Anderson - is he really the guy ?

[SJU Double Alumn]

Proud Alumn- again, my intention was not to turn this into a Mullin vs CMA debate. I was just stating a fact that Mullin recruited much better than CMA, at least on paper (any recruiting website), and was wondering whether that had anything to do with Mullin supporters pulling donations. A few posters helped answer my question.

One final tidbit, in Quad 1 games:
Mullin Year 4: 5-7 (you conveniently left this out when discussing his record)
CMA Year 3: 0-6

So in other words CMA would need to go 5-1 in Quad 1 games just to match Mullin's team that "wasn't even in the real Tournament". If you think not making the "real" Tournament was bad, just wait until you see what it's like to not make the NIT.

Again, Mullin was a far better recruiter both on paper and in actual results, but my intention was to bring up the former rather than the latter.

You have a strange view on what is a fact and what is an opinion.
What was Anderson's record in Quad 1 games last season?
When did Mullin ever have a winning BE conference record? He didn't.
Sorry, but outside of Ponds, Mullin wasn't bringing in any better talent than Anderson has.

 

[Lambsbball]

Chris Mullin and Mitch Richmond are in the Hall of Fame. That's a big advantage in recruiting.

Mike Anderson brings 20 years of head coaching experience. Plus another 15 years as an assistant. He knows the game really well. It's difficult to bring transfers into Mike's program. There's a big adjustment. Aaron Wheeler is settling in really well. Other transfers are still struggling.

I still believe in Anderson's program. He's having a lot of trouble building a team this season. The break for Covid disrupted all the preseason momentum. Honestly I'm not sure there's enough time to get all the transfers up to speed. 

 

[Knight]

As I remember, SJU’s Alums have not been very generous over the years.  

 

[Knight]

Per Zach—Down: Mike AndersonAnderson overachieved in his first two seasons in Queens, getting the most out of underwhelming rosters. He was the Big East Coach of the Year last season after a fourth-place finish. This winter, he has significantly underachieved despite the return of junior star Julian Champagnie. Expected to be an NCAA Tournament team, St. John’s doesn’t even have an NIT résumé. It is 0-6 in Quad 1 games. Attendance is down and frustration is up. Anderson’s record of never having a losing year in 19 seasons as a head coach is in jeopardy.
 

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

I had a conversation with Fr. Shanley over the summer at the golf outing. When he was running Providence, 11% of alumni were making contributions to the school. At SJU its 1%. How they don't have their most visible and perhaps wealthiest alumni in the fold is beyond me. I don't know what's happened behind the scenes, but with a new president I would hope someone has reached out to him to see what he wants for his money. 

I honestly feel like we're more of a A10 mid major right now. It seems like every time something good is poised to happen, we lose or footing. 

I don't know how much you were both drinking, or if you misheard, but our giving rating is about 4% to my knowledge.    Still not good, but not 1%

The University has done a poor job with alumni outreach. I helped run an alumni association for one of the schools a few years ago and we started some events and activities and fund raising, but it fell apart because the school gave us practically zero support. They didn't seem to understand that we were all volunteers doing this outside of our day jobs and that we couldn't by ourselves staff and run big events. 
Hopefully Shanley and Cragg have through experience better ways to get the donations needed to improve the facilities. Doing that should make a big difference.

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

Per Zach—Down: Mike AndersonAnderson overachieved in his first two seasons in Queens, getting the most out of underwhelming rosters. He was the Big East Coach of the Year last season after a fourth-place finish. This winter, he has significantly underachieved despite the return of junior star Julian Champagnie. Expected to be an NCAA Tournament team, St. John’s doesn’t even have an NIT résumé. It is 0-6 in Quad 1 games. Attendance is down and frustration is up. Anderson’s record of never having a losing year in 19 seasons as a head coach is in jeopardy.

 

In other news, Zach reads this forum ...

 

[Redmen88]

Chris Mullin and Mitch Richmond are in the Hall of Fame. That's a big advantage in recruiting.

Mike Anderson brings 20 years of head coaching experience. Plus another 15 years as an assistant. He knows the game really well. It's difficult to bring transfers into Mike's program. There's a big adjustment. Aaron Wheeler is settling in really well. Other transfers are still struggling.

I still believe in Anderson's program. He's having a lot of trouble building a team this season. The break for Covid disrupted all the preseason momentum. Honestly I'm not sure there's enough time to get all the transfers up to speed. 

Obviously SJ is not an attractive place to play.  Be it the location or lack of success over the last 20 years.  It is even more difficult to attract and keep good players with the current transfer rule.  Because of all this, I think the only chance we have for success is a big name coach.  We need to make a big splash or we will remain irrelevant.  We have not won a tournament game or even played in a meaningful BE tournament game in 20 years.  We need to go all in or continue to die this long painful basketball death.  
 

 

[TonyinFairfield]

Per Zach—Down: Mike AndersonAnderson overachieved in his first two seasons in Queens, getting the most out of underwhelming rosters. He was the Big East Coach of the Year last season after a fourth-place finish. This winter, he has significantly underachieved despite the return of junior star Julian Champagnie. Expected to be an NCAA Tournament team, St. John’s doesn’t even have an NIT résumé. It is 0-6 in Quad 1 games. Attendance is down and frustration is up. Anderson’s record of never having a losing year in 19 seasons as a head coach is in jeopardy.


 

In other news, Zach reads this forum ...

Bingo! You win the internet today!

 

[ADORAZ]

Proud Alumn- again, my intention was not to turn this into a Mullin vs CMA debate. I was just stating a fact that Mullin recruited much better than CMA, at least on paper (any recruiting website), and was wondering whether that had anything to do with Mullin supporters pulling donations. A few posters helped answer my question.

One final tidbit, in Quad 1 games:
Mullin Year 4: 5-7 (you conveniently left this out when discussing his record)
CMA Year 3: 0-6

So in other words CMA would need to go 5-1 in Quad 1 games just to match Mullin's team that "wasn't even in the real Tournament". If you think not making the "real" Tournament was bad, just wait until you see what it's like to not make the NIT.

Again, Mullin was a far better recruiter both on paper and in actual results, but my intention was to bring up the former rather than the latter.

You have a strange view on what is a fact and what is an opinion.
What was Anderson's record in Quad 1 games last season?
When did Mullin ever have a winning BE conference record? He didn't.
Sorry, but outside of Ponds, Mullin wasn't bringing in any better talent than Anderson has.

Not sure how you're not getting this... it is absolutely a fact that Mullin out-recruited CMA based on recruiting rankings from any recruiting site. It is more so an opinion as to whether those rankings were accurate at the time and whether recruits ended up being better once they played college basketball, but the 247 composite rankings I cited are a fact and not an opinion. Once again, my point was merely to ask if the downtick in recruiting rankings had anything to do with donations.

To answer your question, CMA was 2-6 in Quad 1 games last year, which brings him to 2-12 Quad 1 over the past two years. That's less than half as many Quad 1 wins as Mullin had during his final year. Don't think that was the answer you were looking for... but it's a fact.

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

 

You have a strange view on what is a fact and what is an opinion.
What was Anderson's record in Quad 1 games last season?
When did Mullin ever have a winning BE conference record? He didn't.
Sorry, but outside of Ponds, Mullin wasn't bringing in any better talent than Anderson has.

Not sure how you're not getting this... it is absolutely a fact that Mullin out-recruited CMA based on recruiting rankings from any recruiting site. It is more so an opinion as to whether those rankings were accurate at the time and whether recruits ended up being better once they played college basketball, but the 247 composite rankings are a fact and not an opinion. Once again, my point was merely to ask if the downtick in recruiting rankings had anything to do with donations.

To answer your question, CMA was 2-6 in Quad 1 games last year, which brings him to 2-12 Quad 1 over the past two years. That's less than half as many Quad 1 wins as Mullin had during his final year. Don't think that was the answer you were looking for... but it's a fact.

Better 247 rankings is not better recruiting. Freudenberg, Mussini and Yakwe will give a better 247 score than Champagnie, Posh and Wusu, but obviously I would rather recruit the latter. You are using 247 ratings to form your opinion, which I believe is faulty and is evident by the performance on the court.

 

[ADORAZ]

 

You have a strange view on what is a fact and what is an opinion.
What was Anderson's record in Quad 1 games last season?
When did Mullin ever have a winning BE conference record? He didn't.
Sorry, but outside of Ponds, Mullin wasn't bringing in any better talent than Anderson has.

Not sure how you're not getting this... it is absolutely a fact that Mullin out-recruited CMA based on recruiting rankings from any recruiting site. It is more so an opinion as to whether those rankings were accurate at the time and whether recruits ended up being better once they played college basketball, but the 247 composite rankings are a fact and not an opinion. Once again, my point was merely to ask if the downtick in recruiting rankings had anything to do with donations.

To answer your question, CMA was 2-6 in Quad 1 games last year, which brings him to 2-12 Quad 1 over the past two years. That's less than half as many Quad 1 wins as Mullin had during his final year. Don't think that was the answer you were looking for... but it's a fact.

Better 247 rankings is not better recruiting. Freudenberg, Mussini and Yakwe will give a better 247 score than Champagnie, Posh and Wusu, but obviously I would rather recruit the latter. You are using 247 ratings to form your opinion, which I believe is faulty and is evident by the performance on the court.

Yeah, see that's an opinion. One I would disagree with based on how Mullin vs CMA teams have performed (not sure how you can defend a 2-12 Quad 1 record during CMA's most recent 2 seasons), but 247 composite rankings are the best/most comprehensive available data so that's what I cited. I have always said CMA did an excellent job recruiting Champ, who clearly was a massive outlier in recruiting rankings. The problem is that was a one time thing thus far and basketball is a team sport. 

Once again, my point was not to compare results (which I'd take Mullin results), but rather to ask if the downtick in recruiting rankings had anything to do with donations. I don't believe that CMA is willingly taking 3 stars, but rather believe he's unable to get 4 stars for whatever reason here (he got plenty of 4 stars at Arkansas). If this is some master plan to take mostly 3 stars and he's a recruiting guru who knows more than the scouts do then it certainly hasn't shown up in actual results with his #109 NET, 0 NIT/NCAA appearances, and dreadful record against Quad 1 teams.

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

 

You have a strange view on what is a fact and what is an opinion.
What was Anderson's record in Quad 1 games last season?
When did Mullin ever have a winning BE conference record? He didn't.
Sorry, but outside of Ponds, Mullin wasn't bringing in any better talent than Anderson has.

Not sure how you're not getting this... it is absolutely a fact that Mullin out-recruited CMA based on recruiting rankings from any recruiting site. It is more so an opinion as to whether those rankings were accurate at the time and whether recruits ended up being better once they played college basketball, but the 247 composite rankings are a fact and not an opinion. Once again, my point was merely to ask if the downtick in recruiting rankings had anything to do with donations.

To answer your question, CMA was 2-6 in Quad 1 games last year, which brings him to 2-12 Quad 1 over the past two years. That's less than half as many Quad 1 wins as Mullin had during his final year. Don't think that was the answer you were looking for... but it's a fact.

Better 247 rankings is not better recruiting. Freudenberg, Mussini and Yakwe will give a better 247 score than Champagnie, Posh and Wusu, but obviously I would rather recruit the latter. You are using 247 ratings to form your opinion, which I believe is faulty and is evident by the performance on the court.

Yeah, see that's an opinion. One I would disagree with based on how Mullin vs CMA teams have performed (not sure how you can defend a 2-12 Quad 1 record during CMA's most recent 2 seasons), but 247 composite rankings are the best/most comprehensive available data so that's what I cited. I have always said CMA did an excellent job recruiting Champ, who clearly was a massive outlier in recruiting rankings. The problem is that was a one time thing thus far and basketball is a team sport. 

Once again, my point was not to compare results (which I'd take Mullin results), but rather to ask if the downtick in recruiting rankings had anything to do with donations. I don't believe that CMA is willingly taking 3 stars, but rather believe he's unable to get 4 stars for whatever reason here (he got plenty of 4 stars at Arkansas). If this is some master plan to take mostly 3 stars and he's a recruiting guru who knows more than the scouts do then it certainly hasn't shown up in actual results with his #109 NET, 0 NIT/NCAA appearances, and dreadful record against Quad 1 teams.

I don’t know how you defend Mullin never having a BE conference winning record. 

Storr is a 4 star recruit. 

 

[Windy City Johnny Fan]

I know it is only natural to compare coaches, but at the end of the day it's kind of a pointless exercise.

Lavin seems to be a great guy, but he didn't win a tournament game here and recruiting had begun to go downhill.  The lack of depth his last team had was criminal - you lose one big man and have to start Sir Dom at center in a tournament game.  Not great.  Meanwhile, 7 years later he is still on TV when I'm sure he could have gotten any number of HC jobs if that's what he wanted - what does that tell you.

Mullin is a legend and nothing will ever change that.  He could not win a tournament game either, and worse, it was fairly obvious that he had come to the realization that he was not interested in the 24 hour 365 days a year demands that this job requires.

And now Mike Anderson - brings a lot of good things to the table, but at the end of the day this is a results business.  We are not winning, we are not recruiting, and his system is rightfully in question.  We'll see where the rest of the season goes and then can evaluate (whether we look to make a move or not).  But to evaluate him on a comparative basis to the last two guys doesn't make much sense to me as those were both situations where at the time, it made complete sense to move on.  Nothing changes that in hindsight.

 

[ras]

Chris Mullin and Mitch Richmond are in the Hall of Fame. That's a big advantage in recruiting.

Mike Anderson brings 20 years of head coaching experience. Plus another 15 years as an assistant. He knows the game really well. It's difficult to bring transfers into Mike's program. There's a big adjustment. Aaron Wheeler is settling in really well. Other transfers are still struggling.

I still believe in Anderson's program. He's having a lot of trouble building a team this season. The break for Covid disrupted all the preseason momentum. Honestly I'm not sure there's enough time to get all the transfers up to speed. 

Obviously SJ is not an attractive place to play.  Be it the location or lack of success over the last 20 years.  It is even more difficult to attract and keep good players with the current transfer rule.  Because of all this, I think the only chance we have for success is a big name coach.  We need to make a big splash or we will remain irrelevant.  We have not won a tournament game or even played in a meaningful BE tournament game in 20 years.  We need to go all in or continue to die this long painful basketball death.  
------
The catch 22 is all the above make it hard to attract a good coach. Dont forget the poor facilities  and attendance also.


 

 

[Bayside 1992]

He said it was 1%. And we weren't drinking. 

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

I know it is only natural to compare coaches, but at the end of the day it's kind of a pointless exercise.

Lavin seems to be a great guy, but he didn't win a tournament game here and recruiting had begun to go downhill.  The lack of depth his last team had was criminal - you lose one big man and have to start Sir Dom at center in a tournament game.  Not great.  Meanwhile, 7 years later he is still on TV when I'm sure he could have gotten any number of HC jobs if that's what he wanted - what does that tell you.

Mullin is a legend and nothing will ever change that.  He could not win a tournament game either, and worse, it was fairly obvious that he had come to the realization that he was not interested in the 24 hour 365 days a year demands that this job requires.

And now Mike Anderson - brings a lot of good things to the table, but at the end of the day this is a results business.  We are not winning, we are not recruiting, and his system is rightfully in question.  We'll see where the rest of the season goes and then can evaluate (whether we look to make a move or not).  But to evaluate him on a comparative basis to the last two guys doesn't make much sense to me as those were both situations where at the time, it made complete sense to move on.  Nothing changes that in hindsight.

Lavin had three good players committed who de-committed after he was fired. He also did the recruiting of Lovett and Mussini. He was also hampered in recruiting by the public uncertainty as to whether he would have been fired. I thought the University made a mistake not giving Lavin a solid two-year commitment instead of firing him. He had recruiting ability, had a good staff, had some success on the court (albeit with big ups and downs), and represented the school well.

 

[monte]

Man, the excuses and lame defenses for failure being used in this thread are not only absurd, they're not based in fact. The only fact I'll give you guys is that our facilities aren't every good, yet that hasn't stopped any other coach from recruiting well here. Coaching novices ran circles around CMA with the same facilities.  I love the "location" excuse, because Wisconsin in the middle of winter is an ideal location for Shaka Smart to recruit to?  It's all nonsense and spin. The best thing about the day CMA departs will be that he takes his groupies with him. 

 

[ADORAZ]

 

You have a strange view on what is a fact and what is an opinion.
What was Anderson's record in Quad 1 games last season?
When did Mullin ever have a winning BE conference record? He didn't.
Sorry, but outside of Ponds, Mullin wasn't bringing in any better talent than Anderson has.

Not sure how you're not getting this... it is absolutely a fact that Mullin out-recruited CMA based on recruiting rankings from any recruiting site. It is more so an opinion as to whether those rankings were accurate at the time and whether recruits ended up being better once they played college basketball, but the 247 composite rankings are a fact and not an opinion. Once again, my point was merely to ask if the downtick in recruiting rankings had anything to do with donations.

To answer your question, CMA was 2-6 in Quad 1 games last year, which brings him to 2-12 Quad 1 over the past two years. That's less than half as many Quad 1 wins as Mullin had during his final year. Don't think that was the answer you were looking for... but it's a fact.

Better 247 rankings is not better recruiting. Freudenberg, Mussini and Yakwe will give a better 247 score than Champagnie, Posh and Wusu, but obviously I would rather recruit the latter. You are using 247 ratings to form your opinion, which I believe is faulty and is evident by the performance on the court.

Yeah, see that's an opinion. One I would disagree with based on how Mullin vs CMA teams have performed (not sure how you can defend a 2-12 Quad 1 record during CMA's most recent 2 seasons), but 247 composite rankings are the best/most comprehensive available data so that's what I cited. I have always said CMA did an excellent job recruiting Champ, who clearly was a massive outlier in recruiting rankings. The problem is that was a one time thing thus far and basketball is a team sport. 

Once again, my point was not to compare results (which I'd take Mullin results), but rather to ask if the downtick in recruiting rankings had anything to do with donations. I don't believe that CMA is willingly taking 3 stars, but rather believe he's unable to get 4 stars for whatever reason here (he got plenty of 4 stars at Arkansas). If this is some master plan to take mostly 3 stars and he's a recruiting guru who knows more than the scouts do then it certainly hasn't shown up in actual results with his #109 NET, 0 NIT/NCAA appearances, and dreadful record against Quad 1 teams.

I don’t know how you defend Mullin never having a BE conference winning record. 

Storr is a 4 star recruit. 

Lol I am not defending Mullin and was in favor of his firing. What do you think that says about my opinion on CMA thus far?

Yes, Storr is a 4 star recruit and should be a great addition. Too bad the class overall is still ranked #61 and #8 in the Big East since you need more than one great player to have a great class. But hey, it's progress I guess from this year where it was #63 and #9 in the Big East. Surely if we lose our best player and bring in the #61 class next year we'll improve.

 

[salty dog]

I know it is only natural to compare coaches, but at the end of the day it's kind of a pointless exercise.

Lavin seems to be a great guy, but he didn't win a tournament game here and recruiting had begun to go downhill.  The lack of depth his last team had was criminal - you lose one big man and have to start Sir Dom at center in a tournament game.  Not great.  Meanwhile, 7 years later he is still on TV when I'm sure he could have gotten any number of HC jobs if that's what he wanted - what does that tell you.

Mullin is a legend and nothing will ever change that.  He could not win a tournament game either, and worse, it was fairly obvious that he had come to the realization that he was not interested in the 24 hour 365 days a year demands that this job requires.

And now Mike Anderson - brings a lot of good things to the table, but at the end of the day this is a results business.  We are not winning, we are not recruiting, and his system is rightfully in question.  We'll see where the rest of the season goes and then can evaluate (whether we look to make a move or not).  But to evaluate him on a comparative basis to the last two guys doesn't make much sense to me as those were both situations where at the time, it made complete sense to move on.  Nothing changes that in hindsight.

Lavin had three good players committed who de-committed after he was fired. He also did the recruiting of Lovett and Mussini. He was also hampered in recruiting by the public uncertainty as to whether he would have been fired. I thought the University made a mistake not giving Lavin a solid two-year commitment instead of firing him. He had recruiting ability, had a good staff, had some success on the court (albeit with big ups and downs), and represented the school well.


in hindsight a huge mistake and it will be hard to live down ‘Mullin’s 1 and 17 Big East record Oh the Pain
 

 

[redmannorth]

 

Lavin had three good players committed who de-committed after he was fired. He also did the recruiting of Lovett and Mussini. He was also hampered in recruiting by the public uncertainty as to whether he would have been fired. I thought the University made a mistake not giving Lavin a solid two-year commitment instead of firing him. He had recruiting ability, had a good staff, had some success on the court (albeit with big ups and downs), and represented the school well.

The Revisionist history I am reading is so far from reality it is frightening.
Lavin had no one committed, no one that would have played  the following season. 
The kid from Louisiana was already publicly wavering and the kid who wound up at Auburn was ineligible.
The recruiting uncertainty came out very late and did not hinder the November Class where 80% of the top recruits sign. 
You thought they made a mistake  great, but he never got another bball job because everyone knew he was done as a coach.
He had lost all recruiting ability after his second class, he struck out for three years thereafter. His staff was busy making porno films lest you forget, signing recruits with doctored transcripts in the parking lot in the middle of the night, having players beating the crap out of one another in the shower room, ineligible for the biggest game of their life as they had no respect for the staff or their was a lack of institutional control, you can take your pick which one it was.
Did he have some big success year 1 with Norm's players yes he did. I will certainly agree to that and he was also very involved in the recruiting of Mussini and Lovett. 
Represented the school well, what a subjective statement. 
I could go on but won't.