Anderson - is he really the guy ?

[lawmanfan]

The question is not merely what record would SJU fans reasonably expect at this point?  And then simply say the Pitt loss is the only one that can reasonably be said they should have expected to win and didn't.  That overlooks Creighton by 23, they were picked higher then Creighton, why should SJU fans not expect to at least be competitive if not win that game.  Also it cannot simply be about what can one reasonably expect based on current talent level.

For example if you went thru Norm Roberts last year(or many of his seasons) how many games did Norm Roberts lose where SJU was clearly the BETTER team.  Not many.  So what?  So in some ways he met expectations.  I guess that means he should've been kept.

The better question is WHY ISNT SJU BETTER OR AS GOOD AS SOME OF THESE TEAMS WE DON'T EXPECT TO BEAT ANYMORE?

Why isn't he recruiting better?  At what point can we expect to beat some of these teams on the road?  Why wasn't the schedule more challenging and if so that 12-8 record would probably look even worse.  Yes they basically beat, except for Pitt, the teams they were supposed to beat but most of them were awful and some of the wins were way too close, why?  Marquette swept Seton Hall, why couldn't SJU?  Why couldn't they split with Creighton and PC?  

These are all fair questions that don't get answered simply by saying, "Well we're basically winning the games that most expected and losing the games that most expect."

.


 

That's a totally fair point. 

On the two side-issues:  (1) I always felt that both Norm's teams and Mullin's teams managed to wind up 3-4 games worse than I though they should be; and (2) just about everybody underestimated Creighton, so that is what it is (and I am long on record that McDermott is possibly my favorite coach and it doesn't surprise me at all that they surprised people).  Also we did beat Seton Hall on the road (honorable mention to the UConn game as well).

On the main point, if we had another strong non-conference game or two then my expectations for the record may have changed depending on what/when/where those games were.  Which brings us to what you correctly identify as the core question, which is "what should the expectations be."

It seems to me that a lot of our fan base (or at least a lot of the posters here) think that the reasonable expectation is "be Villanova, win national championships, and do it right now, or at least overnight."  IMHO that is totally unrealistic.

In the near term (years 3-5 of Anderson's tenure) my expectation (and has been from the beginning) is "be Providence."  Get to the point where you're a program that has an identity, competes hard against everyone all the time, tends to finish in the 4-6 area in the league, makes an NCAA tournament and an NIT tournament in that time frame.  Then see where we go from there.  I don't see things as being wildly off track with that expectation level.  There's some cause for concern, and the rest of this season could alleviate that or make it worse. 

 

[kranmars]

The most troubling part of this season is the team has  regressed.

I think it would have been fair to expect by year three Anderson would have his system firmly in place, and pinpoint the recruits that best fit his style. 

Instead, it is a hodgepodge of pieces that are being forced and do not work. It’s as if he is introducing the pressing system to both the program and himself for the first time.

Did some of the prices that left fit better, causing Anderson to panic and pick up good players, instead of the right players. Veteran coaches should not do that. 

The options are picking players that fit a system or picking a system that fit the players. Unfortunately, I do not see either one. 

 

[IDRAFT]

Okay 108 pages.

When does the posts lamenting the loss of Demeo start? Obviously, he was the one holding it all together. Be careful out there - I wouldn't want anyone to get injured from the falling sky!

 

[Knight]

Maybe the problem is not the players.  Maybe it’s the system that needs to be tweaked.

 

[monte]

I set the bar at "an improvement over last season and at least a bubble tourney team come March". Maybe we still get there, but time is running out quickly. My biggest problem was the roster turnover(HUGE, by any standard of a team with a returning veteran coach) and the fact that that we do not seem to be building a culture and/or a foundation under CMA. When I think of "culture" I think of a team of kids who completely buy in to the coach and the program, and have an immense amount of pride in the school, amongst other things. Kids who want to be part of building something here. When I think of "foundation" I think of continuity and incremental improvement, amongst other things. CMA has gotten the kids to play hard, or has recruited hard playing kids. Either way he gets credit for that. But unless he can build upon what he accomplishes from season to season, both talent level and wins,  then we will be stuck on the same treadmill  of mediocrity that we've been on for the past 20+ years. Some of you guys are totally fine with that, as long as he runs a clean program, but I ain't. In this day and age of NILs, there is no reason why any good coach can't run a clean program and a successful one at the same time. 

 

[ras]

The most troubling part of this season is the team has  regressed.

I think it would have been fair to expect by year three Anderson would have his system firmly in place, and pinpoint the recruits that best fit his style. 

Instead, it is a hodgepodge of pieces that are being forced and do not work. It’s as if he is introducing the pressing system to both the program and himself for the first time.

Did some of the prices that left fit better, causing Anderson to panic and pick up good players, instead of the right players. Veteran coaches should not do that. 

The options are picking players that fit a system or picking a system that fit the players. Unfortunately, I do not see either one. 
——-
I don’t know why the players transferred last year. But , like Monte said, with that amount of pieces to replace, Anderson had his back against the wall and had to pick up too many players via transfer. Hence, not getting his ideal players. Plus he’s not the greatest recruiter and very honest, not paying recruits. Couple that w our facilities and last 20 year history.


 

 

[JohnnyFan]

To be honest, I do have lingering thoughts about our mass exodus at the end of last year.  It's true CMA gets kids to play hard, but it may not be all peaches and cream playing for him.  I also think there may have been some truth to the transfers feeling there was deference paid to the locals.  

Whatever it was, I hope it doesn't repeat itself.  As we all know, if you're not getting top tier recruits you need upperclassmen and continuity.  
 

 

[IDRAFT]

To further Johnnyfans point I’ve always been more interested (from a where the program is headed perspective) to this off-season than this seasons games. I was never very optimistic about this collection of misfit toys that was thrown together anyway.

What needs to be seen is that this staff
can retain talent or if last years exodus was an aberration. We don’t get to find that out until March. When you get to league play almost every team SJU plays has major contributors who are seniors (this year even fifth year guys.) Our competitors are working with the same transfer rules as SJU.

On the other hand SJU continues the tradition of having zero four year players this year, one that has continued since Amar graduated. And continues to struggle. And unless Julian shocks us that tradition will go on again next year.

When an SJU coach starts breaking that cycle they will have a chance of building a real program. 

 

[monte]

To further Johnnyfans point I’ve always been more interested (from a where the program is headed perspective) to this off-season than this seasons games. I was never very optimistic about this collection of misfit toys that was thrown together anyway.

What needs to be seen is that this staff
can retain talent or if last years exodus was an aberration. We don’t get to find that out until March. When you get to league play almost every team SJU plays has major contributors who are seniors (this year even fifth year guys.) Our competitors are working with the same transfer rules as SJU.

On the other hand SJU continues the tradition of having zero four year players this year, one that has continued since Amar graduated. And continues to struggle. And unless Julian shocks us that tradition will go on again next year.

When an SJU coach starts breaking that cycle they will have a chance of building a real program. 

Good points IDRAFT(and JF). In order to have stability and sustained success, you have to have a decent amount of continuity. Last off season was a most unusual one, but that doesn't excuse the excessive amount of roster turnover. Keeping in mind that we also lost our best player the prior off season. The excuse then was that LJ was "a Mullin recruit", and CMA was looking to "bring in his own kids". That sounded as ridiculous then as it does now.  As JF said, if you cannot recruit top tier talent, then roster continuity is a must. Absent either or both, you cannot have a consistently successful program. Time will tell what CMA's strategy is moving forward. 

 

[beast of the east]

To further Johnnyfans point I’ve always been more interested (from a where the program is headed perspective) to this off-season than this seasons games. I was never very optimistic about this collection of misfit toys that was thrown together anyway.

What needs to be seen is that this staff
can retain talent or if last years exodus was an aberration. We don’t get to find that out until March. When you get to league play almost every team SJU plays has major contributors who are seniors (this year even fifth year guys.) Our competitors are working with the same transfer rules as SJU.

On the other hand SJU continues the tradition of having zero four year players this year, one that has continued since Amar graduated. And continues to struggle. And unless Julian shocks us that tradition will go on again next year.

When an SJU coach starts breaking that cycle they will have a chance of building a real program. 

I once asked GSJ if players consider it an embarrassment to stay at one school for 4 years, or even to play college for that long..  His response was "definitely".

 

[NCJohnnie]

Beast of the East wrote:

I once asked GSJ if players consider it an embarrassment to stay at one school for 4 years, or even to play college for that long..  His response was "definitely".

Beast, schools like Providence, Xavier & Hall are proving that theory questionable at best for all but NBA level talent and those are the very schools we should be able to compete with year after year.
PC & Hall both start 2 very good seniors who've played their entire career there and Xavier starts a 5th year senior and leader (Paul Scruggs) and a junior Freemantle who as far as I know is expected to return next year. Admittedly they all mix in difference making transfers but the continuity is there and achievable. Imho, it's important that Posh & Wusu be those kind of stayers for us.

 

[beast of the east]

Beast of the East wrote:

I once asked GSJ if players consider it an embarrassment to stay at one school for 4 years, or even to play college for that long..  His response was "definitely".

Beast, schools like Providence, Xavier & Hall are proving that theory questionable at best for all but NBA level talent and those are the very schools we should be able to compete with year after year.

I'm aware.   I would imagine that the schools who win more and have a better home game atmosphere are stickier than those who don't.    What most players don't really appreciate is that college basketball for most is their Friday Night Lights, the only chance in their lives to play in large arenas filled with fans, to have most of their games televised, to have their names known across the country.   It's kind of sad that they miss that.

 

[Knight]

I think Mike Cragg’s initiative with making the Providence game a festive event will, if continued, make our program a more desired “nest” than a stopover link in a chain of colleges attended.  This will help retain a larger part of the roster and allow for the desired “continuity.”

 

[IDRAFT]

Beast of the East wrote:

I once asked GSJ if players consider it an embarrassment to stay at one school for 4 years, or even to play college for that long..  His response was "definitely".

Beast, schools like Providence, Xavier & Hall are proving that theory questionable at best for all but NBA level talent and those are the very schools we should be able to compete with year after year.

I'm aware.   I would imagine that the schools who win more and have a better home game atmosphere are stickier than those who don't.    What most players don't really appreciate is that college basketball for most is their Friday Night Lights, the only chance in their lives to play in large arenas filled with fans, to have most of their games televised, to have their names known across the country.   It's kind of sad that they miss that.

As to GSJ's comments I'm not surprised as that staff recruited exactly zero four-year players They also never finished higher than seventh in what was a ten-team conference. I do not consider that a coincidence. My hope is that CMA being an experienced college coach with experienced college assistants understands better. Because unless you can recruit VERY high level recruits every single year you need to retain players. We already knew before this season began that the staff failed in that regard last year. Looking at it optimistically you could argue that some of it was still due to the coaching change as CMA didn't recruit all of the guys who left. I hope that is what it was. But if nine guys leave again - I would have to be a total ostrich to think there isn't a real problem. We will see what happens. 

As to atmosphere, sure it's bad right now but that's a handicap the current staff has to fight through. Also, last year every school in Division One had the exact same atmosphere - fans weren't in the stands. On top of that since SJU is in the Big East every game is televised nationally. Yet nine players left SJU to go to places that are lucky to get their games streaming on ESPN3. What can a "crowd" look like at a Robert Morris game? Or Binghamton? 

Now that can all be filed in "what's done is done" now for sure. It just needs to stop. 







 

 

[fuchsia]

I would like to separate Anderson's value from "40 minutes of hell".  BB professionals that I know have told me that CMA can coach and is a standup person.  What I question is whether "40 minutes of hell" works in the era of the three point specialist, where there is a sport-wide decision based on analytics to avoid the mid-range game and shoot either at the rim or outside.

 

[L J S A]

I would like to separate Anderson's value from "40 minutes of hell".  BB professionals that I know have told me that CMA can coach and is a standup person.  What I question is whether "40 minutes of hell" works in the era of the three point specialist, where there is a sport-wide decision based on analytics to avoid the mid-range game and shoot either at the rim or outside.

I'm wondering about the level of experience the Big East teams have as well. I don't have time to look into it, but I assume it definitely works better against younger teams, and more so for the first time those younger teams are seeing it. (Or if an opponent is missing its starting PG.)

 

[barbs20]

Don’t see him getting fired this year too many easy excuses to use, like big east was deep 6/7 can make tourney plus a ton of new comers made it too much. I do fully expect his seat to be on fire if we’re like this again next year. 

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

I would like to separate Anderson's value from "40 minutes of hell".  BB professionals that I know have told me that CMA can coach and is a standup person.  What I question is whether "40 minutes of hell" works in the era of the three point specialist, where there is a sport-wide decision based on analytics to avoid the mid-range game and shoot either at the rim or outside.

I don't see any problems with the system or the coaching. Of course there are certain things to question like with any coach. My biggest concern with Anderson is recruiting. He just hasn't brought in enough Big East level talented players to get us over the top, especially shooters. If he had a talented roster, his system and coaching would be fine and win a lot.

 

[paultzman]

As noted by many sensible guys, CMA is not getting canned now by the man who hired him, he and team will pull off an upset or two perhaps, but no “Dance” once again and next year’s results likely will be more of same.

I have trouble envisioning this staff landing needle moving transfers and/or recruits post season. We also seem at times to be overly optimistic re development of our young guys like Stanley, Pinzon to have a big second year impact.

All in all, my ample gut says Cragg will by end of next season be at the crossroad re Mike’s tenure. That does not preclude staying course for a year five, but he seems an astute, outcomes oriented guy capable of making tough decisions. Although, very disappointed by this season, I choose the less impulsive course and trust Cragg will do the right thing in a time frame he deems appropriate. What choice do I have anyway?

 

[fordham96]

Might have to revise your expectations games again since a game you "expected" them to win (home against PC) they just lost.

lawmanfan post=454014
Thus far in terms of record I would have expected to be either one or two games ahead of where we are.  I would have expected to win the Pitt game and maybe have a shot at the Indiana game.  But realistically we are "the Pitt game" away from where I would have figured we would be.  I certainly had little expectation of winning at Providence, at Nova, or at U Conn.  I figured we'd split with the Hall (though not quite the way it happened).

It obviously remains to be seen what happens from here on out. We need to split with Marquette (assuming we get two games with them), Butler and Xavier, win the rematches (home games) with Providence, Nova, Creighton and UConn, and complete the sweeps of Georgetown and DePaul.  If we pick up an extra game to make up for Pitt loss, that would be awesome.  If we lose an extra game, it doesn't put a stake in our heart (depending which game it is).

To me, Coach Anderson comes with some pluses and minuses, as with any coach.  When the team wins, you see the pluses and when they lose you see the minuses.  The pluses are that his teams are committed to defense, they play hard, they seem to get better as the season goes on, they tend to dictate the pace, and when they get the game on their terms they make it very difficult for most opponents.  The minuses are that the crunch-time tactics generally amount to "get the ball to one of these two guys and they'll get a look" and that what he is looking for in player character and commitment may exclude some 4 star or 5 star recruits from consideration.

I remain of the opinion that this skill set can consistently get SJU to the middle of the pack in the Big East, despite the structural disadvantages that the program has.  It's an open question what happens from there - if the school can improve its facilities and being consistently competitive (and the playing style) attracts more players, then we could take another step.

To me this is still a work in progress, and I would think our fan base (having lived through Norm Roberts and Chris Mullin) would be smarter than to say "hey let's trade in this totally professional (if not perfect) coach who's done nothing but win for 20 years for this guy who hasn't done anything yet but I hear he's a hot commodity."  IMO there is not insignificant value in having stability and professionalism which the program has woefully lacked for 25 years now.  It may not be sexy and it may not get you the immediate results you want, but it is a much-needed commodity at St John's.