own, I don't really think they're undervaluing our class much. Some, yes, but we're still being outclassed by the rest of the conference. Not getting any kids in at least the top 200 for 3 straight years would be a warning sign. 6/11 Big East teams have at least 1 kid in the top 165 for 2021 and I don't think Coronavirus has impacted much tbh. I keep track of these rankings every year and the overall number of commitments by June seems on par with prior years. I still expect the big majority of kids to be committed by October.

As others have mentioned, this staff does keep things under wraps. Just have to hope for a surprise I guess.[/quote]

If you think there are 243 players better than Posh Alexander then you’re a dope. Sorry to say it...
 
[quote="MCNPA" post=391208][quote="Amaseinyourface" post=391198][quote="Jack Williams" post=391197]I understand none of us like UConn, hell even our own Room112 went there I believe and he doesn’t even like UConn!

With that said, there’s no denying that getting them was a good business move. For TV deals and the eventual renegotiating of the MSG deal. I know Big East re-upped with MSG a couple years ago, but time flies[/quote]

Question being is what’s good for the Big East always good for St. John’s?[/quote]

Yes, because the best leagues have the best teams and those teams generally win. The ACC wins and has duke,UNC and a bunch of others that always push for top dog. None are threatened by the other. Gotta be a big fish to swim in a big pond. No other school effects us becoming a big fish again.[/quote]

What do you think is a better situation for St. Johns, the BE as it currently stands (UConn included) or the big East that had cuse, Louisville, and West Virginia?

Cause according to the logic you just used, it’s the latter.
 
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[quote="Jack Williams" post=391197]I understand none of us like UConn, hell even our own Room112 went there I believe and he doesn’t even like UConn!

With that said, there’s no denying that getting them was a good business move. For TV deals and the eventual renegotiating of the MSG deal. I know Big East re-upped with MSG a couple years ago, but time flies[/quote]

My hatred runs deeper because I've had the up close experience with the annoying, arrogant, entitled, ignorant fans during my time there. The worst. Proud to say as a New Yorker I rooted for New York's team as a kid before going to college, and refused to change my rooting allegiances just because I went to school there.
 
One thing I will say about UConn. I wish we could get them booted off SNY and have that be the home for St John's sports.
 
[quote="otis" post=391140]Yukon’s (re)admission to the Big East had more to do with dollars and cents than basketball logic. Another strong program increases the leagues value when the current TV contracts are renegotiated..[/quote]

True, however, it is a hugh State school with a ton more $ to spend on Athletics than other private BE schools. The BE took a program that was dying and breathed life into it. The schools most affected by this move, in my opinion, are St. Johns and Providence.
 
I may be in the minority on this but I think our shortcomings as a program the past 30 years or so are of our own making. I have a hard time blaming Uconn's presence for our issues.

Mahoney never should have been hired to replace Coach Carnesecca...
Fraschilla was a good hire but probably didn't want to be here long term...
Hiring Jarvis out of left field instead of Jay Wright...
Norm Roberts was in over his head but did clean things up...
Lavin might have worked out if he'd not gotten sick...
Chris Mullin was just a bad hire...

With the benefit of hindsight, it just looks like we never had clear vision for the program at the top levels. Maybe it was money (facilities), or school politics, or apathy, or ...whatever.

It just feels different now. Cragg seems to be outside of all the internal politics and has an understanding of what it takes to be a top flight program. Anderson is exactly the right personality, coaching style, and bue collar/nose to the grindstone type of HC we have been looking for and failing to hire these past several decades.

As for Uconn...I'm glad they are back. Every conference needs a villain and they own that role in perpetuity.
 
[quote="SJUFAN2" post=391214]I may be in the minority on this but I think our shortcomings as a program the past 30 years or so are of our own making. I have a hard time blaming Uconn's presence for our issues.

Mahoney never should have been hired to replace Coach Carnesecca...
Fraschilla was a good hire but probably didn't want to be here long term...
Hiring Jarvis out of left field instead of Jay Wright...
Norm Roberts was in over his head but did clean things up...
Lavin might have worked out if he'd not gotten sick...
Chris Mullin was just a bad hire...

With the benefit of hindsight, it just looks like we never had clear vision for the program at the top levels. Maybe it was money (facilities), or school politics, or apathy, or ...whatever.

It just feels different now. Cragg seems to be outside of all the internal politics and has an understanding of what it takes to be a top flight program. Anderson is exactly the right personality, coaching style, and bue collar/nose to the grindstone type of HC we have been looking for and failing to hire these past several decades.

As for Uconn...I'm glad they are back. Every conference needs a villain and they own that role in perpetuity.[/quote]
I clearly believe that you are in the majority as opposed to minority as to why we have been poor performers the past 28 seasons. UConn did take some good recruits away from us over that period of time and will in the future but that is no where near the primary reason for our lack of success.
Out of the 6 hires you listed 4 never should have occurred and that was the shear stupidity of the SJU politics, the 3 most egregious being Mahoney, Roberts and Mullin. Jarvis it seems was a combination of wanting to pay less, no clear vision of who we want to be and apathy to a certain degree as he was never on our radar until the very last minute. Fran was a solid hire but we could not accept him looking at another job. Today we would dream of our coaches getting poached by another program as it means he would have been successful.
For Lavin and Mullin we opened up the bank ( why for Mullin I will never know , I guess that stupid SJU internal politics and to an extend Lavin as neither had jobs that paid remotely what they got from SJU ) however in the real world people get paid based upon performance.
In any event I too strongly believe CMA is the man for the job, with one private reservation/concern, and providing he can consistently get players in the top 50-150 category to SJU we will be in excellent shape. Hopefully we see more of that this recruiting class.
 
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[quote="Jack Williams" post=391204]It is truly amazing to me how many people are slave to these rankings that are complete BS.

Newsflash, these scouts try really hard to get the top 25 or so recruits right. Everything after is a complete crapshoot. If only that one top 100 recruit Sid Wilson stuck around at St. John’s I heard he became a hell of a player[/quote]

"Slave to the rankings"? Ouch. Obviously that was directed at me as it was right after my post. Next time just call me out by name.

I love analytics. It was my major, related to my job (I'm an entrepreneur), and I enjoy them for fun. I've been on here posting about NET every year and was one of the only people optimistic we could make the Dance last year at 9-9 in conference, let alone 8-10. That was in December when a lot of people were saying we'd need 11-7.

Just because I am now posting data you don't like doesn't mean you have to get personal. I even acknowledged that their juco rankings seem flawed. I also disagree with the premise of your post about only the top 25 mattering. You can't just name one player who didn't pan out (Wilson) and disregard the entire system. What about our highest ranked player of the Mullin era, Shamorie Ponds? What was Harrison's ranking? See how this works? Despite many exceptions there is still a strong correlation between rankings and how players turn out.

I'm optimistic about next year, just as I was optimistic about this past year. I am just concerned that we aren't recruiting like the rest of the league is.
 
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[quote="MCNPA" post=391209][quote="Adam" post=391203][quote="redmannorth" post=391189][quote="Amaseinyourface" post=391181]If our 5 man class is considered the 78th best in the country then my problem Isn’t with CMA’s recruiting, it’s with the recruiting class rankings.

I really am not worried about this staff getting the players it needs.[/quote]
It is because they did not include the jucos which may very well be the best two players in the class next season.
We can all be comfortable knowing that the 5 man class plus McGriff is much much better than 78th and also fills the needs we have.
G d willing the staff will bring in another good class with a greater emphasis on high school players.[/quote]

They actually do include jucos and our full class.

https://247sports.com/college/saint-johns/Season/2020-Basketball/Commits/

To be fair, though, I do think the juco rankings undervalue Cole (#21 overall). These are composite rankings so I don't think there are better sources, it's just that juco has limited data vs high school.

Now, looking at the #6 team in the Big East for 2020: Butler. They are one spot ahead of us in the Big East rankings...

https://247sports.com/college/butler/Season/2020-Basketball/Commits/

They have 4 high school kids all ranked ahead of our top high school player (Posh). Further, they're all around 100 spots ahead of Posh.

Given Butler's class vs our own, I don't really think they're undervaluing our class much. Some, yes, but we're still being outclassed by the rest of the conference. Not getting any kids in at least the top 200 for 3 straight years would be a warning sign. 6/11 Big East teams have at least 1 kid in the top 165 for 2021 and I don't think Coronavirus has impacted much tbh. I keep track of these rankings every year and the overall number of commitments by June seems on par with prior years. I still expect the big majority of kids to be committed by October.

As others have mentioned, this staff does keep things under wraps. Just have to hope for a surprise I guess.[/quote]

If you think there are 243 players better than Posh Alexander then you’re a dope. Sorry to say it...[/quote]

I am not implying their rankings are infallible or anywhere close, but they are a composite of rankings from every source (ESPN, Rivals, 247's own ranking system, etc). I think Posh should be higher but I also think St. John's fans are overvaluing him. Certainly wouldn't be the first time that fans overrated incoming players...

That said, the point of my post is that the Big East team one spot ahead of us has FOUR players in the mid 150's. Hard to argue that we have a better class than Butler and deserve to be ranked higher, even if Posh or Cole were ranked more in line with where I think they belong.

I'm also looking at a 3 year trend, not a single player who may or may not be undervalued.
 
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[quote="Adam" post=391217][quote="Jack Williams" post=391204]It is truly amazing to me how many people are slave to these rankings that are complete BS.

Newsflash, these scouts try really hard to get the top 25 or so recruits right. Everything after is a complete crapshoot. If only that one top 100 recruit Sid Wilson stuck around at St. John’s I heard he became a hell of a player[/quote]

"Slave to the rankings"? Ouch. Obviously that was directed at me as it was right after my post. Next time just call me out by name.

I love analytics. It was my major, related to my job (I'm an entrepreneur), and I enjoy them for fun. I've been on here posting about NET every year and was one of the only people optimistic we could make the Dance last year at 9-9 in conference, let alone 8-10. That was in December when a lot of people were saying we'd need 11-7.

Just because I am now posting data you don't like doesn't mean you have to get personal. I even acknowledged that their juco rankings seem flawed. I also disagree with the premise of your post about only the top 25 mattering. You can't just name one player who didn't pan out (Wilson) and disregard the entire system. What about our highest ranked player of the Mullin era, Shamorie Ponds? What was Harrison's ranking? See how this works? Despite many exceptions there is still a strong correlation between rankings and how players turn out.

I'm optimistic about next year, just as I was optimistic about this past year. I am just concerned that we aren't recruiting like the rest of the league is.[/quote]

You aren’t the only one on here who is like this when it comes to recruiting. It’s been an ongoing discussion for awhile. Many posters feel like we are screwed if we don’t get a goddamn 4 star recruit and I’m so tired of it.

Yea, the reason I can bring up Sid Wilson and you can bring up shamorie ponds, its because the rankings are a crapshoot. You don’t know what you’re getting until they get here. I don’t know where Champagnie ranked but he was a pretty damn good freshman. Marcellus Earlington wasn’t even considered a basketball player when he committed. These were two of our best players and two of our most exciting pieces moving forward.

If you love analytics, fine. But let’s not pretend there isn’t a massive difference between NCAA bubble talk analytics and high school recruiting rankings.

The amount of politics, connections, and exposure that it takes to get on those lists. A lot of times if you have a couple bad games at an AAU summer circuit you are buried even if you are a great player.

The part of your post that I actually take issue with is that we are being “outclassed” by the rest of the league. Oh really. Let’s use the beloved 247, and look back at past recruiting classes.

In 2015, St. John’s had the 2nd ranked recruiting class in the conference

In 2016, St. John’s had the 2nd ranked recruiting class in the conference again

In 2017, St. John’s had the 7th ranked recruiting class in the conference, still ahead of teams like butler and Marquette who had more success on the court that year

In 2018, St. John’s had the 5th ranked recruiting class in the conference, ahead of teams like seton hall, X, Marquette

So why the hell didn’t we win more than we did? Why is seton hall, Xavier, Butler, consistently more successful even if we had higher “rated” recruiting classes. Maybe because their programs have good coaches with clear visions on the players they want, and the fact that there are 3 stars next to their names instead of 4 doesn’t knock them off their vision.

Posh Alexander was created in a lab to play for Mike Anderson. His style IS for Mike Anderson. The fact he isn’t 4 stars doesn’t mean shit to me. We finally have a coach with an actual vision and he knows what he wants to do with his roster.

So yea, I’ll take getting “outclassed” on a website like 247, because I trust we’ll be better on the court then we ever were with Lavin or mullin who managed to get good recruiting classes time and time again.
 
Jack- obviously our classes under Lavin and Mullin didn't live up to their potential. That's why they were fired. I am glad CMA is our coach, but that doesn't mean I can't be concerned if I see a potential flaw.

Look at rankings for the rest of the Big East or the league in general and there's a clear correlation between rankings and how a team performs. That's just a fact, not an opinion. Now, are there outliers? Absolutely. St. John's was one of them. Maybe now we'll be an outlier the other way where we turn a bunch of 3 stars into 4 star players. That's possible, I just don't think it's sustainable long-term. I completely agree we need coaching first and foremost. Where I disagree is that we don't need 4 stars.

It's important to note that this staff HAS sent out a lot of offers to 4/5 stars. You honestly think the staff wouldn't love to have some of them? Are we just intentionally missing?

Also, your post keeps downplaying 247 as if it is some niche site, but I hope you realize these are the composite rankings. Meaning, they are an aggregate of all the rankings available online (ESPN, Rivals, etc). There's a reason I've used them for the past decade.

I'll all for discussing this stuff, I enjoy it. I just ask that you be respectful.
 
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[quote="SJUFAN2" post=391214]I may be in the minority on this but I think our shortcomings as a program the past 30 years or so are of our own making. I have a hard time blaming Uconn's presence for our issues.

Mahoney never should have been hired to replace Coach Carnesecca...
Fraschilla was a good hire but probably didn't want to be here long term...
Hiring Jarvis out of left field instead of Jay Wright...
Norm Roberts was in over his head but did clean things up...
Lavin might have worked out if he'd not gotten sick...
Chris Mullin was just a bad hire...

With the benefit of hindsight, it just looks like we never had clear vision for the program at the top levels. Maybe it was money (facilities), or school politics, or apathy, or ...whatever.

It just feels different now. Cragg seems to be outside of all the internal politics and has an understanding of what it takes to be a top flight program. Anderson is exactly the right personality, coaching style, and bue collar/nose to the grindstone type of HC we have been looking for and failing to hire these past several decades.

As for Uconn...I'm glad they are back. Every conference needs a villain and they own that role in perpetuity.[/quote]
I find it interesting that so many posters look upon UConn as a juggernaut that would best be avoided. This is not the Norm Roberts vs. Jim Calhoun era, and Danny Hurley has a lot to prove before we elevate him to the level of a future HOFer. We should have enough confidence in our current coaching staff to look forward to playing -- and regularly beating -- UConn, and not be upset that they're back in the BE. Are they 'the villain"? Yes, but they'll be a beatable villain, not an invincible one.
 
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[quote="Jack Williams" post=391197]I understand none of us like UConn, hell even our own Room112 went there I believe and he doesn’t even like UConn!

With that said, there’s no denying that getting them was a good business move. For TV deals and the eventual renegotiating of the MSG deal. I know Big East re-upped with MSG a couple years ago, but time flies[/quote]
Based on business reasons alone, cant disagree that it is a benefit to the BE.

Frankly, for me, its their fans that Irritate me the most. For most part, I get the sense that most BE fans root for BE teams to do well (no evidence, just my opinion) . UCONN fans, like Syracuse fans, come across as arrogant and above it all.
 
[quote="Adam" post=391222]Jack- obviously our classes under Lavin and Mullin didn't live up to their potential. That's why they were fired. I am glad CMA is our coach, but that doesn't mean I can't be concerned if I see a potential flaw.

Look at rankings for the rest of the Big East or the league in general and there's a clear correlation between rankings and how a team performs. That's just a fact, not an opinion. Now, are there outliers? Absolutely. St. John's was one of them. Maybe now we'll be an outlier the other way where we turn a bunch of 3 stars into 4 star players. That's possible, I just don't think it's sustainable long-term. I completely agree we need coaching first and foremost. Where I disagree is that we don't need 4 stars.

It's important to note that this staff HAS sent out a lot of offers to 4/5 stars. You honestly think the staff wouldn't love to have some of them? Are we just intentionally missing?

Also, your post keeps downplaying 247 as if it is some niche site, but I hope you realize these are the composite rankings. Meaning, they are an aggregate of all the rankings available online (ESPN, Rivals, etc). There's a reason I've used them for the past decade.

I'll all for discussing this stuff, I enjoy it. I just ask that you be respectful.[/quote]

I don’t think I ever was disrespectful. My comment originally was about people taking these recruiting sites too seriously and I think it’s true.

As for rankings on 247 directly correlating to success being a FACT? I disagree.

Since they’ve joined the big East, according to 247, Butler has consistently been in the bottom 3 of the league pretty much every year in terms of recruiting class.

Meanwhile Georgetown, St. John’s and Marquette have gotten a good amount of highly ranked guys. None of those 3 schools have won a tournament game in years.

Marquette had a slew of 4 star prospects when they broke through into the tournament 2 years ago only to get bitch slapped by a guy that somehow high school scouts didn’t think was great.

And yes, of course the staff wants 4 and 5 star guys. That’s fine. I’m just saying, it’s pretty shortsighted for St. John’s fans of all people to think getting some 4 stars makes or breaks us. We’ve seen it before. What’s wrong with us having a coach try a different route.

I’m 22. The only coaches I’ve seen in my lifetime before mike A are Norm, Lavin and Mullin. Not much “coaching” going on. So for me, I’m done with getting excited over good recruiting classes only to get let down. I like our coach now who knows what style he wants to play, recruits to it, and then plays. If he sprinkles in a 4 or 5 star recruit that’s fine but I’m not gonna lose sleep over where we sit on a 247 type site. It’s just not worth it to me. Because I’ve seen us at the top of those sites over the years. Didn’t equate to wins. I’ve seen Marquette and Georgetown at the top of those sites.
 
[quote="Section3" post=391224][quote="Jack Williams" post=391197]I understand none of us like UConn, hell even our own Room112 went there I believe and he doesn’t even like UConn!

With that said, there’s no denying that getting them was a good business move. For TV deals and the eventual renegotiating of the MSG deal. I know Big East re-upped with MSG a couple years ago, but time flies[/quote]
Based on business reasons alone, cant disagree that it is a benefit to the BE.

Frankly, for me, its their fans that Irritate me the most. For most part, I get the sense that most BE fans root for BE teams to do well (no evidence, just my opinion) . UCONN fans, like Syracuse fans, come across as arrogant and above it all.[/quote]

Oh yea their fans are the worst. But let’s beat them then! Honestly over the years I’ve found nova fans with their recent insane success to be arrogant and above everything. We just gotta start getting wins and their fans will shut up.
 
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