Anderson - is he really the guy ?

[ohiofan]

Do not escalate this conversation any more than it is already. Thank you.

 

[Johnny Rapper]

Adam - for what it's worth, I think the transfer thing is overblown.

Anderson came into a program with a number of players who remained from the previous coach and a roster with some holes to fill.  He brought in a couple of recruits and tried to patch a couple of holes with JUCO transfers.  I'm assuming that you are counting guys like Moore, Cole, Toro and Griff as "his" players which I think is an overestimation of what they were intended for.  I guess if I put a donut on my car it's "my tire" but it's only there until I get an actual tire, and that's sort of what those players were.

The JUCOs didn't work out for various reasons, and he was clearly prepared to jettison them since they were only going to be temporary fixes anyway until he got "his" players in.  When transfer mania hit he clearly figured that he could improve on most of holdovers and he was also clearly honest with them about what he expected their roles to be.

It's wonderful that they are all doing well at lower-level programs, but you didn't see any of them getting scooped up by anyone higher than a mid-major which sort of tells you that the staff's evaluation of those players wasn't too far off.

So basically with the exception of Williams, I don't think there was a huge effort made to keep any of the players who left - it was a calculated decision to let them go and try to replace them with players who would be more of a fit and to try to improve the roster.

Now, if you want to criticize the production he got out of using the transfer portal to bring IN players, then that's fair.  You can see that the calculation was that bringing in players from Power 5 programs like Wheeler and Mathis, proven scorers and a big from mid-majors like Smith, Coburn and Soriano would give him the pieces he needed to replace what he lost, plus he had Pinzon (who was clearly expected to be a contributor) Stanley and Traore.

As it turned out Wheeler has been excellent, Soriano has been useful, he lost Pinzon for the year which has left us with Wusu at the point where he doesn't belong, and Mathis, Smith, and Coburn have been inconsistent from a production standpoint.  So ultimately the transfer portal wasn't as successful as we would have liked to bring in players, and that's probably the only reason we're talking about the transfers out. 

Anyway I don't view the transfers out as anything other than a coach creating roster space to bring in more of the guys he wants, which as Kranmars pointed out has been going on forever.  Unfortunately the guys he wanted haven't gotten us to where we'd like to be this year.

 

What you have said here puts the emphasis on Anderson’s lack of success in recruiting HS talent to date. While Posh was a proven commodity, Champ has been a pleasant surprise (who may hat reached his ceiling), and the last three, while serviceable editions by no means are impact players. He must improve his HS recruiting if he hopes to have any success in the near future. An occasional border line 4 star recruit won’t cut it. 

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

 So you think Burrell and Hardy were better players than Posh and Champ?

So are you saying they are not? If that’s the case and Lavin did way more with less talented players, then clearly Anderson’s coaching is suspect. You can’t have it both ways. 

You are mixing up different topics. And I note that you failed to answer the question.

Lavin did a great job his first year here. I said at the time and I've said since that it was a mistake to fire him. But that does not mean Norm brought in better players than Anderson. You made that assertion and you have failed to defend it.

We know how Champ and Posh have performed. Since you brought up a Norm transfer, we also have seen how Wheeler has performed. Unfortunately through no one's fault, we haven't seen how good Pinzon will be. We will see how Storr performs and how Stanley and Nwyie and others develop. Norm's players were seniors when Lavin had success with them. 

In no way at this point do I see that Norm brought in better players than Anderson.
 

 

[beast of the east]

Just for reference, because I keep seeing the transfer excuse being used here and elsewhere: last off-season 1,464 players transfered to new teams. There are 358 teams, so on average that's 4.08 players transferring out per team. St. John's lost 8 players last year to the portal.

To anyone who continues to use the transfer excuse, please provide a list of teams who lost 8 or more players to the portal last year. Again, there are 358 teams, so going by your logic there must be a lot of other teams who were in a similar situation. I'll wait. 



 

I'm not saying this as an excuse, because I'm certainly not letting Anderson off the hook. But I do find it interesting that half of those 8 transfers weren't guys he recruited. I really feel like he got hit with a perfect storm of the transfer rules loosening. You do have to wonder if those kids would have left the school immediately when CMA came on board, if the free transfer rule was in place. We will never know obviously.

Several indisputable facts:

1) Each of the 8 players that went into the portal and transferred ended up at lower level conferences.
2) Some were obviously concerned that their minutes would diminish depending on who would come in.
3) We had had more success than anticipated, and the performance and reputation of some of the guys going out had been elevated in their time here.
4) New rules created literally an unprecedented opportunity to transfer without sitting out a year and possibly a window that could close..
5) Julian's elongated mediocre play (which did not occur last year) and Posh getting injured at a critical point in the season has hurt our chances tremendously.

It is quite possible though that last year's team would not have performed as well in this year's Big East conference, but that is speculative.

With regard to Lavin, there was a widely participated in Redmen.com electronic poll, and more than 80% voted for him to come back after year 5.

With regard to Mullin, there were some who questioned the hire but the was a generally positive vibe here, but all overwhelmingly cheered the slice hire from Calipari and Kentucky as a brilliant move.   Similarly, all were in favor of Matt being hired after his success at Iowa St (?)


. 

 

[bucketshardy]

Proud Alumn- so... CMA led the nation last year in lost transfers? Can't find any other teams who lost 8 or more? Not even one, out of 358 teams? Wow. 

Thanks for confirming, have a good one bud. 

I gave you the link. Numerous other teams lost 8 or more players last year. For your own good, do some research before you post. 

Nope, you gave me a massive research project, a database with hundreds of players, with zero evidence.

So this got me interested.... 

Not that big of an undertaking- only variable is relying on the integrity of Verbal Commits Data.... but did a some eye checking and a couple of the teams i know checked out. Quick Pivot of the data:

57 D1 teams had 8 or more transfers
163 teams had 5 or more transfers....

Crazy.... whats even Crazier.... UT Martin had 17! kids transfer lol
 

 

[ADORAZ]

I do think it's worth mentioning that although Posh's injury has hurt this team, and although I do think he was a great addition to our team, his injury may need to be factored into CMA's recruiting. He was injured at the time of his recruitment and concerns over that caused his ranking to tumble. I'm unsure if this current injury is related to his high school injury(ies), so maybe I'm wrong about that, but seemed to be a genuine concern back then and maybe it will end up being one throughout his St. John's career.

Again, not saying he wasn't a great pickup. He was. I'm just saying that this may have been somewhat predictable and we should have a solid backup in place.

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

I gave you the link. Numerous other teams lost 8 or more players last year. For your own good, do some research before you post. 

Nope, you gave me a massive research project, a database with hundreds of players, with zero evidence. Tell me some teams. Go ahead. I legitimately don't think there are any based on my research, but if I'm wrong I will admit to it. This has always been a genuine question from me, and it's pretty straightforward.

If you don't prove your statement (should be very simple to) frankly you should be banned for spreading intentionally false misinformation and wasting everyone's time.

I've asked three times now, it's a pretty simple question. You're on the defense, defend your guy. Start listing teams, even just one would help.

I'll note your inability to look at the website. Take it alphabetically. I'll just look at the Ts:

Tarleton State- 10 transfers
TCU- 10 transfers
Tennessee State-  9 transfers
Texas A&M- 9 transfers
Texas Corpus Christie- 12 transfers
Texas Tech had 7 transfers, so just missed.

How about the As:
Alcorn State- 10 transfers
Arizona- 8 transfers
Arizona State-9 transfers

You can keep going yourself, as you are the one posting wrong information ...

 

[fuchsia]

I do think it's worth mentioning that although Posh's injury has hurt this team, and although I do think he was a great addition to our team, his injury may need to be factored into CMA's recruiting. He was injured at the time of his recruitment and concerns over that caused his ranking to tumble. I'm unsure if this current injury is related to his high school injury(ies), so maybe I'm wrong about that, but seemed to be a genuine concern back then and maybe it will end up being one throughout his St. John's career.

Again, not saying he wasn't a great pickup. He was. I'm just saying that this may have been somewhat predictable and we should have a solid backup in place.

Shoulding on ourselves when our backup point is out with Covid related heart issues does not feel right.

I am more upset about loss of game experience development for next year.
 

 

[beast of the east]

I do think it's worth mentioning that although Posh's injury has hurt this team, and although I do think he was a great addition to our team, his injury may need to be factored into CMA's recruiting. He was injured at the time of his recruitment and concerns over that caused his ranking to tumble. I'm unsure if this current injury is related to his high school injury(ies), so maybe I'm wrong about that, but seemed to be a genuine concern back then and maybe it will end up being one throughout his St. John's career.

Again, not saying he wasn't a great pickup. He was. I'm just saying that this may have been somewhat predictable and we should have a solid backup in place.

Here's a name that's a blast from the past: Wendell Ladner gained great popularity by throwing his body all over the court.  I seem to remember once he dove over a scorer's table and some glass shattered and he was cut by shards.

I agree, Posh was not as highly recruited as he could have been because of injuries in HS.   But honestly, the lack of recruitment appeared more to be lack of exposure than anything else, right?

 

[lawmanfan]

Adam and Alum:
In case you missed the shot across your bow from OhioFan:
Stop.
Thanks

 

[ADORAZ]

Proud Alumn- so... CMA led the nation last year in lost transfers? Can't find any other teams who lost 8 or more? Not even one, out of 358 teams? Wow. 

Thanks for confirming, have a good one bud. 

I gave you the link. Numerous other teams lost 8 or more players last year. For your own good, do some research before you post. 

Nope, you gave me a massive research project, a database with hundreds of players, with zero evidence.

So this got me interested.... 

Not that big of an undertaking- only variable is relying on the integrity of Verbal Commits Data.... but did a some eye checking and a couple of the teams i know checked out. Quick Pivot of the data:

57 D1 teams had 8 or more transfers
163 teams had 5 or more transfers....

Crazy.... whats even Crazier.... UT Martin had 17! kids transfer lol

 

Thanks for researching that. It was always a genuine question from me as I hadn't seen other teams with 8 or more transfers listed previously. It does look like nearly all of those teams (including UT Martin) had totally new coaches and/or aren't Power teams, but yes you're correct, there are a lot of teams who had 8+ transfers.

Regardless, having 8 transfers while the national average is 4.08 is still concerning, and what's much more of an issue is our current transfers haven't offset the transfers that we lost (as others have mentioned). If we were 4th place in the Big East again then I couldn't care less how many players left as long as we were winning. Unlike a Marquette though, who someone mentioned previously, that obviously hasn't been the case for us.

 

[NCJohnnie]

Adam wrote:I do think it's worth mentioning that although Posh's injury has hurt this team, and although I do think he was a great addition to our team, his injury may need to be factored into CMA's recruiting. He was injured at the time of his recruitment and concerns over that caused his ranking to tumble. I'm unsure if this current injury is related to his high school injury(ies), so maybe I'm wrong about that, but seemed to be a genuine concern back then and maybe it will end up being one throughout his St. John's career.

Again, not saying he wasn't a great pickup. He was. I'm just saying that this may have been somewhat predictable and we should have a solid backup in place.


Adam, Posh's high school injury was a broken arm which made him miss most of his junior year and drop some in the rankings. He had a very strong senior year and wound up ranked as a 4 star. Main point is high school injury has nothing to do with his current injury though suffice it to say, the speed/style at which he plays will make it likely he is dinged up from time to time as he is now. 
St. John's signee Posh Alexander nearly gave it all up (nypost.com)    

 

[ADORAZ]

Adam and Alum:
In case you missed the shot across your bow from OhioFan:
Stop.
Thanks
 

Which message of mine after OhioFan's do you have an issue with? 

I responded to Brian who provided a list, which I appreciated as it answered my question. I was on my phone and didn't have time to sort through a database. I have no issue admitting when I state something wrong, and said from the start I very well could be wrong as I genuinely didn't know if others teams had 8+ transfers. With Brian's reply I wanted to confirm that there are in fact other teams with 8+ transfers. That's great information for future reference and I'm glad to have gotten something out of this discussion.

 

[monte]

UCONN lost the best player in the Big East for a chunk of last season and survived. Depaul has lost one of the best players in the Big East, and their leader,
for a month now. Other teams have had injuries to key players. Yeah it sucked fo loose Posh for the past couple of games, especially since we played the 2 best teams in the league, but stuff happens and you gotta have a plan B. I said at the beginning of the year that 2 of my biggest concerns where our lack of low post presence, and a secondary ball handler. Well, there ya go. 

 

[ADORAZ]

Adam wrote:I do think it's worth mentioning that although Posh's injury has hurt this team, and although I do think he was a great addition to our team, his injury may need to be factored into CMA's recruiting. He was injured at the time of his recruitment and concerns over that caused his ranking to tumble. I'm unsure if this current injury is related to his high school injury(ies), so maybe I'm wrong about that, but seemed to be a genuine concern back then and maybe it will end up being one throughout his St. John's career.

Again, not saying he wasn't a great pickup. He was. I'm just saying that this may have been somewhat predictable and we should have a solid backup in place.


Adam, Posh's high school injury was a broken arm which made him miss most of his junior year and drop some in the rankings. He had a very strong senior year and wound up ranked as a 4 star. Main point is high school injury has nothing to do with his current injury though suffice it to say, the speed/style at which he plays will make it likely he is dinged up from time to time as he is now. 
St. John's signee Posh Alexander nearly gave it all up (nypost.com)    

Thanks for that, I wasn't sure if it was related to his past injuries but good to know that it wasn't. Not sure which source you're referencing where he ended as a 4 star (on 247 Composite he's listed as a 3 star), but regardless that doesn't matter because like Champ he's a player who has clearly outperformed their ranking and was a great pickup.

As I've always said, we just need a lot more of those recruits, whether they be 4 stars or players who outperform their ranking.

 

[Johnny Rapper]

 So you think Burrell and Hardy were better players than Posh and Champ?

So are you saying they are not? If that’s the case and Lavin did way more with less talented players, then clearly Anderson’s coaching is suspect. You can’t have it both ways. 

You are mixing up different topics. And I note that you failed to answer the question.

Lavin did a great job his first year here. I said at the time and I've said since that it was a mistake to fire him. But that does not mean Norm brought in better players than Anderson. You made that assertion and you have failed to defend it.

We know how Champ and Posh have performed. Since you brought up a Norm transfer, we also have seen how Wheeler has performed. Unfortunately through no one's fault, we haven't seen how good Pinzon will be. We will see how Storr performs and how Stanley and Nwyie and others develop. Norm's players were seniors when Lavin had success with them. 

In no way at this point do I see that Norm brought 


 

At that time period, Norm certainly brought in better recruits overall then Anderson. There were several players whose names I can’t remember aside from Hardy etc who to date have had far more success then Anderson’s recruits. You are talking about a group of kids that beat several top 10 teams. Lavin did a fine job but the talent had to be there. Again, if Anderson’s recruits over all are superior why are his results so inferior? You conveniently don’t want to answer that question in your continual defense of Anderson. 

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

 So you think Burrell and Hardy were better players than Posh and Champ?

So are you saying they are not? If that’s the case and Lavin did way more with less talented players, then clearly Anderson’s coaching is suspect. You can’t have it both ways. 

You are mixing up different topics. And I note that you failed to answer the question.

Lavin did a great job his first year here. I said at the time and I've said since that it was a mistake to fire him. But that does not mean Norm brought in better players than Anderson. You made that assertion and you have failed to defend it.

We know how Champ and Posh have performed. Since you brought up a Norm transfer, we also have seen how Wheeler has performed. Unfortunately through no one's fault, we haven't seen how good Pinzon will be. We will see how Storr performs and how Stanley and Nwyie and others develop. Norm's players were seniors when Lavin had success with them. 

In no way at this point do I see that Norm brought 



 

At that time period, Norm certainly brought in better recruits overall then Anderson. There were several players whose names I can’t remember aside from Hardy etc who to date have had far more success then Anderson’s recruits. You are talking about a group of kids that beat several top 10 teams. Lavin did a fine job but the talent had to be there. Again, if Anderson’s recruits over all are superior why are his results so inferior? You conveniently don’t want to answer that question in your continual defense of Anderson. 

At what time period? Who are these better Norm players? What do you mean "to date"? 

 

[NCJohnnie]

Adam wrote:
Thanks for that, I wasn't sure if it was related to his past injuries but good to know that it wasn't. Not sure which source you're referencing where he ended as a 4 star (on 247 Composite he's listed as a 3 star), but regardless that doesn't matter because like Champ he's a player who has clearly outperformed their ranking and was a great pickup.

As I've always said, we just need a lot more of those recruits, whether they be 4 stars or players who outperform their ranking.

Adam, he was a borderline 4 star - 4 star on some, 3 star on others but generally a top 125 player on all. See article at time of signing.
Four-star G Posh Alexander commits to St. John’s (usatodayhss.com) 

 

[beast of the east]

We need better players, everyone on here agrees.   We can shut this down now tho till next year, because CMA is not going anywhere.

 

[ADORAZ]

Adam wrote:
Thanks for that, I wasn't sure if it was related to his past injuries but good to know that it wasn't. Not sure which source you're referencing where he ended as a 4 star (on 247 Composite he's listed as a 3 star), but regardless that doesn't matter because like Champ he's a player who has clearly outperformed their ranking and was a great pickup.

As I've always said, we just need a lot more of those recruits, whether they be 4 stars or players who outperform their ranking.

Adam, he was a borderline 4 star - 4 star on some, 3 star on others but generally a top 125 player on all. See article at time of signing.
Four-star G Posh Alexander commits to St. John’s (usatodayhss.com) 

Gotcha, I'm aware of that at the time of his signing (article is prior to his senior year), but you said "He had a very strong senior year and wound up ranked as a 4 star." On 247 Composite, which averages all of the recruiting rankings, he's listed as #300 nationally and 3 star. I don't think he ever returned to 4 star status as a recruit, that's all I was getting at there.

Regardless that doesn't matter. Him and Champ were great pickups and their HS rankings were clearly off (everyone can agree on that). I was just curious if his current injury was related to his HS injury which is why I asked initially. Glad that it isn't, so hopefully it won't be something that lingers.

As Beast said, bottom line is we need better players. I don't care if they're 4 stars, 3 stars who outperform their ranking, solid transfers, JUCOs, etc. We just need better players.