But my point is that Torre was not a great manager. I believe what he was good at was keeping Steinbrenner at bay and not letting all of Steinbrenner's bullspit roll down into the dugout. I think that's what made him such a good manager. I'm not sure if anyone else, especially another assertive, opinionated manager, would have been as successful. Just MHO. YMMV.
Apology
- Thread starter danfog
- Start date
But my point is that Torre was not a great manager. I believe what he was good at was keeping Steinbrenner at bay and not letting all of Steinbrenner's bullspit roll down into the dugout. I think that's what made him such a good manager. I'm not sure if anyone else, especially another assertive, opinionated manager, would have been as successful. Just MHO. YMMV.
tom in salem
Well-known member
I think you inadvertently hit the nail on the head with Lavin. Or maybe it was intentional, I don't know!
But my point is that he is not at the one extreme, incompetent, nor is he at the other extreme, great. He's a good coach and a very good, if not great, recruiter. But I think what happens is that when he does make mistakes on the court, some people say he is incompetent. And when his decisions work out, he comes across as great. Joe Torre, IMHO and as a life long Yankee fan, was not a great field strategist. But his decisions usually worked out and he was the right guy at the right time. Maybe, and I sincerely hope so, Lavin will turn out to be a great St. John's coach. But he's not there yet. And neither is he incompetent.
Jeesh, I hope that made sense!
You make very valid points; both Torre and Casey Stengel were considered very mediocre managers before coming to the Yankees.
Managers fill out lineup cards.
No comparison to what a BB coach has to do.
I think you inadvertently hit the nail on the head with Lavin. Or maybe it was intentional, I don't know!
But my point is that he is not at the one extreme, incompetent, nor is he at the other extreme, great. He's a good coach and a very good, if not great, recruiter. But I think what happens is that when he does make mistakes on the court, some people say he is incompetent. And when his decisions work out, he comes across as great. Joe Torre, IMHO and as a life long Yankee fan, was not a great field strategist. But his decisions usually worked out and he was the right guy at the right time. Maybe, and I sincerely hope so, Lavin will turn out to be a great St. John's coach. But he's not there yet. And neither is he incompetent.
Jeesh, I hope that made sense!
You make very valid points; both Torre and Casey Stengel were considered very mediocre managers before coming to the Yankees.
Managers fill out lineup cards.
No comparison to what a BB coach has to do.
Really? That's all there is to it? I don't think so.
I think you inadvertently hit the nail on the head with Lavin. Or maybe it was intentional, I don't know!
But my point is that he is not at the one extreme, incompetent, nor is he at the other extreme, great. He's a good coach and a very good, if not great, recruiter. But I think what happens is that when he does make mistakes on the court, some people say he is incompetent. And when his decisions work out, he comes across as great. Joe Torre, IMHO and as a life long Yankee fan, was not a great field strategist. But his decisions usually worked out and he was the right guy at the right time. Maybe, and I sincerely hope so, Lavin will turn out to be a great St. John's coach. But he's not there yet. And neither is he incompetent.
Jeesh, I hope that made sense!
You make very valid points; both Torre and Casey Stengel were considered very mediocre managers before coming to the Yankees.
Managers fill out lineup cards.
No comparison to what a BB coach has to do.
And many think a modern BB coach merely rolls the balls out; I think you are smarter than that. X's and O's in any sport is grossly overrated, it is the management of people that separate the field. The resurgence of SJU has NOTHING to do with any basketball strategy per se; the effort is 100% better as are role definitions.
beast of the east
Active member
If the reports are true, give credit to his grandmother, who hopped right on it and even spoke with or flew to NY to meet with Lavin. Way beyond basketball, I'd love to open the Alumni newsletter 20 years form now, and see that he's the VP of a major corporation, or some other off the court career success.
I think you inadvertently hit the nail on the head with Lavin. Or maybe it was intentional, I don't know!
But my point is that he is not at the one extreme, incompetent, nor is he at the other extreme, great. He's a good coach and a very good, if not great, recruiter. But I think what happens is that when he does make mistakes on the court, some people say he is incompetent. And when his decisions work out, he comes across as great. Joe Torre, IMHO and as a life long Yankee fan, was not a great field strategist. But his decisions usually worked out and he was the right guy at the right time. Maybe, and I sincerely hope so, Lavin will turn out to be a great St. John's coach. But he's not there yet. And neither is he incompetent.
Jeesh, I hope that made sense!
You make very valid points; both Torre and Casey Stengel were considered very mediocre managers before coming to the Yankees.
Managers fill out lineup cards.
No comparison to what a BB coach has to do.
And many think a modern BB coach merely rolls the balls out; I think you are smarter than that. X's and O's in any sport is grossly overrated, it is the management of people that separate the field. The resurgence of SJU has NOTHING to do with any basketball strategy per se; the effort is 100% better as are role definitions.
Couldn't have, and actually didn't, have said it any better. Thank you.
Just as players have strengths and weaknesses, so do coaches. The example I always go to is Lou Rossini at NYU who was a great coach of front court players but whose teams went nowhere when he lacked pass first point guards who could penetrate and kick the ball back out. Every time Lav has not included either Jordan or Branch in the line up I think we have paid dearly for it. Maybe Lav's problem is that he has too good a selective memory. He remembers PGIV as his starting point the past two years, not that he wasn't very good as a point guard.
You may always go to this example, but I don't think most peeps here know who Lou Rossini is, that NYU had a competitive program or that Happy Hairston didn't have anyone giving him the damn rock on the block!
But I do. And I thank you for that Violets reference.
As a kid living in the Bronx near NYU, I used to get upset with Gene Fisch for not getting Happy and Barry Kramer the ball. Ha!
"The National Invitation Tournament also was heading toward a hectic final round Saturday in New York's Madison Square Garden. While DUQUESNE and NEW MEXICO waited patiently for their opening quarter-final games Tuesday, second-seeded BRADLEY and unseeded NYU moved into the semifinals.
The biggest surprise was NYU. All season long the caliber of the Violets' performance had been up and down like an automated elevator. There were rumors of dissension on the squad and the players had been pilloried and taunted by a legion of critics. But last week NYU suddenly was the darling of the Garden galleries again. For once there was some semblance of order in the attack against Syracuse. After some typically bad moments with their old nemesis, the full-court press, and Syracuse sophomore Dave Bing's superb jump-shooting (he scored 31 points), the Violets got together. They moved the ball purposefully, Happy Hairston and Barry Kramer teamed up for 49 points, and NYU won 77-68.
Two nights later NYU was its old confused self for a while against top-seeded De Paul. Coach Ray Meyer, who coyly admitted that he had "heard about their troubles with a press," went at the Violets from the start with a smothering all-over defense. NYU fumbled, bumbled and threw the ball away, and the fast-breaking Blue Demons, led by Guards Jim Murphy and Dennis Freund, were ahead 43-37 at half time. It was time for a desperate measure, and NYU Coach Lou Rossini took it. He benched Guard Gene Fisch for sophomore Carlton Rooks, a less seasoned but more stable ball handler, moved Kramer to backcourt and Bob Patton up front. Almost immediately the Violets began to bloom. Hairston snatched rebounds away from De Paul's 6-foot-10 Dave Mills, Kramer broke the press with his dribbling, and eight straight points put the New Yorkers back in the ball game. After that all the Violets played like old friends. Hairston scored 28 points, Kramer 23 and De Paul went down 79-66."
http://si.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1075779/index.htm
tom in salem
Well-known member
Mal Graham.
TRabinowitz
Member
It looks like it was too early to call the team and coaching staff a failure, HOWEVER it is also too early to give any type of apology. If this team doesn't make the NCAA Tournament the season is a failure. Lets take a look at the finished product.
Remember all those Violets well (including Gene Fisch -- who looked a lot like our own Albie Swartz of a couple of years later; Patton, who looked like Kramer's twin; Carlton Rooks; and per Tom in Salem, Mal Graham, whom I remember being drafted by the Celtics). Also remember that SI pre-season #1 team having Ray Bennett, an imposing-looking 6'-9"center who, unfortunately, had the worst hands ever. Loved those Violets -- after all, they represented NYC -- as much as I loved the Redmen. Sadly, the program was "put down" just a few years later. Ah ... I know we're boring the hell out of our younger members, but those were exciting times.
TRabinowitz
Member
I just admitted that we were too quick to discard the season, so not sure what you mean. BUT right now we're not projected to make the Tournament and before the season we thought we'd be on much better track than 5-6 in the conference. And again, if we don't make the NCAA Tournament this season will be a failure, even with this nice stretch we've had.
Class of 72
Active member
Some of you discarded the team because your loyalty was based on NCAA or bust. I have been saying we are an NIT team since December so I am not as disappointed as much with the record as I am with the slow development of the team and recruiting. We went to one NIT in six years under Norm Roberts so one NCAA and two NIT's under Lavin is still a very big improvement.
We were never picked as a top 25 preseason team so there are teams out there that have disappointed their fans 10 fold like North Carolina and Marquette. Georgetown was a top 30 team. Villanova was not ranked. Go figure! Look at SMU and San Diego State. Both top 25 this week but not ranked in November. Our 0-5 strecth basically killed our at-large chance for an NCAA bid and throwing away the Gtown game by starting a walk-on and Balamou was coaching malpractice but apparently there were player issues that cost us a few games. Crap happens. Every game now is a must win for an NCAA bid or we have to miraculously win the BE. One thing is for sure and that is that this team will be in post season play one way or another. A month ago that was in doubt.