Anderson - is he really the guy ?

[fordham96]

To take it one step further let's say hypothetically SJU hired Pitino.  Do you really think we should hold Pitino to the SAME standard that SHU held Willard?  I am not saying Anderson is equal to Pitino, because he is not.  But by the same token Willard did not have Anderson's background either.

But my point is the coach is what you need to look at.  If Pitino had a 46-37 overall with a 20-30 conference record I would consider it a failure at that point, period.  Pretty significant failure for that matter.  But you could argue same facilities, same negatives, same school.  You could argue "But look at Willard and his first 5 years...."  

And I would say, "I don't give a sh**.  You don't go out and hire Rick Pitino or a Mike Anderson for that matter so you can compare him to the coach at SHU.  That's the point.

Shaka Smart did not get hired at Marquette to go on a 5-6 year rebuilding trek.  

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

It was a mistake to fire Lavin. Just like it would be a mistake to listen to the armchair experts here and fire Anderson. 

Lavin and Mullin didn’t have to deal with the unrestricted transfer portal, so the number of transfers is not comparable. 

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

Even Norm Roberts who is generally believed by many to be the worst coach in school history had better recruiting classes then Anderson. 

 

What are you talking about? Who were these Norm recruits that were better players than Champ and Posh?

 

[fordham96]

I said before I had no problem moving on from Lavin, the issue was the replacement.  But because Mullin failed that does not justify keeping the previous coach.

Same with Georgetown, the Ewing failure does not necessarily mean letting JT3 go was a mistake.  

My bigger problem is the people who DID advocate for letting Lavin go and suddenly decide NOW we have to have patience.

Proud Alumn post=457846
It was a mistake to fire Lavin. Just like it would be a mistake to listen to the armchair experts here and fire Anderson. 

Lavin and Mullin didn’t have to deal with the unrestricted transfer portal, so the number of transfers is not comparable. 

 

[ADORAZ]

Just for reference, because I keep seeing the transfer excuse being used here and elsewhere: last off-season 1,464 players transfered to new teams. There are 358 teams, so on average that's 4.08 players transferring out per team. St. John's lost 8 players last year to the portal.

To anyone who continues to use the transfer excuse, please provide a list of teams who lost 8 or more players to the portal last year. Again, there are 358 teams, so going by your logic there must be a lot of other teams who were in a similar situation. I'll wait. 
 

 

[room112]

Just for reference, because I keep seeing the transfer excuse being used here and elsewhere: last off-season 1,464 players transfered to new teams. There are 358 teams, so on average that's 4.08 players transferring out per team. St. John's lost 8 players last year to the portal.

To anyone who continues to use the transfer excuse, please provide a list of teams who lost 8 or more players to the portal last year. Again, there are 358 teams, so going by your logic there must be a lot of other teams who were in a similar situation. I'll wait. 

 

I'm not saying this as an excuse, because I'm certainly not letting Anderson off the hook. But I do find it interesting that half of those 8 transfers weren't guys he recruited. I really feel like he got hit with a perfect storm of the transfer rules loosening. You do have to wonder if those kids would have left the school immediately when CMA came on board, if the free transfer rule was in place. We will never know obviously.

 

[gman]

Even Norm Roberts who is generally believed by many to be the worst coach in school history had better recruiting classes then Anderson. 

 

What are you talking about? Who were these Norm recruits that were better players than Champ and Posh?

Wasn't Champ unrated?  He appears to be in 247.  Roberts 2007 class was 33rd nationally and his 2006 class was 37th.  Burrell (48) and DJ (138) were highly rated in 2007 and Derwin Kitchen and Calhoun were also top 150 in 2006.  Norm landed a fair share of top 200 players, but not many panned out.

 

[kranmars]

It was a mistake to fire Lavin. Just like it would be a mistake to listen to the armchair experts here and fire Anderson. 

Lavin and Mullin didn’t have to deal with the unrestricted transfer portal, so the number of transfers is not comparable. 

The new transfer phenomenon can be used as a counterpoint as well.

You can make up for recruiting a player who does not fit into your system a replace him someone who does.

It does not always have to be a negative. It is not as if recruits haven’t been nudged out the door before to make room for a higher ranked player (and I am not condoning the ethics behind that practice).

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

Even Norm Roberts who is generally believed by many to be the worst coach in school history had better recruiting classes then Anderson. 

 

What are you talking about? Who were these Norm recruits that were better players than Champ and Posh?

Wasn't Champ unrated?  He appears to be in 247.  Roberts 2007 class was 33rd nationally and his 2006 class was 37th.  Burrell (48) and DJ (138) were highly rated in 2007 and Derwin Kitchen and Calhoun were also top 150 in 2006.  Norm landed a fair share of top 200 players, but not many panned out.

And you failed to identify any Norm recruits who were better players than Champ and Posh. Thank you. 

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

Just for reference, because I keep seeing the transfer excuse being used here and elsewhere: last off-season 1,464 players transfered to new teams. There are 358 teams, so on average that's 4.08 players transferring out per team. St. John's lost 8 players last year to the portal.

To anyone who continues to use the transfer excuse, please provide a list of teams who lost 8 or more players to the portal last year. Again, there are 358 teams, so going by your logic there must be a lot of other teams who were in a similar situation. I'll wait. 

 

That you don’t realize the silliness of equating the situations of all 358 teams is amazing. But lots of teams had 6 or more transfers. Here, look for yourself: [URL]https://www.verbalcommits.com/transfers/2021[/URL]

Just looking at the number of transfers doesn’t tell much. What were the level of players and impact for each team?  IMO we only lost one player to transfer who could have made a difference this year, compared to who transferred in. 

But that wasn’t the point of bringing up the transfer portal. Someone above compared the number of transfers to the number during Lavin’s and Mullin’s years. The point is that is a deficient comparison because Lavin and Mullin didn’t have the new fransfer rule. 

 

[ADORAZ]

Just for reference, because I keep seeing the transfer excuse being used here and elsewhere: last off-season 1,464 players transfered to new teams. There are 358 teams, so on average that's 4.08 players transferring out per team. St. John's lost 8 players last year to the portal.

To anyone who continues to use the transfer excuse, please provide a list of teams who lost 8 or more players to the portal last year. Again, there are 358 teams, so going by your logic there must be a lot of other teams who were in a similar situation. I'll wait. 



 

That you don’t realize the silliness of equating the situations of all 358 teams is amazing. But lots of teams had 6 or more transfers. Here, look for yourself: [URL]https://www.verbalcommits.com/transfers/2021[/URL]

Just looking at the number of transfers doesn’t tell much. What were the level of players and impact for each team?  IMO we only lost one player to transfer who could have made a difference this year, compared to who transferred in. 

But that wasn’t the point of bringing up the transfer portal. Someone above compared the number of transfers to the number during Lavin’s and Mullin’s years. The point is that is a deficient comparison because Lavin and Mullin didn’t have the new fransfer rule. 

Reread my post, we lost 8 players. Not 6. Please list some teams who lost 8 or more players.

Let's stick to facts, a few more:
1. All of those players decided to play 1-2 seasons for CMA yet still transferred
2. Many, many colleges have first/second/third year/hot seat coaches, yet somehow they didn't lose as many players as CMA
3. Most of CMA's own players transferred

While I do see the mass exodus last year (worst in the nation out of 358 teams??) as a huge red flag, this upcoming off-season will be more telling. If he doesn't lose anyone (or only a few role players) then that'd be pretty significant.

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

That you don’t realize the silliness of equating the situations of all 358 teams is amazing. But lots of teams had 6 or more transfers. Here, look for yourself: [URL]https://www.verbalcommits.com/transfers/2021[/URL]

Just looking at the number of transfers doesn’t tell much. What were the level of players and impact for each team?  IMO we only lost one player to transfer who could have made a difference this year, compared to who transferred in. 

But that wasn’t the point of bringing up the transfer portal. Someone above compared the number of transfers to the number during Lavin’s and Mullin’s years. The point is that is a deficient comparison because Lavin and Mullin didn’t have the new fransfer rule. 

Reread my post, we lost 8 players. Not 6. Please list some teams who lost 8 or more players.

Let's stick to facts, a few more:
1. All of those players decided to play 1-2 seasons for CMA yet still transferred
2. Many, many colleges have first/second/third year/hot seat coaches, yet somehow they didn't lose as many players as CMA
3. Most of CMA's own players transferred

While I do see the mass exodus last year (worst in the nation out of 358 teams??) as a huge red flag, this upcoming off-season will be more telling. If he doesn't lose anyone (or only a few role players) then that'd be pretty significant.

Lots of misinformation here from you. Please provide your analysis  that "Most" of "CMA's own players" transfers. What do you mean by "own players"? 
Please provide your meaning of "worst in nation out of 358 teams". Do you measure "worst" by the number of transfers? Because other teams had as many or more transfers. Do you mean by the talent level of the transfers? Please provide your analysis that we lost the most talented players out of the 358 schools, if that is what you mean. Please provide your basis for implying that Anderson was on the "hot seat" during the last offseason.
Or do you just throw a lot of random thoughts on the wall without carefully considering accuracy?

 

[Johnny Rapper]

Even Norm Roberts who is generally believed by many to be the worst coach in school history had better recruiting classes then Anderson. 

 

What are you talking about? Who were these Norm recruits that were better players than Champ and Posh?

i guess you didn’t follow St. John’s back then and clearly forgot how Lavin took Norms recruits like Burrell and Hardy and won several games against top ten teams. Champ and Posh are fine players but have not sniffed the success that that team had. 

 

[ADORAZ]

Proud Alumn- so... CMA led the nation last year in lost transfers? Can't find any other teams who lost 8 or more? Not even one, out of 358 teams? Wow. 

Thanks for confirming, have a good one bud. 

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

Proud Alumn- so... CMA led the nation last year in lost transfers? Can't find any other teams who lost 8 or more? Not even one, out of 358 teams? Wow. 

Thanks for confirming, have a good one bud. 

I gave you the link. Numerous other teams lost 8 or more players last year. For your own good, do some research before you post. 

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

Even Norm Roberts who is generally believed by many to be the worst coach in school history had better recruiting classes then Anderson. 

 

What are you talking about? Who were these Norm recruits that were better players than Champ and Posh?

i guess you didn’t follow St. John’s back then and clearly forgot how Lavin took Norms recruits like Burrell and Hardy and won several games against top ten teams. Champ and Posh are fine players but have not sniffed the success that that team had. 

So you think Burrell and Hardy were better players than Posh and Champ?

 

[fordham96]

That's correct.  It is universal.  It is not just happening at SJU and SJU has just as much right to make use of the portal as other schools.  If they don't whose fault is that?

So because schools A, B and C got better thru the portal but SJU didn't that shows that SJU is at a disadvantage? 

Marquette got a new HC and had to replace 9 players.  Including in that were 3 starters who were all considered really good BE players.  DJ Carton was a top 50 recruit at Ohio St and considered a coup when he transferred to Marquette.  Dawson Garcia was a stud recruit who transferred to UNC and was a starter.  Theo John is as old as Moses but still had a year left and decided to go to Duke.  I would argue Marquette lost FAR more than SJU and had to the added issue of a coaching change.  


kranmars post=457863

The new transfer phenomenon can be used as a counterpoint as well.

You can make up for recruiting a player who does not fit into your system a replace him someone who does.

It does not always have to be a negative. It is not as if recruits haven’t been nudged out the door before to make room for a higher ranked player (and I am not condoning the ethics behind that practice).

 

[Johnny Rapper]

Even Norm Roberts who is generally believed by many to be the worst coach in school history had better recruiting classes then Anderson. 

 

What are you talking about? Who were these Norm recruits that were better players than Champ and Posh?

i guess you didn’t follow St. John’s back then and clearly forgot how Lavin took Norms recruits like Burrell and Hardy and won several games against top ten teams. Champ and Posh are fine players but have not sniffed the success that that team had. 

So you think Burrell and Hardy were better players than Posh and Champ?

So are you saying they are not? If that’s the case and Lavin did way more with less talented players, then clearly Anderson’s coaching is suspect. You can’t have it both ways. 

 

[ADORAZ]

Proud Alumn- so... CMA led the nation last year in lost transfers? Can't find any other teams who lost 8 or more? Not even one, out of 358 teams? Wow. 

Thanks for confirming, have a good one bud. 

I gave you the link. Numerous other teams lost 8 or more players last year. For your own good, do some research before you post. 

Nope, you gave me a massive research project, a database with hundreds of players, with zero evidence. Tell me some teams. Go ahead. I legitimately don't think there are any based on my research, but if I'm wrong I will admit to it. This has always been a genuine question from me, and it's pretty straightforward.

If you don't prove your statement (should be very simple to) frankly you should be banned for spreading intentionally false misinformation and wasting everyone's time.

I've asked three times now, it's a pretty simple question. You're on the defense, defend your guy. Start listing teams, even just one would help.

 

[lawmanfan]

Adam - for what it's worth, I think the transfer thing is overblown.

Anderson came into a program with a number of players who remained from the previous coach and a roster with some holes to fill.  He brought in a couple of recruits and tried to patch a couple of holes with JUCO transfers.  I'm assuming that you are counting guys like Moore, Cole, Toro and Griff as "his" players which I think is an overestimation of what they were intended for.  I guess if I put a donut on my car it's "my tire" but it's only there until I get an actual tire, and that's sort of what those players were.

The JUCOs didn't work out for various reasons, and he was clearly prepared to jettison them since they were only going to be temporary fixes anyway until he got "his" players in.  When transfer mania hit he clearly figured that he could improve on most of holdovers and he was also clearly honest with them about what he expected their roles to be.

It's wonderful that they are all doing well at lower-level programs, but you didn't see any of them getting scooped up by anyone higher than a mid-major which sort of tells you that the staff's evaluation of those players wasn't too far off.

So basically with the exception of Williams, I don't think there was a huge effort made to keep any of the players who left - it was a calculated decision to let them go and try to replace them with players who would be more of a fit and to try to improve the roster.

Now, if you want to criticize the production he got out of using the transfer portal to bring IN players, then that's fair.  You can see that the calculation was that bringing in players from Power 5 programs like Wheeler and Mathis, proven scorers and a big from mid-majors like Smith, Coburn and Soriano would give him the pieces he needed to replace what he lost, plus he had Pinzon (who was clearly expected to be a contributor) Stanley and Traore.

As it turned out Wheeler has been excellent, Soriano has been useful, he lost Pinzon for the year which has left us with Wusu at the point where he doesn't belong, and Mathis, Smith, and Coburn have been inconsistent from a production standpoint.  So ultimately the transfer portal wasn't as successful as we would have liked to bring in players, and that's probably the only reason we're talking about the transfers out. 

Anyway I don't view the transfers out as anything other than a coach creating roster space to bring in more of the guys he wants, which as Kranmars pointed out has been going on forever.  Unfortunately the guys he wanted haven't gotten us to where we'd like to be this year.