Anderson - is he really the guy ?

[monte]

 

Not 51% and 49% you? 

 

Allow me to rephrase:  You think the cannoli is half empty and I think it's half filled.

Seeing as my Grandfather owned a Pastry Shoppe in Brooklyn for many years, I completely understand now. 

 

[monte]

IMO good and accurate article from last year about CMA, from the perspective of an Arkansas sportswriter:

[URL]https://www.bestofarkansassports.com/mike-anderson-ups-and-down-arkansas-and-st-johns/[/URL]

 

[redfazed]

At this point, I think we've all seen enough of a CMA sample size here(also taking in to account what he did at Arkansas), to know what we have; a good man and a an above average coach.  His results here have been average, but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt due to what he did at Ark and where our program was when he took over. Unfortunately, it's going to take much more than an above average coach to resurrect  our program. It's going to take a dynamo. So, I've come to the conclusion that for as long as as CMA is here, we will be somewhere around where we are right now; when things break our way we'll dance (every few years), but more often then not we'll be on the outside looking in. This is not meant as a knock on CMA, but that old cliche about "high floor, low ceiling" has never been more apropos. His teams will always compete, but will often times come up just short. It's that good enough for you as a SJU fan, then CMA is your man. If it's not, then he's not. 



 

Is it good enough for CMA? That is a real issue.This is a guy who is used to coaching NCAA Tourney teams and now he's stuck in mediocre land. As I said, his resigning is a real possibility and the rumor is out there. Cragg extending his contract just gave him more leverage to negoiate for his next gig.


 

In his 8 years at Ark, his teams danced 3 times. Granted that's better then us, but he's hardly someone who came from a gig where his teams danced consistently. My sense is that if the northern/NY lifestyle is acceptable him and his wife, then he'll stick it out here. Although, as I mentioned before, he and his agent always do seem to have an ear out for the next best gig. 
 

And prior to Akansas: in his 5 years at Missouri, his teams danced 3 times, including an Elite 8 appearance. Prior to that, in his 4 years at UAB (a mid-major), he took the team to 3 NCAA Tourneys, including a Sweet Sixteen appearance. His teams have danced more often than they haven't.

 

[fordham96]

But that goes to a larger more negative trend with Coach.

Last 11 years (8 at Arkansas + 3 at SJU) he has danced just 3 times.  And none of those times has he advanced past the first weekend.  And his best seed was a 5.  That now includes a stretch of 5 of out the last 6 years.

Compare that to the first 9 years he made it 6 times at both UAB and Missouri and made it to an Elite 8 in 2009.

That is not a great trend and for those who thought that Arkansas fired him because they have unreal expectations need to take a look at what Musselman has done in 3 years and particularly the last 2 years (a 3 seed last year and projected to be about a 4 seed this year).  And the SEC is a monster conference now.  With great coaches.

Again retention is nice but it is less about that.  He retained the only 2 difference makers from last year's team.  Everyone else was replaceable.  The issue is overall talent.  They need to recruit better.  Period.  He can coach, he is no neophyte.  But he needs to upgrade the talent and that is not retention. In fact that may fly in the face of retention because if you can trade a outgoing transfer for a significantly better player then you do it.  You don't retain kids for the sake of continuity.

Ewing and Crean got hurt because their BEST players (Wahab, Wheeler, Johnson)) transferred out and are starters for major programs.  That would be the equivalent of SJU losing Posh and Champagnie.  That is different.

 

[Johnny Rapper]

Do not be surprised if Anderson resigns. The rumor is out there and it has some merit. Partly due to mediocre results here and partly for personal reasons (he and his wife have spent virtually their entire lives in the South, NYC has been a tough adjustment.)

If true—a big if—then this team needs to get Pitino. A lowkey type of hire is not going to cut it at this point in the program. It needs to be jolted back alive and a polarizing Pitino type is what is needed at this point.

By the way, I say all this as someone who likes Anderson. This isn’t a wishful-thinking type post. If he stays, fine by me.

I'm pretty certain this is a rumor without basis, perpetuated by a very small group of people who have also attacked Coach, staff, and administration on here and on Twitter.    As you are a supporter of Anderson I would say you have little reason to be concerned that he will resign.  



 

I am not "concerned" that he will resign and I heard the rumor from a source who actually likes CMA, as I do. It is not just the wingnuts who have heard this. And by the way, no one on this site appears to be looking at things from CMA's perspective. A guy from the south, who's used to coaching winning programs and has no roots in the NYC area. Not fun.

I did a ton of business in the south and in the midwest, and understand that those places are very different from NY.   We have the worst reputation, somewhat well founded, of any people in the US.   I can understand how many coaches would want no part of the harsh treatment by our fanbase and local media, which often is unhinged, rude, and downright nasty.   It's plausible to think that if Anderson knew what he was getting into, he might have passed.  However, once here, I think he basically ignores socially media, and doesn't bother to read what the local papers say about him.

Look Beast I truly understand you passion for the school/program and your support of this coaching staff, but “the worst reputation as people, fans, writers in the country” is a bit over the top. I guess you don’t frequent the fan sites of such teams as Bama Florida, North Carolina or any power 5 conference teams. The Bama hoops coach is crucified daily. Even after Saban lost in the NC game fans were on his case. Ed Ogeron has an undefeated national championship team and the next year fans and the media were calling for his head. It’s part if the deal Beast. That’s why Anderson makes millions. And you don’t believe that fans and writers don’t have a right to bitch after a season where the Johnnies were predicted to minimally land in the dance and yet have not beaten one of the top 5 teams in the conference all year? Come in now, this isn’t storybook hour. 

 

[redfazed]

But that goes to a larger more negative trend with Coach.

Last 11 years (8 at Arkansas + 3 at SJU) he has danced just 3 times.  And none of those times has he advanced past the first weekend.  And his best seed was a 5.  That now includes a stretch of 5 of out the last 6 years.

Compare that to the first 9 years he made it 6 times at both UAB and Missouri and made it to an Elite 8 in 2009.

That is not a great trend and for those who thought that Arkansas fired him because they have unreal expectations need to take a look at what Musselman has done in 3 years and particularly the last 2 years (a 3 seed last year and projected to be about a 4 seed this year).  And the SEC is a monster conference now.  With great coaches.

Again retention is nice but it is less about that.  He retained the only 2 difference makers from last year's team.  Everyone else was replaceable.  The issue is overall talent.  They need to recruit better.  Period.  He can coach, he is no neophyte.  But he needs to upgrade the talent and that is not retention. In fact that may fly in the face of retention because if you can trade a outgoing transfer for a significantly better player then you do it.  You don't retain kids for the sake of continuity.

Ewing and Crean got hurt because their BEST players (Wahab, Wheeler, Johnson)) transferred out and are starters for major programs.  That would be the equivalent of SJU losing Posh and Champagnie.  That is different.

 

"Last 11 years (8 at Arkansas + 3 at SJU) he has danced just 3 times.  And none of those times has he advanced past the first weekend."

Wrong. In 2 of his 3 Arkansas NCAA appearances, he got past the first round (including a win over Seton Hall). And in both of those cases, the next round opponent was UNC, who won the whole thing in one case.
 

 

[prjohnnies]

Agree with much of what you posted, fordham.  Where I disagree somewhat is that I think continuity matters for a program like ours, unless we are going to be able to recruit to a point where the talent level we bring in externally in place of those departing is significantly higher.  If there are kids developing the staff believes will make a leap, I'd rather have that kid stay all things being equal rather than bring someone in anew of a similar talent level.  The "new parts" coming in this year where supposed to be a significant upgrade from everyone who departed, and granted those who did depart all transferred "down" a level.  But on balance, I would have preferred to have at least 2 of those guys that left stay in place of what we brought in, because I think they are probably similar level players.  I don't want to knock any individual kids, but I think Williams and Earlington would have helped this team with their outside shooting and defensive abilities in the half court.

 

[fordham96]

Uh I said FIRST WEEKEND.  To get past first weekend you need to win the first 2 games or 3 games if you are part of the last 4 in play in.  He has not done that since Missouri.

Last 11 years (8 at Arkansas + 3 at SJU) he has danced just 3 times.  And none of those times has he advanced past the first weekend."

Wrong. In 2 of his 3 Arkansas NCAA appearances, he got past the first round (including a win over Seton Hall). And in both of those cases, the next round opponent was UNC, who won the whole thing in one case.

 

[monte]

At this point, I think we've all seen enough of a CMA sample size here(also taking in to account what he did at Arkansas), to know what we have; a good man and a an above average coach.  His results here have been average, but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt due to what he did at Ark and where our program was when he took over. Unfortunately, it's going to take much more than an above average coach to resurrect  our program. It's going to take a dynamo. So, I've come to the conclusion that for as long as as CMA is here, we will be somewhere around where we are right now; when things break our way we'll dance (every few years), but more often then not we'll be on the outside looking in. This is not meant as a knock on CMA, but that old cliche about "high floor, low ceiling" has never been more apropos. His teams will always compete, but will often times come up just short. It's that good enough for you as a SJU fan, then CMA is your man. If it's not, then he's not. 

 

This is a very fair post and view.  To the extent that I disagree (and only slightly) it is in two regards:

1.  After 25 years of cycling through coaches, I am fine with having a high character, professional coach who will stay here for awhile and bring a level of stability to the program as opposed to trying to catch lightening in a bottle (again).  SJU might get lucky and find the next big thing, but I just don't have a high degree of confidence in that option.  And that option usually comes with being willing to do things that SJU isn't willing to do.

2.  I don't think we have seen the last chapter of Mike Anderson's upside at St John's.  What happens in terms of player retention from this year to next year, any addition via the transfer portal, and what happens next year will go a long way towards clarifying things, at least for me.  I view this season in many ways as the real Year 1 of Anderson's tenure.  If he has good retention and good additions then next year he will be able to build on the foundation he laid this year.  If he does not have good retention and/or good additions, then that would be a problem.  But if he is able to keep moving forward, then I think having a program that wins steadily in NYC can give him a springboard to get a somewhat higher ceiling than you think.

Overall I don't think we are more than 2% apart - you're at 49% and I'm at 51%, is all.

I got so thrown off by the complicated math, that I forgot to address the other points in your post. Yes I agree that CMA brings stability, but is stability along with mediocrity acceptable to you? Again, if so then CMA is your guy. Me, Id rather try to catch lighting in a bottle and have a few nice tourney runs, then live with sustained mediocrity. As for CMA's ceiling, at his last stop he:
-coached and recruited  in his own back yard
-had state of the art facilities(the oft used excuse here)
-had a substantial budget to work with 
-recruited his fair share of top 100 talent 
-did not have to abide by all the rules and regulations that are imposed by SJU
-was not trying to resurrect and train wreck of a program
-was not dealing with the transfer portal as it exists today 

With all of that, he was let go for underperforming. And Eric Musselman, a good coach but not one to be confused with John Wooden, then did more at Ark in 3 years then CMA did in 8 years. Now, you are a lot smarter then me, so other then wishful thinking, tell me what it is that makes you so confident that CMA has a higher ceiling here then he had at Ark? Or even the same ceiling? I just don't see it, but glad to be proven wrong. 

 

[redfazed]

Uh I said FIRST WEEKEND.  To get past first weekend you need to win the first 2 games or 3 games if you are part of the last 4 in play in.  He has not done that since Missouri.

Last 11 years (8 at Arkansas + 3 at SJU) he has danced just 3 times.  And none of those times has he advanced past the first weekend."

Wrong. In 2 of his 3 Arkansas NCAA appearances, he got past the first round (including a win over Seton Hall). And in both of those cases, the next round opponent was UNC, who won the whole thing in one case.
 

I stand corrected. I read it too quickly as first round.

 

[Redmen88]

Why didn’t CMA ask the refs to review the clock at the end of the game?  This would have served the same purpose as our time out while preserving it.  It would have frozen the shooter and we could have passed the ball to half court and used our time out then.  Very surprised the clock was not reviewed even if it was not changed.  This rarely happens. Rookie move. 

 

[Knight]

I’ve criticized CMA a lot this season, but I felt his in-game coaching improved from earlier in the season.  Hopefully, next season the learning curve for coach (knowledge of his team and their abilities) and our players (should be easier to understand what coach wants done) will be flattened substantially.  That’s assuming a return of the vast number of eligible returnees.  Failing that, does anyone know where we can buy a good paddle.

 

[lawmanfan]

l

I got so thrown off by the complicated math, that I forgot to address the other points in your post. Yes I agree that CMA brings stability, but is stability along with mediocrity acceptable to you? Again, if so then CMA is your guy. Me, Id rather try to catch lighting in a bottle and have a few nice tourney runs, then live with sustained mediocrity. As for CMA's ceiling, at his last stop he:
-coached and recruited  in his own back yard
-had state of the art facilities(the oft used excuse here)
-had a substantial budget to work with 
-recruited his fair share of top 100 talent 
-did not have to abide by all the rules and regulations that are imposed by SJU
-was not trying to resurrect and train wreck of a program
-was not dealing with the transfer portal as it exists today 

With all of that, he was let go for underperforming. And Eric Musselman, a good coach but not one to be confused with John Wooden, then did more at Ark in 3 years then CMA did in 8 years. Now, you are a lot smarter then me, so other then wishful thinking, tell me what it is that makes you so confident that CMA has a higher ceiling here then he had at Ark? Or even the same ceiling? I just don't see it, but glad to be proven wrong. 

Like I said, your opinion is fair, reasonable, and has evidence to support it.  I can't say that you're wrong.  I also don't know that you're definitively right.  My near-term aspirations are definitely lower than yours.  Here is the list of our regular-season places in the league from 2003 - 2022:

(Jarvis)
14
(Norm)
12
15
11
14
13
13
(Lavin)
3
11
10
3
5
(Mullin)
10
8
9
7
(Anderson)
8
4
7

I believe that we have been among the bottom 3 or 4 teams in the league about 75% of the time over the last 20 years.  We've cracked the bottom end of the middle of the league a couple of times (one being this year) and made the bottom end of the top of the league (alternatively viewed as the top end of the middle of the league) a total of three times: twice in 5 years with Lavin (the first with Mike Dunlap coaching Norm's group of seniors) and last year with Anderson.

I just don't have the expectation of taking this long and sordid history and watching SJU basketball go into a phone booth and emerge minutes later as Superman.  At the moment Anderson has what is essentially an above-average finish for SJU in his first year working with leftovers, one of the three best finishes in 20 years in his second year while dealing with COVID, and one of the five or so best finishes in the last 20 years in his third year which is in many ways the first year he has a more representative Anderson team.

Do I love finishing someplace between 4th and 7th and not making the NCAAs?  No I do not.  Is it better than where the program has been in about 15 of the last 20 years?  You bet your bodega it is.  If that is all Anderson can ever achieve is he the answer here?  Of course not. 

So the remaining question is whether he can now improve from finishing somewhere in the middle of the league the last two years to moving into the top third of the league in the next two years.  To me, the jury is still out on that.  But I think - just my opinion - that if he does finish around the top 4 the next couple of years and make the NCAAs then his ceiling MAY rise because I think that will help him attract better talent from there forward.

No doubt that you have past performance and higher expectations on your side and I have some degree of hope or wishful thinking and more moderate expectations on my side.  But I think we both know he's going to get the chance to prove where in range of possible outcomes he can get us. 

 

[mm52]

i agree with LMF, but am in 66%

 

[stjohnnie75]

Why didn’t CMA ask the refs to review the clock at the end of the game?  This would have served the same purpose as our time out while preserving it.  It would have frozen the shooter and we could have passed the ball to half court and used our time out then.  Very surprised the clock was not reviewed even if it was not changed.  This rarely happens. Rookie move. 

I’ll watch again but I’m pretty sure the refs did take a quick look and did review the clock.

 

[Redmen88]

Why didn’t CMA ask the refs to review the clock at the end of the game?  This would have served the same purpose as our time out while preserving it.  It would have frozen the shooter and we could have passed the ball to half court and used our time out then.  Very surprised the clock was not reviewed even if it was not changed.  This rarely happens. Rookie move. 

I’ll watch again but I’m pretty sure the refs did take a quick look and did review the clock.


Those reviews usually take longer then a full timeout.  I don’t recall anything lengthy. He could have complained about the foul and then kept pointing at the clock.   The refs would have entertained a further review and we could have saved our time out and I do realize that the timeout was after the first make.  A lot at stake to not get a free time out. Jay Wright would have got a 5 minute break complaining. 

 

[paultzman]

Zach B on Anderson/SJ underachieving this season

https://nypost.com/2022/03/11/mike-...me-for-st-johns-failure-to-make-ncaa-tourney/

 

[Knight]

Ouch.
Zach with a twist of his knife.  /media/kunena/emoticons/sideways.png

 

[JohnnyFan]

Tough, but fair article.

I am supportive of Anderson coming back, but he did not have a good year coaching. To his own admission, this should have been a tournament team.   We appeared to finish the season without ever figuring out our strongest line-up or wisest substitution pattern.  I also think he missed the boat on Steph Smith, who finally made it out of the doghouse with just 4 games left in the season.  

As stated many times, the next 4-6 weeks will say a lot about the direction of our program.  I am hopeful CMA and the team can bounce back next year.
 

 

[PharmDJohnnie11]

N/M